This months Dive

[TerryH]

Call me Mr.Anorak, but if I'm supposed to be promoting
BSAC's National Try-Dive week on page 107 of this months Dive,
then shouldnt I at least have a picture of some BSAC divers?

The two featured are so obviously not BSAC.
We can even play "how can you tell".

I'm up to 6 ways already!

Anybody want to guess?

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Call me Mr.Anorak, but if I'm supposed to be promoting
BSAC's National Try-Dive week on page 107 of this months Dive,
then shouldnt I at least have a picture of some BSAC divers?

The two featured are so obviously not BSAC.
We can even play "how can you tell".

I'm up to 6 ways already!

Anybody want to guess?

Oh all right Terry, I'll bite :-)) [Thinks... should we have a Pedants forum?]

Come on then, tell us why they =CAN'T= be BSAC divers! Include in your answer explanations of why BSAC divers never make mistakes and proof of their alternative diving qualifications ;-)

What's the prize Terry? Maybe we should see who can list the most mistakes in the picture with a special category for the best "what is he saying" caption.

Keith L

[TerryH]

Oh all right Terry, I'll bite :-)) [Thinks... should we have a Pedants forum?]

Come on then, tell us why they =CAN'T= be BSAC divers! Include in your answer explanations of why BSAC divers never make mistakes and proof of their alternative diving qualifications ;-)

What's the prize Terry? Maybe we should see who can list the most mistakes in the picture with a special category for the best "what is he saying" caption.

Keith L

Ok. Remember this is the Anorak in me talking & all IMO.

If we ignore the Boat Palau Aggressor (would have thought a
nice offshore 105 would have been more appropriate).
But hey we dive abroad as well.

Snorkels. BSAC guys have them in there bag, pocket or knife
strap. They are a bit of tube and very rarely are they the
all singing and dancing ones in the picture.

Octopus. Where do you have it? Most BSAC guys have it on there
left ready to donate (rightside up). Other organisations have
it on there right. More to do with litigation then
practicalities. Yep these guys have it on there right.

Now this could be just bad practise and yes BSAC divers are not
immune, but how about fingers on mask, palm on reg and scoop up
your gauges. looks like at least one of these will loose his
mask!

Still looks like the coral is going to come off worse. Octos
unclipped and the SPG is happly dangling down along with the
monitor computer making a very nice version of a medival
hammer. Hasnt heard of streamlining then. Still he might get in
without it catching on the ladder and garoting him.

I know this is a bit of fun Keith, but there is a serious point
in that if your are going to promote BSAC try-dives, shouldnt
we at least use pictures of BSAC at home and make sure that
those in the pictures are at the very least following standard
BSAC good practice.

Very lazy of the mag to use a stock picture.

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I know this is a bit of fun Keith, but there is a serious point

I know Terry, I was treating it in that manner :-)

in that if your are going to promote BSAC try-dives, shouldnt
we at least use pictures of BSAC at home and make sure that
those in the pictures are at the very least following standard
BSAC good practice.

OK... WHY?? Look at your target market, we're talking try dives here, all of the points that you raise would be unknown to the vast majority of try divers. The sad fact of modern life is marketing, we are all subjected to it every day. Do you complain about the 'fun' pictures used in all of the other adverts within the diving magazines? Try the front page, p12, p15, p25...

The point I'm trying to make Terry is that like it or not we have to compete in a market, our job is to get new members into our branches. All that we are doing is following industry standard practices that the consumer expects.

So feel free, have a bit of fun, I'll probably join in! But I am not going to take it seriously because I trust Simon's (Dive's) judgement better than ours on this, =HE= is the expert, not us [i.e. why pay a dog and bark yourself?]. So I'm treating it as artistic licence and I hope that it has the desired affect - getting new members into our branches.

Cheers

Keith L

[Brian Garner]

Whilst we are knocking the mag.
I thought that a picture in last months mag was excellent. It is in the article on instructors, not sure of the page. The diver has a single cylinder on. He also carries a flag.
How is he going to deploy it if he has a need to. looking at the pic it is inside his cam band.
Perhaps the procedure is - Use flag - lose cylinder.
It made me smile.

Brian garner

[John Williams]

Octopus. Where do you have it? Most BSAC guys have it on there
left ready to donate (rightside up). Other organisations have
it on there right. More to do with litigation then
practicalities. Yep these guys have it on there right.



Actually - if you check your back copies of the NDC Bullettin the BSAC recommended way of wearing your Octopus is on the right ...so that you can breathe from it when your primary rig gets nicked. The article also expounds the benefits of having the Octo in this position so that when a diver approaches it is from the same side as for Buddy Breathing. (Now I know we've dropped Buddy Breathing - but I have not seen any new advice from BSAC about Octo positioning)

Maybe it's time for the article to be re-written (tough I draw no conclusions about changing the advice)...but at the moment BSAC recommendation (not rule) is for Octos to be on the right.

Now this could be just bad practise and yes BSAC divers are not
immune, but how about fingers on mask, palm on reg and scoop up
your gauges. looks like at least one of these will loose his
mask!


Still looks like the coral is going to come off worse. Octos
unclipped and the SPG is happly dangling down along with the
monitor computer making a very nice version of a medival
hammer. Hasnt heard of streamlining then. Still he might get in
without it catching on the ladder and garoting him.

Again...could just be poor practice...or divers not following their training (from any organisation). Do your trainees (or even you) ALWAYS follow the "correct" techn iques - exactly as taught ...by perfet instructors - who NEVER let their standards slip from 110% correct.


I know this is a bit of fun Keith, but there is a serious point
in that if your are going to promote BSAC try-dives, shouldnt
we at least use pictures of BSAC at home and make sure that
those in the pictures are at the very least following standard
BSAC good practice.



I have some sympathy with your point of view.
How about an alternative?

Does your own attitude ...perceived by many as dictatorial, pedantic, rigid, sarcastic (though this may be an erroneous perception)...not place the BSAC in a bad light?

Shoukld we join BSAC "Boot Camp" with little Hitler instructors ...or should we go to a fun adventure park and have fun?

Pro's and cons to both. At least with LH you end up well trained, well prepared and therefore (arguably safer divers)....but it's not fun! (and divers are not noticeably dying off after doing the fun course)

Food for thought?

Very lazy of the mag to use a stock picture.


Agreed... it would have been nice for the magazine to use more obviously "BSAC" divers (in UK waters, diving from a well-known charter boat, or a well-labelled branch rib)

But this eternal criticism is just as damaging.

As is the view that poor practice MUST mean that the divers are not BSAC. We are not "holier than thou!"

We do pride ourselves on excellence - but so do the other agencies. Everyone shows variance - even the BSAC.

The mag should promote excellence rather than reporting sloppiness (or should it report the truth?) - but excellence - or lack of it- does NOT define the training agency

All the best


John

[Adrian Kelland]

Whilst we are knocking the mag.
I thought that a picture in last months mag was excellent. It is in the article on instructors, not sure of the page. The diver has a single cylinder on. He also carries a flag.
How is he going to deploy it if he has a need to. looking at the pic it is inside his cam band.
Perhaps the procedure is - Use flag - lose cylinder.
It made me smile.

Brian garner

It's going to make me smile even more. I think I know why it has been done like that, but I do know the person who claims to be the hooded diver in that shot. I can't wait to find out...

Adrian

[TerryH]

but at the moment BSAC recommendation (not rule) is for Octos to be on the right.


Better tell all the BSAC guys and gals then, because unless its
wrapped/attached round there neck the vast majority of us will
have it on there left.


Again...could just be poor practice...or divers not following their training (from any organisation). Do your trainees (or even you) ALWAYS follow the "correct" techniques - exactly as taught ...by perfet instructors - who NEVER let their standards slip from 110% correct.


Well obviously not, nobody is perfect and I have on many occaisons made major f**kups, but they werent photographed and
used as a prime example of BSAC divers in a glossy mag.

What next? Back to the old days of BSAC divers hanging onto
coral or perhaps lifting objects from war graves. All pictured
in previous mags.


The mag should promote excellence rather than reporting sloppiness (or should it report the truth?) - but excellence - or lack of it- does NOT define the training agency


Well yes it does, you see it was promoting BSAC try-dives, so
I can now rightly make the assumption that BSAC divers are like
the two muppets in the picture.

TerryH
AKA Dictatorial, pedantic, rigid, sarcastic -
missed out impatient (with BSAC at least).

[TerryH]

Good one on page 75 as well.
Hope he's got a good grip or his buddy is going to have a
bit of a headache!

TerryH

[Steve Walker]

Terry, I'm surprised you missd out the pic on pg 21, where _is_ that hose going to ??? Anyway if you're loking for Jim Henson style divers check the Mares ad on pg 12, that expensive looking torch is probably on a one way trip to 'Davy Jones's locker', and if that blond falls in she'll probably drwon before she finds her reg ;)

Anyway, I think our organization has more important everyday image issues than a spot of holiday-related muppetry.

On a more serious note, speaking of marketing, why is it that evertime someone on TV wins a try-diving prize it's always a PADI one ? More recently my Uni has been giving away free career related mags to those about to graduate, one (think its a New Scientist spin-off) shows a diver on the cover and offers a chance to win diver training somewhere nice and hot - do you really need three guesses which agency is offering the prize?

Once a year try-dive campaigns are all good and well, but if BSAC really wants to increase membership, it needs to have a more constant and readily accessible profile.

Perhaps HQ could persuade Kate Humble (pg 22) to front a BBC programme on British Diving? and if she needs a buddy... ;)

Cheers
Steve

[Ben Field]

Hadn't noticed that article at all... just goes to show your point I expect!

What I did notice was the inaccurate, embarrassing and almost offensive - "50 Ways to be a better diver."

Okay some of the suggestions were fair and well intended others were downright stupid, I don't have the magazine in my lap right now (its at home under the cat litter tray) but I know a space filler when I see one. :)

FWIW- This weekend, between dives I will not, as this article suggests be madly running about trying to force feed addition SCUBA instruction on my buddies, bothering the skipper by "helping" him navigate (OH MY GOD, how could they suggest that?) and generally being a nerdy BSAC poster boy...

BEN ;)

[Gordon Archer]

:=Octopus. Where do you have it? Most BSAC guys have it on there
:=left ready to donate (rightside up). Other organisations have
:=it on there right. More to do with litigation then
:=practicalities. Yep these guys have it on there right.
:=


Actually - if you check your back copies of the NDC Bullettin the BSAC recommended way of wearing your Octopus is on the right ...so that you can breathe from it when your primary rig gets nicked. The article also expounds the benefits of having the Octo in this position so that when a diver approaches it is from the same side as for Buddy Breathing. (Now I know we've dropped Buddy Breathing - but I have not seen any new advice from BSAC about Octo positioning)


Well done John in reminding everyone of the NDC bulletin; which was the result of a study into incidents where alternative air sources were used.
Is it not time to remind divers that the octopus is for their use first & foremost. As the finding of the study and the reason for the publication.
You precisely identified that the primary rig would have been nicked by the out of air diver in panic.
Or we could recommend AutoAir/air2 device's which are omni directional.:-)

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

So feel free, have a bit of fun, I'll probably join in! But I am not going to take it seriously because I trust Simon's (Dive's) judgement better than ours on this, =HE= is the expert, not us [i.e. why pay a dog and bark yourself?].

Ooops! Um, errr.. [fx:blush]

The ?offending? ad has NOTHING to do with Dive magazine, it comes direct from HQ via our own PR/advertising people. It just goes to show who reads the forums, guess who got a telephone call? So my apologies crediting it to Dive, that picture would probably have come via Image Wizard, our PR people. So Terry?s wrong blaming Dive, I?m wrong sticking up for them ;-)

But the gist of my point still stands, we?re talking PR and marketing here and not diving instruction, if it does the job - fine by me. We could all have an awful lot of fun tearing the adverts to bits in magazines, on TV and in the papers. But we still buy things! :-)

Keith L

[TerryH]

But the gist of my point still stands, we?re talking PR and marketing here and not diving instruction, if it does the job - fine by me. We could all have an awful lot of fun tearing the adverts to bits in magazines, on TV and in the papers. But we still buy things! :-)

Keith L

Sorry Keith, that dog dont bite. I fully understand the
ramifications of marketing (I did work in the industry for
about 10 years), but I dont see how you can use marketing as
an excuse for bad diving practices.

So how about pictures of BSAC divers hanging onto coral reefs!
Is that acceptable if we are selling a dive holiday?

Either we are the governing body or we are not. If so then we
have a responsibilty to ensure that ANYTHING with our (BSAC's)
name on it is above reproach.

Call me Mr.Anorak, but I'd rather have two who look less like
muppets and more like divers promoting BSAC.

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Call me Mr.Anorak, but I'd rather have two who look less like
muppets and more like divers promoting BSAC.

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one Terry. It's an advert, nothing more, nothing less. We have a very limited marketing budget, we cannot afford that much creating our own 'brand', with the target market for this advert the image reflects the already established brand of recreational diving.

Your points are noted of course, I'd be complaining if it were an instructional piece, but it isn't - it's an advert.

Regards

Keith L

[TerryH]

Ok, agree to differ even though the excuse is a bit weak.
Was a minor irritation anyway, but interested in this comment
you made .........

"It just goes to show who reads the forums, guess who got a telephone call?"

Perhaps those same parties could direct a similar ammount of
interest to .........

<a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2079.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2079.html</a>

In our club dispite numerous emails and communications with HQ,
the biggest cause of irritation is exams.

Perhaps as these are meant to be both the marker of our
teaching skills and the students absorbsion of knowledge, they
merit a bit more attention than the woefully inadequate
afterthought we seem to have at the moment.

TerryH

[Steve Walker]

I'm surprised that you _seem_ to be relying on HQ for exams (I suspect you're just trying to make a point). I know from other posts you've got a good training setup in terms of numers of instructors, I don't see the difficulty is using the supplied exams as mere templates for scope and level of difficulty and creating your own. In fact, I'm not sure if I've ever set for trainees an exam which was exactly as written by HQ

Regards
Steve

[Andy Nye]

I'll agree with that.

We always make up own exams with questions that have been supplied by BSAC from past exams.

Andy

[Mike Halligan]

I'm surprised that you _seem_ to be relying on HQ for exams (I suspect you're just trying to make a point). I know from other posts you've got a good training setup in terms of numers of instructors, I don't see the difficulty is using the supplied exams as mere templates for scope and level of difficulty and creating your own. In fact, I'm not sure if I've ever set for trainees an exam which was exactly as written by HQ

Regards
Steve

Likewise, my "To Do" list (subset BSAC) for this Summer/Autumn includes setting exams at OD, SD and possibly DL for early use. This may not be such fun as pointing out where others have gone awry, and it sure is risky - someone may show you've gone awry - but there is a certain satisfaction. It just takes a long time. However if you're to count yourself an Instructor, you've just got to live with it.

Regards,
Mike

[TerryH]

I'm surprised that you _seem_ to be relying on HQ for exams (I suspect you're just trying to make a point). I know from other posts you've got a good training setup in terms of numers of instructors, I don't see the difficulty is using the supplied exams as mere templates for scope and level of difficulty and creating your own. In fact, I'm not sure if I've ever set for trainees an exam which was exactly as written by HQ


Nope, stopped relying on HQ about 3 years ago. We have (as you
say) had to rewrite nearly all of them. Makes it worse (or
better?) that a big chunk of our divers are on maritime
courses, which means a smattering of first officers and an
awful lot of RYA Instructors. Imagine the fun they have
correcting the Seamanship questions!

It is just incredably irritating that as an organisation we
cant put together an exam database without errors and even more
irritating that once found, such errors are not removed.

Trouble is that it would be nice to name and shame the
questions, but we cant really do that can we (or can we?)

TerryH

[Steve Walker]

It is just incredably irritating that as an organisation we
cant put together an exam database without errors and even more irritating that once found, such errors are not removed.

I'm usually more concerned about the glaring ambiguities and the (IMO) rather pointless questions, like that one about naming the benefits of diving from a RIB, always first in line for the rewrite.

Guess this comes back to the issue of the apparent yawning chasm between HQ and "the front line" and something which could have been addressed by the Instructor mailing list idea - who remembers that...?

I would have suggested mailing or writing to someone and trying to get a ball rolling on such issues, but having seen a little of the Kafka-esque style of our organization it would probably be more productive to sort something out over on DiveInstruct (which has gone very quiet over recent months).

Cheers
Steve

[TerryH]

I'm usually more concerned about the glaring ambiguities and the (IMO) rather pointless questions, like that one about naming the benefits of diving from a RIB, always first in line for the rewrite.


My personal favorite is the classic, depth diffrence between
Sport Diving & Sport Diver. Try explaining that to a foreign
student!

Guess this comes back to the issue of the apparent yawning chasm between HQ and "the front line" and something which could have been addressed by the Instructor mailing list idea - who remembers that...?

I would have suggested mailing or writing to someone and trying to get a ball rolling on such issues, but having seen a little of the Kafka-esque style of our organization it would probably be more productive to sort something out over on DiveInstruct (which has gone very quiet over recent months).


Yep, I agree. I have many times tried to stir things up and I
know that I am now sounding a bit like a broken record, but as
Club officer that spends on average a minimum of two days a
week on BSAC buisness (I kid not), I think I'm entitled to a
winge.

Quite honestly, one thing that does more harm to BSAC and it's
image are exams. Look at it this way, if you were told after 10
hours of lectures + revision that your pass or fail (and the
retest) may depend on grammatical errors, ambigous interpretations and plain inaccuracies would you be pleased?

Maybe it's time that BSAC Instructors set up there own email group outside of BSAC?

Rgds
TerryH

[PeteM]

Well done John in reminding everyone of the NDC bulletin; which was the result of a study into incidents where alternative air sources were used.
Is it not time to remind divers that the octopus is for their use first & foremost. As the finding of the study and the reason for the publication.
You precisely identified that the primary rig would have been nicked by the out of air diver in panic.
Or we could recommend AutoAir/air2 device's which are omni directional.:-)

Long hose arguement anyone?

[Adrian Kelland]

Long hose arguement anyone?

Not today thankyou.

Adrian

[Dave Humm]

Well.. Fellas LMAO you guys don't have much to do ?

All this debate over a stock picture that many (if not all) novices prolly wouldn't know the difference between what goes where and why.

BTW My Octo funtions correctly either served from the left OR right shoulder and any buddy I dive with will be told (or already knows) that.

Oh yes..

"Long hose arguement anyone?"

Yeh I find a 2mtr hose especially good as a backup buddy line

Happy debating.. er I mean Diving

DH

[Steve Walker]

Well.. Fellas LMAO you guys don't have much to do ?

(Unlimited broadband internet access + terminally dull workmates) x lack of interest in work (squared) = forum postings x10 6(exp)
Well that's my excuse :)))
Cheers
Steve

[jens hucke]

Actually - if you check your back copies of the NDC Bullettin the BSAC recommended way of wearing your Octopus is on the right ...

Dear John,
Regarding AAS.

I am not too bothered what system other divers use, so this is IMVHO.
On page 75 of Teaching Scuba, the AAS progression shows that the octopus is on the left hand side.
On page 62,63,64 of Safety and Rescue For Divers, all diagrams and pictures show the AAS being given from the left hand side., and that is the configuration I use when training with a single cylinder.
For me this means that I haven't got an AAS hose passing accross my throat, especially in the old style training that required us to swim for a couple of minutes. I also never had any problems trying to breath from my own Octy, as the hose is long enough to easily flex so that it is the right way up for me too, if needed.
I have found that AAS trainees found this by far the easiest method too, with the octy from the right being second, and the air2 coming in last.

regards
Jens

[Andy Wade]

:=It is just incredably irritating that as an organisation we
:=cant put together an exam database without errors and even more irritating that once found, such errors are not removed.

I'm usually more concerned about the glaring ambiguities and the (IMO) rather pointless questions, like that one about naming the benefits of diving from a RIB, always first in line for the rewrite.

Guess this comes back to the issue of the apparent yawning chasm between HQ and "the front line" and something which could have been addressed by the Instructor mailing list idea - who remembers that...?

I would have suggested mailing or writing to someone and trying to get a ball rolling on such issues, but having seen a little of the Kafka-esque style of our organization it would probably be more productive to sort something out over on DiveInstruct (which has gone very quiet over recent months).

Hello Steve,
Yes Dive Instruct has gone quiet hasn't it?
Sorry about that, a house move, a computer change (still in progress) and a brand new baby girl called Emma 9 weeks ago, have put paid to any plans I ever had.

I do however plan to keep going with Dive Instruct, and still welcome any inputs people have. A complete website overhaul is well overdue I think.
I have recently received a whole load of new Powerpoint downloads from Mark Murphy (Cheers Mark) for the latest format SDC's and plan to add them to the website soon, just a soon as I get my old computer contents transferred to the new one.
For some reason they don't want to talk to each other, the File transfer wizard is having problems.
I may just have to get the old hard drive installed in the new computer as a second drive.



.

[Steve Walker]

:=:=It is just incredably irritating that as an organisation we
:=:=cant put together an exam database without errors and even more irritating that once found, such errors are not removed.
:=
:=I'm usually more concerned about the glaring ambiguities and the (IMO) rather pointless questions, like that one about naming the benefits of diving from a RIB, always first in line for the rewrite.
:=
:=Guess this comes back to the issue of the apparent yawning chasm between HQ and "the front line" and something which could have been addressed by the Instructor mailing list idea - who remembers that...?
:=
:=I would have suggested mailing or writing to someone and trying to get a ball rolling on such issues, but having seen a little of the Kafka-esque style of our organization it would probably be more productive to sort something out over on DiveInstruct (which has gone very quiet over recent months).

Hello Steve,
Yes Dive Instruct has gone quiet hasn't it?
Sorry about that, a house move, a computer change (still in progress) and a brand new baby girl called Emma 9 weeks ago, have put paid to any plans I ever had.

I do however plan to keep going with Dive Instruct, and still welcome any inputs people have. A complete website overhaul is well overdue I think.
I have recently received a whole load of new Powerpoint downloads from Mark Murphy (Cheers Mark) for the latest format SDC's and plan to add them to the website soon, just a soon as I get my old computer contents transferred to the new one.
For some reason they don't want to talk to each other, the File transfer wizard is having problems.
I may just have to get the old hard drive installed in the new computer as a second drive.


Congratulations Andy, no doubt most of your future postings will be 3am during feeding bouts :))

[John Williams]

Jens,

Almost exactly my point!

just because someone does something in a different way from the way that "You" choose to do it does not mean that they *MUST* be from a different agency.

The BSAC is always actively promoting a "Whatever works" attitude - as long as a system is adopted that meets the needs of the situation that you are training to deal with.

There is advice available, from various sources, not all of which is the same - but all meets the training needs.

My objection to the original post was the attitude that

1) The is only one BSAC way of doing things
2) Anyone not doing it the way advocated by a particular instructor must either be
a) exhibiting poor practice
b) from an "inferior" agency.

This is not only ludicrously egotistical and total rubbish - it is defamatory and insulting.

Your own posts show you to be open minded and flexible - two qualities I admire and respect in an instructor. The opposite attitude is to be challenged at EVERY opportunity.

All the best


John

[Gordon Archer]

Jens,

Almost exactly my point!

just because someone does something in a different way from the way that "You" choose to do it does not mean that they *MUST* be from a different agency.

The BSAC is always actively promoting a "Whatever works" attitude - as long as a system is adopted that meets the needs of the situation that you are training to deal with.

There is advice available, from various sources, not all of which is the same - but all meets the training needs.

My objection to the original post was the attitude that

1) The is only one BSAC way of doing things
2) Anyone not doing it the way advocated by a particular instructor must either be
a) exhibiting poor practice
b) from an "inferior" agency.

This is not only ludicrously egotistical and total rubbish - it is defamatory and insulting.

Your own posts show you to be open minded and flexible - two qualities I admire and respect in an instructor. The opposite attitude is to be challenged at EVERY opportunity.

All the best


John

Well said! there is no real BSAC way if it works and the standards are met, whatever.
One thing that has always stuck with me from the instructor training days, was where the national instructors stated that if you see a technique that works in a given situation, then steal it.

To continue the which side debate of octopus rigs:-
I like the Auto air option for the precise reason that both methods can be taught, due to it being omni directional.
I find an extension hose simplifies its deployment in use, both in teaching & for real situations. It really works.
Don't knock it if you haven't tried it, but consider it as an alternative, it can also delete a hose.:-)

The NDC bulletin refers to actual incident deployment and make's the recommendation it does from a study of those incidents.
So is training to made easy for trainings sake(left hand), and actual incidents differ or do we train for the actual possible incident?(Right Hand):-)
We can do both.

[Trevor M]

The BSAC is always actively promoting a "Whatever works" attitude - as long as a system is adopted that meets the needs of the situation that you are training to deal with.


Purely playing Devil's Advocate here, but compare your statement above with the statement (and discussion) on the Instructor forum regarding Dive's statement of:

"Work on correct weighting for buoyancy. If you are diving in a drysuit, use ONLY the suit inflator and dump for buoyancy control" [My caps]

Is this promoting a 'Whatever works' attitude? Shouldn't Dive mirror the BSAC way of thinking?

T

[john kendall]

:=The BSAC is always actively promoting a "Whatever works" attitude - as long as a system is adopted that meets the needs of the situation that you are training to deal with.


Purely playing Devil's Advocate here, but compare your statement above with the statement (and discussion) on the Instructor forum regarding Dive's statement of:

"Work on correct weighting for buoyancy. If you are diving in a drysuit, use ONLY the suit inflator and dump for buoyancy control" [My caps]

Is this promoting a 'Whatever works' attitude? Shouldn't Dive mirror the BSAC way of thinking?

Oh, but it is:

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/sdpdh.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/sdpdh.htm</a>

Look at the Drysuits section:

"The NDC recommends that drysuited divers adjust their buoyancy underwater by introducing air into their drysuits, rather than into their buoyancy compensators"

John

[John Williams]

:=The BSAC is always actively promoting a "Whatever works" attitude - as long as a system is adopted that meets the needs of the situation that you are training to deal with.


Purely playing Devil's Advocate here, but compare your statement above with the statement (and discussion) on the Instructor forum regarding Dive's statement of:

"Work on correct weighting for buoyancy. If you are diving in a drysuit, use ONLY the suit inflator and dump for buoyancy control" [My caps]

Is this promoting a 'Whatever works' attitude? Shouldn't Dive mirror the BSAC way of thinking?

T


This is the logical conclusion from... Keep It Simple Stupid
(KISS)

why introduce the need to control/manage two sources of buoyancy when conducting a rescue?
Or for that matter - why add another task to an already highly task-loaded situation in normal diving?

You need to put air into your suit as you descend (if you value your family jewels that is). Staying comfortable should be enough to maintain neutral buoyancy.

If it is not - then look again at your weight set up. If you have too much lead then you will need too much air in your suit - leading to migration and poor balance underwater. Too much lead (and therefore too much air in the suit) also leads to loss of buoyancy control on approiaching the surface - because the excess air expands into far too much air. The natural response to this is, unfortunately, to add more lead....making the problem worse.

I have had course to remove 20lb of lead from someone who took this negative feedback cycle to extremes!!!

Stab-Jackets/ABLJs are (IMVHO) for surface and rescue use only when a diver is wearing a drysuit.

The current advice from the BSAC is to reduce the potential for things going wrong wherever possible (hence to use only once source of buoyancy prior to an ascent).

It is also to ensure that the maximum resource is available to you in an emergency - hence reserving the full buoyancy capacity of your Stab-jacket/ABLJ for an emergency lift or for security at the surface before/after the dive (and not using some of that capacity to complicate your routine underwater buoyancy)

HTH you to understand the reasoning behind the advice....though of course you are free to ignore the reasoning and do it your own way (that's what makes the BSAC such a wonderful organisation!)

John

[TerryH]

:=
My objection to the original post was the attitude that

1) The is only one BSAC way of doing things
2) Anyone not doing it the way advocated by a particular instructor must either be
a) exhibiting poor practice
b) from an "inferior" agency.

This is not only ludicrously egotistical and total rubbish - it is defamatory and insulting.


Hey John, once you get off your soapbox you might like to note
that my original post did not make ANY inference that other
agency divers are better or worse than BSAC.

As a PADI pro, I might get QA'd if I had!

It is an absolute fact that if you have an established
training regime then the majority of divers will tend to adopt
broadly similar configerations. A very obvious example is the
absolute dictate from PADI (always during training at least)
that divers wear snorkels. So if you see a UK diver with a
snorkel you can be at least 90% certain they are PADI.
Does this make them bad? Of course not.

In my post I only referred to agency diffrences as a method of
identification and nothing more.

TerryH

[John Williams]

:=:=
:=My objection to the original post was the attitude that
:=
:=1) The is only one BSAC way of doing things
:=2) Anyone not doing it the way advocated by a particular instructor must either be
:= a) exhibiting poor practice
:= b) from an "inferior" agency.
:=
:=This is not only ludicrously egotistical and total rubbish - it is defamatory and insulting.
:=

Hey John, once you get off your soapbox you might like to note
that my original post did not make ANY inference that other
agency divers are better or worse than BSAC.

As a PADI pro, I might get QA'd if I had!

It is an absolute fact that if you have an established
training regime then the majority of divers will tend to adopt
broadly similar configerations. A very obvious example is the
absolute dictate from PADI (always during training at least)
that divers wear snorkels. So if you see a UK diver with a
snorkel you can be at least 90% certain they are PADI.
Does this make them bad? Of course not.

In my post I only referred to agency diffrences as a method of
identification and nothing more.

TerryH




Ok...but the thread was developed by others into a pointless and degrading PADI-bashing exercise.(degrading to all decent divers - regardless of agency).

The sooner the diving fraternity gets to grips with the fact that we are all divers and therefore better than non-divers the sooner we can all get on with enjoying diving and converting the unwashed heathen masses into divers.

It IS a soap-box of mine. I have chosen BSAC as my agency ...mainly because that's where I started and it has always met my diving needs. I beleive that BSAC meets my needs better than any other agency could...but that does not mean I don't respect choice, diversity - or the quality of divers produced by other agencies.

Others seem much more "tribal"...and their prejudice sets the cause of diving and of the BSAC back every time they voice it.

All the best


John

[Adrian Kelland]

The sooner the diving fraternity gets to grips with the fact that we are all divers and therefore better than non-divers the sooner we can all get on with enjoying diving and converting the unwashed heathen masses into divers.

John, make them wash first so they don't pollute things any more :-)

It strikes me that the spats that go on in the various fora make us all look rather daft, no matter what agency we are. It all get rather nit-picky.

Adrian

[John Williams]

:=The sooner the diving fraternity gets to grips with the fact that we are all divers and therefore better than non-divers the sooner we can all get on with enjoying diving and converting the unwashed heathen masses into divers.

John, make them wash first so they don't pollute things any more :-)

It strikes me that the spats that go on in the various fora make us all look rather daft, no matter what agency we are. It all get rather nit-picky.

Adrian

Absolutley!

The sooner we realise that a diver is a diver (regardless of where they trained) and therefore superior to a non-diver the better.

We should concentrate on "taking the word" to non-divers instead of fighting amongst ourselves.

Safe Diving &
Successful Preaching

John

[Philip Smith]

You need to put air into your suit as you descend (if you value your family jewels that is). Staying comfortable should be enough to maintain neutral buoyancy.

This works adequately for single cylinder diving, but not for twin set/stage cylinder diving, where the weight of redundant gas required can be too much to be safely compensated by a drysuit's buoyancy alone at the beginning of the dive.

why introduce the need to control/manage two sources of buoyancy when conducting a rescue?

You don't need to. Use the stab/wing for the CBL and allow the dry suit to vent freely.

Philip Smith