A question of legality...

[Thumper Rider]

This will doubtless horrify some... but I, like many divers ride a motorbike and occaisionally I use it to shift dive gear about. Well today I had to shift a cylinder and my better half had the car so I strapped it securely to the rack and went happily on my way.
A passing diver told me however that he'd done the same thing and a policeman had told him it was illegal.
Now I am aware of the risks of carrying compressed air in this fashion and yes it is to be avoided, but specifically illegal? (bearing in mind I have been told absolute rubbish by over zealous young policemen before! No offence to the majority of good ones!)
Anyone have a definitive answer? Preferrably with references for me to look up?!
I look forwards to your replies as it is very handy to be able to shift these things now and again!!
Thanks, G

[Nigel Hewitt]

A passing diver told me however that he'd done the same thing and a policeman had told him it was illegal.

I hope not...

nigelH

[Steve Walker]

This will doubtless horrify some... but I, like many divers ride a motorbike and occaisionally I use it to shift dive gear about. Well today I had to shift a cylinder and my better half had the car so I strapped it securely to the rack and went happily on my way.
A passing diver told me however that he'd done the same thing and a policeman had told him it was illegal.
Now I am aware of the risks of carrying compressed air in this fashion and yes it is to be avoided, but specifically illegal? (bearing in mind I have been told absolute rubbish by over zealous young policemen before! No offence to the majority of good ones!)
Anyone have a definitive answer? Preferrably with references for me to look up?!
I look forwards to your replies as it is very handy to be able to shift these things now and again!!
Thanks, G


As it happens, one of my best mates is a cop (not so young or zealous I hasten to add) so I'll ask him next time I see him, but to be practical, if it was coverd up, say inside a rucksack, who's gonna see it...
Imagine though if you took a spill and the pillar valve broke!!!
eek!

[TerryH]

Imagine though if you took a spill and the pillar valve broke!!!
eek!

Who saw hollywood science last night?

They did the bit from where Keanu Reeves bashes off the pillar
valve. In their garden version and using the back of an axe,
the valve came off incredably easy. It really wouldnt take much
to knock it off.

TerryH

[Thumper Rider]

Glad it's not just me :) Liked the photo!!
Personally I don't carry them on my back, too much chance of hurting me personally!! I favour strapping them across the rack. As for the pillar valve breaking, I'd expect it to punch the whole bike over onto the other side and make a truly terrifying noise... but hopefully not much more!
Mine tend to be underneath a huge holdall so pretty well covered, and I'd be surprised if the law of the land specifically banned us from doing stupid things like this, but it's really got me curious now....
Thanks for the replies so far guys :)
G

As it happens, one of my best mates is a cop (not so young or zealous I hasten to add) so I'll ask him next time I see him, but to be practical, if it was coverd up, say inside a rucksack, who's gonna see it...
Imagine though if you took a spill and the pillar valve broke!!!
eek!

[Thumper Rider]

In fairness though it was a pretty accurate blow at just the right angle and with a good deal of force behind it. Possible though, also we have to bear in mind that although the initial force could be fairly large a decent sized exit hole like that of a broken pillar valve should allow the air to vent *very* quickly and of course as we all know from our gas laws(!) air just compressed and not liquified the pressure will drop very quickly to noisy but insignificant levels. Thinking about it I'm not convinced just how dramatic it would be...
Right, who's going to break a pillar valve and see how far they can get a 12L 232Bar cylinder to travel?! (all in the name of science officer) ;-)
G

Who saw hollywood science last night?

They did the bit from where Keanu Reeves bashes off the pillar
valve. In their garden version and using the back of an axe,
the valve came off incredably easy. It really wouldnt take much
to knock it off.

TerryH

[Nigel Hewitt]

Personally I don't carry them on my back, too much chance of hurting me personally!!

Wander into a police station and ask. I did that about carrying warning diamonds and the desk officer didn't know and took my email address. I carry his reply saying I 'should but don't have to' incase I ever get stopped without one. Coppers hate contradicting coppers as it questions the important idea that they are all infalible.

The 10/300s used to sit nicely on the rear seat hump of the old Fireblade. **sigh** It's trashed now. The usual right turning *Sorry Mate. Didn't see ya*.

nigelH

[Andy Wade]

In fairness though it was a pretty accurate blow at just the right angle and with a good deal of force behind it. Possible though, also we have to bear in mind that although the initial force could be fairly large a decent sized exit hole like that of a broken pillar valve should allow the air to vent *very* quickly and of course as we all know from our gas laws(!) air just compressed and not liquified the pressure will drop very quickly to noisy but insignificant levels. Thinking about it I'm not convinced just how dramatic it would be...
Right, who's going to break a pillar valve and see how far they can get a 12L 232Bar cylinder to travel?! (all in the name of science officer) ;-)

When I were a lad and joined the RAF to learn to be an aircraft fitter, they showed us a wall in the training hangar, there was a hole in it, caused by an acetylene cylinder which fell off a scaffold, and knocked off the pillar valve. It quickly became a torpedo and had passed straight out - through the concrete wall and about 50 yards into the adjoining field.
They'd left the hole caused, as a reminder to everyone just how potentially dangerous pressure cylinders can be.
The problem with them is that they look benign right up until to the point that they explode.
Carrying them on a motorbike? Well I wouldn't, but I guess if needs must, then you take your chances with it....
I'd agree about covering them with a bag though, just to make it look a little less crazy.

[Thumper Rider]

Ah yes Oxy Acetylene, now there's a scary pair of cylinders, in fact acetylene on its own is bad enough... I don't like carrying these in trucks far less on motorbikes!
I hear what you're saying but I still think a cylinder of liquified gas would carry far more force than non-liquified, one of the reasons you are obliged by law to have collars protecting the valves on flamable and liquified (I believe, don't shoot me down if I'm misinformed!) gases but not on inert and non-liquified gas cylinders is because of the relative danger presented by a broken pillar valve. (although many industrial applications have them fitted as a matter of course to all bottles)
Oh and I'd bet you a round of beers the acetylene bottle ignited before going through the wall, I've seen the after effects of one of those too! (and worse than that the after effects of one "brewing up" after being used by an idiot with no flashback arrestors...)
You're quite right it would be bloody dangerous, I've just got a suspicion that we could be exaggerating the risk somewhat by comparing unlike gases. (But not to the extent of the chap who told me that a steel faber cylinder in new condition could "explode if the pillar valve was knocked off"...hmmm)
Thanks for the input though, it's good to get lots of opinions :) All the best, G

When I were a lad and joined the RAF to learn to be an aircraft fitter, they showed us a wall in the training hangar, there was a hole in it, caused by an acetylene cylinder which fell off a scaffold, and knocked off the pillar valve. It quickly became a torpedo and had passed straight out - through the concrete wall and about 50 yards into the adjoining field.
They'd left the hole caused, as a reminder to everyone just how potentially dangerous pressure cylinders can be.
The problem with them is that they look benign right up until to the point that they explode.
Carrying them on a motorbike? Well I wouldn't, but I guess if needs must, then you take your chances with it....
I'd agree about covering them with a bag though, just to make it look a little less crazy.

[Thumper Rider]

Top suggestion Nigel, thanks :) Hope it was just the Blade and you walked (hobbled?) away ok!? I'm trying to give up sportsbikes while I've still got a clean licence! Nice MZ Mastiff now, *BIG* laughs round town & twisty roads :) :) :)
G

Wander into a police station and ask. I did that about carrying warning diamonds and the desk officer didn't know and took my email address. I carry his reply saying I 'should but don't have to' incase I ever get stopped without one. Coppers hate contradicting coppers as it questions the important idea that they are all infalible.

The 10/300s used to sit nicely on the rear seat hump of the old Fireblade. **sigh** It's trashed now. The usual right turning *Sorry Mate. Didn't see ya*.

nigelH

[Digger]

I used to enjoy a ride to the harbour after missing the ride in the landie with a 10 on my back. A BCD is perfectly designed to hold it nice and secure. Mind you, the way the Cypriots drive.... In fact, the way I ride....

Once got stopped on my way down by the harbourmaster (or at least someone with some authority down there) who asked where I was going. Amusingly, I was on my way to the harbour to do some cleaning, paid for by who? Oh yes. That would be the harbourmaster. I liked that. I don't think he liked it when I told him. And smiled. A lot.

[edward haynes]

Its not whats in the cylinder that makes it bomb like, its the pressure. Having see what a commercial tyre can do (at only 140psi) I don't want to be around when a fully charged air cylinder goes off.

Edward

[Nigel Hewitt]

Its not whats in the cylinder that makes it bomb like, its the pressure. Having see what a commercial tyre can do (at only 140psi) I don't want to be around when a fully charged air cylinder goes off.

Acetylene, since that was what was described as going through a wall, is very low pressure - say 20bar. It's dissolved in acetone. I suspect the story was being improved for the kids. Acetylene's problem is that if it gets hot the whole chemistry just rearranges itself and releases a lot of energy. An acetylene cylinder IS a bomb.

Scuba tanks are mere hand grenades. I did the maths once...

nigelH

[Adrian Kelland]

This is a link to a site, found via another forum.

An interesting read.

Adrian

[TerryH]

Doesnt deal with the legality, but if the weak point is the
valve, then why not fix a cylinder guard and padding around the
neck.
At least If it does fall, there is something else to absorb the
force.

TerryH

[derek perry]

OK

I'm sure you were looking for one of us to put our heads above the parapet and so I'll volunteer.

I have never heard of or know of any legislation that states you cannot wear or carry a dive cylinder on a motor bike.
HOWEVER
I have also never heard or seen any legislation saying you can't carry an elephant on a motor bike but that would be dangerous and illegal because you would fall foul of section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, which states;

'so as to cause, or to be likely to cause, danger by the condition of the vehicle or its parts or accessories, the number of passengers carried by it, or the weight, distribution, packing or adjustment of its load'

This same section is what a police officer would summons you under if in their opinion the carrying of the cylinders were dangerous. It would basically be up to a magistrate to make a decision and that would form a Stated Case in Law for all future cases to draw inference on.
So you now need to be summonsed by an eager copper to get a magistrate to answer your question.
It would all be based on the stability of the load and the likelihood of it causing danger.

Hope this helps

Derek
'A Copper'

[Thumper Rider]

Thank you Derek, I'm glad you're prepared to break cover! The cylinder is normally ratchet strapped to a solidly mounted rack so the load is stable and secure, and I try to carry it this way as little as possible, I guess it'd be down to how dangerous a Policeman/court considered it... ah well if life was easy it'd be dull ;-) Thanks again for the input,
G
ps, it's ok... I don't own an elephant! ;-)

OK

I'm sure you were looking for one of us to put our heads above the parapet and so I'll volunteer.

I have never heard of or know of any legislation that states you cannot wear or carry a dive cylinder on a motor bike.
HOWEVER
I have also never heard or seen any legislation saying you can't carry an elephant on a motor bike but that would be dangerous and illegal because you would fall foul of section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, which states;

'so as to cause, or to be likely to cause, danger by the condition of the vehicle or its parts or accessories, the number of passengers carried by it, or the weight, distribution, packing or adjustment of its load'

This same section is what a police officer would summons you under if in their opinion the carrying of the cylinders were dangerous. It would basically be up to a magistrate to make a decision and that would form a Stated Case in Law for all future cases to draw inference on.
So you now need to be summonsed by an eager copper to get a magistrate to answer your question.
It would all be based on the stability of the load and the likelihood of it causing danger.

Hope this helps

Derek
'A Copper'