Wreck diving Magazine

[Leigh Bishop]

Keen wreck divers amongst us will be glad to here of a new magazine just out called 'Wreck Diver' just wrecks and of course diving them, you will find no pretty fish no cave diving and no equipment reviews. With 'Beyond the Blue' as well now into issue 2 we can look forward to reading some great wreck stories. I've done a small write up on the premier issue of wreck diver with a picture on the home page of deepimage www.deepimage.co.uk
Regards
Leigh Bishop

[AC]

Hi Leigh,

I registered via your website to receive the first issue of Beyond The Blue and yet have received nothing.

Any news?

Regards
AC

Keen wreck divers amongst us will be glad to here of a new magazine just out called 'Wreck Diver' just wrecks and of course diving them, you will find no pretty fish no cave diving and no equipment reviews. With 'Beyond the Blue' as well now into issue 2 we can look forward to reading some great wreck stories. I've done a small write up on the premier issue of wreck diver with a picture on the home page of deepimage www.deepimage.co.uk
Regards
Leigh Bishop

[Vic]

> I registered via your website to receive the first issue of
> Beyond The Blue

...As did a number of us.

> and yet have received nothing.

...As have a number of us.

I *really* hope this mag doesn't have the same approach to customer communication that plagued 990...

Vic.

[Dave Leigh]

> I registered via your website to receive the first issue of
> Beyond The Blue

...As did a number of us.

> and yet have received nothing.

...As have a number of us.

I *really* hope this mag doesn't have the same approach to customer communication that plagued 990...

Can someone explain why this is even on the BSAC forum? Surely someone plugging their magazine or their articles in commercial publications is not in the spirit of what this forum is for.

Maybe the webmaster should delete the post?


Vic.

[terryh]

Can someone explain why this is even on the BSAC forum? Surely someone plugging their magazine or their articles in commercial publications is not in the spirit of what this forum is for.

Maybe the webmaster should delete the post?


Err Why & Why!

Many of us are multi-agency and dont have any qualms about
reccommending or spouting what's best for divers, regardless
of agency. I dont read the mag, but dont see why BSAC members
shouldnt spout about it on here.

BSAC are (mostly) not insular and fora like this should (as
clubs now do) accept any agencies, divers, magazines even if
not directly related to BSAC buisness.

Remember an open welcoming approach (even if its not strictly
BSAC), will gain more support, friends and hopefully new
members than a closed shop.

TerryH

[Dave Leigh]

:=
:=Can someone explain why this is even on the BSAC forum? Surely someone plugging their magazine or their articles in commercial publications is not in the spirit of what this forum is for.
:=
:=Maybe the webmaster should delete the post?
:=

Err Why & Why!

I asked the question because I didn't think commercial posts are allowed here. So maybe they are?

Many of us are multi-agency

As I am

and dont have any qualms about
reccommending or spouting what's best for divers, regardless
of agency.

Is this post best for divers? Its certainly not promoting any agency that I'm aware of. Seems like a case of self-aggrandiesment on behalf of Mr Bishop and the magazines in question.

I dont read the mag, but dont see why BSAC members
shouldnt spout about it on here.

So are you saying that it's OK for BSAC members should be allowed to plug any commercial interest on this forum? Assuming the Leigh Bishop is a BSAC member.


BSAC are (mostly) not insular and fora like this should (as
clubs now do) accept any agencies, divers, magazines even if
not directly related to BSAC buisness.

Remember an open welcoming approach (even if its not strictly
BSAC), will gain more support, friends and hopefully new
members than a closed shop.

I agree that we should be welcoming and multi-agency. I just don't agree that people should be trying to advance their own commercial interests through these forums.

Dave


TerryH

[terryh]

I agree that we should be welcoming and multi-agency. I just don't agree that people should be trying to advance their own commercial interests through these forums.


Sorry Dave, you posted under Vic which gave the impression (to
me anyway) that you were anti anything not BSAC rather than
anti-commercial posts.

If you had replied to the original postee I wouldnt have
awnsered, as in that you may well have a point.

Please accept my apologies.

TerryH

[Dave Leigh]

And my apologies for confusing the thread!

Dave


:=I agree that we should be welcoming and multi-agency. I just don't agree that people should be trying to advance their own commercial interests through these forums.
:=

Sorry Dave, you posted under Vic which gave the impression (to
me anyway) that you were anti anything not BSAC rather than
anti-commercial posts.

If you had replied to the original postee I wouldnt have
awnsered, as in that you may well have a point.

Please accept my apologies.

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Can someone explain why this is even on the BSAC forum? Surely someone plugging their magazine or their articles in commercial publications is not in the spirit of what this forum is for.

Maybe the webmaster should delete the post?

True, and it?s something that we don?t encourage, but we like to use a little bit of flexibility and tolerance. On balance I felt that BSAC (and other) divers would be interested in a new magazine, especially as it is born out of the well regarded 9-90 magazine (yup ? they had money off me as well and no magazine!). So the attitude I took this time around was ?give the guy a break?, it?s a brand new small scale venture and hardly a big company pushing their already established wares!

Keith L
Forum Moderator

[Dave Leigh]

:=Can someone explain why this is even on the BSAC forum? Surely someone plugging their magazine or their articles in commercial publications is not in the spirit of what this forum is for.
:=
:=Maybe the webmaster should delete the post?

True, and it?s something that we don?t encourage, but we like to use a little bit of flexibility and tolerance. On balance I felt that BSAC (and other) divers would be interested in a new magazine, especially as it is born out of the well regarded 9-90 magazine (yup ? they had money off me as well and no magazine!). So the attitude I took this time around was ?give the guy a break?, it?s a brand new small scale venture and hardly a big company pushing their already established wares!

Great! So we can our small scale ventures then (or just the ones the you approve of Keith)?

Dave


Keith L
Forum Moderator

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Great! So we can our small scale ventures then (or just the ones the you approve of Keith)?

I will make a judgement call as and when things occur, that is what moderating a forum is all about. Yes, it does come down to my personal view of what is/is not acceptable use of the forums (from a club point of view, NOT from personal preference), I am always willing to publicly justify any decision and I am answerable to Council and to the membership for any such decision. If people are not happy with that then they can elect somebody else to do this thankless task.

Re advertising : I am damned if I do and damned if I don?t. If I say ?no advertising? then people whinge at me ?commercial post!? if anybody dares to even mention that they may have any commercial interest at all with the diving trade. If I say ?OK, allow advertising? then the forum fills up with unwanted commercial SPAM. Your solution is?

So the route I have taken is to judge each case on its merits ? some I let go, some I may have a quiet word with the poster if I think they are taking the Mickey, some I just delete as blatant commercial SPAM. That approach has served us well over the years IMHO. Until somebody comes up with a better approach, or better still somebody else to do it, then that the way that these forums will continue working.

Keith L

[terryh]

So the route I have taken is to judge each case on its merits ? some I let go, some I may have a quiet word with the poster if I think they are taking the Mickey, some I just delete as blatant commercial SPAM. That approach has served us well over the years IMHO. Until somebody comes up with a better approach, or better still somebody else to do it, then that the way that these forums will continue working.


Howdy Keith.

Easy solution, less work for you and no chance of getting
spammed. Why not have a commercial forum - linked from the BSAC
website. Dive schools, shops, boat skippers, holidays etc. We
all use them, so what is the big deal about a pro posting in
one specific place?

If you get a com post then you dont then have to think about
should you shouldnt you let it go, just repost into the
commercial forum pages.

Dont want to look? Then dont go there. Very easy solution IMO.

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Howdy Keith.

Easy solution, less work for you and no chance of getting
spammed. Why not have a commercial forum - linked from the BSAC
website. Dive schools, shops, boat skippers, holidays etc. We
all use them, so what is the big deal about a pro posting in
one specific place?

If you get a com post then you dont then have to think about
should you shouldnt you let it go, just repost into the
commercial forum pages.

Dont want to look? Then dont go there. Very easy solution IMO.

Hi Terry

In practice the current "solution" doesn't cause me any hassle at all, I've spent more time replying to this sub thread than I have dealing with SPAM for many months.

I prefer to leave the commercial area as the rest of the web, I don't see why members money should be used to provide a such a feature - if they want to advertise then they can pay for it. If you say "no advertising" here then you have to define advertising, that means different things to different people, it will cause endless debates as to just what is an advert!

So on balance I feel that it's best as it is, it is impossible to define and write rules for every conceivable situation, in the end it will come down to a judgement call - which is exactly where we came in... :-)

Cheers

Keith L

[Dave Leigh]

Terry's suggestion is exactly what I would propose. It's common on other non-profit making forums.


So on balance I feel that it's best as it is, it is impossible to define and write rules for every conceivable situation, in the end it will come down to a judgement call

In which case this forum is more like Keith's personal feifdom is it not? Why should you be better at making the judgment than myself, for example? I thought post crossed the line and was a bit of a shameless plug.

Dave


Cheers

Keith L

[Andy Wade]

Terry's suggestion is exactly what I would propose. It's common on other non-profit making forums.

:=
:=So on balance I feel that it's best as it is, it is impossible to define and write rules for every conceivable situation, in the end it will come down to a judgement call

In which case this forum is more like Keith's personal feifdom is it not? Why should you be better at making the judgment than myself, for example? I thought post crossed the line and was a bit of a shameless plug.


Do you want the job then?

Careful Dave, you might get 'volunteered' for it.

Keith does a marvellous job with these fora, and gets little thanks for it as it is. I expect he'd love to pass on the job to someone so keen....
;-)

[PeteM]

:=In which case this forum is more like Keith's personal feifdom is it not? Why should you be better at making the judgment than myself, for example? I thought post crossed the line and was a bit of a shameless plug.


Do you want the job then?

Yep, if you don't like the calls then take over.

We need managers as you will know if you've ever tried to manage things totally by committee. Keiths the current manager, you don't like his descisions then by all means tell him (he will listen) but if you still don't like it the elections are this year I believe.


Careful Dave, you might get 'volunteered' for it.

Keith does a marvellous job with these fora, and gets little thanks for it as it is. I expect he'd love to pass on the job to someone so keen....
;-)

What ever Keith does someone will slag him off, I too think he generally does a very good job.

I also think this single, on topic, commercial post from someone like Leigh is no big deal, its not as if he is flooding us with spam after all.

Pete

[Dave Leigh]

:=Terry's suggestion is exactly what I would propose. It's common on other non-profit making forums.
:=
:=:=
:=:=So on balance I feel that it's best as it is, it is impossible to define and write rules for every conceivable situation, in the end it will come down to a judgement call
:=
:=In which case this forum is more like Keith's personal feifdom is it not? Why should you be better at making the judgment than myself, for example? I thought post crossed the line and was a bit of a shameless plug.


Do you want the job then?

I'm suggesting that perhaps that's a vacancy that doesn't require filling. Just set up a shameless plug's section and away ya go!


Careful Dave, you might get 'volunteered' for it.

Keith does a marvellous job with these fora, and gets little thanks for it as it is. I expect he'd love to pass on the job to someone so keen....
;-)

[Andy Wade]

:=:=Terry's suggestion is exactly what I would propose. It's common on other non-profit making forums.
:=:=
:=:=:=
:=:=:=So on balance I feel that it's best as it is, it is impossible to define and write rules for every conceivable situation, in the end it will come down to a judgement call
:=:=
:=:=In which case this forum is more like Keith's personal feifdom is it not? Why should you be better at making the judgment than myself, for example? I thought post crossed the line and was a bit of a shameless plug.
:=
:=
:=Do you want the job then?

I'm suggesting that perhaps that's a vacancy that doesn't require filling. Just set up a shameless plug's section and away ya go!

Keith wouldn't allow it to get out of hand anyway.
And it seems that it may have backfired a bit anyway doesn't it?
Leigh has posted about the new magazine, had 2 enquiries on the forum about communication problems, and hasn't answered them... at least not here anyway.
That's not a very good advert for the new magazine.

Wait a minute, you're not annoyed that he's using your surname as his Christian name are you?
;-)

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

In which case this forum is more like Keith's personal feifdom is it not? Why should you be better at making the judgment than myself, for example? I thought post crossed the line and was a bit of a shameless plug.

No Dave, it is the MEMBERS personal feifdom and all that I do is manage it on their behalf. I have never claimed that my judgement is better of worse than anybody elses, but it is =A= judgement (they do have to be made, even with rules who judges what is within/outside of the rules?), I am open about it, I am accountable.

I do respect your opinion, it has been noted.

Regards

Keith L

[Vic]

> In which case this forum is more like Keith's personal feifdom

If that were the case, Keith would be removing posts every time I tell him he's wrong. As far as I can remember that's never happened (although I have had the occasional "STFU" email ;-)

I often disagree vehemently with Keith's point of view, but I cannot fault his moderation of these groups. Well done, sir.

Vic.

[terryh]

I'm not sure you get what I mean Keith.

If advertising is bad then why isnt Dive, more like BSAC talk!!!

Skippers regularly have the odd space on boats. Sometimes they
fill them, sometimes not. If I as a pro-skipper come on here
and say I have 2x spaces this weekend is that spamming?

What if its a new boat/operation/dive charter is that spamming
when most of us would really like to hear about it?

Simlarly I'm a holiday company that has two spaces on a
liveabord leaving tommorrow and am prepared to reduce the
price by 50%. Is that spamming if I put it here?
Ignoring the BSAC-Hayes & Jarvis tie-up there ARE other holiday
companys offering some stunning late deals out there.

What of kit offers? Insurance deals? Cheap Red Sea flights.
Even late spaces on pro-BSAC dive courses etc.

The list goes on and on.

All that's neccessary is a pro-forum. If you are anything
commercial then you can post there. If it "wanders" over to
the non-profit side then simply stick it back over again.
If they keep doing it ban them.

There really is no need to "decide" on the merits, as you now
have a place for all this info.

One very advantagous point (for firms) is that they have a
targeted audience. Result (for us) = more competition and
greater bargains for us all.

TerryH

[Dave Leigh]

Wait a minute, you're not annoyed that he's using your surname as his Christian name are you?
;-)

Well there are obvious copyright issues here, but I'm not going to have a go at him ... I don't want people thinking that I spend my spare time bashing the Bishop.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I'm not sure you get what I mean Keith.
If advertising is bad then why isnt Dive, more like BSAC talk!!!

I?m not saying that advertising is bad, far from it ? all that I?m saying is that it has its place and that place isn?t somewhere provided by our members limited funds.

I?ll give you my views on what I would do in your examples, this is of course open to debate (separate thread?) if you want to.

Skippers regularly have the odd space on boats. Sometimes they
fill them, sometimes not. If I as a pro-skipper come on here
and say I have 2x spaces this weekend is that spamming?

SPAM, I?d probably delete it. There are several other well established places for this type of information such as the NDG. The problem here is that if I allow one then I have to allow potentially several hundred ? per week!

What if its a new boat/operation/dive charter is that spamming
when most of us would really like to hear about it?

As you?ve said that may well be something that divers would be interested in knowing about so I?d probably let it go, especially if there was a nice deal for BSAC members :-) It?s a one-off, it shouldn?t re-occur (see above) so I?m not seeing any real problems.

Simlarly I'm a holiday company that has two spaces on a
liveabord leaving tommorrow and am prepared to reduce the
price by 50%. Is that spamming if I put it here?
Ignoring the BSAC-Hayes & Jarvis tie-up there ARE other holiday
companys offering some stunning late deals out there.

SPAM, deleted instantly (yes, I have done so!). Such companies should have their own sites and dedicated mailing lists for people who may be looking for such things. This type of post would only be of interest to a tiny minority of forum participants, it would annoy more people than it pleased. Again, allow it once and you?re flooded.

What of kit offers? Insurance deals? Cheap Red Sea flights.

SPAM, deleted, as above.

Even late spaces on pro-BSAC dive courses etc.

I?d probably let that one go if it was a commercially run SDC or the like. Branches and regions advertise their spaces (we encourage it) so why not schools, whose instructors will be BSAC members just like the rest of us? Volumes would be low, I would view it as a BSAC service for BSAC members.

The list goes on and on.

I could come up with some much more ?grey? examples than that, the type of thing that borders on the question is this commercial or not?

All that's neccessary is a pro-forum. If you are anything
commercial then you can post there. If it "wanders" over to
the non-profit side then simply stick it back over again.
If they keep doing it ban them.

More work for me? Oh joy :-(

There really is no need to "decide" on the merits, as you now
have a place for all this info.

Oh yes you do need to decide! Let me give you a simple example ? a regular forum contributor and BSAC member has an association with a commercial operation, they are also PADI trained and they DM for the outfit. The hard boat has a problem, the member posts on the operators behalf telling divers to contact the operator and gives the commercial contact details. Commercial or not? I can tell you now that some people would claim commercial, others would claim diver information. The choice has to be made. With the current system I would let it go on the basis that it?s a one off and the information content is more important than the commercial message.

One very advantagous point (for firms) is that they have a
targeted audience. Result (for us) = more competition and
greater bargains for us all.

One members useful information and bargains is another members SPAM. That?s my problem, creating the pro forum as you suggest doesn?t solve the problem, it just moves it around a bit and I will still have to make judgement calls. So my personal view is that things are fine as they are. We?re not overrun with SPAM but what I deem as of general interest/information I let go.

As I?ve said I?m open to suggestions on this, how do the members want their forums moderated? In fact I have to do very little moderation, the people on here are a great bunch and we?ve all kind of settled into the ethos of the forums. So that?s where I?m coming from on this Terry ? I don?t think that we need to create a special pro forum for all and sundry (running it would cost members money) and what we have now seems to work.

Keith L