View Full Version : BSAC Instructors Charging for Teaching
steve swift
22-04-2003, 23:38
In a round about way, someone has asked my opinion on this. They are being charged for their instruction by an instructor in the club to which they belong. They are not sure if this is a club-wide policy, sanctioned by the DO or not, but felt it was a bit much to pay their club joining and membership fees, and then have to pay for the instruction as well.
Is there anything in the rules that allows/ disallows payment to individual instructors within a club environment. I must admit, I always thought the whole ethos of the BSAC was that you were taught to dive by the club at no cost (for the instruction), and then later you would do the same for the next generation of wannabe divers.
This is a friend of a friend etc and I don't know the exact details, so this is more a question of the principles involved, but I'd be grateful for any thoughts.
Steve
iainmsmith
23-04-2003, 00:31
In a round about way, someone has asked my opinion on this. They are being charged for their instruction by an instructor in the club to which they belong. They are not sure if this is a club-wide policy, sanctioned by the DO or not, but felt it was a bit much to pay their club joining and membership fees, and then have to pay for the instruction as well.
Is there anything in the rules that allows/ disallows payment to individual instructors within a club environment. I must admit, I always thought the whole ethos of the BSAC was that you were taught to dive by the club at no cost (for the instruction), and then later you would do the same for the next generation of wannabe divers.
AIUI, (and IANAL), the key is that the instructor may not make a profit from teaching, unless they are operating under the HSE as a professional instructor. If there is a club "joining fee" I would expect that to cover the additional costs of learning to dive (like materials, pool time, classroom time).
It is not, however, necessarily wrong for an instructor's expenses to be covered (we have to pay to get into Gildy as well). In my Branch, the Branch itself will cover instructors' entry fees for inland sites for training, although instructors generally fund their own sea diving, even when teaching.
Iain
Mike Halligan
23-04-2003, 09:20
Steve,
I'm sure there's nothing in BSAC Rules, but that is not to say the Branch hasn't a rule. Straight re-imbursement of direct expenses is said not to class club Instructors "at work", but satisfy yourself that HSE's ACOP does not apply. (Certainly, for so long as the Instructor is a volunteer, then working hours regulations do not apply.)
What began decades ago as altruism can now cost individual Instructors a small fortune (up to ?30 pw), in addition to the cost of their recreational diving and the sunk cost of learning their diving and instructional skills. Therefore, I am very content to accept re-imbursement of pool fees, air and entry to inland sites that I wouldn't otherwise visit - together with the occasional lift. I don't wish to be paid for my time and knowledge, or my presumed skill and experience. Given that the costs I incur don't necessarily apply to an individual trainee, it seems unfair to try apportionment. So, at the invitation of the Committee, I claim on the Branch.
We also felt that a "Training Fee" levied on joining was uncomfortably close to charging for instruction - particularly should it ever translate into paying ITS costs. Hence, we charge new members to take up their common share of the assets, but don't charge an identifiable levy for skills transfer. All members contribute to the direct cost incurred by Instructors maintaining and improving the skills base of the Branch. Such was our Committee's deliberate choice.
Hope this helps,
Mike
Steve Walker
23-04-2003, 11:56
In a round about way, someone has asked my opinion on this. They are being charged for their instruction by an instructor in the club to which they belong. They are not sure if this is a club-wide policy, sanctioned by the DO or not, but felt it was a bit much to pay their club joining and membership fees, and then have to pay for the instruction as well.
Is there anything in the rules that allows/ disallows payment to individual instructors within a club environment. I must admit, I always thought the whole ethos of the BSAC was that you were taught to dive by the club at no cost (for the instruction), and then later you would do the same for the next generation of wannabe divers.
This is a friend of a friend etc and I don't know the exact details, so this is more a question of the principles involved, but I'd be grateful for any thoughts.
Steve
Could you perhaps get your friend-of-a-friend to post here with fuller details? IME this is not common, but it depends on exactly what this person sees as "payment" .
For example I've seen complaints that free air-fills for instructors constitutes subsidised diving, even though the instructors were paying their own travel and accomodation costs for the whole weekend.
Regards
Steve
>In a round about way, someone has asked my opinion on this. They are being charged for their instruction by an instructor in the club to which they belong. They are not sure if this is a club-wide policy, sanctioned by the DO or not
So ask the DO.
>, but felt it was a bit much to pay their club joining and membership fees, and then have to pay for the instruction as well.
How much are the club fees? What benefits does the club provide? What help is your friend giving the club? How much is the instructor asking?
What I am trying to say is that the equation with a club is not simply that you pay your money and take a service like a shop. Your subs are your share of the clubs running costs; the costs incurred to provide members with whatever benefits the club is offering. The cost of branch subs is significantly influenced by volunteer input, something often overlooked by the members themselves.
Some clubs subsidise instructors, others do not. In the latter case it is perfectly justifiable for an instructor to ask for reimbursement of expenses. The costs of instructing in a club have spiralled upwards in the last 10 years. Boat fees are up, entrance fees are up, qualifying fees are up. It may benefit your friend to sit down and work out how much it costs in, qualification, air, petrol, entrance fees, aborted dives, telephone calls and kit maintenance to qualify a Club Diver.
>Is there anything in the rules that allows/ disallows payment to individual instructors within a club environment.
There is nothing in BSAC rules and neither should there be. A Club could specify such a clause in their constitution and byelaws if the membership chose to. At the other extreme it is possible for a club to choose to retain a professional instructor who operates in accordance with HSE and actually makes his living from teaching diving to branch members, like a golf club.
> I must admit, I always thought the whole ethos of the BSAC was that you were taught to dive by the club at no cost (for the instruction), and then later you would do the same for the next generation of wannabe divers.
Now if everyone followed that ethos instructors probably would be less inclined to pass on expenses. The current situation is that 2/3s of divers leave the sport in under three years. Less than 10% of divers ever qualify as instructors. A significant number stop instructing within 2 years of qualifying. Unfortunately far too many people see a club as a cheap way to qualify and never put anything back.
This is a friend of a friend etc and I don't know the exact details, so this is more a question of the principles involved, but I'd be grateful for any thoughts.
The principles of a club are that you put subs, time and goodwill into a common pool and take the benefits that provides. If your expecting to get a return on your money then you will be dissapointed as the greatest benefits are realised from the time and goodwill of the membership, there is relatively little real money involved.
The surprising bit about the arrangement is that it does actually work. The more involvement you have with your branch (time and goodwill) the more benefit you get out. The more people that are involved with the club the more benefit everyone gets out. Clubs are greater than the sum of their parts.
On the other hand those that sit back and wait for others to do the work are usually the first to shout that they are not getting value for money. Lack of qualification is no excuse for not being involved in the work. Cylinders need filling, boats need cleaning, telephones need calling, social events need organising, these tasks are open to everyone from the day they join.
So IMVHO if you want to get value for your subs;
1. Most importantly; Want to go diving - there is not much point joining a dive club if you don't want to go diving but you would be surprised how many do! The club officers can not make the sky the right shade of blue, they can not make your lawn grow slower and they are unlikely to want to decorate your hallway, so if these things are more important to you please do not blame the committee for your lack of diving or the instructors for how long you take to qualify.
2. Before you ask what can a club do for me just ask yourself what can I do for a club. If your only answer is 'pay my subs' then, with the greatest respect, the club will be better off without you.
3. Never wait to be asked to help, offer to help. Club membership not only grants you an equal right to the benefits but an equal responsibility to provide those benefits.
FYI: Our branch does not subsidise or expect trainees to pay instructor expenses. There is nothing in our constitution to stop instructors asking for expenses but I don't know of any one that does so. Unqualified divers pay a slightly increased first year membership and instructors may benefit from the increased facilities that the club can offer because of that, as can any other member of the club (but you have to be involved to benefit).
Regards
Matt Stevens
Chairman
Saouthsea Subaqua Club - BSAC009
steve swift
23-04-2003, 21:35
Many thanks for your thoughts.
To summarise, you have all condoned the claiming of 'instructor expenses', however that may be levied, but only so far as the instructor is not making a profit, because that would incur HSE legislation.
I like the idea of claiming from the club, rather than from the individual. Assuming that that is what the instructor in question is charging, claiming back from the club would avoid any misunderstanding.
I now have enough to go back to him with and ask him to find more details about what the charge is for. As I said in the original post, I just thought I would ask for a feel for the principles involved rather than specifics at this stage. If he still feels aggrieved after talking to his instructor again, perhaps he might be persuaded to post the details on this forum.
Many thanks again
Steve
edward haynes
23-04-2003, 22:02
The scenario:
A group of divers go to (lets be adventurous) Stoney Cove, within the group there are two instructors. During the day both teach students various diving skills. Instructor ?A? asks his students for some cash to cover expenses; he gets (say) ?5.00 from each student. Instructor ?B? presents his expenses (with receipts) for the day to his club treasurer. He is reimbursed the equivalent of (say) ?5.00 per student. Has any ?diving at work? taken place?
Over the years I've been instructor A and B, but be interested to hear others views.
Edward
Nigel Hewitt
23-04-2003, 23:47
To summarise, you have all condoned the claiming of 'instructor expenses', however that may be levied, but only so far as the instructor is not making a profit, because that would incur HSE legislation.
On a similar vein... I am an Observer for the Institute of Advanced Motorists. I do not instruct on a motorcycle I merely observe and comment. An Associate member, we don't do trainees, is warned when they start that they are expected to contribute towards the Observer's fuel. We go through this pantomime to keep the law and the insurance companies on team. Money changing hands does not cause problems in itself but making a profit could be suspect and we were warned against this. I am sure a diving instructor can be helped with their expenses while acting in a voluntary capacity without being 'at work'.
Actually I've never accepted cash but I did let them buy the tea if we stopped.
nigelH
Philip Smith
24-04-2003, 00:00
He is reimbursed the equivalent of (say) ?5.00 per student. Has any ?diving at work? taken place?
If the expenses documented by his receipts were less than the equivalent of ?5 per student, then he is at risk of being deemed 'at work'.
Philip Smith
Mike Halligan
24-04-2003, 10:09
Hi, Edward,
Like you, I've been both 'A' and 'B'.
The definition omitted from the Regulations - for that you must shell out for the relevant ACOP and even that isn't clear - is the meaning of 'at work'. This, I tried to suggest earlier, was indistinct but tacitly accepted as where a contract exists for the delivery of something in return for payment (or such similar concept as you may care to define).
A Branch Instructor is not explicitly obliged to remain on site or even to be there in the first place, and there is no contract AFAIK. Whether re-imbursement is arranged in advance or is offered spontaneously, I am not satisfied that there is a contract in the terms stated. All that happens is that the Instructor gives time and knowledge gratis, yet is protected from personal expense.
This has parallels throughout the voluntary sector. If only those of means were capable of rendering voluntary service, the country would be significantly the poorer. Yes, the volunteer gets a glow of satisfaction from his/her generosity of spirit, but should that depend on an ability or willingness also to pay for the privilege?
There is also an increasing understanding that the demonstration by organisations of the true cost of delivery associated with their voluntary service enhances their value in the eyes of politicians. We too can benefit from knowing reliably how much we invest each year in maintaining our skills base and what is the true cost to us of those oft quoted members who leave once they qualify.
Returning to the original topic, I heard a Diving Specialist from HSE present to a Regional Meeting. He was careful to distinguish between club instruction in recreational diving and 'diving operations conducted at work'. This lends weight to the view that so long as re-imbursement is just that, the replenishment of loss from the pocket, then there is no payment and the activity is not being undertaken 'at work'. The Revenue, however, have funny views about re-imbursement and care is needed (as ever) when dealing with them.
Hope this helps,
Mike
Steve Parry
25-04-2003, 15:57
On the subject of (practical)Instructors recovering costs for providing instruction.
It is perfectly justifiable to claim expenses when acting as
a diving instructor. Recovery can be from club funds or on
the day from those divers being trained.
If expenses are not claimed from the clubs central fund,
Instructors should be entitled to clim costs from the
students they train. This is how the BS-AC's SDC
system works to cover instructor costs, and the same
principles should apply.
Steve Parry
Chairman
Luton SAC
Steve
We have had a similar debate in our club, some of our Instructors claim back expenses from the students they have taught, some Instructors (myself included) do not.
I have no problem with Instructors claiming back expenses, as long as that is as far as it goes.
I myself see it as an opportunity to dive & I am teaching someone as a by product of me enjoying myself.
Yes if they give me a lift there, then it can be deemed to be a contribution to expenses, but I pay my own entry fee etc.
The club does supply free air fills to Instructors from our own compressor, and that is far as club contributions go.
The insructors that claim expenses back have made the argument that they are being undermined by those that do not charge, well yes again in a way they are, but I see that as their problem and not mine.
If clubs start charging costs out for everything, where will it stop. Trip organises adding an extra ?10 to the costs to cover time, and phone calls etc?
When I was learning to dive, I used to offer the instructor petrol & entry fee money and they refused, I suppose I took it from him.
Must admit I can't do the Guiness and gateau like he does though!
Richard Croft
DO
Lincoln & District
In a round about way, someone has asked my opinion on this. They are being charged for their instruction by an instructor in the club to which they belong. They are not sure if this is a club-wide policy, sanctioned by the DO or not, but felt it was a bit much to pay their club joining and membership fees, and then have to pay for the instruction as well.
Is there anything in the rules that allows/ disallows payment to individual instructors within a club environment. I must admit, I always thought the whole ethos of the BSAC was that you were taught to dive by the club at no cost (for the instruction), and then later you would do the same for the next generation of wannabe divers.
This is a friend of a friend etc and I don't know the exact details, so this is more a question of the principles involved, but I'd be grateful for any thoughts.
Steve
Andy Nye
29-04-2003, 19:56
The scenario:
A group of divers go to (lets be adventurous) Stoney Cove, within the group there are two instructors. During the day both teach students various diving skills. Instructor ?A? asks his students for some cash to cover expenses; he gets (say) ?5.00 from each student. Instructor ?B? presents his expenses (with receipts) for the day to his club treasurer. He is reimbursed the equivalent of (say) ?5.00 per student. Has any ?diving at work? taken place?
YES, basically you have been rewarded for services given out by yourself, IE, you got money for diving, which is payment for work
Over the years I've been instructor A and B, but be interested to hear others views.
Edward
Philip Smith
29-04-2003, 21:58
YES, basically you have been rewarded for services given out by yourself, IE, you got money for diving, which is payment for work
No, you have not been rewarded if you claim no more than the direct expenses you have incurred.
Philip Smith
YES, basically you have been rewarded for services given out by yourself, IE, you got money for diving, which is payment for work
NO: If the amount received is to cover expenses in accordance with IR terms then it would not be classed as financial gain and so come under the diving at work regulations.
You could charge around 45p per mile to get to/from the site depending on the vehicle, claim entry fees , general expenses ( e.g. lunch ) et al and it would only be classed as expense reimbursement since you have made no financial gain
Dave
Ok here's how we do it.
Working to a ratio of 1:2. Each student pays 50% of the
Instructors entry, boat, air fees. They do not pay for
transport, food or accomodation.
So if we go to say Horsea. Entry ?7 + gas (Instructors only
ever uses one cylinder at Horsea) = ?10. Each student pays an
extra ?5.
If for any reason it's 1:1 then the student still pays 50% and
the club pays the rest.
However ...........
We take full advantage of free entry for Instructors, organiser
goes free, 2 spaces for every 5 students etc. and add
this discount to reduce student fees.
Bottom line is that your Instructor should:
a) Only have basic expenses covered (he is always out of pocket
with traveling etc) so he is NEVER in danger of making
a profit.
b) All such transactions are through the club treasurer or a
breakdown is given to club treasurer.
All open and above board.
TerryH
Bottom line is that your Instructor should:
a) Only have basic expenses covered (he is always out of pocket
with traveling etc) so he is NEVER in danger of making
a profit.
Why should the instructor be out of pocket? There is no reason for that ( other than that being the way you operate in your club )
As long as expenses fall within the approved guidelines for expenses with the Inland Revenue then there is no danger of being classes as making a profit
Dave
Why should the instructor be out of pocket? There is no reason for that ( other than that being the way you operate in your club )
Because we are volunteers. Instructors shouldnt be penalised
for helping, neither should they get free everything.
We end up sharing cars, splitting fuel bills. You would have to
eat even if you were at home and nobody forces you to drink
beer. As for accomodation? This would mean a trip and if a w/e
teaching, would still be 4 free dives including air.
It is after all a club and Instructors or not we all have to
put something in, which is why its' capped at entry, boat & air.
TerryH
:=Why should the instructor be out of pocket? There is no reason for that ( other than that being the way you operate in your club )
Because we are volunteers. Instructors shouldnt be penalised
for helping, neither should they get free everything.
We end up sharing cars, splitting fuel bills. You would have to
eat even if you were at home and nobody forces you to drink
beer. As for accomodation? This would mean a trip and if a w/e
teaching, would still be 4 free dives including air.
It is after all a club and Instructors or not we all have to
put something in, which is why its' capped at entry, boat & air.
They are reasons why your club operates that way; my question relatd to your statement that Instructors should not get their travelling expenses paid. Paying their travelling expenses is quite permissible without it being classed as income.
Dave
They are reasons why your club operates that way; my question relatd to your statement that Instructors should not get their travelling expenses paid. Paying their travelling expenses is quite permissible without it being classed as income.
Fine Dave it's permissable. So we can expect ALL expenses
covered by students down to the last cup of tea.
You might be absolutely breaking even, but it's hardly in the
spirit of a volunteer organsiation.
After all do you get reduced membership with BSAC? Yes.
Reduced membership in club? Well in our club yes.
We even have a scheme where Instructors leave there cylinders
with the club and get them tested for free on the proviso that
everyone can use them. Bonus for the club or the Instructor?
I can spout many other areas where the Instrutors gain through Networking with LDS and other agencies etc. Free courses, extra
dives, it's all part of diving.
Are you prepared to put a figure on that lot and charge each
Instructor?
Bottom line is that if you want to help your club then IMO you
shouldnt be trying to get the last buck out of it. They are
after all supposed to be your mates.
TerryH
Philip Smith
30-04-2003, 16:09
Bottom line is that if you want to help your club then IMO you
shouldnt be trying to get the last buck out of it. They are
after all supposed to be your mates.
That is not how I read Dave's comments. I think he was just stressing that it is not necessary for instructors to be out of pocket to avoid being deemed "at work". Full reimbursment of direct expenses should not count as "gain or reward" and therefore would not invoke DWR97.
Philip Smith
That is not how I read Dave's comments. I think he was just stressing that it is not necessary for instructors to be out of pocket to avoid being deemed "at work". Full reimbursment of direct expenses should not count as "gain or reward" and therefore would not invoke DWR97.
Fine, do we have to turn every post into a full blown debate/
argument.
It might be Ok to charge, but IMO (see that bit, it says In My
Opinion), working it out to the last buck is not what we are
meant to be about.
Ok.
TerryH
Andy Wade
30-04-2003, 21:04
:=That is not how I read Dave's comments. I think he was just stressing that it is not necessary for instructors to be out of pocket to avoid being deemed "at work". Full reimbursment of direct expenses should not count as "gain or reward" and therefore would not invoke DWR97.
Fine, do we have to turn every post into a full blown debate/
argument.
It might be Ok to charge, but IMO (see that bit, it says In My
Opinion), working it out to the last buck is not what we are
meant to be about.
I agree in principle, but I'd rather work it out to the last buck then take less and give the rest to club funds or the RNLI...
Just a thought.
Trainess can see that they are getting a good deal and helping the club or the RNLI and everyone's happy.
Or you could just charge them less and let them know it so that they know they're getting a really good deal for their money.
.
Philip Smith
30-04-2003, 22:44
Fine, do we have to turn every post into a full blown debate/
argument.
It might be Ok to charge, but IMO (see that bit, it says In My
Opinion), working it out to the last buck is not what we are
meant to be about.
Ok.
TerryH
Jeez, Terry, cool it. I was only trying to clear up a developing misunderstanding about the distinction between what is desirable in terms of club spirit and what is legally permissible. A couple of us have tried to clarify the legal aspects, because the issue of "diving at work" was specifically raised. That doesn't mean we advocate a mercenary approach.
Phil
Jeez, Terry, cool it. I was only trying to clear up a developing misunderstanding about the distinction between what is desirable in terms of club spirit and what is legally permissible. A couple of us have tried to clarify the legal aspects, because the issue of "diving at work" was specifically raised. That doesn't mean we advocate a mercenary approach.
Phil
Sorry Phil. Been on UKrec.scuba a bit too much and was still
in attack mode.
Rgds
TerryH
:=Jeez, Terry, cool it. I was only trying to clear up a developing misunderstanding about the distinction between what is desirable in terms of club spirit and what is legally permissible. A couple of us have tried to clarify the legal aspects, because the issue of "diving at work" was specifically raised. That doesn't mean we advocate a mercenary approach.
:=
:=Phil
Sorry Phil. Been on UKrec.scuba a bit too much and was still
in attack mode.
Rgds
TerryH
Phil was correct in his viewpoint on my comments. What I was looking at was what is allowed by the IR as expenses and so would not count as income and so not being classed as being at work. I was not advocating that all amateur instructors should charge as such. I was trying to see if you had some specific legal reason behind the statement that you made or if it was just a personal opinion
The details of what is permissible are quite important and is what I was trying to cover.
What I tend to expect when doing BSAC training depends on the situation. When I have travelled 500 miles round trip to run an SDC I charged for train and hotel which was split between the 6 students which would be quite permissible.
Dave
Ok try this .........
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubaexp.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubaexp.htm</a>
Might be more HQ, but has some details. After that checkout
the Branch Officers Handbook. Has lots to say about expenses
etc.
TerryH
Philip Smith
02-05-2003, 13:35
Sorry Phil. Been on UKrec.scuba a bit too much and was still
in attack mode.
Ah, I see! Thanks for that -- no harm done.
Phil.
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