Diver BSAC LIDS and Dive Go Diving 2004

[Melanopterus]

As the BSAC LIDS is run by Diver Mag (I assume the club gets a healthy cut of the revenue) and Dive is running a show to oppose it, does DIve really have the good interests of the club at its heart or is it just making money from the club member list?

Can anyone tell me the net financial benefit of either arrangement, LIDS or club mag?

I suggest members should be able to choose betweeen Diver and Dive. I am sure that both sales would be big enough to make the club and important customer with both magazines, so we would benefit all round. Dive is certainly no more allied to the BSAC than Diver was.

Now theres an idea!

[Adrian Kelland]

As the BSAC LIDS is run by Diver Mag (I assume the club gets a healthy cut of the revenue) and Dive is running a show to oppose it, does DIve really have the good interests of the club at its heart or is it just making money from the club member list?

I've not seen it as 'BSAC LIDS', only 'LIDS'. Go Diving is part of an outdoors show. If DIVE wish to take part in a show, that is up to them. The dive mags are in competition, so maybe BSAC benefits from both shows.

Can anyone tell me the net financial benefit of either arrangement, LIDS or club mag?

Almost certainly confidential

I suggest members should be able to choose betweeen Diver and Dive. I am sure that both sales would be big enough to make the club and important customer with both magazines, so we would benefit all round. Dive is certainly no more allied to the BSAC than Diver was.

Nice idea, unlikely to happen though. People changing minds each year plays havoc with planning.

I do find it interesting that Diver is perceived as the better mag. It is a shame that these forums were not around when the mag was changed to DIVE. I remember many divers complaining about Diver. Perhaps the Eatons had to buck their ideas up when they lost the nice known market of 40,000 copies.

Adrian

[John Bantin]

Diver and the ?Dive Show Company? are wholly owned by Eaton Publishing who keep all the profit. Nothing comes to BSAC.

Wrong.

I think you will find that the BSAC gets significant income from LIDS, and maybe more than from a year with a share of DIVE mag. I think you will find that when the cost of posting the mag to members is taken into consideration, Eaton Publications (who I believe picked up the tab unlike Dive) gave the BSAC a better bottom line. But then thats history!

Get your facts right before posting please!

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

These are all matters that fall within the remit of Council in the general management of the club. Detailed financial arrangements of our various contracts with various parties are commercial and in confidence, they will not be discussed here.

We have a long standing relationship and contract with Diver to support LIDS as the start-of-season dive show. There are financial considerations involved and we will continue to give LIDS our full support.

The Outdoor Show is NOT being run by Dive magazine, it is not even a dedicated dive show and it is being run by an independent company. The Outdoor Show is an acquisition event for outdoor pursuits in general, this year it will have a diving element.

It is within the club constitution that we provide a magazine for our members, we provide this magazine via Dive. Economies of scale (let alone the logistics!) would make it expensive and impractical to run two magazines.

Keith L

[Vic]

> I remember many divers complaining about Diver. Perhaps the
> Eatons had to buck their ideas up when they lost the nice known
> market of 40,000 copies.

That's certainly my impression; when BSAC terminated its contract with Diver, the magazine was truly terrible. It's quite good now...

Vic.

[John Bantin]

Thanks for your unbiased view - which magazine pays you! Oh Diver.

It is neither an unbiased nor biased view. It is an informed statement based on the knowledge I have of the real situation from working within the organisation.

The BSAC gets a significant share of the take from the whole of LIDS.
Fact.
It is also likely to make a profit from exhibiting just as any other exhibitor does.
Fact.

As Keith says, Its not for the likes of you to know exactly how much!!!

Merry Christmas one and all and lets hope the BSAC and Eaton Publications jointly make another significant profit from operating LIDS.

[Melanopterus]

It is within the club constitution that we provide a magazine for our members, we provide this magazine via Dive. Economies of scale (let alone the logistics!) would make it expensive and impractical to run two magazines.

Keith L

Why would it be expensive and impractical to run two magazines? They already run! And they are clearly not run by the BSAC even if one has the logo on its cover.

As I understand it (from another post) if the magazines publishers paid the postage, it would only mean a matter of the club allowing members to choose which they want when renewing membership and simply dividing its mailing list in two parts.

Hey presto! And no cost to the club.

With the BSAC a large client of two magazines, presumably the club would get some influence with both.

[John Bantin]

Sorry Melanopterus, (or may I call you by your more familiar name - Blacktip) Vic is right.
When Diver Mag had a controlled circulation it was in an unreal business environment with one influential customer that was not condusive to progress. I even remember Bernard Eaton asking me to explain what PADI was!
However, by the beginnning of the ?90s it did still manage to build an unprecendented circulation of 17,000 outside the BSAC membership which (together with loyal BSAC readers) gave it a flying start as an independent magazine.
Notwithstanding what the owners would say, as a contributor or editorial material to both Diver and other non-diving magazines, I would say things have never been better at Diver than when the BSAC contract was lost.
Naturally there will always be room for improvement and there is now a talented group of people working on that.
Healthy competition is good for the consumer and now there are two magazines both with similar healthy circulations. (Diver?s varies from month to month depending on content, season, etc.)
This is good for readers, advertisers, and contributors. Its probably also good that the BSAC LIDS show (run by The Dive Show Ltd owned by Eaton Publications) has a competitor too.
So thanks for the idea but no thanks. The easy answer is that if you want to read Diver Mag, simply go and buy it!
The editorial staff are trying to make it the best diving mag in the world - and for all divers. I simply write/photograph for it.

[Andy Wade]

:=Diver and the ?Dive Show Company? are wholly owned by Eaton Publishing who keep all the profit. Nothing comes to BSAC.

Wrong.

I think you will find that the BSAC gets significant income from LIDS, and maybe more than from a year with a share of DIVE mag. I think you will find that when the cost of posting the mag to members is taken into consideration, Eaton Publications (who I believe picked up the tab unlike Dive) gave the BSAC a better bottom line. But then thats history!

Did they?
Well that's a surprise to me John.
It really is.
I seem to remember at least one year when there were many complaints about an increase in the cost of the Diver mag element of the BSAC subscriptions.
It was explained that it was to pay for an increased weight of the mag, which I also remember was just an increase in advertising pages and no actual increase in content to the reader.
All water under the bridge.
I do agree with you that Diver is a better magazine for the change after losing the BSAC contract.
But then it has had to be, nothing ruins something like a big fat contract, it just leads to complacency.
You'll know what else I'm referring to here of course..... IMO Dive mag has had the same problem.

[John Bantin]

Hi Andy,
(I am just back from diving the Carnatic! You will know what I mean.)

I think you will find that each page of advertising pays for a page of editorial. This a is fairly standard practice with conventional mags. But yes, the mag did get heavier as it got more successful and the 30p (approx guess) paid for each copy by the BSAC did not include the cost of postage which was paid for by the publisher. Unfortunately the bottom line was never revealed to the members.
If the club had wanted a best deal possible it might have gone for the proposal from EMAP (now theres a thought). However the change as it is was good for Diver and may I be cheeky enough to suggest that BSAC Dive would not be as good as it is if it did not have Diver as a strong competitor. Everyone wins (save for the publishers!).

[Melanopterus]

I am sorry Bantin does not like my idea.

However some other people seem a bit naive. The owner of Dive is certainly in business to make a profit just as much as the Eaton lot are with Diver.

From whats been said it looks like the deal for a mag involves a price per issue and the cost of posting. Evidently Dive gives back a proportion of advertising revenue while Diver paid the postage on 40000 copies each month. I wonder which is greater? I bet its close!
As I said before, its the bottom line that counts but those that know seem very coy about revealing what it is.

Anyway, I note that the advert for LIDS in Dive has a BSAC logo on it. People should not be confused between those that exhibit at a show and those that operate it. I am sure BSAC must get a stack of revenue from LIDS. I have heard that the sales team from Dive have allegedly told potential exhibitors that the Go Diving Show will mean the end of BSAC LIDS.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Gentlemen, gentlemen?

I think that this one has drifted far enough off topic.

As regards the change of the BSAC magazine from Diver to Dive : I am surprised that this one is being dragged up AGAIN! As with any competitive tendering process (which was how the change was made) there are pro and cons with all the submissions, one may be better in one aspect, another in another aspect. As such the Council of the day had to make a value judgement as to which gave the best overall value to our members, that is exactly what they did. I would also like to point out that the whole process was reviewed AGAIN by the independent enquiry following our financial problems of some years back, again this enquiry found that correct and proper procedures had been followed with all relevant information being available to Council.

This subject is all old history, I could rake out my dusty archive copies of the reams of information and correspondence but in all honesty I have better things to do. I just don?t see any point in raking over the ashes of this one yet again.

Please excuse me if I also abstain from the ridiculous ?which magazine is best? debates, you might as well debate which is the ?best? regulator, or the ?best? dive site. I enjoy BOTH magazines, I receive Dive along with my BSAC subscription and I also pay (out of my own pocket BTW) for my continuing subscription to Diver. To my complete and utter amazement (not!) I find what I consider are ?good? and also what I consider as ?bad? articles in both magazines. Personally I feel that competition has improved BOTH magazines, long may that continue.

It is no secret whatsoever that the BSAC has a contract to participate in and promote LIDS, it is of benefit to the club, it is of benefit to the Eaton group. We have commercial contracts and deals all over the place, they support the primary activities of the club, that is why for every ?1 we spend providing services for our members only around 60p comes from your subscriptions. No I?m NOT going to give out commercial details. Why not? Because to do so could damage the future negotiating position of the club when we are trying to get better deals for you, potential suppliers would just LOVE such commercial details.

I think that just about sums it up, there?s nothing secret, no hidden agendas, everything is above board and available to those (e.g. Council) who need it. All we?re trying to do here is run the club to the very best of our ability and get the best deals for our members.

Seasonal greetings to all.

Keith L

[john bache]

It's possible that the bottom line is not the most important parameter. If it were, then there would be no magazine included in the BSAC membership.

Bah humbug, but have happy new year.

John.

[Nigel Hewitt]

Gentlemen, gentlemen?
I think that this one has drifted far enough off topic.

Oh go away Keith. This is our Christmas conspiracy theory. We've got to have one. It's traditional.

You owe us at least one secret agenda.

Oh I see you're still on the list for the 3rd? I thought Council Members weren't allowed to dive?

nigelH

[Adrian Kelland]

Oh I see you're still on the list for the 3rd? I thought Council Members weren't allowed to dive?

nigelH

What kind of New Years dive happens on the 3rd? Ya two days late!

Wooses ;-)

Merry Christmas

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Oh I see you're still on the list for the 3rd? I thought Council Members weren't allowed to dive?

Shhhhh!! Don't let on that Council members actually go diving, it will completely ruin our image. So I would like to formally state that I don't know what you're talking about when you mention the UKRS Icebreakers dive at Stoney on the 3rd/4th Jan and I have no idea whose name you have on the list.

Have a good xmas Nigel and see you Saturday week (oops! no I wont, because I don't dive)

Keith L

[Richie771]

And what a great dive the Carnatic was!

Thanks for a great week John, we had some interesting chats at the Dinner table.

Enjoy your New Year.

Richie & Dave

[Paul Leyland]

:=Oh I see you're still on the list for the 3rd? I thought Council Members weren't allowed to dive?
:=
:=nigelH

What kind of New Years dive happens on the 3rd? Ya two days late!

Wooses ;-)

Merry Christmas

Adrian
So Adrian where are you going for a New Years Day Dive?
I've just been down to Exmouth and the surf was pretty good!
Paul

[Adrian Kelland]

:=:=Oh I see you're still on the list for the 3rd? I thought Council Members weren't allowed to dive?
:=:=
:=:=nigelH
:=
:=What kind of New Years dive happens on the 3rd? Ya two days late!
:=
:=Wooses ;-)
:=
:=Merry Christmas
:=
:=Adrian
So Adrian where are you going for a New Years Day Dive?
I've just been down to Exmouth and the surf was pretty good!
Paul

Hi Paul

Could be doing something, depends on weather and night before!

Adrian