Could someone write a ?wings for dummies? article for Dive?

[Lynn Jackson]

I?m looking at buying a wing this year but I?m a bit lost. My club doesn?t have wing owning members who can give me basic advice from buying to setting up a wing.

I have read all posts on this recently and thank everyone for their contributions so I know what?s out there and where to buy. I also have a rough idea on the size of wing I want to buy (45 ? 50lbs?) but I know there?s more I need to know ? *really* basic things like:

What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr + pony to twin 7ltrs in future?
Do I have to buy a back plate separately?
Do BPs come in different types/sizes?
How do I fit it all together?
How do I fit the harness correctly?
How do I weight the wing correctly?
What changes do I need to make to my kit storage? (where on earth do I put my reel and DSMB where it won?t get in the way/cause unnecessary drag?)
Where can I go for training on buoyancy control and emergency procedures with my correctly set-up wing and kit?

I did contemplate the DIR route but don?t think I?d be let in ?cos
a) I?m a girl
b) I own a pink and black drysuit
c) I have no intention of dumping old buddies along with my old kit
d) I?m probably not good/hard/serious enough (delete as applicable)


I have looked but all articles I've found miss the 'obvious' information that I'm going to need to know before getting into the water safely.

I?m sure that if offered to Dive magazine they?d jump at the chance of publishing an article like this.

And I?d be the first to read it?. :-)

[Ben Field]

> What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr +
> pony to twin 7ltrs in future?

If you don't think you'll ever use larger cylinders than that, then a "small" wing such as Dive-Rite Rec wing would be suitable, buying a wing thats too big will create lots of issues....

> Do I have to buy a back plate separately?

Depends were you buy... backplates are cheap and cheerful, try- www.backplates.com [It's .com Ben! - Keith L]

> Do BPs come in different types/sizes?

Not generally, you can find "sized" ones if you hunt around but the standard size fits most everyone I've ever met.

> How do I fit it all together?

You'll find that backplates have a couple of holes in them, normally 11" apart and a matching pair on the wing. With a twinset you'll find them connected together by two "twinning bands," a stainless figure of eight to hold them together and if you have a Manifolded twinset to maintain there position in relationship to that.

Twinning bands are clamped in place with a large M8 (usually) threaded shaft, this will extend beyond the tanks to the front, you can then lay the wing over the shafts and the backplate on top, a washer and wingnut then holds the sandwhich together.
(No more slipping tanks and horrible tank mesh!)

> How do I fit the harness correctly?

Depends if you buy a commercial harness or make your own?
Several mtrs of stiff weightbelt material, some D-rings and weight retainers are the cheapest method (no more than ?15) there are lots of guides on the web to making a single piece (DIR style) harness, theres no reason you should loose friends or buddies for doing this- unless they and/or you are unable to cope with alittle bit of change from time to time! :)

If you need to fit a single tank you'll need a wing that has tank straps- (such as a Pioneer wing from Halcyon) or a STA (single tank adapter) which is normally a metal bar with bolts on one side and cambands (like a stab) on the other.

> How do I weight the wing correctly?

The typical approach is to weight yourself exactly as you normally would, ie- able to maintain buoyancy with 30-50bar in tanks, however the difference lies in where you put it.

If you plan to use a crotch strap with your harness then a waist strap style weight belt won't be dumpable in the same way as it used to be, you'll need weight pockets on the harness waist straps instead. Other choose to mount V-weights (V shaped lead blocks) between the twinset tanks to aid trim and keep everything together, obviously this means you can't dump it, which is not something covered by BSAC....

> What changes do I need to make to my kit storage? (where on
> earth do I put my reel and DSMB where it won?t get in the
> way/cause unnecessary drag?)

Depends what reels/DSMB's you, I hang my reels from large stainless keyring loops that are on the bottom edge of my backplate, I always keep my main DSMB bungied tight to the side of my reel so its ready to deploy, in water it sits on my hip.

Many people hang them from the waist D-Rings however once prone in the water they will hang below the diver and could get hooked up.

Some people also fit pockets to their suit (I have large cargo pockets from O'three on the outside of my thighs) these take my lift bag, emergancy DSMB, spare torch, wet nots, etc.

> Where can I go for training on buoyancy control and emergency > procedures with my correctly set-up wing and kit?

Err, hopefully the buoyancy and emergancy procedures (I assume you means CBL, AV on surface etc?) should be almost the same as for a Stab jacket. You may find the buoyancy alittle more stable underwater, the air has less room to "migrate" around the diver as in a stab and I find leads to a more relaxed, prone diving position, afterall, we're genrally looking at the bottom!

Some people will tell you its all dreadfully technical and scary and you'll die... ignore these people. :)

> I did contemplate the DIR route but don?t think I?d be let
> in ?cos
> a) I?m a girl

Nothing wrong with that is there?

>b) I own a pink and black drysuit

And the problem here is?

>c) I have no intention of dumping old buddies along with
> my old kit

DIR is a huge topic, its more than kit and black suits, I suspect its not what your after anyway?

d) I?m probably not good/hard/serious enough (delete as
> applicable)

Diving a twinset or so-called technical setup doesn't mean you have to be good/hard/serious, I know some terrible soft, wimpy and humourous technical divers!

Finally I'm sure a local club must have a techy/twinset diving %, hopefully on seeing this they will get in touch and you can see and maybe try out the kit properly, before committing hard earned ? on kit.

regards,
BEN

[Ben Field]

> What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr +
> pony to twin 7ltrs in future?

If you don't think you'll ever use larger cylinders than that, then a "small" wing such as Dive-Rite Rec wing would be suitable, buying a wing thats too big will create lots of issues....

> Do I have to buy a back plate separately?

Depends were you buy... backplates are cheap and cheerful, try- www.backplates.co.uk

> Do BPs come in different types/sizes?

Not generally, you can find "sized" ones if you hunt around but the standard size fits most everyone I've ever met.

> How do I fit it all together?

You'll find that backplates have a couple of holes in them, normally 11" apart and a matching pair on the wing. With a twinset you'll find them connected together by two "twinning bands," a stainless figure of eight to hold them together and if you have a Manifolded twinset to maintain there position in relationship to that.

Twinning bands are clamped in place with a large M8 (usually) threaded shaft, this will extend beyond the tanks to the front, you can then lay the wing over the shafts and the backplate on top, a washer and wingnut then holds the sandwhich together.
(No more slipping tanks and horrible tank mesh!)

> How do I fit the harness correctly?

Depends if you buy a commercial harness or make your own?
Several mtrs of stiff weightbelt material, some D-rings and weight retainers are the cheapest method (no more than ?15) there are lots of guides on the web to making a single piece (DIR style) harness, theres no reason you should loose friends or buddies for doing this- unless they and/or you are unable to cope with alittle bit of change from time to time! :)

If you need to fit a single tank you'll need a wing that has tank straps- (such as a Pioneer wing from Halcyon) or a STA (single tank adapter) which is normally a metal bar with bolts on one side and cambands (like a stab) on the other.

> How do I weight the wing correctly?

The typical approach is to weight yourself exactly as you normally would, ie- able to maintain buoyancy with 30-50bar in tanks, however the difference lies in where you put it.

If you plan to use a crotch strap with your harness then a waist strap style weight belt won't be dumpable in the same way as it used to be, you'll need weight pockets on the harness waist straps instead. Other choose to mount V-weights (V shaped lead blocks) between the twinset tanks to aid trim and keep everything together, obviously this means you can't dump it, which is not something covered by BSAC....

> What changes do I need to make to my kit storage? (where on
> earth do I put my reel and DSMB where it won?t get in the
> way/cause unnecessary drag?)

Depends what reels/DSMB's you, I hang my reels from large stainless keyring loops that are on the bottom edge of my backplate, I always keep my main DSMB bungied tight to the side of my reel so its ready to deploy, in water it sits on my hip.

Many people hang them from the waist D-Rings however once prone in the water they will hang below the diver and could get hooked up.

Some people also fit pockets to their suit (I have large cargo pockets from O'three on the outside of my thighs) these take my lift bag, emergancy DSMB, spare torch, wet nots, etc.

> Where can I go for training on buoyancy control and emergency > procedures with my correctly set-up wing and kit?

Err, hopefully the buoyancy and emergancy procedures (I assume you means CBL, AV on surface etc?) should be almost the same as for a Stab jacket. You may find the buoyancy alittle more stable underwater, the air has less room to "migrate" around the diver as in a stab and I find leads to a more relaxed, prone diving position, afterall, we're genrally looking at the bottom!

Some people will tell you its all dreadfully technical and scary and you'll die... ignore these people. :)

> I did contemplate the DIR route but don?t think I?d be let
> in ?cos
> a) I?m a girl

Nothing wrong with that is there?

>b) I own a pink and black drysuit

And the problem here is?

>c) I have no intention of dumping old buddies along with
> my old kit

DIR is a huge topic, its more than kit and black suits, I suspect its not what your after anyway?

d) I?m probably not good/hard/serious enough (delete as
> applicable)

Diving a twinset or so-called technical setup doesn't mean you have to be good/hard/serious, I know some terrible soft, wimpy and humourous technical divers!

Finally I'm sure a local club must have a techy/twinset diving %, hopefully on seeing this they will get in touch and you can see and maybe try out the kit properly, before committing hard earned ? on kit.

regards,
BEN

[Steve Walker]

That's a real can of worms to open up, you're going to get a whole range of answers which is probably going to leave you less informed than you are at the minute :))
But to be constructive I'll have my go at answering some of your questions, all IMVHO of course and others will say the opposite.

but I know there?s more I need to know ? *really* basic things like:

What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr + pony to twin 7ltrs in future?

I'm guessing you're talking about amount of lift? some folk want the smallest they can "get away with" others like me just have a big wing and fill it (or not as is usually the case) as required. As it is bungied it makes no difference.

Do I have to buy a back plate separately?
Do BPs come in different types/sizes?
How do I fit it all together?

You can buy package deals from most decent suppliers, usually with sme discount which is nice, or you can buy every piece seperately if you choose to. I believe BPs are pretty standard sizes though I'm sure there are some minor differences, IIRC Custom divers ones are slightly differnt size to others but don't quote me on that.
With twins your have bolts to fix tank(s)/bladder/harness, with a single you will probably have just soft cam belts to do the same job (except with metal single tank adaptors e.g.OMS model)

How do I fit the harness correctly?

I've got the OMS IQ harness so it's similar to a regular BCD with pull-straps

How do I weight the wing correctly?

Stick some at the back to help keep you upright when on the surface.

What changes do I need to make to my kit storage? (where on earth do I put my reel and DSMB where it won?t get in the way/cause unnecessary drag?)

Mine is cliped to a D ring on my harness left front side a littel below the level of my inflator.
As for drag, I don't find that is so much of an issue, it's not as if we're as sleek as penguins (which have, apparently, the most effective underwater morphology possible). Plus you should see the size of my torch, it'd cause more drag than Lily Savage in Topgirl ;)

Where can I go for training on buoyancy control and emergency procedures with my correctly set-up wing and kit?

Any wing-toting Instructor should be able to help you out, but IMO, it ain't that much different apart from the tipping forwards tendency if the wing is used with a single but without adding extra weight at the back, others disagree that this actually happens but I guess you've read those posts already.


I did contemplate the DIR route but don?t think I?d be let in ?cos
a) I?m a girl
b) I own a pink and black drysuit
c) I have no intention of dumping old buddies along with my old kit
d) I?m probably not good/hard/serious enough (delete as applicable)


e) you have too much of a sense of humour ;)
I'm saying absolutely nothing more ever again about that acronym, except that by definition there aren't any partial-DIR divers, it's all or nothing so if you have to think about it too long then it's probably not for you (it's certainly not for me).

Just for reference purposes, my setup is
2x10 litres
MDE iso-manifold and CD valve guards
OMS 100lb bungied bladder
IQ harness
Miscellaneous: single SPG, long hose on primary reg, all other hoses standard, wing inflator bungeed underarm to left side of harness, binned the chest strap, kept the crotch strap, and the whole kit & caboodle is inverted ? la RN style
Not yet added P/V weights but plan to (weightbelts are a PITA at times)

HTH
Steve

[Nick Kay]

Its (as usual) a case of you pays your money, you makes your choice...

What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr + pony to twin 7ltrs in future?
I see more and more people (esp. women) diving on twin 7s, better balanced, better redundancy, more available gas. Lots of them say the rig feels lighter than a stab/bcd with a 12 - esp. if you add on a pony...

Do I have to buy a back plate separately?
No, most wings (can) come with backplates. I bought a Csutome Divers wing but bought the backplate from Portland Oceaneering - liked the "carry handle" on the backplate - makes lugging twins about much easier... Also bought the harness from them - single piece of webbing, came complete & fitted to the backplate with requisite D-rings and a scooter ring (don't have a scooter, but useful for "storing" additional clips/carabiners...)

Do BPs come in different types/sizes?
Pass / not that I'm aware of.

How do I fit the harness correctly?
To you or to the backplate? If to you, no particular difference than sorting out a stab/bcd - excepting theres probably more adjustment available

How do I weight the wing correctly?
Some wings come with trim pockets, others don't. I found a bigger difference when I swapped my drysuit - went from an Otter compressed neoprane and 6-8kg (depending on stages) to a DUI - heavy even with no weight belt in fresh water / 2kg dependent on stages carried.

What changes do I need to make to my kit storage? (where on earth do I put my reel and DSMB where it won?t get in the way/cause unnecessary drag?)
Lots of people now seem to have a "pocket" mounted at the bottom of the backplate - takes emergency (yellow) dsmb, spare torch, other stuff.

Also, try & get on a kit configuration course with Jack Ingle, or take the ERD course if he's instructing...

I did contemplate the DIR route but don?t think I?d be let in ?cos
a) I?m a girl
b) I own a pink and black drysuit
c) I have no intention of dumping old buddies along with my old kit
d) I?m probably not good/hard/serious enough (delete as applicable)

You forgot the:
e) change your regs to Poseidon
f) change your lights
g) etc. etc.

The final comment - work out the sort of diving you want to do and get kit that fits with that interest. Go out & practise with it before you go for a "proper" dive. Keep practising. You'll find that once you start with a wing setup, there'll probably always be something (minor or major) you want to change before the next dive - just take it steady, small, incremental steps...

However, its all worth while, IMHO diving on a wing is easier/more relaxing than a "chunky" stab/bcd...

[Lynn Jackson]

Ben, Steve and Nick.

Many thanks for this info: www.backplates is a little 'belter' of a site and I'll go on the Jack Ingle course first chance I get.

(I've been diving 4 years and have decided the guffaws from passing strangers as my buddy profile slips off my shoulders causing my tank to smack into the back of my knees is not an image I wish to project any longer).

[Dominic Humphries]

I?m sure that if offered to Dive magazine they?d jump at the chance of publishing an article like this.

And I?d be the first to read it?. :-)

You won't be the first to read it, I'm afraid

But if Dive want to publish it, I could certainly do with the cash :o)

[stu]

> What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr +
> pony to twin 7ltrs in future?

If you don't think you'll ever use larger cylinders than that, then a "small" wing such as Dive-Rite Rec wing would be suitable, buying a wing thats too big will create lots of issues....


I dive a rec wing with twin 12's and a 7 litre stage, copes absolutley fine.

Stu.

[Andy Nye]

Hi Lynn,

Heard today that ya down with us this weekend,feel free to see my BUDDY TRIDENT wing setup, as we are both the same size and build have a play and see how u get on with it if u want to.

C ya saturday

Andy

[Ben Field]

> I dive a rec wing with twin 12's and a 7 litre stage, copes
> absolutley fine.

By large I meant 15's upwards....
Rec wing with 12's is ideal.

(I use the Classic wing with twin 10's and 15's, ali stages)

BEN

[john bache]

My advice is to borrow someone else's wing, and try before you buy. I think that noteworthy points for wings are thus:

They can be more difficult to get the air out of.

They often hold more air than a standard stab jacket.

They don't always hold you face first up in the water unlike most normal stab jackets.

But that said, the proof in the pudding is in the eating, borrow someone else's kit and see which ones you like.

Best of luck !

John.

I?m looking at buying a wing this year but I?m a bit lost. My club doesn?t have wing owning members who can give me basic advice from buying to setting up a wing.

I have read all posts on this recently and thank everyone for their contributions so I know what?s out there and where to buy. I also have a rough idea on the size of wing I want to buy (45 ? 50lbs?) but I know there?s more I need to know ? *really* basic things like:

What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr + pony to twin 7ltrs in future?
Do I have to buy a back plate separately?
Do BPs come in different types/sizes?
How do I fit it all together?
How do I fit the harness correctly?
How do I weight the wing correctly?
What changes do I need to make to my kit storage? (where on earth do I put my reel and DSMB where it won?t get in the way/cause unnecessary drag?)
Where can I go for training on buoyancy control and emergency procedures with my correctly set-up wing and kit?

I did contemplate the DIR route but don?t think I?d be let in ?cos
a) I?m a girl
b) I own a pink and black drysuit
c) I have no intention of dumping old buddies along with my old kit
d) I?m probably not good/hard/serious enough (delete as applicable)


I have looked but all articles I've found miss the 'obvious' information that I'm going to need to know before getting into the water safely.

I?m sure that if offered to Dive magazine they?d jump at the chance of publishing an article like this.

And I?d be the first to read it?. :-)

[angiemac]

What type should I buy if I want to convert from a 12ltr + pony to twin 7ltrs in future?

I've did exactly this with a Dive Rite Transpac II harness and RecWing. Started with 12+pony or 10+pony and nowdive with independent twin 7's but this set up could cope easily with twin 10's.

Do I have to buy a back plate separately?

You don't have to if you buy the transpac harness and use manifolded twins (you can bolt straight through) but I bought one to handle my independent 7's so I could change 1 cylinder easily if required.

Do BPs come in different types/sizes?

YES

How do I fit it all together?

Easily via cambands or bolts

How do I fit the harness correctly?

for DiveRite see your local supplier who will measure you for the right harness size.

How do I weight the wing correctly?

Same way as you would for a BC.

What changes do I need to make to my kit storage? (where on earth do I put my reel and DSMB where it won?t get in the way/cause unnecessary drag?)

I bought a Buddy Trimix pouch to add to the waist band to store things like this in.

Where can I go for training on buoyancy control and emergency procedures with my correctly set-up wing and kit?


I did contemplate the DIR route but don?t think I?d be let in ?cos
a) I?m a girl

So am I

b) I own a pink and black drysuit

REd and Black personally

c) I have no intention of dumping old buddies along with my old kit

Me neither

d) I?m probably not good/hard/serious enough (delete as applicable)

Join the club

If I can help out in any way please e-mail me privately - I'm Essex based if it helps. We have quite a few wing divers in our branch now and I'm sure they would be happy to pass on their experiences.

Angie Mac.

[Andy Nye]

Hi Lynn,

Was good to meet you and ya gang at the BBQ Saturday night, and was great to see so many of you on our boat.

See despite what you hear, i am a nice bloke.( I DON'T let just ANYONE try me kit on and put it thought the test like you did ), but hey, what a good salesman i would make.Don't get that service in ya local dive shop, do ya ?.

Hope you all enjoyed your weekend down here with us , especially the dive site we took you to.

Hope to see you all down here again soon, and i must say,YOU weren't the normal type of NUMPTIES ;-).

Andy

[Lynn Jackson]

I'm honoured Andy!

Thanks for all the hospitality, bacon butties and advice. We all enjoyed ourselves and I certainly hope to do it again next year, with new buddy wing!

Regards,

Lynn