I am confused! [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Melanopterus

08-09-2003, 19:54

TerryH

08-09-2003, 21:16

I thought that the London International Dive Show was a BSAC
thing but BSAC DIVE magazine seems to be advertising a
different diving show at the same time in Birmingham. Is this
the same show as the Birmingham dive show which I thought
usually happened in the Fall? Which is the better (BSAC) show?

Nope, LIDS is run by the Eaton family dynasty (does that mean
they have to wear shoulder pads). They also run the
Birmingham NEC show normally in October (this year it's
November) and every two years Dive Scotland. It's all part of
the Diver magazine group.
They use to be in bed with BSAC, which meant that they were
often associated with BSAC and the shows were seen as BSAC
shows.

A few years ago now, BSAC renegotiated the contract and it went
to another magazine, Dive.

Diver still put on the best and largest shows and BSAC still
attend in the same way that you will see PADI, SAA & TDI. So
although they are there and it all seems the same, it is not a
BSAC show, but a Diver show.

So if you are following, me so far. What of this other show put
on by Dive? Doesnt take Einstein to work out the figures at a
rate of ?149-?174+vat a sq/mt. Smallest stand is about 6sq/m
so that's ?1044. Largest, well say 6x8m=48m = ?8352. There's
about 300 stands. So let's say a very rough ?4000 per stand x
300 = ?1.2m. Too much? Ok lets say ?2000x300 = ?600,000.

Doesnt matter which way you do the figures, even after all the
expenses. This is a lot of dosh.

Every year Dive (and others) look to cut into this market.
Others have tried and failed (Dive Shop). So why not put one on
at the same time far enough away to attract local punters or as
part of another show (watersports/ski show etc.).

So the biger LIDS & NEC gets the more you wull see rival
outfits having a go. Chances of suceeding. Nil.

And if in doubt .....

<a href="http://www.diveshows.co.uk/" >http://www.diveshows.co.uk/</a>

TerryH

John Bantin

09-09-2003, 17:49

Sorry to pop your balloon Terry H but I think , if I am not mistaken, you will find that the BSAC still gets a share of the profits from the LIDS show in London. Therefore it is technically a BSAC show. Maybe someone from HQ can answer that.

IMHO the other shows seem to fail because either the organisers do not want retailing at the show or they try to arrange price-fixing with exhibitors which is dangerous because if they get caught it carries heavy fines under EC law - a large percentage of a company?s turn-over. (Ask Hasbro and Toys-R-Us.)

Dive Shop failed because it was a trade show that the diving trade did not want to support.

Now some may not like the car-boot-sale aspect of Dive Shows (I am not sure I do) but that seems to be what the public wants - or it would not happen.

I am all for widening the market and those intrepid pioneers who exhibit diving-related products at the Outdoors Show may not make much profit but they should be congratulated. More divers, more readers for Diver!

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

09-09-2003, 18:45

Sorry to pop your balloon Terry H but I think , if I am not mistaken, you will find that the BSAC still gets a share of the profits from the LIDS show in London. Therefore it is technically a BSAC show. Maybe someone from HQ can answer that.

Of course I can John. The BSAC has a long standing arrangement with Diver that the London show is supported by the BSAC, and yes we do receive some income under this arrangement. But please don't expect the facts to get in the way of a good Terry rant, they never have before ;-)

I am all for widening the market and those intrepid pioneers who exhibit diving-related products at the Outdoors Show may not make much profit but they should be congratulated. More divers, more readers for Diver!

That's exactly the point of the new show I believe John. It's not a pure dive show, it's not in competition to the excellent LIDS and NEC dedicated dives shows, it's a section within the much wider brand of outdoor pursuits. As such I share your optimism that the attendance of the diving industry at such a show will reach potential divers who who never dream of coming to a dedicated dive show. That in itself has to be good for the sport overall.

Regards

Keith L

TerryH

09-09-2003, 19:01

Of course I can John. The BSAC has a long standing arrangement with Diver that the London show is supported by the BSAC, and yes we do receive some income under this arrangement. But please don't expect the facts to get in the way of a good Terry rant, they never have before ;-)

I think you need to check on your definition of a rant. Ok so
I missed the fact that BSAC get a sub for LIDS. They dont get
one for the NEC though, do they?

Mind you depends what you mean by a sub. How many sq/mts is
your stand?

If you re-read the post I'didnt take a pop at BSAC nor did I
say that the Diver ran shows were anything other than the best
ones.

You want to stop seeing demons Keith. Your starting to get
paranoid. Who said that!!!!!!

TerryH :-)

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

09-09-2003, 23:36

You want to stop seeing demons Keith. Your starting to get
paranoid. Who said that!!!!!!

I am not paranoid Terry, I =KNOW= you're all out to get me ;-)

K

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

09-09-2003, 23:49

I think you need to check on your definition of a rant. Ok so
I missed the fact that BSAC get a sub for LIDS. They dont get
one for the NEC though, do they?

No we do not get any direct sub for the NEC show.

Mind you depends what you mean by a sub. How many sq/mts is
your stand?

Well my definition of a 'sub' in the context that you're talking about is something that makes the club money. Despite the stand, travel, accomodation and staff costs at both shows we make an overall profit for the club. So the shows cost the members nothing in terms of BSAC costs, in fact we MAKE some money for the benefit of the club and all of our members. Plus of course the presence/marketting value that you can't put a direct price on.

That's why we attend shows Terry, that's why we will continue to attend them.

Regards

Keith L

TerryH

10-09-2003, 16:19

That's why we attend shows Terry, that's why we will continue to attend them.

Of course Keith, never said it was anything else apart from a
win-win for BSAC. Mind you now that you mention it .......

As you know I work at the show on another stand. My job is to
sell the company and its product (diving).

So please dont take this as anything other than a personal
observation (it's not a rant). I have no doubt that the staff
on the stand all have important roles within the BSAC office,
but can you tell me how they can really sell BSAC on the stand?

In fact wouldnt it be more effective to have divers, not admin
staff who can sell the club. How about getting more regional/area coaches on there. Divers on the blunt end who can
actually talk BSAC. Not just to point out who you have to wait
by to get an awnser!

TerryH

Lindsey Doyle

10-09-2003, 20:44

In fact wouldnt it be more effective to have divers, not admin
staff who can sell the club. How about getting more regional/area coaches on there. Divers on the blunt end who can
actually talk BSAC. Not just to point out who you have to wait
by to get an awnser!

At every recent show when I've had a question to ask (as TO, then, so usually a training query, eg new DTP)there has always been someone who can answer it. Many post-holders are experienced divers, and I think most admin staff have at least done a try dive!!!I've often seen some voluntary staff there too, eg coaches.
My only gripe was, they wouldn't let an "old" SD buy a new SD studybook to read before he started on new DL course...think that was unnecessarily petty.
Especially as it seems anyone (not just NQIs ) can get Instructor Handbook.

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

10-09-2003, 20:46

I have no doubt that the staff
on the stand all have important roles within the BSAC office,
but can you tell me how they can really sell BSAC on the stand?

We?re not only selling we?re also providing a service to our members and potential members. Representatives from both Membership and Technical are always very busy with both member enquiries and new member enquiries, we actually sign up a lot of people on cross-overs at the shows. There?s also Council around and about as well, some good networking always goes on and we?ve normally got a schedule full of meetings. So it?s not just the show and selling things, we advise our members, we answer questions, we make contacts?

In fact wouldnt it be more effective to have divers, not admin
staff who can sell the club. How about getting more regional/area
coaches on there. Divers on the blunt end who can
actually talk BSAC. Not just to point out who you have to wait
by to get an awnser!

Errr? we do that as well! There?s always somebody from coaching around, regional coaches often come along. You?ll normally find somebody (all volunteers, not staff) from the ITS side as well. Council are of course not staff and all are divers, some regional (or ex regional) coaches, some involved in local area work, some involved in ITS. [The exception is the Council geek, the BSAC Anorak In Chief, he?s only a DL and doesn?t do anything like that]. Then there?s NDC and the rebreathers, the RB try dive pool has been a huge success at all of the shows, it books solid first thing every morning and we keep getting asked for more!

So thanks for the suggestion Terry, we?re always looking for ways that we can improve things, but as a principle everything that you?ve suggested is already being done.

Anyway, I hope that this little lot answers the original question as well. The BSAC attend several shows each year because it is worth while doing so, it benefits the club in several ways. Also the new dive show isn?t - it?s a combined Outdoor Pursuits show and is not in any way in competition with the already established shows.

So - see you all at the NEC! I?ll probably come along for a day.

Regards

Keith L

sarah clarke

11-09-2003, 10:32

I seem to remember that BSAC attended several 'general interest' shows - travel and sport related - in the past, but stopped doing it because it was very expensive and time consuming. While I'm sure its great for HQ staff to be able to talk to people about BSAC and gain a few crossovers, if it was really that easy to recruit people wouldn't our membership be rising rather than falling?
I go to the Boat Show at Earls Court every year and the number of diving related stands has shrunk and shrunk - Andark being the notable exception, probably because they sell sailing gear! I might be wrong, but these experiences suggest that promoting diving, diving goods and diving services, at more general events is rather tricky.

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

11-09-2003, 11:45

Thanks for the feedback Sarah

I seem to remember that BSAC attended several 'general interest' shows - travel and sport related - in the past, but stopped doing it because it was very expensive and time consuming. While I'm sure its great for HQ staff to be able to talk to people about BSAC and gain a few crossovers, if it was really that easy to recruit people wouldn't our membership be rising rather than falling?

The subject of membership numbers is an entirely different subject! Yes they have been falling but this is more in relationship to society and people's expectations rather than the BSAC itself, all member driven clubs in all areas of activity face similar pressures.

However, that doesn't mean we're just going to use that as an excuse and give up. We currently have an extensive membership survey underway, some of you may already have been contacted (please respond). We're going to be using the results of that and various other strategies to increase membership.

I go to the Boat Show at Earls Court every year and the number of diving related stands has shrunk and shrunk - Andark being the notable exception, probably because they sell sailing gear! I might be wrong, but these experiences suggest that promoting diving, diving goods and diving services, at more general events is rather tricky.

I tend to agree, we have also learnt from our past experiences and some shows are simply not worth it. The new Outdoor Pursuits show may be worth while, we wont know unless we try. It's different to your example of the Boat Show in that diving clearly 'fits' into the overall theme of the show a bit better than into the Boat Show (if you get my gist).

I don't actually know if we will be attending, there's something somewhere within my reams of emails about it but I'm not sure whether the decision has been made [I could be wrong on this]. However, for EVERY show that we attend there is a full cost/benefit projection and justification produced before we decide, if we do go we monitor the actuals against the expected.

So it's not just "Oh look, a show, I suppose the BSAC had better go...", we look at each one on its merits and we review the actual performance to feed into future decisions. So whilst I share your view that such shows do have an element of risk we treat them in a very business like manner, we know the risks and we assess them.

We might not get it right every single time (show me somebody who has never made a mistake and I'll show you somebody who never tries anything!) but in the 3 or 4 years I've been on Council we've been handling the issue of show attendance as I have described above and it seems to be working.

I hope that clarifies things Sarah, attending shows is not something that we do lightly.

Regards

Keith L

Vic

11-09-2003, 12:56

> The subject of membership numbers is an entirely different
> subject! Yes they have been falling but this is more in
> relationship to society and people's expectations rather than
> the BSAC itself

Oooh, be *very* caeful with that assessment.

As I've said once or twice before, retention is much. much more important than recruitment. I've spoken to a large number of ex-BSAC members, and without exception, the reason they've given me is that they're tired of BSAC trying to restrict their diving.

Now I'm not claiming that this is in any way a scientific study, nor that it represents anything like a statistically significant sample. What I am claiming is that care needs to be taken that we don't act on distorted data.

I don't know if this is still the policy, but leaving members used to be sent a questionnaire about their reasons for leaving. I discovered this at the same time as three members of my acquaintance had decided to leave, so I watched the process. Of those three, only one actually received a questionnaire, and that was some months (nine, IIRC) after she'd left. By the time it arrived, it was no longer considered "important", so it didn't get returned.

So is this example repeated across the country. I don't know. Does this questionnaire still get sent out? Do we have any figures as to what proportion are returned? Interested minds, and all that...

Vic.

TerryH

11-09-2003, 13:34

As with any organisation it's almost too easy to take a pop,
but my main gripe with BSAC is almost a total lack of current
information.

Many a time we have had endless debates on this fora concerning
BSAC issues. Keith is about the only council member prepared
to put his head over the paraphet. Might not agree with him
(rarely do), but I do respect & appreciate that he is trying to
keep us informed.

Maybe, just maybe, a quick and well thought out response would
do more to retain those senior divers (the engine room of
clubs) that ARE looking elsewhere. Not because they want
to, but because the lack of a definative awnser means they
feel they have to.

TerryH

PS: Nice to get a one line post from the Vice-chair the other
day. I make that 14 posts now in 2 years. Mind you it's a better
average then Phil Harrisons.

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

11-09-2003, 15:00

OK, I'm more than happy to discuss these issues if you want to, but this isn't the thread/forum to do it in. If you want to raise the subject(s) over on Club Matters I'll respond there.

K

Alan Taylor

11-09-2003, 17:30

Thanks for the feedback Sarah

:=I seem to remember that BSAC attended several 'general interest' shows - travel and sport related - in the past, but stopped doing it because it was very expensive and time consuming. While I'm sure its great for HQ staff to be able to talk to people about BSAC and gain a few crossovers, if it was really that easy to recruit people wouldn't our membership be rising rather than falling?

The subject of membership numbers is an entirely different subject! Yes they have been falling but this is more in relationship to society and people's expectations rather than the BSAC itself, all member driven clubs in all areas of activity face similar pressures.

However, that doesn't mean we're just going to use that as an excuse and give up. We currently have an extensive membership survey underway, some of you may already have been contacted (please respond). We're going to be using the results of that and various other strategies to increase membership.

Extensive membership survey? I am just a humble BSAC diver who may have missed something here. Some members have been contacted?(please respond) I dont seem to remember being contacted because i would have 'responded' If this is an extensive membership survey why haven't all members been contacted? I am all for increasing members for the worlds biggest diving club feed back does help because it was at my suggestion that the recent 'learn to dive' car stickers were produced. If that has produced on new member it was worthit.

So Keith L if you want me to complete a survey form my membership No is A0045931

Keep on Divin' BSAC
Alan
:=I go to the Boat Show at Earls Court every year and the number of diving related stands has shrunk and shrunk - Andark being the notable exception, probably because they sell sailing gear! I might be wrong, but these experiences suggest that promoting diving, diving goods and diving services, at more general events is rather tricky.

I tend to agree, we have also learnt from our past experiences and some shows are simply not worth it. The new Outdoor Pursuits show may be worth while, we wont know unless we try. It's different to your example of the Boat Show in that diving clearly 'fits' into the overall theme of the show a bit better than into the Boat Show (if you get my gist).

I don't actually know if we will be attending, there's something somewhere within my reams of emails about it but I'm not sure whether the decision has been made [I could be wrong on this]. However, for EVERY show that we attend there is a full cost/benefit projection and justification produced before we decide, if we do go we monitor the actuals against the expected.

So it's not just "Oh look, a show, I suppose the BSAC had better go...", we look at each one on its merits and we review the actual performance to feed into future decisions. So whilst I share your view that such shows do have an element of risk we treat them in a very business like manner, we know the risks and we assess them.

We might not get it right every single time (show me somebody who has never made a mistake and I'll show you somebody who never tries anything!) but in the 3 or 4 years I've been on Council we've been handling the issue of show attendance as I have described above and it seems to be working.

I hope that clarifies things Sarah, attending shows is not something that we do lightly.

Regards

Keith L

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

11-09-2003, 21:28

Extensive membership survey? I am just a humble BSAC diver who may have missed something here. Some members have been contacted?(please respond) I dont seem to remember being contacted because i would have 'responded' If this is an extensive membership survey why haven't all members been contacted? I am all for increasing members for the worlds biggest diving club feed back does help because it was at my suggestion that the recent 'learn to dive' car stickers were produced. If that has produced on new member it was worthit.

So Keith L if you want me to complete a survey form my membership No is A0045931

Hi Alan

We could not afford to canvass all members!! See the latest (or was it the one before that?) edition of BSAC Talk, there's details in there. Some 1,000 people have been contacted so far, the survey mainly takes the form of a telephone interview. I will however pass on your details, I don't know if you will be contacted, I'm not dealing with this.

Again, raise a topic in Club Matters if you want to, I'll try and respond there.

Regards

Keith L

BSACHQ

12-09-2003, 12:08

Dear Alan

Many thanks for your interest in the BSAC's Marketing Survey - "BSAC Shaping Our Future".

This Marketing project is currently being carried out over the next few weeks until the end of December 2003. It is in two phases. The first phase is via a telephone survey to approx 1,000 members over the target groups of new members, current members and lapsed members. This telephone survey has now started and we are about half way through.

The second phase of the project is via an internet survey and will be covering approximately 10,000 of our members. We will be emailing this out to members in the next couple of weeks.

The plan will be for the BSAC to gather all the results in from both phases of the project, anylsise them, present them to the BSAC Council and then implement any changes which we can to improve the services we offer to our membership.

The survey has been promoted in Dive Magazine , BSAC Talk and on the website. We have tried to invite people to let us know if they are happy to help with the project.
You can do this either by helping us in the telephone survey which takes approximately 20 minutues to complete or we can email you the internet survey. If you would like to be involved, please let me know on my email address, <a href="mailto:maryt@bsac.com">maryt@bsac.com</a> and we will ensure that we contact you

If you would like to know anything else about this project, again, please let me know

Kind Regards

Mary Tetley
BSAC Operations Manager

Vic

12-09-2003, 12:14

Tony Dwyer

12-09-2003, 14:42

The subject of membership numbers is an entirely different subject! Yes they have been falling but this is more in relationship to society and people's expectations rather than the BSAC itself, all member driven clubs in all areas of activity face similar pressures.

This is true. People tend to try many different activities these days and tend not to make long term commitment to many. I believe this is simply because there is now some much for them to do!

Contrary to the opinions of many vociferous pundits, the nature of diving has changed. While it is true that there are many that wish to pursue more technical and adventurous diving, they are in the minority. The vast majority of divers in the UK and indeed worldwide only dive occasionally. Most often when on holiday abroad. This is an increasing trend. Such people are very hard to entice into the club system.

But they can have a place in BSAC. They can be encouraged by enthusiasm and example.

Too often they are put off by the loud voices of the 'do it harder' brigade. They are no less divers because they do not wish to dive with shed loads of equipment to 50+ metres.
The branch which I have the pleasure to be a member of has seen growth over recent years, though we've had a slight slow down in the past year, which I believe is due to economic pressures rather than a failure in recruitment. An open hand and a welcoming smile goes a long way.

Alan Taylor

13-09-2003, 13:44

David Leon

15-09-2003, 14:11

> We have tried to invite people to let us know if they are
> happy to help with the project.

Ewwwww - non-random selection of your sample? Isn't that going to yield a somewhat skewed response?

Vic.

I fear you may have a point Vic. My experience with self completion questionnaires is that you tend to get views in extremes, ie those who have something to complain about and those who want give praise. The middle majority who don't have anything particular to say don't bother completing a survey. Inviting people to be included in a random survey will invalidate the sampling technique. However the sample sizes seem pretty big, especially the e-mail questionnaire, so long as the self selecting responsdents are minimal it may not be an issue. But one those analysing and interpreting the results shoud be aware of. If it was my research project I'd be sure to code those that we're self selecting in case I needed to be able to filter them out if they were introducing bias.

David

David Leon

15-09-2003, 16:11

I e-mailed my thoughts on sample bias to Mary Tetley at BSAC HQ and recieved the following response. Seems with only eight members asking to participate in the survey any concerns about sample bias have been greatley exagerated!

++++++++++

Perhaps my email was slightly misleading. The telephone survey will be approaching approx 1,000 members. From a data protection point of view we have had to inform members that we are carrying out the survey. This does then give people a choice as to whether they want to be involved or not.

The internet survey is going to to a very large sample and so far I have only been approached by 8 members who have said they would like to be involved, so this percentage will not affect the results in any way. The aim of this survey is to find out what we can from as many members as possible. However we do have to give everyone a choice and let them know that we will be emailing and telephoning certain groups.

The project has been profesionally and carefully put together so the results are useful for the BSAC .

I hope this clears the matter up for everyone. If anyone wishes to speak to me on the phone about this please feel free to telephone me on 0151 350 6220.

Regards
Mary Tetley
BSAC Operations Manager