CLUB DIVES - RISK ASSESSMENT [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Bill Bird

09-12-2003, 09:23

Matt

09-12-2003, 18:25

Our branch D.O. recently noticed that the first page of the sport diver training section in the Instructor manual talks about having a rescue diver(s) on the boat for sport diver and below. Could somebody clarify/interpret when they feel that this is necessary. If it's for any club dive with sport divers attending, then this as could pose problems for any branch organising dives around slack. If it's only for training dives then what criterion should we apply to make a decision whether cover/rescue divers should be on standby?

Hi Bill

For a definitive answer you should contact Jim Watson at HQ

Earlier this year a group of our divers were turned away from our local training lake on the grounds that they did not have surface cover. I understand that the dive centre had requested clarification from HQ on what BSAC grade could dive with what other BSAC grade and what the surface cover requirements were.

IIRC Technical Services replied that a BSAC Sport Diver trainee does not have all the skills required to rescue their instructor hence requires a standby diver. The standby diver may be qualified Sports or Above.

I am sure you can imagine the reaction from our instructors. The best way I can think to put it is vocal and wide ranging ;-)

The main objection being that two PADI OW divers could dive at this 6m training site without shore cover, whilst a BSAC Ocean Diver and Advanced Diver pair would require a standby. At the request of these instructors I wrote to HQ but unfortunately did not recieve a reply.

If my recall of events is at all inaccurate then I apologise but I am sure that is the guts of it.

I completely agree with you that it introduces a number of practical problems. Teaching SD on a charter trip becomes rather expensive for instance. The upshot for us is that trainee Ocean Divers do not get the opportunity to dive quite so often and that I feel, adds nothing to diver safety.

Talk to technical if your concerned.

Regards
MattS

PeteM

09-12-2003, 19:23

:=Our branch D.O. recently noticed that the first page of the sport diver training section in the Instructor manual talks about having a rescue diver(s) on the boat for sport diver and below. Could somebody clarify/interpret when they feel that this is necessary. If it's for any club dive with sport divers attending, then this as could pose problems for any branch organising dives around slack. If it's only for training dives then what criterion should we apply to make a decision whether cover/rescue divers should be on standby?

Hi Bill

For a definitive answer you should contact Jim Watson at HQ

Earlier this year a group of our divers were turned away from our local training lake on the grounds that they did not have surface cover. I understand that the dive centre had requested clarification from HQ on what BSAC grade could dive with what other BSAC grade and what the surface cover requirements were.

IIRC Technical Services replied that a BSAC Sport Diver trainee does not have all the skills required to rescue their instructor hence requires a standby diver. The standby diver may be qualified Sports or Above.

I am sure you can imagine the reaction from our instructors. The best way I can think to put it is vocal and wide ranging ;-)

The main objection being that two PADI OW divers could dive at this 6m training site without shore cover, whilst a BSAC Ocean Diver and Advanced Diver pair would require a standby. At the request of these instructors I wrote to HQ but unfortunately did not recieve a reply.

If my recall of events is at all inaccurate then I apologise but I am sure that is the guts of it.

I completely agree with you that it introduces a number of practical problems. Teaching SD on a charter trip becomes rather expensive for instance. The upshot for us is that trainee Ocean Divers do not get the opportunity to dive quite so often and that I feel, adds nothing to diver safety.

Talk to technical if your concerned.

The actual problem is worse than just teaching - the wording is (page 117 of instructor manual) "Conduct dives where other divers, capable of providing assistance and rescue management skills, are available at the surface". The only way to read that is there must be a DL or above on the boat at all times, therefore SD's can not dive on normal club dives when everyone goes in in one wave.

Bill's DO (I know him well) has asked for clarification from HQ but when I last spoke to him had not had a reply

Pete

Dave

09-12-2003, 20:18

IIRC Technical Services replied that a BSAC Sport Diver trainee does not have all the skills required to rescue their instructor hence requires a standby diver. The standby diver may be qualified Sports or Above.

I am sure you can imagine the reaction from our instructors. The best way I can think to put it is vocal and wide ranging ;-)

This to me seems pretty sensible and I cannot disagree with this

The main objection being that two PADI OW divers could dive at this 6m training site without shore cover, whilst a BSAC Ocean Diver and Advanced Diver pair would require a standby. At the request of these instructors I wrote to HQ but unfortunately did not recieve a reply.

I do agree that it's odd that they'd let 2 POW divers in unless the site itself was providing cover

I completely agree with you that it introduces a number of practical problems. Teaching SD on a charter trip becomes rather expensive for instance. The upshot for us is that trainee Ocean Divers do not get the opportunity to dive quite so often and that I feel, adds nothing to diver safety.

Conversely, I think that having surface cover does add to diver safety.

Dave

Matt

10-12-2003, 00:22

:=IIRC Technical Services replied that a BSAC Sport Diver trainee does not have all the skills required to rescue their instructor hence requires a standby diver. The standby diver may be qualified Sports or Above.

:=I am sure you can imagine the reaction from our instructors. The best way I can think to put it is vocal and wide ranging ;-)

This to me seems pretty sensible and I cannot disagree with this

I guess you have to keep in mind we are an established branch. Most of our instructors would have taught the old novice course. A Novice 2 recieved training and was assessed in all the basic rescue skills an advanced diver had.

:=The main objection being that two PADI OW divers could dive at this 6m training site without shore cover, whilst a BSAC Ocean Diver and Advanced Diver pair would require a standby. At the request of these instructors I wrote to HQ but unfortunately did not recieve a reply.

I do agree that it's odd that they'd let 2 POW divers in unless the site itself was providing cover

No the site does not provide surface cover. That was the point of asking the training agencies which divers required shore cover. AIUI when asked PADI claimed that two OWs had been trained to dive as a buddy pair without the need for shore cover.

:=I completely agree with you that it introduces a number of practical problems. Teaching SD on a charter trip becomes rather expensive for instance. The upshot for us is that trainee Ocean Divers do not get the opportunity to dive quite so often and that I feel, adds nothing to diver safety.

Conversely, I think that having surface cover does add to diver safety.

I tend to think that if you allow fledging divers to dive in suitable conditions, with experienced buddies they become safer.

Denying that opportunity in order to protect the 1 in a 1000 that may need a standby diver penalises the other 999. I would very much like to know exactly how many training incidents have occurred in BSAC branch training where a standby diver would have made a blind bit of difference. I suspect you could count it with one finger.

Maybe what we should be debateing is why ODs are thought incapable of rescueing their buddy.

Regards
MattS

Dave

10-12-2003, 03:39

:=:=The main objection being that two PADI OW divers could dive at this 6m training site without shore cover, whilst a BSAC Ocean Diver and Advanced Diver pair would require a standby. At the request of these instructors I wrote to HQ but unfortunately did not recieve a reply.

:=I do agree that it's odd that they'd let 2 POW divers in unless the site itself was providing cover

No the site does not provide surface cover. That was the point of asking the training agencies which divers required shore cover. AIUI when asked PADI claimed that two OWs had been trained to dive as a buddy pair without the need for shore cover.

An interesting response from PADI of which I am surprised.

I tend to think that if you allow fledging divers to dive in suitable conditions, with experienced buddies they become
safer.

How does not providing surface cover to deal with emergencies assist in this?

Denying that opportunity in order to protect the 1 in a 1000 that may need a standby diver penalises the other 999. I would very much like to know exactly how many training incidents have occurred in BSAC branch training where a standby diver would have made a blind bit of difference. I suspect you could count it with one finger.

There is no opportunity being denied in the experience development. Its like arguing that fire extinguishers are bad because not having them would encourage people to be more careful about not starting fires. The inexperienced still have the opportunity to gain in skills by diving with more experienced people. The difference is that if something happens, there is surface support to hand to assist.

Maybe what we should be debateing is why ODs are thought incapable of rescueing their buddy.

Because they have not had suitable rescue training yet ( same as a Padi OW imo which is why I am suprised that PADI would have claimed that the buddies need no surface support. )

Dave

PeteM

10-12-2003, 08:34

Denying that opportunity in order to protect the 1 in a 1000 that may need a standby diver penalises the other 999. I would very much like to know exactly how many training incidents have occurred in BSAC branch training where a standby diver would have made a blind bit of difference. I suspect you could count it with one finger.

Read the manual its not just about training!

paul b

10-12-2003, 12:25

PeteM

10-12-2003, 12:45

Could you please find out from your D.O. exactly where in the manual this section is.

I had a quick look last night but could not see anything along these lines, although it could just be my old eyes failing me?

Page 117 - its also quote in my earlier post
<a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/4478.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/4478.html</a>

Philip Smith

11-12-2003, 07:57

The only way to read that is there must be a DL or above on the boat at all times, therefore SD's can not dive on normal club dives when everyone goes in in one wave.

I am not aware that BSAC has ever advocated or condoned that everyone go in in one wave.

Philip Smith

PeteM

11-12-2003, 10:14

:=The only way to read that is there must be a DL or above on the boat at all times, therefore SD's can not dive on normal club dives when everyone goes in in one wave.

I am not aware that BSAC has ever advocated or condoned that everyone go in in one wave.

Equally up until now I don't think they have specifically excluded it, in fact the SDP specifically states that in most cases the stand-by diver will be in the water with you - see
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/sdpqz.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/sdpqz.htm</a> "On the majority of dives your stand-by diver is your buddy" whereas now when diving with SD's you are effectively compelled to always have people waiting on the boat/shore just in case

Pete

Bill Bird

12-12-2003, 09:37

Mike Clack

12-12-2003, 16:25

Many thanks to everyone who's contributed, but what I'd really like is somebody from HQ/Committee to qualify the situation and did this through the forum's. Firstly to raise awareness and get opinion and secondly that if a response was forthcoming then we could all learn from the guidance.

So is someone from big BSAC going to provide some guidance on this issue?

Regards.

Bill

Hi Bill,
In your posting , you say: ' . . . the Instructor manual talks about having a rescue diver(s) on the boat for sport diver and below . . .'
We assume that you refer to page 117, under the sub-heading: 'Definition of a Sport Diver' and in particular to the penultimate bullet point? The actual text in the Instructor Manual states:
conduct dives where other divers, capable of providing assistance and rescue management skills, are available at the surface
You may have been misinformed - there is no mention of 'rescue' diver(s) or a boat, thus 'on the surface' could include in the water.
Also, this single bullet item could easily be taken out of context if not viewed in conjunction with the other seven bulleted points in the same section.
The statement doesn't mean that Sports Divers can only dive if these conditions are met. This means that a Sports Diver can be considered experienced enough to be involved in a level of diving that requires essential surface cover or support.
A Sports Diver will have sufficient rescue skills to be able to assist a buddy at the surface in distress and to summon help from the surface cover - whether shore party, boat cox's or standby diver.
The last bullet item under the same heading in the Manual is:
conduct dives within BSAC safe diving practice recommendations

Here is an extract from 'Safe Diving':
Stand-by Divers
On the majority of dives your stand-by diver is your buddy. A stand-by diver is usually only required when a solo dive, using a rope tender, is in operation.
Generally of course, all BSAC Branch diving should consider surface cover appropriate to the risk assessment for a particular site and make judgements accordingly.
I hope that this has helped to clarify the interpretation. It is essential to view all aspects of definitions as a whole.

Edward Haynes

12-12-2003, 16:57

Bill

My opinion is not official, I am just a volunteer, that said I have had a little input to the Branch Officers Handbook (BOH).

The current BOH places a requirement on Branch Committees to ensure activities, diving and social are conducted safely. The recommended way of doing this is to carry out a Risk Assessment of the activity. An example Risk Assessment form is provided (see link), but Branches are at liberty to produce their own to meet their specific circumstances.

So in answer to your question, a Risk Assessment is required (IMHO) the outcome of which will answer your DO's specific question for that site and day.

Edward Haynes

Our branch D.O. recently noticed that the first page of the sport diver training section in the Instructor manual talks about having a rescue diver(s) on the boat for sport diver and below. Could somebody clarify/interpret when they feel that this is necessary. If it's for any club dive with sport divers attending, then this as could pose problems for any branch organising dives around slack. If it's only for training dives then what criterion should we apply to make a decision whether cover/rescue divers should be on standby?

Thanks.

Bill

PeteM

12-12-2003, 18:32

You may have been misinformed - there is no mention of 'rescue' diver(s) or a boat, thus 'on the surface' could include in the water.

But on the surface in the water does not help does it?

If they have to be available on the surface they can not dive, therefore the standard way of diving from boats of everyone going in on the same slack water can not be accomodated. Therefore we must have non diving rescue manager(s) on the boat whilst sports divers are diving.

>The statement doesn't mean that Sports Divers can only dive
>if these conditions are met. This means that a Sports Diver
>can be considered experienced enough to be involved in a
>level of diving that requires essential surface cover or
>support.

That's not what it says!

What I'm hoping is this is a miss worded part of the manual and we can get a correction out asap because at the moment it is not possible to arrange dives involving sports divers in my branch

Pete

John Williams

12-12-2003, 22:56

Are you seriously telling me that when you go diving off a boat that EVERYONE gets off the boat at the same time?

Or that at some remote shore dive everyone hits the water without leaving at least word ashore as to what you are planning?

Do your risk assessment:
1) If you think it warrants a fully kitted standby diver to sit on the tube/gunwale for the duration - then organise it.

2) If you think that the two divers left in the boat as crew (with their kit set up ready for their own dive) who leave the boat as soon as the first pair back are recovered - then organise it.

3) If you think that the charter-boat skipper can provide adequate cover, and call for help, without a kitted diver available - then allow all your divers off at the same time.

4) If you think that leaving someone in the car reading a book on the harbour wall to call out the Coastguard/other divers in the harbour when you wave & shout is enough. Then do that!

5) If you think it's a busy enough site and the next boat can provide cover to you (providing that you are prepared to do the same for them at some point) then this is OK too!

All that the BSAC is saying is that you should do the risk assessment, consider the options - choose one and then record your plans somewhere in case you have to justify then later.

Safe Diving

John

dave covey

13-12-2003, 04:23

PeteM

13-12-2003, 10:25

Are you seriously telling me that when you go diving off a boat that EVERYONE gets off the boat at the same time?

Except the skipper yes - and in my experience this is the norm

Or that at some remote shore dive everyone hits the water without leaving at least word ashore as to what you are planning?

I don't do shore diving

Do your risk assessment:

All that the BSAC is saying is that you should do the risk assessment, consider the options - choose one and then record your plans somewhere in case you have to justify then later.

No it isn't - it is saying that you should do your risk assessment within certain criteria - I, along with others, are trying to establish what those criteria are - which personally I don't think is unreasonable.

One of those criteria *seems* to have changed with the introduction of the new DTP, Bill's DO has asked for a formal response of HQ and not got it, we have now asked for a response on here and got a vague one that does not answer the question and indeed brings up the point that for operations involving SD's the SDP's and the DTP are apparently out of step.

Just to clarify what we are asking is

The DTP wording currently effectively bans SD's diving in any circumstances were a rescue managment trained person is not constantly available at the surface - was this the intention (can we have a yes or no answer)?

Safe Diving

Always

Pete

Edward Haynes

13-12-2003, 12:54

Pete

I must come to John's defence here.

If something where to go wrong and a claim was made against the Dive Marshal or/and the Branch Diving Officer the record of the Risk Assessment (a recommendation from the BOH) for the activities being carried out, could make the difference of being found negligent or not.

With the nature of our sport and the varying sites and conditions it is unreasonable to expect a blanket ruling. After all BSAC training should (IMHO) be producing 'thinking' divers. *** Please lets not go down that line ... ***

Now if any group of divers decide not to record their Risk Assessment (we all do it in our head anyway) that's their prerogative. Now take 2 Sport Divers who go off diving together, their Risk Assessment (completed before diving) should take the availability of 'rescue management trained' surface support into account. It does however; IMHO follow that a similar consideration would apply to all dives ? irrespective of the diving grade(s) of those involved.

Edward

:=All that the BSAC is saying is that you should do the risk assessment, consider the options - choose one and then record your plans somewhere in case you have to justify then later.

No it isn't - it is saying that you should do your risk assessment within certain criteria - I, along with others, are trying to establish what those criteria are - which personally I don't think is unreasonable.

One of those criteria *seems* to have changed with the introduction of the new DTP, Bill's DO has asked for a formal response of HQ and not got it, we have now asked for a response on here and got a vague one that does not answer the question and indeed brings up the point that for operations involving SD's the SDP's and the DTP are apparently out of step.

Just to clarify what we are asking is

The DTP wording currently effectively bans SD's diving in any circumstances were a rescue managment trained person is not constantly available at the surface - was this the intention (can we have a yes or no answer)?

:=
:=Safe Diving
:=

Always

Pete

PeteM

13-12-2003, 13:32

Pete

I must come to John's defence here.

If something where to go wrong and a claim was made against the Dive Marshal or/and the Branch Diving Officer the record of the Risk Assessment (a recommendation from the BOH) for the activities being carried out, could make the difference of being found negligent or not.

With the nature of our sport and the varying sites and conditions it is unreasonable to expect a blanket ruling. After all BSAC training should (IMHO) be producing 'thinking' divers. *** Please lets not go down that line ... ***

Now if any group of divers decide not to record their Risk Assessment (we all do it in our head anyway) that's their prerogative. Now take 2 Sport Divers who go off diving together, their Risk Assessment (completed before diving) should take the availability of 'rescue management trained' surface support into account. It does however; IMHO follow that a similar consideration would apply to all dives ? irrespective of the diving grade(s) of those involved.

Edward

1) Where do I say don't do a risk assessment? 2) Risk assessment is a complete red herring, we are trying to establish the rules for what a Sports Diver can and can not do.

All I am trying to do is clarify whether a new rule has been added to the requirements for sport divers diving.

Pre new DTP the definition of Sport diver was "A diver who has gained open water diving and diver rescue experience and is considered ready to take part in dives partnered by another diver. [Snip bit about ACI's teaching]. BSAC Sports Divers are restricted to a maximum depth of 35 meters*." - it now includes an additional restriction, given equal weight as the 35m depth restriction, that a rescue manager must be available at the surface.

If this is the intention then we need to publicise it as I have been diving with area coaches and regional coaches this year that broke this rule. If its not the intention then we need a correction.

Pete