Courses and boats

[crofty]

We have two RIBS in our club, which we "Hire" out to members at the rate of ?2.50 per member for each trip out that they make on the boat. However when we lend our boats to boathandling courses and the like. Only our own members get charged for using the boats, other BSAC member sget usgae of our boats for nothing. The reason is the worry that would be seen as commercial.
Is there a solution, as it seems to be particularly unfair and expenive for us to mainatin boats and other to get free use of them?


Richard

[Adrian Kelland]

We have two RIBS in our club, which we "Hire" out to members at the rate of ?2.50 per member for each trip out that they make on the boat. However when we lend our boats to boathandling courses and the like. Only our own members get charged for using the boats, other BSAC member sget usgae of our boats for nothing. The reason is the worry that would be seen as commercial.
Is there a solution, as it seems to be particularly unfair and expenive for us to mainatin boats and other to get free use of them?


Richard

Why don't all the course student contribute to the course expenses?

Is the course organised by yourselves, or regionally/nationally?

Adrian

[crofty]

:=We have two RIBS in our club, which we "Hire" out to members at the rate of ?2.50 per member for each trip out that they make on the boat. However when we lend our boats to boathandling courses and the like. Only our own members get charged for using the boats, other BSAC member's get usage of our boats for nothing. The reason is the worry that would be seen as commercial.
:=Is there a solution, as it seems to be particularly unfair and expenive for us to mainatin boats and other to get free use of them?
:=
:=
:=Richard

Why don't all the course student contribute to the course expenses?
That is a good question?


Is the course organised by yourselves, or regionally/nationally?

No it is organised by a group of Local clubs who pool resources and Instructors

Adrian

[terryh]

We have two RIBS in our club, which we "Hire" out to members at the rate of ?2.50 per member for each trip out that they make on the boat. However when we lend our boats to boathandling courses and the like. Only our own members get charged for using the boats, other BSAC member sget usgae of our boats for nothing. The reason is the worry that would be seen as commercial.
Is there a solution, as it seems to be particularly unfair and expenive for us to mainatin boats and other to get free use of them?



Err why is it unfair?
If you run your own courses then you dont need outside
Instructors and can cost/charge what you like to your own
members (to cover expenses).

If however you "pool" your resources with other clubs and you
benefit from outside volunteer Instructors and organisation
that they provide then this is IMO a small price to pay.

BSAC at this level really is a bartering system. How much did
it cost to train upto Advanced Instructor level and become a
boathandling Instructor?
Same or more than maintaning a boat or impossible to calculate?
Well yes so that's why you do that for me and I'll do that for
you is the best way. We are a club after all!

TerryH

[Mike Rowley]

Richard

Just a word of warning. You need to be very carefull in the way you operate you club boats. You state that the club "hires" the boats to it's members at ?2.50 per trip.

The MCA Code of Pracice for small commercial vessels engaged in sport & leisure allows club boats to be exempt from it's provisions providing that;

1. they use the provisions of the code as a guide to the way they equip and operate their boats

2. they make no charge for the use of the vessels other than for directly incurred expenses

3. That the boats are used for the club members only, the club of course can be construed as the BSAC

If a club is making a set charge for use of the boat, even to it's own members this may be interpreted as operating commercially. Your club may be asked by the MCA to provide evidence that it's charge is for direct expenses only.

You need to be very carefull with this one.

Cheers

We have two RIBS in our club, which we "Hire" out to members at the rate of ?2.50 per member for each trip out that they make on the boat. However when we lend our boats to boathandling courses and the like. Only our own members get charged for using the boats, other BSAC member sget usgae of our boats for nothing. The reason is the worry that would be seen as commercial.
Is there a solution, as it seems to be particularly unfair and expenive for us to mainatin boats and other to get free use of them?


Richard

[Andy Nye]

Richard

Just a word of warning. You need to be very carefull in the way you operate you club boats. You state that the club "hires" the boats to it's members at ?2.50 per trip.

The MCA Code of Pracice for small commercial vessels engaged in sport & leisure allows club boats to be exempt from it's provisions providing that;

1. they use the provisions of the code as a guide to the way they equip and operate their boats

2. they make no charge for the use of the vessels other than for directly incurred expenses

3. That the boats are used for the club members only, the club of course can be construed as the BSAC

If a club is making a set charge for use of the boat, even to it's own members this may be interpreted as operating commercially. Your club may be asked by the MCA to provide evidence that it's charge is for direct expenses only.

You need to be very carefull with this one.

& that is VERY VERY VERY Careful

[Matt]

It all sounds like a wonderful accountancy exercise.

They are all members of the club, presumably paying subs into a common pool and no one is making a profit.

How about the boat is free of charge but the toolkit is 'hired' out at 2.50 a head. Is that likely to be more acceptable to the MCA?

As for the divers from other clubs using the boat you could ask them to pay a 2.50 guest membership fee.

Regards
Matt

[Andy Nye]

As for the divers from other clubs using the boat you could ask them to pay a 2.50 guest membership fee.

Regards
Matt


Matt

APPRENTLY, ( as i was told at our AGM last week )A guest diver can use the boat up to 5 times in a year, like BSAC try dives before coming a member.

NOW, i am seeing the RoW and MCA tonight, i will ask this question and see what the MCA spokesperson has to say.

A) A club with a rib is hardly going to affect my income in my dive charter work boat business.
B) I would love to see people doing boat handling courses to improve their knowledge of such a wonderful place ( The sea ).


Andy

ex commercial diver turned charter skipper ' Taurus '

p.s Having a coded vessel and having to read the Code of Practice, Rules and laws are changing all the time, and i like to keep up to date, so that i'm perfect in all sense of safety and not landing myself a heavy fine. After having a coded inspection in July, so many things had changed by Dec, that i have had to stick my hand DEEP into my pocket to keep up.
All to keep my diver customers happy and knowing that all equipment is tested and in date, boat is seaworthy plus that i have the RIGHT quailifications and Fully insured.

[Andy Nye]

Richard

Just a word of warning. You need to be very carefull in the way you operate you club boats. You state that the club "hires" the boats to it's members at ?2.50 per trip.

The MCA Code of Pracice for small commercial vessels engaged in sport & leisure allows club boats to be exempt from it's provisions providing that;

1. they use the provisions of the code as a guide to the way they equip and operate their boats

2. they make no charge for the use of the vessels other than for directly incurred expenses

Which are ? ANY club wil make sure to cover all yearly expenses **

3. That the boats are used for the club members only, the club of course can be construed as the BSAC

Only , if the boat is insured and BSAC are on the certificate of insurance as the VESSELS OWNER or AGENT

If a club is making a set charge for use of the boat, even to it's own members this may be interpreted as operating commercially. Your club may be asked by the MCA to provide evidence that it's charge is for direct expenses only.

You need to be very carefull with this one.

Cheers

:=We have two RIBS in our club, which we "Hire" out to members at the rate of ?2.50 per member for each trip out that they make on the boat. However when we lend our boats to boathandling courses and the like. Only our own members get charged for using the boats, other BSAC member sget usgae of our boats for nothing. The reason is the worry that would be seen as commercial.
:=Is there a solution, as it seems to be particularly unfair and expenive for us to mainatin boats and other to get free use of them?
:=
:=
:=Richard

[Andy Nye]

Just looking at my boats insurance.

If your renting it out for money to be used on a course, etc, other than the name STATED as owner on the insurance.

Your vessel has to be looged with insurance company as

a) A skippered charter vessel or / &
b) Bare boat charter vessel.

In both cases , the vessel has to be CODED.
A skippered charter vessel , the skipper ( NOT BOAT HANDLER ) has to hold the approved MCA Commercial endorsed skippers ticket.


Now , who's rib is fully and properly insured.

[David Applin]

Always a good one this......

Renting the boat out for any money is a bare boat or skippered charter - THATS COMMERCIAL - I hope you heve MCA coding and the correct insurance.


The current MCA harmonised code clearly states what a club is and defines the two types of club
Members (most BSAC clubs) and propriotors clubs (self explainitory). Members clubs are exempt from the code requirements Propriotors are not.


Andy has brought up the question of correct insurance...... Good. But how many clubs out there are running a boat and claiming duty relief on the fuel using HO50 and stating that they are a rescue boat? Loads I know of and yes I have checked with Customs and Ecsice - its illegal. The duty reclaim is only available to commercial craft. Yoau are getting away with it because that department does not have enough enforcement staff and they rely on trust. Beware - this is changing too.

At the end of the day you are a club or a charter boat, you can not pick and chose the best parts of each regulation and win all ways and expect to stay within the law.

Ps Andy, Coding has grandfather rights and you are not required to alter the boats equipment in line with code in between annual inspections.

[Mike Rowley]

David

Are you sure the Harmonised Code has come into force? My information is currently that the MCA have not yet brought it into force. This is of particular interest to me as my vessel is over the 15m oal limit and under the harmonised code will become subjuct to self certification between 5 yearly surveys instead of annual surveyor inspection.

Mike Rowley

Always a good one this......

Renting the boat out for any money is a bare boat or skippered charter - THATS COMMERCIAL - I hope you heve MCA coding and the correct insurance.


The current MCA harmonised code clearly states what a club is and defines the two types of club
Members (most BSAC clubs) and propriotors clubs (self explainitory). Members clubs are exempt from the code requirements Propriotors are not.


Andy has brought up the question of correct insurance...... Good. But how many clubs out there are running a boat and claiming duty relief on the fuel using HO50 and stating that they are a rescue boat? Loads I know of and yes I have checked with Customs and Ecsice - its illegal. The duty reclaim is only available to commercial craft. Yoau are getting away with it because that department does not have enough enforcement staff and they rely on trust. Beware - this is changing too.

At the end of the day you are a club or a charter boat, you can not pick and chose the best parts of each regulation and win all ways and expect to stay within the law.

Ps Andy, Coding has grandfather rights and you are not required to alter the boats equipment in line with code in between annual inspections.

[David Applin]

Mike,

Correct, Just spoken to tommy Tucker at the MCA and once again the implimentation date has been delayed! should have been in before Christmas. It is now apparently out in its "final draft" form to all the contributing agencies. He suspects a further 2 months prior to implimentation

Not bad for a code which has 2002 in the title :-)

This is a long link....... to the new codes, I agree that under the new codes you would have a less onerous certification assuming that you carry less than 15 persons? and re not in cat 0 or 1. Its still not 5 yearly but you get to do it yourself and only have a surveyor every 3 years.

<a href="http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-regs/mcga-consultations/mcga-consultations-archive/mcga-dqs_st_cvs_large_small_vessels_code.htm" >http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-regs/mcga-consultations/mcga-consultations-archive/mcga-dqs_st_cvs_large_small_vessels_code.htm</a>

Tip........... I think the RYA are, as a certifying agency, using the new rules already........ dont know who you sue but it might be worth a chat to Maralyn trodd at the RYA

Let me know haw you get on

Regards




David

Are you sure the Harmonised Code has come into force? My information is currently that the MCA have not yet brought it into force. This is of particular interest to me as my vessel is over the 15m oal limit and under the harmonised code will become subjuct to self certification between 5 yearly surveys instead of annual surveyor inspection.

Mike Rowley

:=Always a good one this......
:=
:=Renting the boat out for any money is a bare boat or skippered charter - THATS COMMERCIAL - I hope you heve MCA coding and the correct insurance.
:=
:=
:=The current MCA harmonised code clearly states what a club is and defines the two types of club
:=Members (most BSAC clubs) and propriotors clubs (self explainitory). Members clubs are exempt from the code requirements Propriotors are not.
:=
:=
:=Andy has brought up the question of correct insurance...... Good. But how many clubs out there are running a boat and claiming duty relief on the fuel using HO50 and stating that they are a rescue boat? Loads I know of and yes I have checked with Customs and Ecsice - its illegal. The duty reclaim is only available to commercial craft. Yoau are getting away with it because that department does not have enough enforcement staff and they rely on trust. Beware - this is changing too.
:=
:=At the end of the day you are a club or a charter boat, you can not pick and chose the best parts of each regulation and win all ways and expect to stay within the law.
:=
:=Ps Andy, Coding has grandfather rights and you are not required to alter the boats equipment in line with code in between annual inspections.

[Andy Nye]

HOW MY CLUB/BRANCH STANDS.

For a CLUB/BRANCH boat with NO MCA coding or quailified commercial endorsed skipper .

My club has a boat ? YES
Can my club charge me for diving from this boat ? NO
Can my club charge NON Branch members ? NO
Can my club for charge for renting it out ? NO
Can my club claim back TAX charges ? NO
Are we breaking MCA rules ? YES
Can we be prosecuted ? YES

For a CLUB/BRANCH boat with an MCA coding & quailified commercial endorsed skipper .

My club has a boat ? YES
Can my club charge me for diving from this boat ? YES
Can my club charge NON Branch members ? YES
Can my club for charge for renting it out ? YES ( if
insured for skippered charters and bareboat charters, then
someone on board must have a commercial skippers ticket )
Can my club claim back TAX charges ? YES
Are we breaking MCA rules ? NO, ( unless
something is out of date, that vaildates the inspection
survey )
Can we be prosecuted ? YES ( unless
something is out of date, that vaildates the inspection
survey )


Now , i think people can see how much TIME , MONEY and EFFORT is put into US CHARTER SKIPPERS in running our boatsand making sure that we are 100 % within the codes and insurance.

P.S
Having spoke in person with Sophia Exelby ( last night 21/Jan/03 at about 21:30 @ the RCPYC ) A CHARTER SKIPPER can not be PROSECUTED for any diver that recovers anything from the SEA, that may be onboard his boat ;-) ( Good news , huh Dave / Terry/ Mike ).

Can a coded skipper from his coded boat, report other vessels working as commercial vessels that are not coded, to the ENFORCEMENTS OFFICE at MCA HQ, Southampton ? YES


Andy

[Mike Rowley]

Thanks Dave

I thought that was still the case. Really efficient organisation the MCA, almost as good as the HSE and any other government quango you can think of. Very good at regulating everyone else but utterly useless at getting their own act in order!

I think they may have some questions to aswer come the PBA AGM next month. No doubt there will be th usual non answers.

I'm with Mecal at the moment. More expensive than the RYA but also more flexible, they let you choose your surveyor.

Mike,

Correct, Just spoken to tommy Tucker at the MCA and once again the implimentation date has been delayed! should have been in before Christmas. It is now apparently out in its "final draft" form to all the contributing agencies. He suspects a further 2 months prior to implimentation

Not bad for a code which has 2002 in the title :-)

This is a long link....... to the new codes, I agree that under the new codes you would have a less onerous certification assuming that you carry less than 15 persons? and re not in cat 0 or 1. Its still not 5 yearly but you get to do it yourself and only have a surveyor every 3 years.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-regs/mcga-consultations/mcga-consultations-archive/mcga-dqs_st_cvs_large_small_vessels_code.htm

Tip........... I think the RYA are, as a certifying agency, using the new rules already........ dont know who you sue but it might be worth a chat to Maralyn trodd at the RYA

Let me know haw you get on

Regards




:=David
:=
:=Are you sure the Harmonised Code has come into force? My information is currently that the MCA have not yet brought it into force. This is of particular interest to me as my vessel is over the 15m oal limit and under the harmonised code will become subjuct to self certification between 5 yearly surveys instead of annual surveyor inspection.
:=
:=Mike Rowley
:=
:=:=Always a good one this......
:=:=
:=:=Renting the boat out for any money is a bare boat or skippered charter - THATS COMMERCIAL - I hope you heve MCA coding and the correct insurance.
:=:=
:=:=
:=:=The current MCA harmonised code clearly states what a club is and defines the two types of club
:=:=Members (most BSAC clubs) and propriotors clubs (self explainitory). Members clubs are exempt from the code requirements Propriotors are not.
:=:=
:=:=
:=:=Andy has brought up the question of correct insurance...... Good. But how many clubs out there are running a boat and claiming duty relief on the fuel using HO50 and stating that they are a rescue boat? Loads I know of and yes I have checked with Customs and Ecsice - its illegal. The duty reclaim is only available to commercial craft. Yoau are getting away with it because that department does not have enough enforcement staff and they rely on trust. Beware - this is changing too.
:=:=
:=:=At the end of the day you are a club or a charter boat, you can not pick and chose the best parts of each regulation and win all ways and expect to stay within the law.
:=:=
:=:=Ps Andy, Coding has grandfather rights and you are not required to alter the boats equipment in line with code in between annual inspections.

[Mike Rowley]

Having spoke in person with Sophia Exelby ( last night 21/Jan/03 at about 21:30 @ the RCPYC ) A CHARTER SKIPPER can not be PROSECUTED for any diver that recovers anything from the SEA, that may be onboard his boat

Unless your in French waters. The French go for any and everyone and they are draconian, believe me, I'm a bloody expert!

Mike

[Andy Nye]

:=Having spoke in person with Sophia Exelby ( last night 21/Jan/03 at about 21:30 @ the RCPYC ) A CHARTER SKIPPER can not be PROSECUTED for any diver that recovers anything from the SEA, that may be onboard his boat

Unless your in French waters. The French go for any and everyone and they are draconian, believe me, I'm a bloody expert!

Mike

Yeah , I know Mike,,,,, What she was referring to was British divers in UK waters coming back to the UK.

Also she wants reports by US charter skippers if we see forgien dive vessels , nicking wreck goodies and taken them back to their countries.
She is quite 'chatty' if you talk to her in person

Andy

[Mike Rowley]

:=
:=:=Having spoke in person with Sophia Exelby ( last night 21/Jan/03 at about 21:30 @ the RCPYC ) A CHARTER SKIPPER can not be PROSECUTED for any diver that recovers anything from the SEA, that may be onboard his boat
:=
:=Unless your in French waters. The French go for any and everyone and they are draconian, believe me, I'm a bloody expert!
:=
:=Mike

Yeah , I know Mike,,,,, What she was referring to was British divers in UK waters coming back to the UK.

Also she wants reports by US charter skippers if we see forgien dive vessels , nicking wreck goodies and taken them back to their countries.
She is quite 'chatty' if you talk to her in person

Andy

Quite agree Andy, I've met her on a number of occasions and always found her very pleasant, as was Veronica.

Cheers

Mike

[David Applin]

Andy,

Much as I dislike arguing, especially with you ........ :-)

Can I add a bit to your comments below?


HOW MY CLUB/BRANCH STANDS.

For a CLUB/BRANCH boat with NO MCA coding or quailified commercial endorsed skipper .

My club has a boat ? YES
Can my club charge me for diving from this boat ? NO

Yes - but only what it costs to run the boat

Can my club charge NON Branch members ? NO

Yes as above up to 6 times whilst they decide wether to join or not

Can my club for charge for renting it out ? NO
Can my club claim back TAX charges ? NO
Are we breaking MCA rules ? YES

No - members clubs are exempt from the code provided that they are members clubs and operate as members clubs.

Can we be prosecuted ? YES

See above


For a CLUB/BRANCH boat with an MCA coding & quailified commercial endorsed skipper .

My club has a boat ? YES
Can my club charge me for diving from this boat ? YES
Can my club charge NON Branch members ? YES
Can my club for charge for renting it out ? YES ( if
insured for skippered charters and bareboat charters, then
someone on board must have a commercial skippers ticket )

Err sort of - If you charter a comercial boat (bare boat for non commercial activity then you dont need a commercial skippers ticket! How else would all the yacht charters operate

Can my club claim back TAX charges ? YES

No - its still a club. VAT and Duty reclaims are only available to commercial operation at sea and then (for VAT) only when the entire charter is solely for the transportation of passengers at sea. In the event that you carry cargo or operate at a workboat (photography or commercial divers for example) then VAT must be charged on the charter, or course you can claim the VAT back on the expences. This little gem is why no insrtuctor may put my name on his dive project plan as surface cover without prior written permission! If they do ask they can do it, but then I will add VAT at 17.5% to the cost of his charter.

Are we breaking MCA rules ? NO, ( unless
something is out of date, that vaildates the inspection
survey )
Can we be prosecuted ? YES ( unless
something is out of date, that vaildates the inspection
survey )


Now , i think people can see how much TIME , MONEY and EFFORT is put into US CHARTER SKIPPERS in running our boatsand making sure that we are 100 % within the codes and insurance.

P.S
Having spoke in person with Sophia Exelby ( last night 21/Jan/03 at about 21:30 @ the RCPYC ) A CHARTER SKIPPER can not be PROSECUTED for any diver that recovers anything from the SEA, that may be onboard his boat ;-) ( Good news , huh Dave / Terry/ Mike ).


But The skipper can be prosecuted for your divers landing too many or undersize fish, Lobster and crab! This applies to the skipper of a club boat as well. (Remember at sea the skipper is in charge in law)

Can a coded skipper from his coded boat, report other vessels working as commercial vessels that are not coded, to the ENFORCEMENTS OFFICE at MCA HQ, Southampton ? YES


And do you think we do it? Yes very much so, and I'm happy to do it in front of them just so they are sure who snitched them! The 4 so called club Ribs who operate locally to me, as clubs avoiding MCA regs, yet charging commercially AND claiming duty relief on their fuel have been reported. MCA are just waiting for the season to start............

Andy

Sorry Andy - just my fav subject :-)

[David Applin]

You get to choose with the RYA provided they are on the RYA's books

David

Thanks Dave

I thought that was still the case. Really efficient organisation the MCA, almost as good as the HSE and any other government quango you can think of. Very good at regulating everyone else but utterly useless at getting their own act in order!

I think they may have some questions to aswer come the PBA AGM next month. No doubt there will be th usual non answers.

I'm with Mecal at the moment. More expensive than the RYA but also more flexible, they let you choose your surveyor.

:=Mike,
:=
:=Correct, Just spoken to tommy Tucker at the MCA and once again the implimentation date has been delayed! should have been in before Christmas. It is now apparently out in its "final draft" form to all the contributing agencies. He suspects a further 2 months prior to implimentation
:=
:=Not bad for a code which has 2002 in the title :-)
:=
:=This is a long link....... to the new codes, I agree that under the new codes you would have a less onerous certification assuming that you carry less than 15 persons? and re not in cat 0 or 1. Its still not 5 yearly but you get to do it yourself and only have a surveyor every 3 years.
:=
:= http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-regs/mcga-consultations/mcga-consultations-archive/mcga-dqs_st_cvs_large_small_vessels_code.htm
:=
:=Tip........... I think the RYA are, as a certifying agency, using the new rules already........ dont know who you sue but it might be worth a chat to Maralyn trodd at the RYA
:=
:=Let me know haw you get on
:=
:=Regards
:=
:=
:=
:=
:=:=David
:=:=
:=:=Are you sure the Harmonised Code has come into force? My information is currently that the MCA have not yet brought it into force. This is of particular interest to me as my vessel is over the 15m oal limit and under the harmonised code will become subjuct to self certification between 5 yearly surveys instead of annual surveyor inspection.
:=:=
:=:=Mike Rowley
:=:=
:=:=:=Always a good one this......
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Renting the boat out for any money is a bare boat or skippered charter - THATS COMMERCIAL - I hope you heve MCA coding and the correct insurance.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=
:=:=:=The current MCA harmonised code clearly states what a club is and defines the two types of club
:=:=:=Members (most BSAC clubs) and propriotors clubs (self explainitory). Members clubs are exempt from the code requirements Propriotors are not.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Andy has brought up the question of correct insurance...... Good. But how many clubs out there are running a boat and claiming duty relief on the fuel using HO50 and stating that they are a rescue boat? Loads I know of and yes I have checked with Customs and Ecsice - its illegal. The duty reclaim is only available to commercial craft. Yoau are getting away with it because that department does not have enough enforcement staff and they rely on trust. Beware - this is changing too.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=At the end of the day you are a club or a charter boat, you can not pick and chose the best parts of each regulation and win all ways and expect to stay within the law.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Ps Andy, Coding has grandfather rights and you are not required to alter the boats equipment in line with code in between annual inspections.

[Andy Nye]

Andy,

Much as I dislike arguing, especially with you ........ :-)

*** I know, please just don't put ya arm round me shoulder and lick my cheek like a cat , PLEASEEEEEE "..... i'm out later to see my local MP, i want to have ROAD TAX SCRAPPEDDDD and have it added to petrol "


Can I add a bit to your comments below?

**** NO, But i see ya have, ain't the pub open ? "

:=HOW MY CLUB/BRANCH STANDS.
:=
:=For a CLUB/BRANCH boat with NO MCA coding or quailified commercial endorsed skipper .
:=
:=My club has a boat ? YES
:=Can my club charge me for diving from this boat ? NO

Yes - but only what it costs to run the boat

:=Can my club charge NON Branch members ? NO

Yes as above up to 6 times whilst they decide wether to join or not

:=Can my club for charge for renting it out ? NO
:=Can my club claim back TAX charges ? NO
:=Are we breaking MCA rules ? YES

No - members clubs are exempt from the code provided that they are members clubs and operate as members clubs.

:=Can we be prosecuted ? YES

See above

:=
:=For a CLUB/BRANCH boat with an MCA coding & quailified commercial endorsed skipper .
:=
:=My club has a boat ? YES
:=Can my club charge me for diving from this boat ? YES
:=Can my club charge NON Branch members ? YES
:=Can my club for charge for renting it out ? YES ( if
:= insured for skippered charters and bareboat charters, then
:= someone on board must have a commercial skippers ticket )

Err sort of - If you charter a comercial boat (bare boat for non commercial activity then you dont need a commercial skippers ticket! How else would all the yacht charters operate

:=Can my club claim back TAX charges ? YES

No - its still a club. VAT and Duty reclaims are only available to commercial operation at sea and then (for VAT) only when the entire charter is solely for the transportation of passengers at sea. In the event that you carry cargo or operate at a workboat (photography or commercial divers for example) then VAT must be charged on the charter, or course you can claim the VAT back on the expences. This little gem is why no insrtuctor may put my name on his dive project plan as surface cover without prior written permission! If they do ask they can do it, but then I will add VAT at 17.5% to the cost of his charter.

:=Are we breaking MCA rules ? NO, ( unless
:= something is out of date, that vaildates the inspection
:= survey )
:=Can we be prosecuted ? YES ( unless
:= something is out of date, that vaildates the inspection
:= survey )
:=
:=
:=Now , i think people can see how much TIME , MONEY and EFFORT is put into US CHARTER SKIPPERS in running our boatsand making sure that we are 100 % within the codes and insurance.
:=
:=P.S
:=Having spoke in person with Sophia Exelby ( last night 21/Jan/03 at about 21:30 @ the RCPYC ) A CHARTER SKIPPER can not be PROSECUTED for any diver that recovers anything from the SEA, that may be onboard his boat ;-) ( Good news , huh Dave / Terry/ Mike ).
:=

But The skipper can be prosecuted for your divers landing too many or undersize fish, Lobster and crab! This applies to the skipper of a club boat as well. (Remember at sea the skipper is in charge in law)

:=Can a coded skipper from his coded boat, report other vessels working as commercial vessels that are not coded, to the ENFORCEMENTS OFFICE at MCA HQ, Southampton ? YES
:=

And do you think we do it? Yes very much so, and I'm happy to do it in front of them just so they are sure who snitched them! The 4 so called club Ribs who operate locally to me, as clubs avoiding MCA regs, yet charging commercially AND claiming duty relief on their fuel have been reported. MCA are just waiting for the season to start............
:=
:=*** Yeah, but i don't want to go down to my boat one night , start up , pull away , just to find that some scrotttttttttt of a scoobie do has put some rope and chain around my props and shafts or silicone up my water intakes. ***

Sorry Andy - just my fav subject :-) **** YEAH i know, and i think we all are very grateful for your imput, i know i am ***

[Matt]

This little gem is why no insrtuctor may put my name on his dive project plan as surface cover without prior written permission! If they do ask they can do it, but then I will add VAT at 17.5% to the cost of his charter.

Dave,

There is a requirement BSAC marshalling 'recommendations' that requires a 'competant' person to be on the surface while the marshal is under water.

How would it work if a club wanted to name you as the 'competant' person for the purposes of marshalling? For instance would you be charging VAT or possibly not willing to do it because of liability.

[David Applin]

How would it work if a club wanted to name you as the 'competant' person for the purposes of marshalling? For instance would you be charging VAT or possibly not willing to do it because of liability.


Matt

You are not at "work"
Of course as the taxi driver I will still be in the boat waiting for the customers to come back. I'm sure this sill satisfy your clubs requirements. As you know - I never get off the boat when customers are present, not even if someones else stays onboard

I believe that the requirement is to ensure that a club does not all go diving leaving the boat unattended?

regards

[Matt]

You are not at "work"
Of course as the taxi driver I will still be in the boat waiting for the customers to come back. I'm sure this sill satisfy your clubs requirements. As you know - I never get off the boat when customers are present, not even if someones else stays onboard

I believe that the requirement is to ensure that a club does not all go diving leaving the boat unattended?

Thanks for that Dave.

I am sure you are aware of my views about this sort of thing. It appears these days that there are those things we do because they make diving safer at a practical level (common sense), and those things we do simply to keep some lawyer /insurance company / Government body happy. The two are not always compatible and IMVHO amateur diving is becoming far too focused on the latter at the cost of the former.

I have no doubt on your abilities or those of any other charter skipper I use. But I would hate to see a dive organiser defending themselves whilst the lawyers argued whether the Skipper was competant!

At Horsea Lake there is always a 'competant' person on the shore. I have no doubt that they would react should anything untoward happen but they have decided that we must provide our own additional shore cover to comply with BSAC reccomendations. The result is that the regular dips in Horsea are in decline...maybe one day I will work out what it is costing them.

I would go so far as to say that ticking all the boxes to ensure your 'branch' dive is correctly organised, and the organisers 'safely' insured, is becoming such a major undertaking that it surpises me that, I or anyone is still willing to do it. Personally due to the uncertainty of insurance validity I regularly consider jacking it in, getting my own insurance and just turning up for the boat. I keep at it because I sincerely believe diving in a club is safer, with or without the boxes ticked.

Rant over.

[Matt]

Matt

A) A club with a rib is hardly going to affect my income in my dive charter work boat business.

Heh. The charter business does alright out of our club. We have some 300+ charter spaces booked this year. The planning forms went up last night and they were about 2/3 full by the time I left. The boats we use regularly tend to be those that are willing to work with us and make our organisers lives easier...and offer a discount of course ;-)

B) I would love to see people doing boat handling courses to improve their knowledge of such a wonderful place ( The sea ).

We have our own RIB but it is not large enough to accomodate the number of members that want to dive. It takes as much time to organise a RIB dive for 4 people as it does a charter for 12 so personally chartering is more efficient use of my time. I do think it is important that clubs have boats and the members get the opportunity to learn to use them, boats are integral to diving after all. If nothing else it teaches people just how hard / expensive it can be to run a boat properly.

I think there are some serious safety issues with using a small RIB several miles off shore as a platform for decompression diving. As a club in the last few years we have seen a huge increase in the number of people routinely making extended Nitrox and staged deco dives.

Certainly for our current membership the days of relying on the club RIB are gone.

so many things had changed by Dec, that i have had to stick my hand DEEP into my pocket to keep up.
All to keep my diver customers happy and knowing that all equipment is tested and in date, boat is seaworthy plus that i have the RIGHT quailifications and Fully insured.

Oh please don't get me started. The cost of a dive charter has risen inordinately in the 9 years I have been at it and much of that increase is apparently down to the MCA coding requirements. I don't see too many fat cat skippers lounging around counting their money ;-)

I suspect the less obvious impact of the continual price hikes is divers reluctant to do work ups and the less exciting dives that I cut my teeth on. For instance the planning forms with the biggest holes in last night were the &lt;20m dives. Ensuring that club members are worked up is yet another challenge. I am playing with some ideas around losing deposits if a recent dive history at a similar depth can not be proved. But we have to avoid becoming too draconian otherwise people leave the club and dive what they want with no oversite whatsoever.

[Andy Nye]

Hi all,

I would have thought that the COUNCIL would have added to the forum reguarding this confusing matter to a lot of it's members. Plus i would love to know as well.

Now, he is a question i was asked during the weekend .

If i'm driving my clubs rib, which members have paid to dive from, who carries the can in any legal action taken & does BSAC insurance covers me for legal advise ?


Andy

[David Applin]

Andy,

Good question - but!

assuming you are talking about BSAC 3rd party Liability I would imagin that it would very much depend on the circumstances. However "Any" club boat will be insured seperatly (I hope) and this should include legal aid 3rd party cover etc etc etc.

regards

David

Hi all,

I would have thought that the COUNCIL would have added to the forum reguarding this confusing matter to a lot of it's members. Plus i would love to know as well.

Now, he is a question i was asked during the weekend .

If i'm driving my clubs rib, which members have paid to dive from, who carries the can in any legal action taken & does BSAC insurance covers me for legal advise ?


Andy

[Andy Nye]

Andy,

Good question - but!

assuming you are talking about BSAC 3rd party Liability I would imagin that it would very much depend on the circumstances. However "Any" club boat will be insured seperatly (I hope) and this should include legal aid 3rd party cover etc etc etc.

regards

David

Hi Dave,

Sorry mate, that was me that rang you yesterday and said " sorry wrong number ".

Back to the question in hand, what i was told in ermmm not so many words were . " All our branches kit is insured by BSAC , isn't it ? ". I had to walk away.

Andy

[David Applin]

Back to the question in hand, what i was told in ermmm not so many words were . " All our branches kit is insured by BSAC , isn't it ? ". I had to walk away.

Andy

Andy,

At this point I'm going to walk away to. That ones so good it does not even deserve a response

David

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi all,

I would have thought that the COUNCIL would have added to the forum reguarding this confusing matter to a lot of it's members. Plus i would love to know as well.

Now, he is a question i was asked during the weekend .

If i'm driving my clubs rib, which members have paid to dive from, who carries the can in any legal action taken & does BSAC insurance covers me for legal advise ?

Andy

It's not Council who can answer your question - try HQ technical (Probably Jim) because they deal with insurance queries all of the time. I'll tell you what I believe the situation to be, but then I'm only the Council geek and not an insurance specialist!

Although you say that the boat is 'branch kit' the BSAC insurance is only 3rd party and it is NOT marine insurance. Your club boat should be covered by adequate 3rd party marine insurance which would cover boating specific incidents.

This is not an anomoly - some clubs have club vans and tow vehicles ect. and although it is 'branch kit' we do not cover their motor insurance!

Please don't take my word for this, I'm only giving you personal opinion. Check with HQ for the definitive answer.

HTH

Keith L

[Andy Nye]

Andy

It's not Council who can answer your question - try HQ technical (Probably Jim) because they deal with insurance queries all of the time. I'll tell you what I believe the situation to be, but then I'm only the Council geek and not an insurance specialist!

**** Keith, many thanks for your input, and i know your answer ;-) NO isn't it. ****

Although you say that the boat is 'branch kit' the BSAC insurance is only 3rd party and it is NOT marine insurance. Your club boat should be covered by adequate 3rd party marine insurance which would cover boating specific incidents.

**** The chap who i was chatting to IS not a member of the Dover Sub Aqua Club nor was the boat or kit,,,, they were from London somewhere, and moored up alongside MY OWN CHARTER VESSEL to use my tool kit , soldering iron , electric and a cuppa , while they fixed VHF bracket and re soldered the co-ax connector. we were just chatting about prices and stuff , when they came out with info about club boat and insurance. *****

This is not an anomoly - some clubs have club vans and tow vehicles ect. and although it is 'branch kit' we do not cover their motor insurance!

Please don't take my word for this, I'm only giving you personal opinion. Check with HQ for the definitive answer.

*** not my place , and not got any info on names or clubs to report to BSAC with . at the time i was just helping out fellow divers out of a problem as to carrying a better tool box ***

HTH

Keith L

Thanks again for input ,,,,, perhaps we might see Jim add a piece about club boats and how it is affected by the MCA on charging etc etc etc

[BSACHQ]

Andy

It's not Council who can answer your question - try HQ technical (Probably Jim) because they deal with insurance queries all of the time. I'll tell you what I believe the situation to be, but then I'm only the Council geek and not an insurance specialist!

**** Keith, many thanks for your input, and i know your answer ;-) NO isn't it. ****

Although you say that the boat is 'branch kit' the BSAC insurance is only 3rd party and it is NOT marine insurance. Your club boat should be covered by adequate 3rd party marine insurance which would cover boating specific incidents.

**** The chap who i was chatting to IS not a member of the Dover Sub Aqua Club nor was the boat or kit,,,, they were from London somewhere, and moored up alongside MY OWN CHARTER VESSEL to use my tool kit , soldering iron , electric and a cuppa , while they fixed VHF bracket and re soldered the co-ax connector. we were just chatting about prices and stuff , when they came out with info about club boat and insurance. *****

This is not an anomoly - some clubs have club vans and tow vehicles ect. and although it is 'branch kit' we do not cover their motor insurance!

Please don't take my word for this, I'm only giving you personal opinion. Check with HQ for the definitive answer.

*** not my place , and not got any info on names or clubs to report to BSAC with . at the time i was just helping out fellow divers out of a problem as to carrying a better tool box ***

HTH

Keith L

Thanks again for input ,,,,, perhaps we might see Jim add a piece about club boats and how it is affected by the MCA on charging etc etc etc


All,
The thread has developed to a point where some clarification from HQ may be advantageous.
The MCA have discussed the 'members club' situation with the BSAC and the other diver training associations at a series of meetings of the 'Combined Diving Associations' (CDA).

The understanding is that 'members club' are not commercial in their operation. Any charges made to the members must be reasonable and for the purpose of covering the trip expenses and maintenance of the boat and engine. No member must make a living, draw a wage or receive payments beyond reasonable expenses incurred from the money taken.

A guest can dive from the boat on 6 occasions in a calendar year but should be charged the same as the members. The purpose of allowing guests onboard is for them to assess whether they intend to join that particular branch. One-day memberships are not allowed.

The above understandings are contained in the guidelines that the CDA are preparing, in conjuction with the MCA, and will form part of the CDA boathandling course and diver coxswain assessment package. This package is due for launch in Spring this year.

With regards to the insurance query that has been raised; the BSAC third party insurance covers members, and bona fide guests, for the diving that takes place from the boat but it is expected that every branch obtains its own marine insurance cover for the boat and associated equipment.

I hope this helps reassure those who feel it is a mine-field. The MCA have a very clear understanding of how 'members clubs' operate and are fully supportive in ensuring that they are not seen to be 'commercial'.

Alistair Reynolds
BSAC Technical Manager

[David Applin]

I hope this helps reassure those who feel it is a mine-field. The MCA have a very clear understanding of how 'members clubs' operate and are fully supportive in ensuring that they are not seen to be 'commercial'.

Alistair Reynolds
BSAC Technical Manager



Cheers Alistair,

Thanks for the clarification from HQ

(seems I got my posts correct) big :-)

David