New BOH online good - Point/print size bad!

[terryh]

Just attempted to download a copy of the latest BOH.

Trouble is that the PDF file is 105 pages long (660k).
Probably because it's written in a massive sub 14pt!

Can't even get it to print odd/even pages to reduce this down
to 53 A4's.

Ok so let's do it in Word. Point size is now much better at
sub 10 point, but when you press printer friendly you get open
ended pages. Again without odd/even two sided options.

So come on BSAC well done with the BOH online, just needs a
little more thought as to how it's going to get printed.

TerryH

[Owen Morris]

Just attempted to download a copy of the latest BOH.

Trouble is that the PDF file is 105 pages long (660k).
Probably because it's written in a massive sub 14pt!

Can't even get it to print odd/even pages to reduce this down
to 53 A4's.

Ok so let's do it in Word. Point size is now much better at
sub 10 point, but when you press printer friendly you get open
ended pages. Again without odd/even two sided options.

So come on BSAC well done with the BOH online, just needs a
little more thought as to how it's going to get printed.

TerryH







Terry,
I don?t think this is really a problem with the BOH. It?s better to have a large font that is easy for everyone to read, rather than a small font, which can be a strain on the eyes. To reduce the number of printed pages, I just downloaded the PDF and opened it up in ACROBAT V5.0 and when it came to printing it out I used the automatic scale option to print on A4. The even and odd page option for printing worked fine. I have also printed a copy using the printer options to fit 2 pages per side of A4 giving a grand total of 27 pages, which are still easy to read.
Regards,
Owen

[Rich]

Just attempted to download a copy of the latest BOH.

Trouble is that the PDF file is 105 pages long (660k).
Probably because it's written in a massive sub 14pt!

Can't even get it to print odd/even pages to reduce this down
to 53 A4's.

Ok so let's do it in Word. Point size is now much better at
sub 10 point, but when you press printer friendly you get open
ended pages. Again without odd/even two sided options.

So come on BSAC well done with the BOH online, just needs a
little more thought as to how it's going to get printed.

TerryH








....terry - you MUST be bored...

Rich.

[terryh]

:=
Terry,
I don?t think this is really a problem with the BOH. It?s better to have a large font that is easy for everyone to read, rather than a small font, which can be a strain on the eyes. To reduce the number of printed pages, I just downloaded the PDF and opened it up in ACROBAT V5.0 and when it came to printing it out I used the automatic scale option to print on A4. The even and odd page option for printing worked fine. I have also printed a copy using the printer options to fit 2 pages per side of A4 giving a grand total of 27 pages, which are still easy to read.
Regards,
Owen

It's all right Owen, I can get round it. Trouble is that for
online documents to be successful they need to be pretty idiot
proof if you want to download them.

A non-computer literate person would now have 105 A4 single
sided pages.

Not good is it?

TerryH

[terryh]

....terry - you MUST be bored...

Rich.

No. Sadly the SU has asked at the last minute for our risk
assessments and operating procedures etc.

Most of it is in the BOH. It's easier to give them a copy.
So I need to download quick, which is why I wasnt happy to be
confronted with 105 pages of large print!

TerryH

[Owen Morris]

It's all right Owen, I can get round it. Trouble is that for
online documents to be successful they need to be pretty idiot
proof if you want to download them.

A non-computer literate person would now have 105 A4 single
sided pages.

Not good is it?

TerryH

Sorry, but I think it is pretty good and that you are looking for a problem that isn?t really there.

To download and print the document is straight forward and you don?t need any technical knowledge to do it, just use the basic print options available on most printers. Acrobat will normally prompt you if it needs scaling for a different paper size. If people can?t follow or understand these basics I doubt they would be even trying to download documents in the first place.
Cheers,
Owen

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

It's all right Owen, I can get round it. Trouble is that for
online documents to be successful they need to be pretty idiot
proof if you want to download them.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions Terry, I'm sure Edward will pick it up and note it. The main problem from an IT perspective is that if you try too hard to make something idiot proof all you do is create a better class of idiot :-)) [I've had nearly 30 years bitter experience of this, trust me on this one...]

Thanks

Keith L

[PeteM]

No. Sadly the SU has asked at the last minute for our risk
assessments and operating procedures etc.

Most of it is in the BOH. It's easier to give them a copy.
So I need to download quick, which is why I wasnt happy to be
confronted with 105 pages of large print!

TerryH

Stick it on a CD and give them that

[terryh]

:=
Sorry, but I think it is pretty good and that you are looking for a problem that isn?t really there.

To download and print the document is straight forward and you don?t need any technical knowledge to do it, just use the basic print options available on most printers. Acrobat will normally prompt you if it needs scaling for a different paper size. If people can?t follow or understand these basics I doubt they would be even trying to download documents in the first place.
Cheers,
Owen

Basic print options:
Download PDF file & Press print.

Result should = Minimal print run of legible pages (not 105).

If your saying that I need to rescale, go into print services.
Pick odds/evens etc.etc. then it's not really user friendly
is it?

One of the main arguments against web based downloads of
originally printed media, is that you need to be computer
literate to get it.

You and I know that it's easy, but others ......

We are at the start of what is a great leap forward for BSAC.
Online downloadable info. That's why it is extremely important
that it is easy to download it.

TerryH

[John Williams]

:=No. Sadly the SU has asked at the last minute for our risk
:=assessments and operating procedures etc.
:=
:=Most of it is in the BOH. It's easier to give them a copy.
:=So I need to download quick, which is why I wasnt happy to be
:=confronted with 105 pages of large print!
:=
:=TerryH

Stick it on a CD and give them that


Or...since you ARE computer literate ...go into print options and do all the twiddly bits to make it do EXACTLY what you want it to do.

John
;-)

[Andrew Taylor]

I saw the new BOH on the BSAC web site and thought "what a good idea; I can use that." (No, I'm not be sarcastic.)

I downloaded the whole document (didn't take very long) and I can now print off any page(s) to show at the club to settle pretty much most discussions.

We (the Branch committee) are at the moment in great debate about appropriate Risk Assessments and how they should be produced; and what do you know, there is a sample ready for us to work on.

Thank you (the BSAC) for working for the little minnows out here struggling with the burden of too many things to do with too few people in the club willing to do it (you what I mean - physically doing something rather than whining about something.) The online BOH is a big help. Thank you.

Andrew Taylor
TO, Hyndburn BSAC 0747

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thank you (the BSAC) for working for the little minnows out here struggling with the burden of too many things to do with too few people in the club willing to do it (you what I mean - physically doing something rather than whining about something.) The online BOH is a big help. Thank you.

Thanks for the support Andrew, but it's not this faceless thing called "The BSAC" you should be thanking - it's ordinary members just like you and all of our other hard working members out there. The new BOH was taken on and produced by an ordinary member in their spare time, the result has been a great benefit to the club IMHO. So that's all it takes, just somebody to believe in something enough to try and get things done, things like the new BOH can be the result.

So if anybody else has some bright ideas then we would be interested in hearing them, but we've probably heard them before. Better still, if somebody would like to give us a hand actually doing it then you will be very welcome indeed! It's our club, the likes of me, the rest of Council and the teams are just trying to look after it for you. The more help in doing that the better :-)

Keith L

[terryh]

Or...since you ARE computer literate ...go into print options and do all the twiddly bits to make it do EXACTLY what you want it to do.


Sigh. Still don't get it do you?

This is absolutely NOT a pop at ANYBODY who has done a
BRILLIANT job of getting the BOH online.

1) If you do a project with the magnitude of the BOH, then
chances are that somewhere it needs to be
corrected/amended/tweaked etc. This does not reflect one
iota on the individuals that did it. It is a fact of life that
when you are engrossed in a project some of the simpler things
can go amiss.

2) Just because somebody has put in lots of work does not give
cart blance to dimiss any critiscm/advice or genuine need for
correction.

Gentlemen. Can we get away from what seems like an ingrained
response that if anybody queries any part of work done by a
member he/she gets the "he works hard for BSAC" routine.
Fact - We all work hard for BSAC!

AGAIN this is NOT a go at those who did all the hard work.

We have a new departure. Online downloads of BSAC media.
For it to be trully successful it needs to be blindingly
simple. Press print and get a legible copy on minimum pages
and no John that doesnt mean "doing all the twiddy bits".

KISS

TerryH

[Andy Nye]

Hi all,

I go along with what Terry i saying whole heartly.

I have had a go at printing out the BOH,using the method of others in resetting printer options etc, and found it hard and fiddley and not getting the end result i wanted.

I suggest that a way of printed is suggested from terry's comments.

Andy

( who up to now , thought could operate a pc and printer ) ;-(

[webmaster]

I found the points made most interesting but have noted that everyone wants to print out the whole book. I had imagined that it would be helpful to make it as easy as possible to print the page on the screen - using the "printer friendly" link.
If, as mentioned, you are wanting to lend weight to a discussion then it's so quick and easy to just print the page on the screen.
A lot of emphasis was made on making individual items easy to find - did it work?
My vision of this section of the website is to provide an on-going and up to date information service, rather than a copy of a book. If required, we can even expand it outside the traditional list of topics contained in the BOH.

Mike

[john kendall]

I found the points made most interesting but have noted that everyone wants to print out the whole book. I had imagined that it would be helpful to make it as easy as possible to print the page on the screen - using the "printer friendly" link.
If, as mentioned, you are wanting to lend weight to a discussion then it's so quick and easy to just print the page on the screen.
A lot of emphasis was made on making individual items easy to find - did it work?
My vision of this section of the website is to provide an on-going and up to date information service, rather than a copy of a book. If required, we can even expand it outside the traditional list of topics contained in the BOH.

When I am trying to read something fairly sizeable, I find it much easier if it is on real paper, rather than on the screen.

Also, If I print out the entire document, it allows me to have a copy in my file, that I can take to committee meetings, pub meets, leave at the kit store etc as a reference.

I approve of the Online BOH, I think it is a job well done, and I like the fact that we now have online documentation, Well done all involved, but I also see terry's point, If you are going to have a downloadable copy of the entire thing, please make it sensible to print it.

John

[Mike Halligan]

Hi, Mike,

I wouldn't want to print the whole book, as I would then have to punch it, find a binder for it, and shelf space for the binder, and also remember to check my copy's up to date _before_ referring to it. However, anything longer than a screenful is of dubious value to me until printed. (One needs a touch like a midwife to scroll accurately in Word 6 or later or in Acrobat, I find)

Yes, the indexing is a boon and on behalf of the ham-fisted, thanks for the page-print utility. I did originally suggest that BoH 2000 was good enough to be left alone. I was wrong and am duly grateful.

Mike

[Philip Smith]

A lot of emphasis was made on making individual items easy to find - did it work?

The search function works Ok, but a slight glitch is that the search box at the top of the page of results is for searching the whole BSAC site, not just the BOH, so if you want to do a second search within the BOH, you need to go back to it.

I suggest that the very long menu of section and sub-section headings in the right-hand panel should by default show only the main section headings, which individually expand to reveal the sub-section headings when clicked on.

Philip

[iainmsmith]

When I am trying to read something fairly sizeable, I find it much easier if it is on real paper, rather than on the screen.

Also, If I print out the entire document, it allows me to have a copy in my file, that I can take to committee meetings, pub meets, leave at the kit store etc as a reference.

True...however, an alternative is to get one of the free PDA .pdf readers, at which point you can carry the BoH in your pocket.

Then again, JK, that would mean that you had to buy some batteries... :-)

Iain

[Andrew Taylor]

I agree with the principle of designing the on-line BOH for printing off individual pages. I envisage the need to produce a hand out to settle slight differences of opinion, not reproducing the entire book. Access to all information is one thing, keeping a printed version of the whole document is (or should be) ancient history.

Adobe Acrobat Reader is free to all at <a href="http://www.adobe.co.uk/products/acrobat/main.html" >http://www.adobe.co.uk/products/acrobat/main.html</a>

Thanks to all in producing a worthwhile, much improved, on-line document.

Andrew Taylor
TO, Hyndburn BSAC 0747