TRAINING DIVES

[Mick Cansdale]

IS IT POSSIBLE TO FINISH OCEAN DIVER AND THEN DO THE THEORY AND A FEW PRACTICAL LESSON FOR SPORTS DIVER AND DIVE LEADER AND THEN START ADVANCE DIVER THEORY.

[TerryH]

IS IT POSSIBLE TO FINISH OCEAN DIVER AND THEN DO THE THEORY AND A FEW PRACTICAL LESSON FOR SPORTS DIVER AND DIVE LEADER AND THEN START ADVANCE DIVER THEORY.

First thing press the caps lock button. Capitals is akin to
shouting!!!!!!

The basic awnser is no. You can normaly do the theory of the
next grade while engaged in the OW of the one before it, but
never two grades ahead. The only way that this is possible is
doing SDC's, which as stand alone courses give you brownie
points for later grades.

So you could as an Ocean diver take the O2 SDC which would get
large chunks of DL signed off. Similarly you could do PRM which
again would get bits signed off.

There is only one reason why anybody would be in such a rush
to get to Advanced and if that's the case (i'm not saying what
it is), then you will suffer from the lack of experience dives
that you would have gained by doing it slowly.

Chill.

TerryH

[lynn jackson]

It depends on your club. In my club the answer is yes. I have only just completed my DL but did my O2 course in 2000 and Search and Recovery plus PRM not long afterwards. We are talking theory here after all, I'm still gaining experience and probably won't get the Advanced ticket until 2006 :-)

[Mike Halligan]

This is where what is permissible can confuse what is intended.

As a broad principle, one should complete a course of instruction and then put it into practice. After sufficient practice, one may be ready to begin a fresh course of instruction. However, we are all individuals, with differing abilities, needs and environments - so Instructors, TO and DO must be both flexible and realistic.

Once Theory is completed and assessed at each Diver grade, it is permissible to commence study of theory for the next. Under the previous syllabus, it was permissible to undertaken theory lessons of the next grade once the related lesson in the lower grade was complete (i.e. before assessment).

SDCs, such as O2 and PRM in particular, muddy the waters further and the judgement of Solomon is required of the DO, who must ensure that whatever may be done is safely done.

Let's just take one step at a time, eh? I was once told one gains nothing in a hurry, save hernias and babies. Not a bad philosophy in a sport that takes many hours of experience to teach how little one understands.

Good luck with whatever you undertake, but remember the tortoise and the hare.

Mike

[Andy Nye]

It depends on your club. In my club the answer is yes. I have only just completed my DL but did my O2 course in 2000 and Search and Recovery plus PRM not long afterwards. We are talking theory here after all, I'm still gaining experience and probably won't get the

*** Advanced ticket until 2006 **** Hope ya talking about a PADI Advanced open water ticket......


You got a Buddy Trident yet ????????????


Rdgs

Andy

[lynn jackson]

:=It depends on your club. In my club the answer is yes. I have only just completed my DL but did my O2 course in 2000 and Search and Recovery plus PRM not long afterwards. We are talking theory here after all, I'm still gaining experience and probably won't get the

*** Advanced ticket until 2006 **** Hope ya talking about a PADI Advanced open water ticket......


You got a Buddy Trident yet ????????????


Rdgs

Andy

Hiya toots (you are a one! :-) ),

I was just about to buy one when work dried up. As soon as I get another contract it's the first thing on my shopping list...

[PeteM]

It depends on your club. In my club the answer is yes. I have only just completed my DL but did my O2 course in 2000 and Search and Recovery plus PRM not long afterwards. We are talking theory here after all, I'm still gaining experience and probably won't get the Advanced ticket until 2006 :-)

O2, Search and Recovery and PRM all being SDC's not core theory, so exactly what Terry said

[Gordon Archer]

IS IT POSSIBLE TO FINISH OCEAN DIVER AND THEN DO THE THEORY AND A FEW PRACTICAL LESSON FOR SPORTS DIVER AND DIVE LEADER AND THEN START ADVANCE DIVER THEORY.


Providing the theory lesson's follow the set order there is no reason why you should not pick these up when available to you. It used to be possible at the dive shows to sit through all the theory lecture's put on by BSAC instructors, from beginners to Advanced diver.
Remember though you will still need to pass the theory exam at each level, doing it as fast as possible in the way you suggest might not be the best way as the theory matter would not be fresh in your memory.

[TerryH]

Providing the theory lesson's follow the set order there is no reason why you should not pick these up when available to you.

Possible yes, desirable no.

It's prudent to point out that it's the experince gained
through the practical sessions and dives which are more than
just a part of each diver grade.

Eg. An Ocean diver who has yet to do the Rescue Assessment may
know Sports Rescue theory, but isnt going to be able to bring
the practical experience to the DL PRM.

At least if you do the SDC you get both theory and practical in
a self-contained unit.

TerryH

[TerryH]

It depends on your club. In my club the answer is yes. I have only just completed my DL but did my O2 course in 2000 and Search and Recovery plus PRM not long afterwards. We are talking theory here after all, I'm still gaining experience and probably won't get the Advanced ticket until 2006 :-)

Not really.
The SDC's are stand alone courses with full practical elements.
O2 - Although classroom based has practical elements
S&R - Two day course with at least one days practical.
PRM - One day course with 2/3rds practical.

As you are on the old Advanced syllabus which is made up of
SDC's you do get the theory element signed up, but he would be
on the new syllabus, not the same at all.

TerryH
PS: I hope 2006 date is a throway joke, as you may find that if
you wait that you will have to do the new syllabus for Advanced!

[PeteM]

PS: I hope 2006 date is a throway joke, as you may find that if
you wait that you will have to do the new syllabus for Advanced!

I have heard rumors that the old sylabus is to be withdrawn - when and how was this announced?

[Mike Halligan]

I have heard rumors that the old sylabus is to be withdrawn - when and how was this announced?

I guess this is an interpretation problem.

At launch, there was no indication that the BSAC intended to stop old syllabus candidates in their tracks, in fact entirely the opposite.

What _was_ said was that anyone wishing to progress from their current grade should embark on the new, rather than start now on the old. Precisely how this message is served up and in what context may lead to the rumours you relate.

HTH

Mike

[PeteM]

:=I have heard rumors that the old sylabus is to be withdrawn - when and how was this announced?

I guess this is an interpretation problem.

At launch, there was no indication that the BSAC intended to stop old syllabus candidates in their tracks, in fact entirely the opposite.

What _was_ said was that anyone wishing to progress from their current grade should embark on the new, rather than start now on the old. Precisely how this message is served up and in what context may lead to the rumours you relate.


So is there a definitive line? Our club has a couple of people that have almost finished AD under the old sylabus having started it before the introduction of new do they have a specific cut off

Pete

[lynn Jackson]

PS: I hope 2006 date is a throway joke, as you may find that if
you wait that you will have to do the new syllabus for Advanced!





Nope, it wasn't - I've already been told by my DO that I have to do the new syllabus, it'll be 2006 before I'll be bothered to start again and buy a new logbook...

[Mike Halligan]

So is there a definitive line? Our club has a couple of people that have almost finished AD under the old sylabus having started it before the introduction of new do they have a specific cut off

Pete,

I'm aware (as a Branch TO) only that several members of Council, NDC and Region have said in my hearing that there is not. The terms used were similar to "No-one already engaged in an "old" diver grade should be disadvantaged. They should, however, update via the transfer modules before embarking on the next grade." I think the line was, like old-style OWI via logging, that those already involved are relatively few and we should be able to cope.

Personally, I have never heard a contradictory voice so take my word for the little it's worth if you wish, or ask Jim or Alistair (they don't bite).

HTH

Mike

[Lindsey Doyle]

:=

Nope, it wasn't - I've already been told by my DO that I have to do the new syllabus, it'll be 2006 before I'll be bothered to start again and buy a new logbook...

As you have already done 3 of the SDCs for old AD that's a fair proprtion of the necessary training & surely enough grounds for continuing?
If your branch hasn't the "means" to help you, you could complete the old AD by attending SDCs (Regions still run them....Lifesaver covers the rescue assessment i think)....then it's just some marshalling assessments (you do all the work organising diving for your branch, only needs someone to supervise) ? you could ask Coach to set you the exam if that's a problem too. If you're proactive & present it as a proposition to your DO they may be more sympathetic?
HTH

[Dave]

:=:=
:=
:=Nope, it wasn't - I've already been told by my DO that I have to do the new syllabus, it'll be 2006 before I'll be bothered to start again and buy a new logbook...

As you have already done 3 of the SDCs for old AD that's a fair proprtion of the necessary training & surely enough grounds for continuing?
If your branch hasn't the "means" to help you, you could complete the old AD by attending SDCs (Regions still run them....Lifesaver covers the rescue assessment i think)....then it's just some marshalling assessments (you do all the work organising diving for your branch, only needs someone to supervise) ? you could ask Coach to set you the exam if that's a problem too. If you're proactive & present it as a proposition to your DO they may be more sympathetic?


Given that she says that she just completed DL , I presume that it was completed subsequent to september last year. As such, she is not eligable to continue on the old AD syllabus

Dave

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

:=So is there a definitive line? Our club has a couple of people that have almost finished AD under the old sylabus having started it before the introduction of new do they have a specific cut off
:=
Pete,

I'm aware (as a Branch TO) only that several members of Council, NDC and Region have said in my hearing that there is not...

Personally, I have never heard a contradictory voice so take my word for the little it's worth if you wish, or ask Jim or Alistair (they don't bite).

AFAIK Mike is perfectly correct, the actual words on the introduction (link below) are -

"As with any update to a training system, it will take some time for complete transition on to the new system. For this reason the BSAC have decided that, where divers have partially completed training for a particular grade, there is no time limit for the balance of the training for that grade to be completed before transitioning to the new scheme."

I am not aware of any discussions to put limits on things.

Keith L

[lynn Jackson]

My DO is very definite on this point. Anyone in the middle of their grades completes the old route, anything else goes the new route. He's getting irritated by the experienced members not wanting to buy the new logbook.

He's the boss and a good DO and I abide by his decision. I consider myself an old/new DL now as some of the SDC's I've done are now in the DL syllabus. Such is (club) life.

[PeteM]

:=:=So is there a definitive line? Our club has a couple of people that have almost finished AD under the old sylabus having started it before the introduction of new do they have a specific cut off
:=:=
:=Pete,
:=
:=I'm aware (as a Branch TO) only that several members of Council, NDC and Region have said in my hearing that there is not...

:=Personally, I have never heard a contradictory voice so take my word for the little it's worth if you wish, or ask Jim or Alistair (they don't bite).

AFAIK Mike is perfectly correct, the actual words on the introduction (link below) are -

"As with any update to a training system, it will take some time for complete transition on to the new system. For this reason the BSAC have decided that, where divers have partially completed training for a particular grade, there is no time limit for the balance of the training for that grade to be completed before transitioning to the new scheme."

I am not aware of any discussions to put limits on things.

Thanks guys - you have confirmed my recollection on the transfer arrangements

Pete

[Lindsey Doyle]

Given that she says that she just completed DL , I presume that it was completed subsequent to september last year. As such, she is not eligable to continue on the old AD syllabus

Yes, but she has already started on the OLD AD syllabus too!!! It'd be different if she hadn't done any SDCs, but I think many many old DLs will be in a similar position.
Does anyone know if there's actually more required (by way of instructor input)to get to AD by the new route?
I take Lynn's point that she feels equal to a "new" DL.

[Lindsey Doyle]

Given that she says that she just completed DL , I presume that it was completed subsequent to september last year. As such, she is not eligable to continue on the old AD syllabus

Yes, but she has already started on the OLD AD syllabus too!!! It'd be different if she hadn't done any SDCs, but I think many many old DLs will be in a similar position.
Does anyone know if there's actually more required (by way of instructor input)to get to AD by the new route?
I take Lynn's point that she feels equal to a "new" DL.

[Andy Nye]

A Dive Leader is a Dive Leader no matter what syllabus they trained under...

"""I take Lynn's point that she feels equal to a "new" DL."""

Or are we taking PROMOTION courses now stating that a Dive leader that passes a new course tomorrow is better than me from 7 years ago passing the old syllabus...

THINK NOT some how.

Andy

[Gordon Archer]

:=
:=Providing the theory lesson's follow the set order there is no reason why you should not pick these up when available to you.

Possible yes, desirable no.

Why not desirable! if the theory is available to you why not take it, get it signed off when you can.
Remember you still have the exams & assesment's you have to pass to gain the grade, and as you have correctly stated that does need experience.


At least if you do the SDC you get both theory and practical in a self-contained unit.

TerryH

Agreed SDC are a good way to progress and enjoyable too.

[Lindsey Doyle]

A Dive Leader is a Dive Leader no matter what syllabus they trained under...

"""I take Lynn's point that she feels equal to a "new" DL."""

Or are we taking PROMOTION courses now stating that a Dive leader that passes a new course tomorrow is better than me from 7 years ago passing the old syllabus...

THINK NOT some how.

I never made any judgement on the new syllabus producing "better"(your word) DLs than the old...it's certainly different though, and it is a fact that it includes some material that was previously in AD.
Don't want to get into an argument....I've no doubt that your experience since DL (marshalling, rescue management, chartwork etc)is equivalent to the SDC material now at DL level.

[Dave]

:=Given that she says that she just completed DL , I presume that it was completed subsequent to september last year. As such, she is not eligable to continue on the old AD syllabus
:=
Yes, but she has already started on the OLD AD syllabus too!!! It'd be different if she hadn't done any SDCs, but I think many many old DLs will be in a similar position.

The person cannot have started the AD course since it is not possible to embark on the course until completion of the previous grade ergo the person must start the new AD course. This was stated by BSAC when queried on this precise issue

Dave

[Lindsey Doyle]

I said:
:=:=
:=Yes, but she has already started on the OLD AD syllabus too!!!

You refer to it as "course" but the old (last) AD was made up of SDCs and assessments, no actual lessons so not really a "course", very different from the AD course that branches could run, there was before that!:

The person cannot have started the AD course
since it is not possible to embark on the course until completion of the previous grade ergo the person must start the new AD course. This was stated by BSAC when queried on this precise issue

Sorry, but this is rubbish, it was ALWAYS the case that divers could do SDCs with either no qual (eg BH), CD or SD depending on which SDC. There are very few SDCs which required qual as DL.
This whole thread has dealt with the fact that the next grade theory can be started before OW elements & award of prior grade are completed.

[Dave]

Sorry, but this is rubbish, it was ALWAYS the case that divers could do SDCs with either no qual (eg BH), CD or SD depending on which SDC. There are very few SDCs which required qual as DL.
This whole thread has dealt with the fact that the next grade theory can be started before OW elements & award of prior grade are completed.



That is your theory which doesn't support the explicit statement from BSAC when asked about this very issue recently. You may have done SDCs, however after completing the current diving grade which you are taking ( DL in this example ) you must continue under the new system. Having already undertaken one or more of the SDCs prior to the changeover.

If you wish to continue to assert that I am lying, I will try and hunt down the mail which was received which covers this issue

Dave