Stickers, got stung! Doh!!

[Steve Walker]

Even though I've had plenty of fills at this shop since the new regs came in, my tanks were suddenly found to be "unable to be filled" last week as I hadn't yet put any Breathing Air stickers on them, 2 quid a shot (it's a twinset) which the store owner reckoned is what he was charged by SITA.

You can imagine I was a bit miffed to find out that you can get them from BSAC mailshop for 12p each ! Thanks to that outstanding piece of racketeering, that's one Tynemouth-based dive shop (there's only one so that narrows it down a bit) that has lost a customer who's been spending quite a bit there over the past few months and had planned to spend more.

My understanding was that EN 1089 (part 2) mandatory contents sticker were not a "legal requirement", this guy said it was illegal for him to fill them without stickers. Additionally I understood that even if they _were_ to become suddenly mandatory, they would only apply to tanks tested under BS EN 1968:2002 (Steel) or BS EN 1802:2002 (Aluminium).

Regards

[paddy diver]

The requirement is that new cylinders OR cylinders tested after sept. 2002 must be labeled with the contents of the cylinder.

If your cylinder was tested before sept 2002 and is still in test, then you are not required to have a sticker on it.

I reckon the trade price for some of the larger stickers is 1.50, so 2 quid doesn't sound too bad to me. I wouldn't expect to get much in the way of quality for 12 pence.

[Steve Walker]

If your cylinder was tested before sept 2002 and is still in test, then you are not required to have a sticker on it.

That's precisely it, they've got April 2002 test stamps but the shop refused to fill them unless I bought their stickers - so be advised anyone who uses a certain LDS in Tynemouth for their fills that they seem to have their own interpretations of the new regulations. Incidentally these ?2.00 stickers are approx 1" x 6".
I also discovered recently that I'd been seriously "had" with one of my previous purchases from them, too late now but it won't be happening again I can tell you.

I wouldn't expect to get much in the way of quality for 12 pence.
I'll let you know what they're like when I receive the ones for my other tanks, I'm sure HQ wouldn't foster shoddy goods on us
Cheers

[David Leon]

Steve

If I were you I'd go back to the dive shop and tell them why you're upset, give them a chance to make it right, you might be surprised.

There still seems to be confusion amongst filling stations about the new regs, with some interpreting them as you've found. To be on the safe side last year our club got 1 x 6 breathing air stickers directly from SITA for 12p each + VAT. They do the job perfectly and don't advertise any dive shop! I presume the BSAC ones will be similar.

David

[iainmsmith]

I reckon the trade price for some of the larger stickers is 1.50, so 2 quid doesn't sound too bad to me. I wouldn't expect to get much in the way of quality for 12 pence.

Perhaps the issue is one of size, rather than a difference in quality. The "HQ-issue" stickers are about 1" x 6", rather than being 6" tall and wrapping all the way around the tank.

Iain

[Steve Walker]

Steve

If I were you I'd go back to the dive shop and tell them why you're upset, give them a chance to make it right, you might be surprised.

There still seems to be confusion amongst filling stations about the new regs, with some interpreting them as you've found. To be on the safe side last year our club got 1 x 6 breathing air stickers directly from SITA for 12p each + VAT. They do the job perfectly and don't advertise any dive shop! I presume the BSAC ones will be similar.

David

Hmmm.... perhaps, is there a site where I can download the offical details with which to confront these people? The SITA site doesn't have the info available.
It would make an interesting survey, get somone to take an unstickered cylinder into a selection of filling stations and see how many are actually applying the rules correctly, not many I would bet
Cheers

[Paul Oliver]

Steve

I bought for my club a whole bunch of BSAC 12p stickers for our Weymouth trip in May. A lot have come off but those that were put on carfully are still on.

Its not a concern for us most of the year as we fill our own tanks.

My 15l has lost its blue in test and BSAC Nitrox stickers since April, and my O2 clean (Green) one is coming off. Possibly too much hosing down and use.

However i have had Nitrox fills on the stamping and peeling stickers at Breakwater, all other O2 is ok as i am doing the filling.

I know our local shop Simply Scuba check bottles carfully, but i'm not sure on the definative requirements as i can fill for free at our shed. The BSAC ones are small but meet requirements and if you are buying something else from he shop a cheap add on. As i order training manuals quite regularly i now keep a stock of stickers in as well.

Regards and happy filling,

Paul

[ade gorst]

The BSAC stickers are good and I haven't had any problems with them.

Regarding dive shops filling cylinders.... Did you hear the one about the dive shop that refused to fill a cylinder because the test date was stamped on the neck of the cylinder up side down (i.e you could read it if you looked down on the cylinder but not if you looked at it from the side).

[steve parry]

I would like to see a bullet point type guide on the
whole subject of tank testing, markings etc, all from
an authentic source. (SITA, IDTEST, HSE)

In March this year, I replaced the nitrox stickers on my twin set. I bought the stickers for about ?2-3 ea. from the BS-AC stand at the London dive show.

I took my cylinders to our local dive shop yesterday for
visual inspections. I was also advised the BS-AC stickers were now 'illegal'and would have to be replaced at additional cost. No doubt the new stickers will also act as advertisements for the dive shop.

Firstly, am suprised at BS-AC for selling me obsolete/'illegal' stickers.

Secondly, I suggest divers start selling advertising space on
our cylinders, not be charged for the privilege !

Steve Parry
Luton SAC

[Steve Walker]

I would like to see a bullet point type guide on the
whole subject of tank testing, markings etc, all from
an authentic source. (SITA, IDTEST, HSE)

I think some form of offical statement to wave under the noses of tank fillers would definately be in order. These kind of occurences are a cynical ploy to squeeze a few quid from a somewhat confused situation.

In March this year, I replaced the nitrox stickers on my twin set. I bought the stickers for about ?2-3 ea. from the BS-AC stand at the London dive show.

I took my cylinders to our local dive shop yesterday for
visual inspections. I was also advised the BS-AC stickers were now 'illegal'and would have to be replaced at additional cost. No doubt the new stickers will also act as advertisements for the dive shop.


I reckon this is a load of "spheroid objects", as was the garbage I got from my LDS. I'm guessing Keith would probably be concerned about potential libel issues so that kind of limits a "naming and shaming" policy, however I will not be shopping at Deep Blue in Tynemouth following sticker-related shenanigans, how about you Steve P ? Any LDS's who may not be receiving your business in the near future?

Cheers

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

In March this year, I replaced the nitrox stickers on my twin set. I bought the stickers for about ?2-3 ea. from the BS-AC stand at the London dive show.

Can you clarify this please. The large yellow Nitrox stickers are not 'illegal' as such but they are not sufficient to comply with current legislation. The addition of a small SITA/BSAC sticker (12p each from the BSAC MailShop) should be all that is required to comply.

Regards

Keith L

[TerryH]

Bit of a defence for both BSAC & Dive shops.

Over the past few months the actual regulations on what is
required have not been entirely clear and dive shops cannot
(IMO) be blamed for not taking any chances, it is they who get
fined after all.
There was definate a grey area over the cut off date and if
an "in test" cylinder was/wasnt ok.

If you were a shop, would you take a chance?

As for BSAC and LIDS. If you asked on the stand if the stickers
were ok, then you would have got the same awnser that Keith
gave. If you just paid your money over the counter and stuffed
them in a bag that's you problem.

All depends if you actually asked the question.

You get a new sticker every 2.5 years anyway when they are
tested. Ask nicely and I bet you can get a new one gratis
when you O2 clean them.

TerryH

[Philip Smith]

Can you clarify this please. The large yellow Nitrox stickers are not 'illegal' as such but they are not sufficient to comply with current legislation.

Part of the confusion is that the current _legislation_ relating to diving cylinders in the UK does not specify colour coding or labelling. The BS/EN standards which _do_ provide specifications for labelling are not (yet) a legal requirement. SITA, which is a body representing the retail diving trade, not a regulatory body, have decided to adopt those standards in the absence of statutory guidance.

Philip Smith

[Steve Walker]

:=Can you clarify this please. The large yellow Nitrox stickers are not 'illegal' as such but they are not sufficient to comply with current legislation.

Part of the confusion is that the current _legislation_ relating to diving cylinders in the UK does not specify colour coding or labelling. The BS/EN standards which _do_ provide specifications for labelling are not (yet) a legal requirement. SITA, which is a body representing the retail diving trade, not a regulatory body, have decided to adopt those standards in the absence of statutory guidance.

Philip Smith

So all this talk of filling cylinders without stickers being "illegal" is hogwash, correct? If so why are the LDS's getting away with this?
Regards

[PeteM]

So all this talk of filling cylinders without stickers being "illegal" is hogwash, correct? If so why are the LDS's getting away with this?

Because they are not obliged to fill anything - so if they don't want to fill cylinders unless they are pink with blue mesh nets they are perfectly within their rights to decline.

[Philip Smith]

:=So all this talk of filling cylinders without stickers being "illegal" is hogwash, correct? If so why are the LDS's getting away with this?

Because they are not obliged to fill anything - so if they don't want to fill cylinders unless they are pink with blue mesh nets they are perfectly within their rights to decline.

Quite so, but they shouldn't justify it on the basis of legality -- they only need to say that they are operating to a particular standard for the safety of their staff and customers.

Philip Smith

[Steve Walker]

:=:=So all this talk of filling cylinders without stickers being "illegal" is hogwash, correct? If so why are the LDS's getting away with this?
:=
:=Because they are not obliged to fill anything - so if they don't want to fill cylinders unless they are pink with blue mesh nets they are perfectly within their rights to decline.

Quite so, but they shouldn't justify it on the basis of legality -- they only need to say that they are operating to a particular standard for the safety of their staff and customers.

Philip Smith

Good point Philip, and if they're going to BS you on one matter, can you trust them on other matters ...?

[Wilf]

I would like to see a bullet point type guide on the
whole subject of tank testing, markings etc, all from
an authentic source. (SITA, IDTEST, HSE)

>> Snipped

So would I but I certainly would not regard any statement from SITA or IDEST as in the end users best interests. It is time that a definative statement on this subject was issued by the HSE (only the HSE).

WT

[Steve Parry]

I reckon this is a load of "spheroid objects", as was the garbage I got from my LDS. I'm guessing Keith would probably be concerned about potential libel issues so that kind of limits a "naming and shaming" policy, however I will not be shopping at Deep Blue in Tynemouth following sticker-related shenanigans, how about you Steve P ? Any LDS's who may not be receiving your business in the near future?

Cheers
Steve P- I have thought about this and......
I have done my own research into the subject regarding stickers
on tanks. Firstly, BS-AC shop maintain the large yellow/green
stickers are still OK. However I spoke to the HSE & SITA.
SITA have a booklet that explains all about the new tank markings and reccomendations & justifications including
sample sticker artwork. Seems these are transitional reccomendations and the dust (EU-wise) has yet to settle on this subject. Having read the SITA booklet & in fairness to the dive shops,the dive shops are only following thier own trade association reccomendations.

The rub is:

Yellow/green as used on NITROX stickers. These
colours are now assigned (internationaly) to other hazardous
gaseous nasties. (seems yellow/green for NITROX was adopted from the USA).

The little cylinder neck stickers are only meant to be used
once.

The dive shop are told to put thier name on the bigger permenant
stickers because the SITA booklet advises this is for tracability etc.

And guess who sits on the board of SITA and should know all this, but continues to sell green/ yellow nitrox stickers
against the reccomendations of SITA ?

yes you guessed it- BS-AC

[Steve Parry]

:=I would like to see a bullet point type guide on the
:=whole subject of tank testing, markings etc, all from
:=an authentic source. (SITA, IDTEST, HSE)
:=
>> Snipped

So would I but I certainly would not regard any statement from SITA or IDEST as in the end users best interests. It is time that a definative statement on this subject was issued by the HSE (only the HSE).

WT

Steve P
So would I. I phoned up the HSE and they can't issue these bullet points because the legistation regarding this subject is
still evolving. ie: by this I mean tank coulours/labels.

The stickers being promoted by dive shops are based on guidelines produced by SITA. SITA have decided some form of
interim colour/marking 'tinkering' is appropriate ahead
of true legistaltion, then it may all change again. If the
dive shop are SITA/ IDEST members, then they will follow
the dictats they are issued with.

[Steve Parry]

Bit of a defence for both BSAC & Dive shops.

Over the past few months the actual regulations on what is
required have not been entirely clear and dive shops cannot
(IMO) be blamed for not taking any chances, it is they who get
fined after all.
There was definate a grey area over the cut off date and if
an "in test" cylinder was/wasnt ok.

If you were a shop, would you take a chance?

As for BSAC and LIDS. If you asked on the stand if the stickers
were ok, then you would have got the same awnser that Keith
gave. If you just paid your money over the counter and stuffed
them in a bag that's you problem.

All depends if you actually asked the question.

You get a new sticker every 2.5 years anyway when they are
tested. Ask nicely and I bet you can get a new one gratis
when you O2 clean them.

TerryH

ABSOLUTE CRAP. HAVE YOU NEVER HEARD OF THE SALE OF GOODS ACT
(goods should be fit for purpose) & DUTY OF CARE ?

[TerryH]

:=
ABSOLUTE CRAP. HAVE YOU NEVER HEARD OF THE SALE OF GOODS ACT
(goods should be fit for purpose) & DUTY OF CARE ?

Usual use of good english Steve!

So let me see BSAC sold you a sticker that says Nitrox.
I have a Seven tenths one on my box & a body glove one on my
toolkit. Please correct me if I am wrong, but none of these
have ANY legal ramifications. They are after all just
stickers.

If you went to the BSAC mailshop at the show and asked for
the "official/current/Air/Nitrox" stickers and were given the
old green ones. then you would be absolutely right in spouting
sale of goods act, but only in the fact that the shop would be
misinforming you.

If on the other hand you pointed to a green sticker, said how
much and handed over your dosh, then the shop was NOT doing
anything wrong. They were simply selling a sticker.
It would have been you that made the assumption.

So come on Steve, be honest.
Did you assume it was the one, or did you ask?

Big difference.

TerryH