Wing BCDs and CBL

[Matthew Bell]

I purchased a Wing BC to use with my twin 7?s earlier this year. Overall I am pleased with the Wing and comfortable when diving with it, however I have experienced some problems when taking part as a ?victim? during a CBL assessment from 15m.

The lift starts normally, but very quickly goes out of control. The problem is one of not being able to dump air from the BC during the lift, after repeating the CBL in the pool, several things become apparent. First, there is an air bubble moving around inside the wing and this ends up in a position where it can?t be dumped. Second, the shoulder straps unlike a conventional BC prevent the rescuing diver from applying any torque to the ?victim? to turn them into a position where the air inside the wing can be dumped.

I am assuming that this problem is one of technique, or possibly kit configuration.

The Wing is a Custom Divers TCW, with a single bungee thread.

There are concerns that I have purchased a ?stiletto? for divers, i.e. looks fashionable but no damn good.

Thanks,

Matt Bell

[Steve Walker]

The lift starts normally, but very quickly goes out of control. The problem is one of not being able to dump air from the BC during the lift, after repeating the CBL in the pool, several things become apparent. First, there is an air bubble moving around inside the wing and this ends up in a position where it can?t be dumped.

Is the wing oriented so that the bladder/inflator hose points directly to the back of the diver? if so flip it around so it points away from the diver, that way air escapes more easily from the upper part of the wing. The hose then comes over the top of the bladder, it'll also let air out of the hose which can be trapped in the other configuration


Second, the shoulder straps unlike a conventional BC prevent the rescuing diver from applying any torque

Sorry, don't understand that bit, why do the straps stop you manhandling your casualty?

Regards
Steve

[nick kay]

Matt

I bought a TCW and originally thought I had a problem to do with "air migration". Problem was resolved by adjusting/reconfiguring the harness - effectively making it "fit better" (mine's the backplate & harness from Porland Oceaneering).

Also, as the DF is on a longer hose than on a BCD, the tendency is to bring the DF under the arm and then across the chest or up to the right shoulder. Presuming you have one of these configurations, do you get the student to "undo" the DF routing before doing the lift? If not, the casualty will probably be lifted in a non-straight attitude, potentially moving air to one side and causing the problem you describe?

[Ace mcAlpine]

Matt,
I dive with a wing and harness exclusively and have found the following technique alleviates the 'problems' you describe.

From the rescuer's perspective.
Grasp the waist strap of casualty with your left hand, with fingers pointing downwards. (Lift of BC pushed strap into the hand as opposed to the oposite)
Grab casualty's left arm and place it over your right shoulder, put your arm outside of casualty's, reach over the casualty's arm and grasp the inflator. You now have a firm grip of the casualty and can apply the necessary torque so that the inflator/bc join is at the high point. You can now also access any dry bag dumps without changing or loosening any grips. ;-)
Ace

[TerryH]

Remember that your wing is designed to lift twins etc. So it
has shedloads of lift compared to the conventional BC.

A typical BC will have about 17-19kg of lift. A wing can be up
in the 45-50Kg range.

Get a buddy playing with a wing on CBL and chances are that
they will overinflate, leaving a large airpocket and you with
either a painful crotch (crotch strap) or what looks like a
very large may west.

Any air pockets are naturally larger and more likely to cause
problems because the whole point of the design is to lift more
weight.

Next time you are in the pool why not lend your kit to a
similarly sized mate and try CBL on him yourself. Gauge the
ammount of air required and play with the buoyancy. You will
find that no where near as much air is needed as your old BC.

Armed with this info you might have a better chance of
informing your buddies when they try it out on you.

IMO there is nothing wrong with the wing, just needs a less
agggresive approach on the lift.

Try it.

HTH
TerryH

[IAINMSMITH]

Remember that your wing is designed to lift twins etc. So it
has shedloads of lift compared to the conventional BC.

Really? IIRC, a Buddy Commando has more lift than my twinset wing.

A typical BC will have about 17-19kg of lift. A wing can be up
in the 45-50Kg range.

Can be, but goodness knows why you would want anything like that - it's supposed to be a wing attached to your back, not a flipping Zodiac! A 55lb wing (20-ish kg) is quite adequate for twin 12s plus stages.

And don't forget that you get single tank wings also. Mine is a 27lb single tank wing.

Get a buddy playing with a wing on CBL and chances are that
they will overinflate, leaving a large airpocket and you with
either a painful crotch (crotch strap) or what looks like a
very large may west.

Only if one is wearing completely the wrong wing for the kit one is diving.

Any air pockets are naturally larger and more likely to cause
problems because the whole point of the design is to lift more
weight.

Rubbish - the lift is a function of the capacity of the BC, not of the design itself. The point of a wing is that it is more streamlined and more "out of the way" than a stab-jacket. That fact that some manufacturers build wings that could lift the Titanic is not proof that "wings are designed to lift larger objects". My Pioneer will lift less than my old Commando.

Next time you are in the pool why not lend your kit to a
similarly sized mate and try CBL on him yourself. Gauge the
ammount of air required and play with the buoyancy. You will
find that no where near as much air is needed as your old BC.

??? So diving a wing has different laws of buoyancy to diving a BC? Eh??? If one is neutral before the start of the lift, one will have to add exactly the same amount to start the lift...

IMO there is nothing wrong with the wing, just needs a less
agggresive approach on the lift.

Yeah...OK...whatever.

Iain

[TerryH]

Really? IIRC, a Buddy Commando has more lift than my twinset wing.

Depends on the wing.

Commando varies from 17kg (sml) up to 26kg (XXL)
19kg being the average for a large BC.
<a href="http://www.apvalves.com/Prdtsfrmset.html" >http://www.apvalves.com/Prdtsfrmset.html</a>

Dive Rite
Ignoring travel & Twin Bladder, Trek wings start at 18kg,
Super One goes up to 38Kg
<a href="http://www.dive-rite.com/products/bcd/cells.htm" >http://www.dive-rite.com/products/bcd/cells.htm</a>

OMS = Single bladder 20kg ? 27kg
<a href="http://www.omsdive.com/buoyancy.html#DUALBLADDER" >http://www.omsdive.com/buoyancy.html#DUALBLADDER</a>

Or my personal favourite the Zeagle = 30kg of lift
<a href="http://www.zeagle.com/bc2001_tech.htm" >http://www.zeagle.com/bc2001_tech.htm</a>

:=Any air pockets are naturally larger and more likely to cause problems because the whole point of the design is to lift more weight.

Rubbish - the lift is a function of the capacity of the BC, not of the design itself. The point of a wing is that it is more streamlined and more "out of the way" than a stab-jacket. That fact that some manufacturers build wings that could lift the Titanic is not proof that "wings are designed to lift larger objects". My Pioneer will lift less than my old Commando.

Iain get real. While you may have a few wings that have normal
capacity, the vast majority do have larger lifts than a
conventional BC.

Let's assume that you have 5% of air stuck in an air pocket
of a small commando. This BC has 17kg of lift so 0.85kg of
lift is still there. Now lets change to an XXL size. Same BC,
larger bladder thats now a 1.3kg air pocket. Let's change that
to the Zeagle, we are now on 1.5kg!

So based on just 5% trapped air, the Zeagle will have nearly
twice that of a Small Commando.


??? So diving a wing has different laws of buoyancy to diving a BC? Eh???

Depends what you mean by buoyancy. If you mean the actual lift
then No, a bladder is a bladder. If you mean in-water
positioning, air migration and ammount of lift then yes, they
are entirely different.

If one is neutral before the start of the lift, one will have to add exactly the same amount to start the lift...

And that's exactly my point. Half-filling a 17kg BC is not
going to react the same way as half-filling a 30kg wing.


TerryH

[iainmsmith]

:=Really? IIRC, a Buddy Commando has more lift than my twinset wing.

Depends on the wing.

Exactly, which is why you cannot generalise in the way that you were doing.

Dive Rite
Ignoring travel & Twin Bladder, Trek wings start at 18kg,
Super One goes up to 38Kg

See my previous comments about needing a wing, not a Zodiac.

:=:=Any air pockets are naturally larger and more likely to cause problems because the whole point of the design is to lift more weight.

:=Rubbish - the lift is a function of the capacity of the BC, not of the design itself. The point of a wing is that it is more streamlined and more "out of the way" than a stab-jacket. That fact that some manufacturers build wings that could lift the Titanic is not proof that "wings are designed to lift larger objects". My Pioneer will lift less than my old Commando.

Iain get real. While you may have a few wings that have normal
capacity, the vast majority do have larger lifts than a
conventional BC.

So what? That has nothing to do with your inaccurate statement that the point of a wing is to have greater lift than a standard BC. However, the lift of a normal twinset wing is not significantly different from a conventional stab jacket ssuitable for use with twins. Yes, there are some ridiculously large wings out there. That doesn't mean anyone actually ought to use them.

I also note that the original poster is using twin 7s. The great majority of the wings you list are too large for that application. However, even using a 100lb Custom Divers monstrosity with twin 7s will not change the rate of inflation, nor does it change the air distribution. Nor does it change where the air sits in a CBL (at the top of the wing), hence it does not affect the rate of dumping.

You said, "Get a buddy playing with a wing on CBL and chances are that they will overinflate, leaving a large airpocket and you with either a painful crotch (crotch strap) or what looks like a very large may west."

The only cause of that problem is exactly the same as the cause of that problem if diving conventional kit - incompetence. You put enough gas in the BC to start the lift. That gas is not proportional to the maximum size of the BC, it's enough additional buoyancy (measured in absolute terms) to get the
diver moving.

[snip quite a lot which basically says the same as:]

And that's exactly my point. Half-filling a 17kg BC is not
going to react the same way as half-filling a 30kg wing.

But when we are doing CBLs, we don't add air according to the proportion of the BC that we're going to fill, do we? We add enough air to achieve the desired result, which is to render the casualty slightly buoyant. For a neutrally weighted casualty, that is going to be virtually identical, regardless of the BC in use.

Depends what you mean by buoyancy. If you mean the actual lift
then No, a bladder is a bladder. If you mean in-water
positioning, air migration and ammount of lift then yes, they
are entirely different.

Terry - question from Ocean Diver for you. Define "Buoyancy". Buoyancy is buoyancy is buoyancy is the upward force generated by displacing water, that force being equal in magnitude to the weight of the water displaced. Your second statement has nothing to do with buoyancy (and is irrelevant to this discussion which was to do with your assertion that buddies will automatically overinflate.)

If someone can do a CBL properly, they can do it regardless of the BC being worn.

Iain

[Steve Walker]

Yes, there are some ridiculously large wings out there. That doesn't mean anyone actually ought to use them.

Why not?

I also note that the original poster is using twin 7s. The great majority of the wings you list are too large for that application. However, even using a 100lb Custom Divers monstrosity....

Oi! I'm very attached (literally!) to my 100lb OMS bladder ;)
AS it spends the majority of it's time deflated it doesn't look any bigger than a 50 or 70lb one (or whatever the numbers actually are) but should the necessity arise (ie total and utter FUBAR of biblical proportions) I've got enough lift for me and my buddy with twins and stages etc

with twin 7s will not change the rate of inflation, nor does it change the air distribution. Nor does it change where the air sits in a CBL (at the top of the wing), hence it does not affect the rate of dumping.

Agreed

You said, "Get a buddy playing with a wing on CBL and chances are that they will overinflate, leaving a large airpocket and you with either a painful crotch (crotch strap) or what looks like a very large may west."

Disagree (with Terry's statement), I often inflate mine pretty much to the max on the surface as it helps me be seen easier (it's a red bladder), never felt like the crotch strap was too tight because the waist and shoulder straps do the work. The only reason I keep the crotch sstrap is to guard against the potential of a lost weight belt.

The only cause of that problem is exactly the same as the cause of that problem if diving conventional kit - incompetence. You put enough gas in the BC to start the lift. That gas is not proportional to the maximum size of the BC, it's enough additional buoyancy (measured in absolute terms) to get the diver moving.

Agree

Snip...

If someone can do a CBL properly, they can do it regardless of the BC being worn.

Sounds fair enough to me.
With regard to overinflation, can I just point out that in the OMS blurb they categorically say that the inflator and dump are designed to act slowly in order to provide more precise control.

I don't see why folk make so much of a big deal out of using a wing

Cheers, and play nicely you two ;)

[iainmsmith]

:=Yes, there are some ridiculously large wings out there. That doesn't mean anyone actually ought to use them.

Why not?

:-)

Because there's no need whatsoever to have all that material flapping around, asking to trap air...although IIRC, the "zodiac"-type wings are bungeed, which is a whole other reason not to use them, IMO.

AS it spends the majority of it's time deflated it doesn't look any bigger than a 50 or 70lb one (or whatever the numbers actually are) but should the necessity arise (ie total and utter FUBAR of biblical proportions) I've got enough lift for me and my buddy with twins and stages etc

Likewise...yet I can do it quite happily on a 45lb wing. (I might have problems doing so if my buddy had twin 300 bar 15s + 300 bar stage cylinders, but if they did, chances are they wouldn't be my buddy...)

With regard to overinflation, can I just point out that in the OMS blurb they categorically say that the inflator and dump are designed to act slowly in order to provide more precise control.

Hmm...looking at their website, the inflators look like a bog-standard unbranded inflator. I guess they are trying to make a distinction between them and "power-inflators"...trust the ad-men to make a "feature" out of the absence of a defect!

BTW, if they have "slow dumps" then anyone who gets a runaway inflator is in the brown smelly stuff...

Then again, if that's what they are claiming, maybe it's another reason to avoid their wings! :)

I don't see why folk make so much of a big deal out of using a wing

Quite.

Cheers, and play nicely you two ;)

And where's the fun in that? ;0)

Iain

[matt]

Because there's no need whatsoever to have all that material flapping around, asking to trap air...although IIRC, the "zodiac"-type wings are bungeed, which is a whole other reason not to use them, IMO.


I get the idea you really don't like big wings ;-)
Possibly an aside but...have you ever actually dived a big wing?

Likewise...yet I can do it quite happily on a 45lb wing. (I might have problems doing so if my buddy had twin 300 bar 15s + 300 bar stage cylinders, but if they did, chances are they wouldn't be my buddy...)

Two occassions spring to mind.

I did a CBL up a wall in a strong tide. The casualty was using a buddy commando and twin 10's. I had to fin like a thing that fins a lot to get through the down current.

I had a weight belt pop whilst crawling back to a shot line in another strong current. I managed to keep hold of the belt in the hand that was not attached to the wreck but my trim was lets say a bit different to what I was used to. This was at 36m and we were already into stops. The simplest way out seemed to be to go negative and allow my buddy to lift me on his OMS big boy. I kept hold of the belt and a convenient D'Ring. He made the lift and controlled the stops. I don't pay too much attention to the maths and certianly did not try working out whether the lift could have been done with a smaller wing just thankful that we managed it.

Hmm...looking at their website, the inflators look like a bog-standard unbranded inflator. I guess they are trying to make a distinction between them and "power-inflators"...trust the ad-men to make a "feature" out of the absence of a defect!

Talk to John Griffith about it I am sure he can give you the flow rates. I have used the OMS and other wings (big and small) extensively, the OMS appears to use a slow inflator. The dump feels pretty average.

Regards
Matt

[iainmsmith]

:=Because there's no need whatsoever to have all that material flapping around, asking to trap air...although IIRC, the "zodiac"-type wings are bungeed, which is a whole other reason not to use them, IMO.

I get the idea you really don't like big wings ;-)

:-) Maybe it's just that the only people I've ever actually seen using them are the last people I would get in the water with. (NB, to the best of my knowledge, I have never met Steve, who may well be different!)

Possibly an aside but...have you ever actually dived a big wing?

No, but equally, I've never base jumped or tried to play chicked with a train.

:=Likewise...yet I can do it quite happily on a 45lb wing. (I might have problems doing so if my buddy had twin 300 bar 15s + 300 bar stage cylinders, but if they did, chances are they wouldn't be my buddy...)

Two occassions spring to mind.

I did a CBL up a wall in a strong tide. The casualty was using a buddy commando and twin 10's. I had to fin like a thing that fins a lot to get through the down current.

You say that you had to use your buddy's Buddy _and_ your wing (+/- drysuits) _and_ fin?

I had a weight belt pop whilst crawling back to a shot line in another strong current. I managed to keep hold of the belt in the hand that was not attached to the wreck but my trim was lets say a bit different to what I was used to. This was at 36m and we were already into stops. The simplest way out seemed to be to go negative and allow my buddy to lift me on his OMS big boy. I kept hold of the belt and a convenient D'Ring. He made the lift and controlled the stops. I don't pay too much attention to the maths and certianly did not try working out whether the lift could have been done with a smaller wing just thankful that we managed it.

I'll bet! However, I know for a fact that I can swim my entire set up with full tanks from 20m without having put any gas in my wing or suit since emptying both at the surface. (NB - this was a deliberate test...and it took about a week for the suit squeeze bruises to heal!)

Iain

[Chris Tibble]

:=Because there's no need whatsoever to have all that material flapping around, asking to trap air...although IIRC, the "zodiac"-type wings are bungeed, which is a whole other reason not to use them, IMO.


I get the idea you really don't like big wings ;-)
Possibly an aside but...have you ever actually dived a big wing?

To jump in here - I started out with a big wing (Dive Rite Superwing) 75lbs of lift if memory serves and moved very quickly to a 55lb wing. I'm now (when funds allow) moving down to a 40lb wing. The reason? Having seen that a 40lb wing will comfortably lift a 12l twinset and a stage (all I'm likely to be diving for a while) and being informed that it will lift a twinset (can't recall if it was 15l or 12l) three 11l stages and two scooters, I fail to see why a larger wing is necessary!

Another good reason is that long hose deployment is easier from a 40lb wing than anything larger. It also keeps gas trapping and migration to an absolute minimum.

HTH,

Chris

[matt]

:=I get the idea you really don't like big wings ;-)

:-) Maybe it's just that the only people I've ever actually seen using them are the last people I would get in the water with. (NB, to the best of my knowledge, I have never met Steve, who may well be different!)

LOL. IIRC the two groups that dived the Britannic in the late 90s were using Custom Diver and OMS wings. I have been fortunate enough to be in the water with certain of them.

:=I did a CBL up a wall in a strong tide. The casualty was using a buddy commando and twin 10's. I had to fin like a thing that fins a lot to get through the down current.

You say that you had to use your buddy's Buddy _and_ your wing (+/- drysuits) _and_ fin?

Not quite. At the start my BCD was empty, my suit had some air in, his suit had some air in. The first 5 meters or so was fine, when we hit the down current I inflated his BCD until the overpressure blew. At that point I started finning. I tend to think that any attempt to stop, change grip and add gas elsewhere would have put us back on the bottom.

I provided the examples to show that there have been a couple of occassions when having more than the bare minimum lift was desireable (IMHO).

I'll bet! However, I know for a fact that I can swim my entire set up with full tanks from 20m without having put any gas in my wing or suit since emptying both at the surface. (NB - this was a deliberate test...and it took about a week for the suit squeeze bruises to heal!)

I have done something similar during training in nice slack water. I dive a touch heavy in the sea due to the ammount of time we spend in currents so I probably ought to try it in my sea kit.

The point I guess is that I don't think that large wings cause the instant death that some groups would have you believe. Having dived both large and small wings AFAIC it makes very little difference. Certainly I think any difference is smaller than that caused by differing sea states. IMVHO personal skills are far more important than the specifics of the kit. The kit has to be adequate for the job, but after that it is down to the diver to make it work.

Regards
Matt

[TerryH]

Iain.

You may have a small wing, but the vast majority of UK divers
use the popular brands of CD, Dive Rite, Zeagle (including Apex)
, OMS etc.

ALL of these manufacturers wings exceed the lift of the
equivilent conventional brands. In my prevuos post I even
listed the obviously increased lift.

If we look at some of the other manufactuers with wing type
designs (more jacket then backplate), Beauchat, Scubapro, ND,
Seaquest, Aqualung, Buddy etc, they all have larger capacities
and more lift then there conventional stablemates.
In fact the only time you get wings which have not got large
lift capacity is when they are designated travel wings and
along with dual bladder can be discounted as the "norm".

So it entirely accurate to surmize that the vast majority of
wings do indeed have more and in some cases a lot more lift
than a conventional BC in the same class.

"Your second statement has nothing to do with buoyancy (and is irrelevant to this discussion which was to do with your assertion that buddies will automatically overinflate.)"

Entirely relevant. The original post concerned the use of a
newly purchased wing. That means training + buddy familarity =
overinflation. Add to that the differing types of slow and fast
inflators + the physical size of the bladder.

And I suppose those same individuals dont do the nodding duck
routine when they first use a BC on the surface?
Bet the manufacturers warning that the wing, tips you forward,
is waste of time as well!

"If someone can do a CBL properly, they can do it regardless of
the BC being worn."

Round spherical objects!!!!!!!

Still, I can drive a car, so that means I can drive a 32 ton
artic as well, yes?

If someone can do a CBL properly then he can do it properly on
KNOWN equipment, configeration and circumstances. It is
entirely likely that he would NOT be able to be as proficient
if you change the parameters.

Change the BC, you go back to school. Complacency kills.

TerryH

[Vic]

&gt; You may have a small wing, but the vast majority of UK divers
&gt; use the popular brands of CD, Dive Rite, Zeagle (including
&gt; Apex), OMS etc.

For the poast 3 years, I have been using a 16Kg wing, as have a lrage number of my dive buddies.

Prior to that, I had a 22Kg wing. Not exactly vast compared to your "norms", now is it?

I also have a 20Kg wing, but I don't like that one much.

I think you misrepresent what an "average" wing size really is.

&gt; If someone can do a CBL properly then he can do it properly on
&gt; KNOWN equipment, configeration and circumstances. It is
&gt; entirely likely that he would NOT be able to be as proficient
&gt; if you change the parameters.
&gt;
&gt; Change the BC, you go back to school. Complacency kills.

This comment *really* worries me.

Vic.

[Steve Walker]

Another good reason is that long hose deployment is easier from a 40lb wing than anything larger.


Eh? I use the long hose (oo-er missus!) and can't see how the bladder comes into the equation.

On a related note, I only started using the long hose early this year, and have until recently been employing the wrap around neck 'sty-lee'. Prior to a training weekend I thought I'd brief a young SD/DL trainee that this would be my rig for trip and to ask if the trainees had been acquainted with primary-donation as well as the usual octo method. They hadn't, plus this young girl argued (in all seriousness I believe) that in an emergency she reckoned the recipient would pull downwards on the reg, thereby choking the donor, rather than pull away from the donor allowing the loop to flow over the donors head.
Of course, being 19 and having a whole years worth of diving experience under her belt, she must know what she's talking about ;)

Any long-term long-hose users actually used it in an emergency or have any other experience to expand on that idea?

Cheers
Steve

PS Iain, no we haven't met, but if you're one of the Shandy Brigade and are down near Swanage this weekend, keep an eye out for a card-carrying stroke with a red OMS Zodiac and inverted twin 10s ;)

[john kendall]

Any long-term long-hose users actually used it in an emergency or have any other experience to expand on that idea?

Not used it in a real emergency, however have used it on numerous training exercises, (Including inside a cave, following a line, with a mask covered in Gaffa Tape) and I've never come across that issue.

The only way to choke the donor is for the recepient to grab hold of them, and then pull the hose around their head the wrong way. Otherwise the donor just rotates a bit.

This is particularly the case if you are not both Kneeling on the bottom while trying it, but actually swimming around.
HTH
John

[Vic]

&gt; On a related note, I only started using the long hose early
&gt; this year, and have until recently been employing the wrap
&gt; around neck 'sty-lee'.

On the (very!) rare occasions I dive a long hose, I wrap it. You might like to check your wrapping style, given that...

&gt; this young girl argued (in all seriousness I believe) that in
&gt; an emergency she reckoned the recipient would pull downwards
&gt; on the reg, thereby choking the donor

I really can't see how pulling down on the reg could choke the donor. Do you have the hose across your throat? If not, tightening the hose around the rest of the neck could eventually deprive the brain of blood, but you've got plenty of time to get free of that one...

&gt; Any long-term long-hose users actually used it in an
&gt; emergency or have any other experience to expand on that idea?

Never in a real emergency, but I've had to donate in what at first appeared to be an emergency (it was actually a drill - but no-one had told me that at the time). Everything ran like clockwork...

Vic.

[john kendall]

"If someone can do a CBL properly, they can do it regardless of
the BC being worn."

Round spherical objects!!!!!!!

Still, I can drive a car, so that means I can drive a 32 ton
artic as well, yes?

No, they have very different controls. However if you can drive a car properly, then you should be able to quite happily drive a 7.5ton truck.

If someone can do a CBL properly then he can do it properly on
KNOWN equipment, configeration and circumstances. It is
entirely likely that he would NOT be able to be as proficient
if you change the parameters.

The controls are the same on a BC and a wing (Unless it's got an Auto-Air)

To do a CBL you add a bit of gas, and see if you move, if not, you add a bit more, repeat until you are going up (You will also probably be fining up as well)

Then you dump small amounts of gas as you ascend.

Doesn't make any difference if you've got a 100lb OMS wing, or 55lb Halcyon, or a standard BC.

Change the BC, you go back to school.

Rubbish, if you've not learnt a flexible approach, then you may have to. But that is an issue of the training, not the kit.

Complacency kills.

Agree with this.

John

[TerryH]

I think you misrepresent what an "average" wing size really is.

Well I can only go on the wings that I have encountered.

The club has CD, OMS, Dive rite, Zeagle, Beuchat, Scubapro,
Buddy and Oceanic wings. With the exception of the Beuchat,
they all have more lift than the club's Commandos & Poseidons.

I'd say that was a pretty good spread of manufacturers for a
comparison.

&gt; Change the BC, you go back to school. Complacency kills.

This comment *really* worries me.

Why? You saying that you dont "check out" new kit?

I make a point of going back to school every year. It might be
an Instructor course or a gas course. Still makes a me a green
student though.

Rgds
TerryH

[Vic]

&gt; I'd say that was a pretty good spread of manufacturers for a
&gt; comparison.

Never mind the spread of manufacturers, it's not exactly a typical spectrum of concsumers, is it?

Once again, your atypical situation does not mirror the rest of the multiverse.

&gt; Why? You saying that you dont "check out" new kit?

I check out new kit, but that doesn't mean "back to school" just because I'm presented with a new BCD. There are only really two types of inflator unit still in use, and anyone ought to be able to sort out how to control them even if they've never seen one before.

It's not exactly difficult...

Vic.

[TerryH]

No, they have very different controls. However if you can drive a car properly, then you should be able to quite happily drive a 7.5ton truck.


Ahh, but its a 32ton artic, not a 7.5ton flatbed!


The controls are the same on a BC and a wing (Unless it's got an Auto-Air)


Doesn't make any difference if you've got a 100lb OMS wing, or 55lb Halcyon, or a standard BC.

Let me see.

You mentioned auto air.
So how about position of shoulder straps. Lower down on wing or
maybe only on one side or not at all. AP front push or side.

Strap waistband, plastic clip shut, stainless or velcro
cummerband. Does it include a pouch? Where is the crutch strap
fitted. Can you get to it?
Integrated weights? Pull wire or velcro pouch? Partial or full
dump?
D-ring positioning. Diffrent or same. Octo, torch etc.etc.
Exactly the same position or just lower or higher for you to
forget it's a new jacket.
Dumps. What if your old one was a commando (no shoulder). Right
shoulder dump missing? Yes or No? Rear kidney dump left or right?
Single or twin single cylinder bands or backplate. Twin
fitting cam bands or bolted backplate?
Ohh and of course the Halycon/OMS. Would that be the one with
an extra bladder and of course another inflator? Yes/No.

CBL isnt just getting to the surface. CBL is always followed by
make buoyant and what the hell do we do now!

Maybe knowing/not knowing just one of those "differences" would
be enough to help/hinder a rescue.

I think I'll just carry on trying out new kit as and when, ok.


TerryH

[john kendall]

:=
:=No, they have very different controls. However if you can drive a car properly, then you should be able to quite happily drive a 7.5ton truck.
:=

Ahh, but its a 32ton artic, not a 7.5ton flatbed!

Yes, And Artics have very different controls to cars. You don't have Air-lines on cars to begin with.

:=
:=The controls are the same on a BC and a wing (Unless it's got an Auto-Air)
:=

:=Doesn't make any difference if you've got a 100lb OMS wing, or 55lb Halcyon, or a standard BC.

Let me see.

You mentioned auto air.
So how about position of shoulder straps. Lower down on wing or
maybe only on one side or not at all. AP front push or side.

Makes no difference to CBL.

Strap waistband, plastic clip shut, stainless or velcro
cummerband. Does it include a pouch? Where is the crutch strap
fitted. Can you get to it?

Makes no difference to CBL

Integrated weights? Pull wire or velcro pouch? Partial or full
dump?

Makes no difference to CBL

D-ring positioning. Diffrent or same. Octo, torch etc.etc.
Exactly the same position or just lower or higher for you to
forget it's a new jacket.

Makes no difference to CBL

Dumps. What if your old one was a commando (no shoulder). Right
shoulder dump missing? Yes or No? Rear kidney dump left or right?

Makes no difference to CBL

Single or twin single cylinder bands or backplate. Twin
fitting cam bands or bolted backplate?

Makes no difference to CBL

Ohh and of course the Halycon/OMS. Would that be the one with an extra bladder and of course another inflator? Yes/No.

Ok, this one might make a difference. (Oh, and Halcyon don't make dual bladder wings)


CBL isnt just getting to the surface. CBL is always followed by
make buoyant and what the hell do we do now!

Rubbish, CBL is exactly that "Controlled Bouyant LIFT"

On the surface, yes there are other things to think about, but they make no difference to the CBL.

I think I'll just carry on trying out new kit as and when, ok.

That's fine, when I dive new kit, I do a few gentle dives with it to try it out. However I don't insist (or even suggest) a few easy dives with every bit of kit one of my Buddies might use.

All of the above are covered in the buddy check.

John

[TerryH]

Never mind the spread of manufacturers, it's not exactly a typical spectrum of concsumers, is it?

Once again, your atypical situation does not mirror the rest of the multiverse.


Suppose it depends if it was backed up with he manufacturers
figures and surprise, surprise. They are have more lift.

Still I dont know about your "multiverse" but if it doesnt
include CD, OMS, Dive Rite, Zeagle/Apex you must be diving
Haslar lake or another planet.


I check out new kit, but that doesn't mean "back to school" just because I'm presented with a new BCD. There are only really two types of inflator unit still in use, and anyone ought to be able to sort out how to control them even if they've never seen one before.


Sorry Vic. I'm not too proud to call checking out new kit,
"Back to school". After all isnt that what schools are for,
learning?

TerryH

[Vic]

&gt; Suppose it depends if it was backed up with he manufacturers
&gt; figures and surprise, surprise. They are have more lift.

It was backed up by some very dubious figures indeed. You picked typical values for one set and maximum values for the other. You completely failed to mention the cases where the data does not back up your assertion (e.g. the wings I've mentioned). In short, if your argument were backed up by maufacturers' data, you might have a point, but since it isn't, you don't.

&gt; Sorry Vic. I'm not too proud to call checking out new kit,
&gt; "Back to school".

It's nothing to do with pride and everything to do with bearing some relationship to what you're talking about. If I see a new inflator that I've never seen before, I need to know which button is "in", which button is "out", and if there's any other buttons I need to ignore. That's not "back to school", that's about 5 seconds in a buddy check.

&gt; After all isnt that what schools are for, learning?

One would hope so, but if you have to return to school for each and every BCD, then it appears that such schools are missing their target...

Vic.

[TerryH]

Makes no difference to CBL

Depends really if the object of the exercise is just to get
him to the surface or maybe actually keep him there!


That's fine, when I dive new kit, I do a few gentle dives with it to try it out. However I don't insist (or even suggest) a few easy dives with every bit of kit one of my Buddies might use.

Thats your choice. IMO new kit = checkout.

All of the above are covered in the buddy check.

And a buddy check is a good substitute for actualy practising
the whole thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah right.

TerryH

[TerryH]

It was backed up by some very dubious figures indeed. You picked typical values for one set and maximum values for the other. You completely failed to mention the cases where the data does not back up your assertion (e.g. the wings I've mentioned). In short, if your argument were backed up by maufacturers' data, you might have a point, but since it isn't, you don't.


Well Vic, the figures were the maximum values for the
known makes, while your post reffered to wings in kgs and not
any makes. Bit difficult to check out the data!

Of course we could use an 8kg Halycon batwing as an example of
how you can get small wings, but its not exactly representative
is it?

Pointless arguing about the term "back to school". In my book
if you dont know about something (and that includes
familarising youself with new kit), you are back in school
until you do know.

TerryH

[PeteM]

:=
:=Makes no difference to CBL

Depends really if the object of the exercise is just to get
him to the surface or maybe actually keep him there!

So were's the difficulty there?

When you get to the surface, the button that you pressed to get him there; press it again

[TerryH]

So were's the difficulty there?

When you get to the surface, the button that you pressed to get him there; press it again

Would that be face up or face down then?

TerryH

[Vic]

&gt; Well Vic, the figures were the maximum values for the
&gt; known makes

Irrelevant.

because a manufacturer makes items with a range that goes as far as "large", that doesn't mean that is in any way representative of "normal".

Fiat, for example make larger vehicles than do Mercedes. Does that make a Fiat bigger than a Mercedes?

&gt; while your post reffered to wings in kgs and not
&gt; any makes. Bit difficult to check out the data!

But not very difficult to find wings that do match the data. If you'd bothered to look, of course...

&gt; Of course we could use an 8kg Halycon batwing as an example of
&gt; how you can get small wings

So why don't you? That (if it exists, I don't know) would exactly disprove your argument.

&gt; but its not exactly representative is it?

How do you know? Have you counted?

&gt; In my book if you dont know about something (and that includes
&gt; familarising youself with new kit), you are back in school
&gt; until you do know.

Twaddle. If you have to spend any time at all working out how to use an inflator then you shouldn't be on the boat. They aren't rocket science.

Vic.

[Steve Walker]

&gt; On a related note, I only started using the long hose early
&gt; this year, and have until recently been employing the wrap
&gt; around neck 'sty-lee'.

On the (very!) rare occasions I dive a long hose, I wrap it. You might like to check your wrapping style, given that...


Boom boom boom, shake da room ....

Yep, still rapping like a muddaF... ;)

I don't coil it around my neck anymore, the excess hose slides into the bungees on my OMS Zodiac

Chee-az
steve

[PeteM]

:=So were's the difficulty there?
:=
:=When you get to the surface, the button that you pressed to get him there; press it again

Would that be face up or face down then?

You've been reading too many anti wing diatribes :-)

[TerryH]

You've been reading too many anti wing diatribes :-)

Been using and teaching on a wing for about 5 years now, so
I dont think I can be anti-wing :-}

TerryH

[Vic]

&gt; I don't coil it around my neck anymore, the excess hose
&gt; slides into the bungees on my OMS Zodiac

What, behind your head?

I had to try to deploy one of those once (as a casualty) - it don't come out too easy if you approach from the left... ;-(

Vic.

[Mind you, the sight of me with a foot on this bloke's head must have been hilarious...]

[Chris Tibble]

:=Another good reason is that long hose deployment is easier from a 40lb wing than anything larger.


Eh? I use the long hose (oo-er missus!) and can't see how the bladder comes into the equation.


I found on the Dive Rite wing that the wing would wrap around the cylinders and trap the hose. It would also get caught underneath the bottom of the wing when I tried to release the hose stowed alongside the cylinder. It didn't do it all the time, just often enough that I wasn't comfortable using the wing. So I changed it. With a 40lb wing the amount of wing sticking out the side of the cylinders is so small, there is no possibility of hose trapping. It also makes restowing a cinch as well.

Chris

[Matthew Bell]

Remember that your wing is designed to lift twins etc. So it
has shedloads of lift compared to the conventional BC.

A typical BC will have about 17-19kg of lift. A wing can be up
in the 45-50Kg range.

Get a buddy playing with a wing on CBL and chances are that
they will overinflate, leaving a large airpocket and you with
either a painful crotch (crotch strap) or what looks like a
very large may west.

Any air pockets are naturally larger and more likely to cause
problems because the whole point of the design is to lift more
weight.

Next time you are in the pool why not lend your kit to a
similarly sized mate and try CBL on him yourself. Gauge the
ammount of air required and play with the buoyancy. You will
find that no where near as much air is needed as your old BC.

Armed with this info you might have a better chance of
informing your buddies when they try it out on you.

IMO there is nothing wrong with the wing, just needs a less
agggresive approach on the lift.

Try it.

HTH
TerryH








Thanks for the comments.

Part of the problem I have is that in my club I have 'Wing No' 2', the first was bought a week before mine. Picking peoples brains within the club is therefore difficult.

Trying out a wing before purchase didn't through up any problems. It was acting as the victim in a CBL where everything went pearshaped and I came close to entering a Low Earth Orbit. The most important thing for a CBL is Control and this means inflating and dumping air as required by the rescuer.

Looking at the comments from Terry and others, I put the wing in the Pool again to re-asses the problem. The bottles were repositioned slightly higher on the wing this time, as there was a suspicion that the bottoms of the first stages were pressing into the wing. The manifold had originally been set up so that I could just reach both Isolation and the Crossfeed valve before use. The HP port for the contents gauge was also moved as I felt that the hose interfered with the shape of the wing as well.

Several CBLs were carried out as a rescuer and a victim, and it was interesting to observe how the air moved about within the bladder while somebody else used it. I think that I may still need to move the LP port that the AAS uses to give a better hose run without interference to the wing.

In conclusion: Don't let any kit such as hoses, etc effects the shape of the wing, keep it clean. Also make sure that your buddy doesn't 'push' you up during a CBL as this places air in the wing on the opposite side to the dump.

Thanks Tim for your assistance in the Pool.

Matt Bell

[iainmsmith]

Any long-term long-hose users actually used it in an emergency or have any other experience to expand on that idea?

Yep - it's rubbish. I did a dive a couple of years back, I think with John, where he actively tried to throttle me by coming at me from every possible angle. No problem.

The only time an OOA diver is going to be pulling down on the reg is if they are coming at you from below and behind...at which point, you're likely to have kicked them anyway. Also, you will dip your head _and_ the hose will exert a turning force on you. Not an issue.

If you/she doesn't believe this, try it.

Iain

[iainmsmith]

:=
:=You've been reading too many anti wing diatribes :-)

Been using and teaching on a wing for about 5 years now, so
I dont think I can be anti-wing :-}

In which case why haven't you got your set up sorted out so that it doesn't put you on your face? Working that one out took me a whole, what, two or three dives. I think I'm starting to understand this obsession of yours with going back to school...

Iain

[TerryH]

In which case why haven't you got your set up sorted out so that it doesn't put you on your face? Working that one out took me a whole, what, two or three dives. I think I'm starting to understand this obsession of yours with going back to school...

Iain

If you could be bothered to read before answering, this thread
concerned the use of a newly aquired wing, which has been
causing a few problems. The subsequent replies have always
been directed to problems encountered when first using a wing.

Manufacturers go so far as to add warning notices on the wing
itself to point out this very problem. You yourself took three
to four dives to "work it out". So for those dives you were
learning and were "back in school".

My "obsession" as you call it stems from some very dubious
practices I witnessed before I was an Instructor, where I
believe students lives were put at risk. It was luck, chance
call it what you like, that there wasnt another entry into the
incident reports.

I make absolutly no apology for strongly recommending/voicing
my opinion that ALL of us need to go back to school now and
again. I ended that post with complacency kills. You can add
arrogance kills to that as well.

TerryH

[Ian Wigg]

:=Remember that your wing is designed to lift twins etc. So it
:=has shedloads of lift compared to the conventional BC.
:=
:=A typical BC will have about 17-19kg of lift. A wing can be up
:=in the 45-50Kg range.
:=
:=Get a buddy playing with a wing on CBL and chances are that
:=they will overinflate, leaving a large airpocket and you with
:=either a painful crotch (crotch strap) or what looks like a
:=very large may west.
:=
:=Any air pockets are naturally larger and more likely to cause
:=problems because the whole point of the design is to lift more
:=weight.
:=
:=Next time you are in the pool why not lend your kit to a
:=similarly sized mate and try CBL on him yourself. Gauge the
:=ammount of air required and play with the buoyancy. You will
:=find that no where near as much air is needed as your old BC.
:=
:=Armed with this info you might have a better chance of
:=informing your buddies when they try it out on you.
:=
:=IMO there is nothing wrong with the wing, just needs a less
:=agggresive approach on the lift.
:=
:=Try it.
:=
:=HTH
:=TerryH
:=
:=
:=
:=
:=
:=
:=
:=
Thanks for the comments.

Part of the problem I have is that in my club I have 'Wing No' 2', the first was bought a week before mine. Picking peoples brains within the club is therefore difficult.

Trying out a wing before purchase didn't through up any problems. It was acting as the victim in a CBL where everything went pearshaped and I came close to entering a Low Earth Orbit. The most important thing for a CBL is Control and this means inflating and dumping air as required by the rescuer.

Looking at the comments from Terry and others, I put the wing in the Pool again to re-asses the problem. The bottles were repositioned slightly higher on the wing this time, as there was a suspicion that the bottoms of the first stages were pressing into the wing. The manifold had originally been set up so that I could just reach both Isolation and the Crossfeed valve before use. The HP port for the contents gauge was also moved as I felt that the hose interfered with the shape of the wing as well.

Several CBLs were carried out as a rescuer and a victim, and it was interesting to observe how the air moved about within the bladder while somebody else used it. I think that I may still need to move the LP port that the AAS uses to give a better hose run without interference to the wing.

In conclusion: Don't let any kit such as hoses, etc effects the shape of the wing, keep it clean. Also make sure that your buddy doesn't 'push' you up during a CBL as this places air in the wing on the opposite side to the dump.

Thanks Tim for your assistance in the Pool.

Matt Bell


Hi

Having followed this thread I'd like to add my bit if I may. I was acting as victim in the pool last night for one of the guys who was practicing his cbl for his sports diver. I was using my Northern Diver 50lb single with a single 12L dumpy (a fair excess of available bouyancy!) He had absolutely no trouble bringing me up slowly and controlled even in 2m of water and he's never tried it with a wing before. Only slight problem we encountered was at the surface with the wing fully inflated where, because it's a bit like a lilo, it rolled around a touch.