Boat Handling course and RYA licence [Archive]

Mike Halligan

20-02-2004, 14:10

Can anybody clarify the position with the old (2 years ago) bsac boat handling course and it's relevence to the RYA powerboat handling certificate. I seem to recall that if you completed the BSAC it was the same as the RYA level 2. If that is the case is there a crossover path that can be taken as I need Level 2 certification

Cheers,

Mike,

You might be helped by checking this up with HQ (Technical Services) direct, as things are about to change. However, I personally doubt there will be any retrospective effect.

RYA did not (in 2003) recognise my BH, Diver Cox and ABI qualifications as having the slightest relevance to their award of ICC. I'd to produce evidence of RYA qualification to a sufficient level or take a level 2 assessment. At that time I held both Day Skipper (Theory) and Level 3 Powerboat (Practical), so it wsn't a problem - but I was less than impressed by their stuffy attitude.

The BSAC BH course is _not_an_assessment_ and therein RYA see a problem - at least in my experience they seem to have done. If you want an ICC then you may well have to take the assessment.

HTH
Mike

David Walker

20-02-2004, 22:36

RYA did not (in 2003) recognise my BH, Diver Cox and ABI qualifications as having the slightest relevance to their award of ICC. I'd to produce evidence of RYA qualification to a sufficient level or take a level 2 assessment. At that time I held both Day Skipper (Theory) and Level 3 Powerboat (Practical), so it wsn't a problem - but I was less than impressed by their stuffy attitude.

Boat Handling is a course just to show you how to use a boat - you may be absolutely crap at it, not be able to drive in a straight line, use a compass, use a GPS or anything, but you did the course so you get the certificate as far as i'm aware. Diver Cox'n is basically an assessment of what you will have learnt on the BH course, and then subsequently practiced and gained experience from.
Its therefore not surprising that the RYA won't accept the Boat Handling course as certification, but according to the SDC Syllabus for Diver Cox'n, the RYA Powerboat Level 2 certificate is awarded ALONG WITH the BSAC qualification - the Diver Cox'n course uses the exact same assessment as Powerboat Level 2 as far as I can see (with a separate part for the diving-related bits). So, either the course has changed since you did it so that the RYA certificate is awarded separately, i've misunderstood the syllabus desription, or BSAC give you something saying RYA, but the person looking at your qualification didn't recognise it so didn't accept it.

David

mark allen

21-02-2004, 10:11

:=RYA did not (in 2003) recognise my BH, Diver Cox and ABI qualifications as having the slightest relevance to their award of ICC. I'd to produce evidence of RYA qualification to a sufficient level or take a level 2 assessment. At that time I held both Day Skipper (Theory) and Level 3 Powerboat (Practical), so it wsn't a problem - but I was less than impressed by their stuffy attitude.

Boat Handling is a course just to show you how to use a boat - you may be absolutely crap at it, not be able to drive in a straight line, use a compass, use a GPS or anything, but you did the course so you get the certificate as far as i'm aware. Diver Cox'n is basically an assessment of what you will have learnt on the BH course, and then subsequently practiced and gained experience from.
Its therefore not surprising that the RYA won't accept the Boat Handling course as certification, but according to the SDC Syllabus for Diver Cox'n, the RYA Powerboat Level 2 certificate is awarded ALONG WITH the BSAC qualification - the Diver Cox'n course uses the exact same assessment as Powerboat Level 2 as far as I can see (with a separate part for the diving-related bits). So, either the course has changed since you did it so that the RYA certificate is awarded separately, i've misunderstood the syllabus desription, or BSAC give you something saying RYA, but the person looking at your qualification didn't recognise it so didn't accept it.

David

Hello Gentleman,
With regards to the BSAC boat handling course.
As one of you said the Course in an introduction to Boat handling you do however cover all the RYA Level 2 Syllabus and some extra for divers, there is no assessment. The idea is to then go back to the branch and get 5 hours Boat driving experience under other BSAC Cox?s and BH members. You then come to the Regional Coaching team or they come to your branch and you could the take the Diver Cox assessment. You were not allowed to run this in branch with your members taking branch members it had to be form outside the branch (the Assessor) an RYA Level 2 Sticker was then issued for you RYA Book that you got on the BH course. This all changed 2 years ago when the RYA stopped recognizing our BSAC dive Cox to their RYA 2 level. This was due to some changes with the RYA?s requirements for where the courses were being conducted. ie not at a recognised school. We did try and get it back with the HQ Tec Dept and the Vice Chairman and NDO all trying very hard with lots of talks with the RYA with no final out come. The Team then decided to approach the other diving community members (PADI,SAA,SSAA) to see what we could do to have a acknowledged course worldwide. A lot of work has gone it to this from the team and they have now put a course together and the MCA has now approved it. This will allow the BSAC ABI to teach anyone who wants to learn how to drive a boat. The new course is being launched at LIDS next month.
Mark Allen
BSAC Council Member
Area Coach South West

David Applin

21-02-2004, 22:50

Andy Nye

22-02-2004, 13:46

Dave,

It still amazes me as well.

I'm also
BSAC Dive Leader << Lowest Grade >> (amongst other qualifications)

and holding a Yachtmaster offshore commercially endorsed qualification.

To which I have always wondered what a diving instructor can teach any better than me when it comes to boat handling? same here, especially , gaining my first RYA quailification at the age of 9,,,,, jezzzzzzz thats 31 years ago now,

I would have thought that someone with your quail's and experience , would have been made a BHI from the quail's you hold.

IMHO, this sort of carry on, is one of the reason that i did not renew my membership.

Rgds

Andy

David Walker

22-02-2004, 13:50

To which I have always wondered what a diving instructor can teach any better than me when it comes to boat handling?

Half of the course is to do with diving related boat stuff, which is why you need to be a BSAC instructor. As an advanced diver with lots of boat qualifications no doubt you do know about all that, but then an Advanced Diver without any instructor qualifications couldn't even teach mask clearing to a trainee Ocean Diver.
There have to be instructor qualifications, you may know loads and loads about a subject, but you may not be able to teach it to others very well, or not in the style BSAC would like. Even though you're a RYA instructor, that won't let you teach a BSAC course, just as a PADI instructor can't teach Ocean Diver.

It does make sense if you think about it.

David

mark allen

22-02-2004, 13:57

Mark.

thank you for your complete reply,

Could you clarify the pre-requesites for becoming a BSAC ABI please. My understanding was that one of the RYAs issues was how easy it was to become a BSAC boat handling instructor compared to the requirements for their own instructors.

On a different note, this is of interest because , up to now I have not been allowed to teach BSAC boat handling courses for my local club despite being

BSAC Advanced diver (amongst other qualifications)
The Principal of a RYA training center
An Advanced Power boat trainer
A Day skipper trainer
and holding a Yachtmaster offshore commercially endorsed qualification.

I was told that I could not train baot handling because I was not a BSAC diving instructor.

To which I have always wondered what a diving instructor can teach any better than me when it comes to boat handling?

Regards

David

David
I am afraid you will have to check with the Tec Department, but you will have to become a BSAC instructor to Boss the course. You may well be able to assist, as you are a RYA powerboat instructor, but that may have changed due to the Problems with the RYA.

To become and ABI the BSAC member has to be a Diver Cox and a BSAC Instructor.
They then have to go and observe a course being run. The next course they have to act as an instructor under the guidance of an ABI and if on the recommendation of that instructor the Boss of the course will then sign the form for them to become an ABI, the will also watch the teach on the course. If the Boss of the BH course thinks they are not good enough then they should not sign the form. And they will then have to instruct on another course.
Mark Allen

David Walker

22-02-2004, 18:21

and holding a Yachtmaster offshore commercially endorsed qualification.

As I replied to the other post, I don't think its an unreasonable condition. Even the best boat handler in the world may be completely incapable of teaching to a good standard, and although you may have lots of boat handling qualifications, they won't enable you to properly teach the diving related parts of the course. I'm sure being a dive boat skipper you know all of that, but its not just being able to do it yourself - its being able to teach it. There are a lot of theory lectures for BH, which to deliver effectively you need to have practiced and be competent.

I really don't see how having to be a BSAC instructor to teach a BSAC course is unreasonable - if it was identical to the RYA course, then I would expect that suitable qualified RYA instructors would be able to teach it. A PADI instructor can't teach BSAC qualifications, a BSAC First Class Diver couldn't even teach mask clearning to an Ocean Diver, so why should an experienced skipper be able to teach a boat handling course?

David

Andy Nye

22-02-2004, 18:57

:=and holding a Yachtmaster offshore commercially endorsed qualification.

As I replied to the other post, I don't think its an unreasonable condition. Even the best boat handler in the world may be completely incapable of teaching to a good standard, and although you may have lots of boat handling qualifications, they won't enable you to properly teach the diving related parts of the course.

*** OH GET REAL, i have been a diver for many years, and do on average the dives per year, that most instructors do in a dive career.

PLUS, yes i am a DIVE BOAT SKIPPER, which means having been a commercial diver,1st mate on a dive salvage ship, SENIOR COXSWAIN for my club for past 8 years, says that i have EXPERIENCE, though working at it in full time employment...***

I'm sure being a dive boat skipper you know all of that, but its not just being able to do it yourself - its being able to teach it. There are a lot of theory lectures for BH, which to deliver effectively you need to have practiced and be competent.

*** I can teach it, and WELL..... Just that i don't have a BSAC or RYA ticket to stick in peoples faces to show it ***

Roll on the day , when the MCA make it law , that all vessels that go to sea have RYA quailified skippers over the grade of ICC.

So, now we have a OWI with less that 200 dives under his / her belt, do a quick course in boat handling ,and become a BHI.... Thats better than a bloke with 30 years experience AT SEA is it ?

Thats why i enjoy and have a giggle at all these BSAC DIVE BOAT coxswains in the incident reports.

Andy

David Applin

22-02-2004, 19:02

Thanks again Mark.

The situation you describe is as I thought.

I note that there is very little prerequisit in terms of experience. It more important to be a BSAC diving instructor and attend a BH SDC / Teach under observation an BH SDC. The problem is the existing ABI who is assesing and signing off the new guy may not have much experience either. or are all diving instructors qualified in training the trainer and assessment? I am..... Qualified from the London Uni.

I am sure that the multi agency effort to create an alternative to the RYA courses is an excellent way forward. However, until the method in which the diving agencies award instructor status is addressed I will remain a cynic as no doubt the RYA will as well.

We do as well need to look at the insurance small print, where many policies state "RYA level 2 or equivelent" as the minimum requirement for insurance purposes. The RYA courses are internationally recognised and can be used to obtained an international certificate of competance which is a EC requirement even for driving your own boat (UK opted out). Will the BSAC qualification also make you eligible for an ICC? bearing in mind that the ICC is administrated by the RYA!

Then there is the question of further education. Surley a BSAC qualified boat handler, Even a BSAC ABI with no other qualifications will need to start at RYA level 2 if they wish to further their experience through the system and ultimatly to the Yachtmaster system? Recconmending a BSAC course may not be in the members interests in this case.

To sum up.
Until I'm convinced otherwise - The level of instruction even from the new course will depend very much on the individual BSAC instructor and there is insufficient control and prerequisits in awarding these instructor certificates. All clubs will find that they have several RYA training centers close to them and I am sure that any club should be capable of contacting them and getting a decent discount. I do discount for several clubs on the south coast and am very aware that the final cost to the BSAC member is not very different to what they currently pay through the BSAC SDC system.

Until I am convinsed otherwise I will continue to recconmend that anyone who wants to go boating and get trained do so through a professional organisation

Its my firm belief that the BASC and other diver training organisations have enough to do dealing with the ever changing diver training issues and should focus their limited resourse on addrssing those rather than addressing somthing which is more than adequatley supported throught the RYA system and can be found, with a little digging, at a similar costs.

Still, If you come back and tell me that there will be no instructional grandfather rights for the new course and that all instructors will have to be reassessed and have a minimum 5 years boating experience prior to becoming an instructor and the attend a 3 day course staffed by people who have been trained to train instructors and that there will be a annual inspection of all the clubs teaching boathandling by a trained assessor and that there is a active ongoing quality control system in place in the form of external (to the club) feedback forms.............I might just be convinced.

Boathandling is a serious business - the skipper is -in law - in charge and responsible. This is not like diving where the divers are responsible for themselves and their buddy. The skipper is responsible for everyone on the boat and this extends to all other third parties using the water.

Regards

David

David Applin

22-02-2004, 19:12

Half of the course is to do with diving related boat stuff, which is why you need to be a BSAC instructor. As an advanced diver with lots of boat qualifications no doubt you do know about all that,

OK I have taught diver cox many time under the direct supervision of the properly qualified person. I do not agree that there is anything in diver cox which cannot be taught by a non diving RYA instructor

but then an Advanced Diver without any instructor qualifications couldn't even teach mask clearing to a trainee Ocean Diver.

I have not listed any of my other diving / instruction qualification.. I chose not to teach diving.

There have to be instructor qualifications, you may know loads and loads about a subject, but you may not be able to teach it to others very well, or not in the style BSAC would like. Even though you're a RYA instructor, that won't let you teach a BSAC course, just as a PADI instructor can't teach Ocean Diver.

There are simple crossovers for diving instructors from one agency to another.

It does make sense if you think about it.

No it dosn't It would make more sence to have a BH instruction qualification with crossovers from the RYA and if the system for awarding a BSAC BH instructor certificate was altered this could be both ways.(see oher post)
It does not make sence that a diving instructor can teach BH after attending, assisting and teaching on a couple of courses - not when the assessor is an ABI with an unknown level of ability as well. we could be compounding a whole load of bad habits.

David

Regards

David

David Applin

22-02-2004, 19:16

so why should an experienced skipper be able to teach a boat handling course?

David

I actually agree with this sentence in isolation :-)

No - I completly agree!

But this is not the point that I am debating

There are a lot of theory lectures for BH, which to deliver effectively you need to have practiced and be competent.

Ho hum........ and in what RYA course does the same not apply? RYA instructors are actually taught professionally how to do this as part of the instructors course.

David Applin

22-02-2004, 19:20

Andy M8
I understand your sentiments expressed below but we need to debate this without emotion.
We see what goes on out there more than most and need to reason with the poweres thet be to make the point effectivly.

Cheeers

David

:=:=and holding a Yachtmaster offshore commercially endorsed qualification.
:=
:=As I replied to the other post, I don't think its an unreasonable condition. Even the best boat handler in the world may be completely incapable of teaching to a good standard, and although you may have lots of boat handling qualifications, they won't enable you to properly teach the diving related parts of the course.

*** OH GET REAL, i have been a diver for many years, and do on average the dives per year, that most instructors do in a dive career.

PLUS, yes i am a DIVE BOAT SKIPPER, which means having been a commercial diver,1st mate on a dive salvage ship, SENIOR COXSWAIN for my club for past 8 years, says that i have EXPERIENCE, though working at it in full time employment...***

I'm sure being a dive boat skipper you know all of that, but its not just being able to do it yourself - its being able to teach it. There are a lot of theory lectures for BH, which to deliver effectively you need to have practiced and be competent.

*** I can teach it, and WELL..... Just that i don't have a BSAC or RYA ticket to stick in peoples faces to show it ***

Roll on the day , when the MCA make it law , that all vessels that go to sea have RYA quailified skippers over the grade of ICC.

So, now we have a OWI with less that 200 dives under his / her belt, do a quick course in boat handling ,and become a BHI.... Thats better than a bloke with 30 years experience AT SEA is it ?

Thats why i enjoy and have a giggle at all these BSAC DIVE BOAT coxswains in the incident reports.

Andy

David Applin

22-02-2004, 19:26

Even though you're a RYA instructor, that won't let you teach a BSAC course, just as a PADI instructor can't teach Ocean Diver.

It does make sense if you think about it.

David

In your example you decribe how one diving agency instructor cannot teach in another agency.... no problem with this as there are crossover courses.

So if a qualified instructor cant teach in the same discipline - diving - in another agency where does it make sence that a diving instructor can teach in a completly different discipline? it make no sence at all even if it is the same agency.

Regards

David

Andy Nye

22-02-2004, 19:28

Let's look at it this way.

Every commercial dive boat skipper has taken an exam, being in front of a professional RYA examiner, with the exam lasting bewteen 8 - 12 hours.

I hold both the RYA Coastal Skipper and the Yachtmaster offshore ( motor ), each required you to be at ahigh standard and have the sea miles under your belt acting as skipper, before even doing the exam. To pass that exam , you need to know your stuff.

I also am a BSAC ACI, which mean that years ago i did the course to learn to be an instructor, which also along those years have stood up in front of many new dive students and given lectures. SO, i'm damm certain that i could very easily, stand up in front of a class and give any lecture on boat handling. Also, can very easily , take students out on any boat up to 24 mts and also give instruction on boat handling.

Personally , i think a lot of you diving instructors and diving officers , that just coz you have some sort of ticket, shouldstand back and listen to what some of us do as a profession , and try and learn something from us.

Andy

Paul Leyland

22-02-2004, 19:38

Let's look at it this way.
Personally , i think a lot of you diving instructors and diving officers , that just coz you have some sort of ticket, shouldstand back and listen to what some of us do as a profession , and try and learn something from us.

Andy
I TOTALLY AGREE!
I am a BSAC Diver Cox'n assessor. I used to cox a dive boat 4 days a week. Everytime I get onto any boat I look, listen and try to stay quiet (not always easy..). I am always learning. Someone who takes a boat out daily will have a wealth of experience - and if I can, I will plagarise anything I see or hear if it helps with my own skills, or in my teaching of those skills.

Be good, Be safe,
Paul

David Applin

22-02-2004, 19:41

:=Let's look at it this way.
:=Personally , i think a lot of you diving instructors and diving officers , that just coz you have some sort of ticket, shouldstand back and listen to what some of us do as a profession , and try and learn something from us.
:=
:=Andy
I TOTALLY AGREE!
I am a BSAC Diver Cox'n assessor. I used to cox a dive boat 4 days a week. Everytime I get onto any boat I look, listen and try to stay quiet (not always easy..). I am always learning. Someone who takes a boat out daily will have a wealth of experience - and if I can, I will plagarise anything I see or hear if it helps with my own skills, or in my teaching of those skills.

Be good, Be safe,
Paul

Hi Paul,

Nice to see that level of reason

thank you

David

Andy Nye

22-02-2004, 19:44

:=:=I TOTALLY AGREE!
I am a BSAC Diver Cox'n assessor. I used to cox a dive boat 4 days a week. Everytime I get onto any boat I look, listen and try to stay quiet (not always easy..). I am always learning. Someone who takes a boat out daily will have a wealth of experience - and if I can, I will plagarise anything I see or hear if it helps with my own skills, or in my teaching of those skills.

Be good, Be safe,
Paul

YEE HAAAAA some-one has some grey matter...... well done Paul

David Walker

22-02-2004, 20:17

I also am a BSAC ACI, which mean that years ago i did the course to learn to be an instructor, which also along those years have stood up in front of many new dive students and given lectures. SO, i'm damm certain that i could very easily, stand up in front of a class and give any lecture on boat handling. Also, can very easily , take students out on any boat up to 24 mts and also give instruction on boat handling.

I'm not doubting that from your experience you could teach a BH course, and teach it very well. The point is if (as I understand it) you're not a BSAC instructor you can't teach a BSAC course. Maybe they could have some crossover system for RYA instructors so that you can teach a BSAC BH course, but then you won't necessarily have had the 'official' BSAC training in diver related techniques, and if all instructors don't start from the same base then the BSAC system gets very muddled - and thats on top of the huge variety of techniques instructors currently use, even coming from the same basic instructor training background.

Personally , i think a lot of you diving instructors and diving officers , that just coz you have some sort of ticket, shouldstand back and listen to what some of us do as a profession , and try and learn something from us.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm sure you are a very good skipper, and could teach others very well, and as someone with little experience of boats I would take note of advice given by more experienced people. However, the point is that BSAC can't just allow people to teach their courses who BSAC themself haven't assessed as being suitable capable and qualified - they'd lose control of the training scheme, and in any case, where would they draw the line?

David

David Walker

22-02-2004, 20:34

OK I have taught diver cox many time under the direct supervision of the properly qualified person. I do not agree that there is anything in diver cox which cannot be taught by a non diving RYA instructor

I don't personally know what RYA instructors teach and don't teach, but if their training in anything to do with the diver aspect (ie shot lines, recovering and dropping divers, helicopter operations, etc) then bsac will need them to do that as an offical part of a course - if its somehting they learnt informally then it should be taught formally and be part of the RYA instructor assessment before being allowed to teach it.

Of course, if youve taught it and done it well then that should be OK, but then we'd get all sorts of people just trying to teach a BH course with very little experience, which would be very bad for BSAC and probably any other boats and divers in the area - they need to draw a line somewhere, and unfortunately (for some) being a bsac instructor is a requirement.

I have not listed any of my other diving / instruction qualification.. I chose not to teach diving.

I do appreciate the point that boating and diving are separate, but the BH course is specifically tailored to the type of boat handling needed for dive boats, and if you look at the Diver Coxn't (the actual assessment of BH) there are two distinct parts - one is a copy of the RYA assessment, the other is just as important and is all diving related.

There are simple crossovers for diving instructors from one agency to another.

Well they could have BH crossovers, they may have already tried, i don't know - maybe RYA won't cooperate, maybe BSAC won't, maybe neither has tried?

It does not make sence that a diving instructor can teach BH after attending, assisting and teaching on a couple of courses - not when the assessor is an ABI with an unknown level of ability as well. we could be compounding a whole load of bad habits.

I'm sure the ABI should be suitable skilled and experienced before they are approved, and then if assessing others should be experienced and professional enough to say whether or not the person they are assessing as a new ABI is good enough to do it alone. Of course it is one of the flaws of a voluntary instructor organisation, since they can't do full formal assessments with great expenses because there aren't the resources available to do so. With professonal organisations where courses cost ?xxx the situation is different.

Its not ideal for RYA instructors, but as i've said before BSAC need to have some limits and control over who teaches their courses. If you want to teach people, theres nothign stopping a RYA instructor teaching them teh RYA course is there? Therefore you own't need to do the BSAC course at all...

David

David Walker

22-02-2004, 20:36

:=There are a lot of theory lectures for BH, which to deliver effectively you need to have practiced and be competent.

Ho hum........ and in what RYA course does the same not apply? RYA instructors are actually taught professionally how to do this as part of the instructors course.

Somewhere in here i've got the impressioon that it was someone who was very experienced, but not either RYA or BSAC instructor who wanted to teach the BSAC course. Obviously RYA instructors should be capable of teaching, but then why not teach the RYA course? if you want to teach BSAC, you need to be a BSAC instructor (although a crossover specifically for boat handling would help)

David

David Walker

22-02-2004, 20:57

*** I can teach it, and WELL..... Just that i don't have a BSAC or RYA ticket to stick in peoples faces to show it ***

I understand you fustration, but there has to be some sort of assessment of your instruction ability - how does someone at BSAC/RYA headquarters know you have any sort of ability to teach?
Surely you must understand that they need some form of quality control and formality for instructors, and that control is by doing an instructor course and being assessed in instruction? Otherwise, how do they know that you can teach without breaking down crying in the corner of the lecture room because someone asked you a question you can't answer? You could be so shy you don't even turn up? You may be nervous and miss whole chunks of the material they need to know? There are lots of unknowns from the organisations, and the *have* to assess your ability one way or another. For BH, having to become a diving instructor to teach BH might seem odd, but as BSAC is a diving organisation, and there aren't really any shortage of OWI's who've done BH, then there isn't much motivation to put in place procedures for non-BSAC instructors to be able to teach the course - they just aren't needed.

Roll on the day , when the MCA make it law , that all vessels that go to sea have RYA quailified skippers over the grade of ICC.

But that'd just serve to stop recreational diving! We can't all afford ?30 per day for charter boats.

So, now we have a OWI with less that 200 dives under his / her belt, do a quick course in boat handling ,and become a BHI.... Thats better than a bloke with 30 years experience AT SEA is it ?

Not at all better, but how would you arrange the system better? At least the BHI has been assessed in his instructional technique - he may not be able to handle a boat as well as you, but you just seem to want to be able to do it just because you know you can - the body whose qualifications you are given *must* know that you can do it, and that is by assessing you as an instructor.

Thats why i enjoy and have a giggle at all these BSAC DIVE BOAT coxswains in the incident reports.

Now you seem to just be getting into "i'm better than you all" talk - we all know you have your own boat, we see that on the bottom of everythign you post, but doing something and instructing something is quite different, and requires skills - where else does a qualification in doing something also allow you to teach something? RYA want you to do instructor quals, BSAC do too for diving, teachers do years of degree study to teach 2x2 and 4+1, so why should you be able to teach from your experience?
Again i'm not saying you couldn't, but there has to be quality control somewhere!

David

David Applin

22-02-2004, 22:27

:=:=There are a lot of theory lectures for BH, which to deliver effectively you need to have practiced and be competent.
:=
:=Ho hum........ and in what RYA course does the same not apply? RYA instructors are actually taught professionally how to do this as part of the instructors course.

Somewhere in here i've got the impressioon that it was someone who was very experienced, but not either RYA or BSAC instructor who wanted to teach the BSAC course. Obviously RYA instructors should be capable of teaching, but then why not teach the RYA course? if you want to teach BSAC, you need to be a BSAC instructor (although a crossover specifically for boat handling would help)

David

Because, some people want to do the BSAC course. I am happy to teach it at similar rates to what a BSAC SDC would cost (for my local clubs) in other words the current system is limiting the access BSAC members have to the course. I have more than enough RYA courses to keep me going - however I am not adverse to putting some effort back into the local clubs

Regards

David Walker

23-02-2004, 00:16

Because, some people want to do the BSAC course. I am happy to teach it at similar rates to what a BSAC SDC would cost (for my local clubs) in other words the current system is limiting the access BSAC members have to the course. I have more than enough RYA courses to keep me going - however I am not adverse to putting some effort back into the local clubs

Suppose so - I think i'd probably stick with BSAC courses too just to get the dive-specific parts. :O\
Try asking HQ if they've ever considered some sort of crossover for RYA instructors. I think you should be able to attend some sort of crossover course, just half a day to get across 'the BSAC way' of teaching, and then go through the 'observe a course', then 'run a course under supervision' bit before doing it yourself.

One problem I think is that they have probaly already considered it and rejected the idea - if you look at the syllabus for the Chartwork and Position Fixing course, the instructor requirement is "OWI, or person of proven instructing ability... with qualifications such as RYA/DTP Yachtmaster". Now to me, because they allow that I'd assume that they have considered RYA alliances for courses, and presumably decided that the RYA qual was more than adequate, while presumable they don't believe an RYA course covers quite as much of the diver-related bits as is needed to teach BH.

David

Dave

23-02-2004, 19:56

Because, some people want to do the BSAC course. I am happy to teach it at similar rates to what a BSAC SDC would cost (for my local clubs) in other words the current system is limiting the access BSAC members have to the course.

But the BSAC course is supposed to be the same as the RYA course except that the RYA have the sense to include the exam at the end to give the Level 2 certificate, whilst BSAC doesn't. BSAC recognises the RYA 2 for Boat Handling. I deliberately did the RYA course and would recommend that to anyone else.

Dave

David Walker

23-02-2004, 21:54

But the BSAC course is supposed to be the same as the RYA course except that the RYA have the sense to include the exam at the end to give the Level 2 certificate, whilst BSAC doesn't. BSAC recognises the RYA 2 for Boat Handling. I deliberately did the RYA course and would recommend that to anyone else.

The exam is separate, in the Diver Cox'n SDC. Makes sense to get some experience in doing it rather than doing the exam 2 minutes after being shown how to do it - makes sure people will actually know how to do it and learn, not just remember for the 1 hour between being shown and doing the exam.

David

24-02-2004, 08:06

Andy

enough Andy, you forget that some of us know you, for a start as an ACI the only teaching you did would have been under the direct supervision of a fully qualified instructor. You will of course remember some of my visits to your branch, say no more but this, Professional Skippers are brilliant, no one is saying otherwise, and so are many BSAC Diver Cox, brilliant, but then some Professional Skippers are not so brilliant and there are also some not so brilliant BSAC Diver Cox, oh for a perfect world!!!

I watch this forum a lot, you aleays have a lot to say, uaually blowing your own trumpet, and take great delight in attacking BSAC, I wonder why? especially as you seem no longer to be a member!!

You have lots of skills and its a shame you waste them by attacking a great bunch of people that would be a great asset to you in your business ( customers ) Your choice mate!!

Be safe
John Pederson
Former South East Regional Coach

Let's look at it this way.

Every commercial dive boat skipper has taken an exam, being in front of a professional RYA examiner, with the exam lasting bewteen 8 - 12 hours.

I hold both the RYA Coastal Skipper and the Yachtmaster offshore ( motor ), each required you to be at ahigh standard and have the sea miles under your belt acting as skipper, before even doing the exam. To pass that exam , you need to know your stuff.

I also am a BSAC ACI, which mean that years ago i did the course to learn to be an instructor, which also along those years have stood up in front of many new dive students and given lectures. SO, i'm damm certain that i could very easily, stand up in front of a class and give any lecture on boat handling. Also, can very easily , take students out on any boat up to 24 mts and also give instruction on boat handling.

Personally , i think a lot of you diving instructors and diving officers , that just coz you have some sort of ticket, shouldstand back and listen to what some of us do as a profession , and try and learn something from us.

Andy

Andy Nye

24-02-2004, 22:42

Andy

enough Andy, you forget that some of us know you, for a start as an ACI the only teaching you did would have been under the direct supervision of a fully qualified instructor. You will of course remember some of my visits to your branch,

*** Yes i do John ,I also remember the advise that You and Laurance gave me on trying to pass my instructors exam. YOU may also remember why i took 5 go at passing the exam, ( At the time of your visits, we only had ONE instructor in our branch , that hardly was there,,,, and at that time i was D/O,, T/O and E/O ).
I also think that you was also at an exam i attended, when i turned up 5 minutes late, after ringing you from a hospital, when my uncle had just died,,,,, THATS HOW COMMITTED i was in taking the exam. ****

Say no more but this, Professional Skippers are brilliant, no one is saying otherwise, and so are many BSAC Diver Cox, brilliant, but then some Professional Skippers are not so brilliant and there are also some not so brilliant BSAC Diver Cox, oh for a perfect world!!!

I watch this forum a lot, you aleays have a lot to say, uaually blowing your own trumpet, and take great delight in attacking BSAC, I wonder why? especially as you seem no longer to be a member!!

**** IF you re read the posts here, maybe you can see why. ( I can't see a single line of text where i'm ATTACKING BSAC ).. Might be having a dig at a instructor, that clearly can't see how Dave Applin is willing to help a branch and needs to be a DIVING instructor to do so, when he is already a BOATING INSTRUCTOR. ****

You have lots of skills and its a shame you waste them by attacking a great bunch of people that would be a great asset to you in your business ( customers ) Your choice mate!!

**** Your right, i used my skill in buying a formed business with a large database of divers that were prebooked for 2004 , and some right up to 2007..... i haven't met most of them, but i think i'll find that less than 15 % of them are not BSAC members, but as long as they are trained divers and insured , i will carry anyone ****

Nice to hear from you,

Andy

Ps, last year i was a social member ( ? 5 pa ) of the Dover Branch, and gave up all my free time at weekends taking out the clubs hard boat, so that the members could have a dive, YES, i still do a lot off my own back to try and get monies into the club from outside sources for training etc etc...

WHY DO I BOTHER I HEAR YOU ASK ? Easy, i dive all week , i play boats all week, and when i'm not busy i like to try and put things back into my branch where i can , even if it's coming out my own pocket,,,, so i can't really see why you say i'm ATTACKING BSAC. maybe i'm thick :-|

David Walker

25-02-2004, 14:00

*** Yes i do John ,I also remember the advise that You and Laurance gave me on trying to pass my instructors exam. YOU may also remember why i took 5 go at passing the exam, ( At the time of your visits, we only had ONE instructor in our branch , that hardly was there,,,, and at that time i was D/O,, T/O and E/O ).

Just because you put a lot of effort into passing an exam doesn't mean you will be good at it - in fact if you took 5 attempts to pass an assistant instructor grade then something suggests that you weren't particularly good at teaching - yet you still feel that you are above the system, that you are so fantastic and experienced that you don't need to be told how to do anything.
You got all pretentious because you want boat handlers to listen to you and take advice from someone more experienced than themself, but you are completely unwilling to do the same yourself with respect to instructing!

**** Your right, i used my skill in buying a formed business with a large database of divers that were prebooked for 2004 , and some right up to 2007..... i haven't met most of them, but i think i'll find that less than 15 % of them are not BSAC members, but as long as they are trained divers and insured , i will carry anyone ****

Hmmm - so you have a popular boat... but thats not in any part due to you, you just bought them, yes? So, after they meet you and, if you are anything like how you appear on here, once the pre-bookings are gone I imagine a lot will find someone a lot more pleasant to have to spend the day on a boat with.

David