View Full Version : jacket bcd or wing... Help!!
Hi again...
Ok, so 40+ dives done with rental jacket bcd's, now looking to buy my own gear...
I intend to extend my diving knowledge and experaince into instuctor levels hopefully.
I am looking to buy a s/h bcd and i am tempted to go for a wing style jacket..
Any reccomendations as to whether this is a good move or not would be appreciated. pro's and cons ?????
thanks
If you're considering a wing the best thing to do is see if you can borrow one to try in the pool.
I've recently moved from a jacket to a wing - my reason was I felt restricted/uncomfortable in a jacket with my dry suit on.
I tried a couple of different BCD's and a wing in the pool - took a while to work the wing out but but that's what I've gone with.
At the end of the day, only you know what diving you want to do and what you feel comfortable in.
Hi again...
Ok, so 40+ dives done with rental jacket bcd's, now looking to buy my own gear...
I intend to extend my diving knowledge and experaince into instuctor levels hopefully.
I am looking to buy a s/h bcd and i am tempted to go for a wing style jacket..
Any reccomendations as to whether this is a good move or not would be appreciated. pro's and cons ?????
thanks
If you fancy a wing go for a proper wing not the worst of both worlds "wing style jacket". Get a proper back plate and wing and it will grow with you as your diving changes
Steve Knight
20-01-2009, 08:55
If you're considering a wing the best thing to do is see if you can borrow one to try in the pool.
I've recently moved from a jacket to a wing - my reason was I felt restricted/uncomfortable in a jacket with my dry suit on.
I tried a couple of different BCD's and a wing in the pool - took a while to work the wing out but but that's what I've gone with.
At the end of the day, only you know what diving you want to do and what you feel comfortable in.
What he said.
Try as many different types as you can before you decide
Steve
john scott
20-01-2009, 10:33
If you are considering training to be an instructor it may be worth considering buying a normal BC rather than a wing so that your kit is as close as possible to that of your trainees. Also you only really need a wing if you are using twins. Although I use my wing for 'technical' diving I still use my trusty Buddy BC for teaching and for diving with a single cylinder. I would stick with a normal BC to start with.
I've got a BCD, a single tank wing and a twinset wing. BCD is great for teaching, the single tank wing is brilliant for single tank diving and the twinset wing is brilliant for twinset diving. Each has its merits but the most flexible system is the backplate and 2 wings (one single tank, one twinset).
Hate diving in a BCD now after using a wing for a few years.
If you are considering training to be an instructor it may be worth considering buying a normal BC rather than a wing so that your kit is as close as possible to that of your trainees. Also you only really need a wing if you are using twins. Although I use my wing for 'technical' diving I still use my trusty Buddy BC for teaching and for diving with a single cylinder. I would stick with a normal BC to start with.
I don't subscribe to open water having to be "standard" ( pool it is nice).
We should be teaching students to be thinking people. Too many clubs have turned out student that think you
1. have to dive with a cracker bottle
2. A buddy commando is the only way to go
3. only apex regs are worth having
4. poseidons are too difficult to breathe off
5. Membranes are better than neoprene (and visa versa)
By having standardization in kit we inhibit development and evolution (how does the whole club go from Stab to Wing in one go)
Back a frew years ago we had a mix of Stabs and ABLJs and it did not cause a problem.
Instructors dive on dry suits with student iin semi dry's without a problem
Instructors use computers with students on table
Instructors use pony's with students on singles
What I happen to do is rerig my long hose as an octopus for initial training dives, but that is no great problem.
I love the fact that a variety of kit works to solve the same problem, lets keep it that way.
I use a stab in the pool as it is my old kit and all my pool kit and pool regs live in one bag and sea kit in another, put I would object to anyone teaching in the pool on a wing if that is all they had.
As for "only needing a wing if on twins", there is lots of things we do not need but I find a wing far more pleasant to dive with , on any type of cylinder config.
I'm not saying buy a wing however, I'd probably buy a second hand stab from someone who has just upgraded to a wing and needs the cash ;-)
Tony
ChristianG
20-01-2009, 11:06
I wrote what follows perhaps five years ago to a friend of mine who was looking at going over to a wing, today he happily dives a wing. Understand that it was written some time ago and that it was not intended for public consumption, there are things said which I would have put differently for a forum such as this one. However, it still seems to be relevant:
There are a few things you need to understand:
I love my wing to little bits - I am therefore biased even though I try hard not to be. Mine was tailor made for me by a very small manufacturer locally, to my requirements, well, with my bits added on. Mine is now a good 13 years old - and going strong. The decals have worn off but who cares? Actually I didn't want them in the first place but I didn't want to disappoint him. A mate of mine, Robbert that I did that Cavern Course with, got a Chrissie Pressie of a (discounted) XYZ [name deleted - CG] wing with all the bells and whistles. His cost $1200 off the rack, mine cost $400 tailor made. The XYZ had a fancy set of weights with pull tabs and all sorts of other stuff to control them. My shotweight bags (heavy duty plastic encased) live in twin pockets secured by double velcro at the bottom and a strong zip at the top for loading/unloading. I've never had to use the velcro in anger - I consider that dumping weight other than on the surface is the work of the devil and that dumping weight at the surface simply shows how stupid you are. Robbert sold his XYZ not two years later - I've still got mine. You don't have to ask the question as to why Robbert sold.
So, OK, the Pros and the Cons:
Pros - BCDs:
* Everyone knows how to use them. Well, hopefully so.
* 90% of divers use them, so a stranger buddy should be able to understand yours.
* They initially appear inherently more stable (balance wise) than wings.
* Theoretically BCDs float you face up on the surface - theoretically. Me? I think that Fenzys and Nemrods last did that. Perhaps!
Cons - BCDs:
* They all, some more so than others, squeeeeeeze you as you pump air in.
* There are (relatively) lots of air pockets around your body and the air goes swishing about, albeit relatively slowly.
* Most don't readily lend themselves to twins - I consider that important.
* Most have only one cam band strap - I much prefer two for the inherent safety of that. As well, with two you can lock down twin tanks for simple twin tank dives relatively easily.
* Surface traverses - in a BCD the air is all around you and therefore the tank is pushing your body down.
Before we get onto wings, there are two basic types. One is the horseshoe type where the bag is in that shape ending at the base of the tank - that's mine. The other is the circle type which goes fully around the tank. I've tried both, I don't care one way or the other.
Wings allow the bag to nestle immediately adjacent to the tank/s. There are, however some manufacturers - maybe only one today (OMS), who "bungy" their wings. By which I mean that they are wrapped in bungy cord to keep them "small" and "streamlined" when there is little air in them. This is surely one of the biggest stupidities in diving:
* If you have a small leak, guess what those bloody bungies do? Hello?
* If you look at a deflated wing u/w there is always a little remaining air (just as in a conventional BCD) except that in this case it looks for the highest point and, guess what, your wing is nicely streamlined rather than bungy cord knobbly. Let's not go into the possibility of those cords snagging anything shall we?
Cons - Wings:
* They take getting used to for at least two reasons:
Noise - you can hear that air rushing about as you shift attitude in the water. Actually, that's a Pro also.
Balance - you therefore have more of a balance problem than with a BCD - which you're already used to anyway but perhaps I'm making too much of this.
* Strange - they are, well, different. Only so because you're used to BCDs. If you'd trained in a wing, guarantee you that you'd find a BCD strange.
* Most do not float you face up on the surface. I don't know any that do except mine in twin steel mode but that's really only because my steels are particularly dense (Luxfer 260 bar WP x 7.7 litres).
Pros - Wings:
* Wings routinely have twin cam band straps.
* You are FREE - no squeeze at all, that harness simply sits there.
* That noise (you can hear it, nobody else can) warns you that you may be going off balance. Off balance really is no big deal and adjustment is dead easy.
* Streamlining - no bulky BCD full of air - you almost don't know that you're wearing it.
* Attitude - you can roll onto your side putting all the air into the uppermost wing and simply sit there, watching that wall and swimming along, facing it. Try that in a BCD carrying a big camera rig. A BCD with air is constrained by the tightness of the thing on your body, not all of the air can escape into the optimal chamber and that is one of the serious advantages of a wing.
* Surface traverses - a wing floats your tank on the surface. Your body is no longer in a U shape with your fins pushing air. Why do you think that the majority of experienced divers swim belly up to make a surface traverse, especially when wearing BCDs?
* A full wing on the surface, where the wing is mostly out of the water anyway, anywhere for that matter, is significantly more streamlined than a BCD.
I'm sure that there are not a few things that I have forgotten but that should do for starters.
Forgive me if some of my comments seem as if I'm trying to make my grandmother suck eggs. Experience tells me that if I assume someone knows something, that is precisely what they don't know - it's part of what's called Murphy's Law.
I don't subscribe to open water having to be "standard" ( pool it is nice).
We should be teaching students to be thinking people. Too many clubs have turned out student that think you
1. have to dive with a cracker bottle
2. A buddy commando is the only way to go
3. only apex regs are worth having
4. poseidons are too difficult to breathe off
5. Membranes are better than neoprene (and visa versa)
By having standardization in kit we inhibit development and evolution (how does the whole club go from Stab to Wing in one go)
Back a frew years ago we had a mix of Stabs and ABLJs and it did not cause a problem.
Instructors dive on dry suits with student iin semi dry's without a problem
Instructors use computers with students on table
Instructors use pony's with students on singles
Tony
I agree with you Tony
I can remember a new Diver turning up on an early season club trip. He had only dived in the pool or on inland training dives with one or two instructors who used single cylinders & Stab's. The shock on his face as all the twin sets, ponies & wings appeared would have been funny if not for his real concern. Once we reasured him, he was OK. But I have always thought, that it is much better to get introduced to the variety of kit that people use during your training than suddenly seeing on the boat for the first time. Especially when some have 'teaching kit' & 'diving kit'.
Gareth
I agree with you Tony
I can remember a new Diver turning up on an early season club trip. He had only dived in the pool or on inland training dives with one or two instructors who used single cylinders & Stab's. The shock on his face as all the twin sets, ponies & wings appeared would have been funny if not for his real concern. Once we reasured him, he was OK. But I have always thought, that it is much better to get introduced to the variety of kit that people use during your training than suddenly seeing on the boat for the first time. Especially when some have 'teaching kit' & 'diving kit'.
Gareth
I was probably luck in the fact that the instructors in our club dive a mixture of wings and BCD's and also teach and dive the same set-ups.
Most of the guy's in our club dive BCD's - but thats what they prefer, I've gone to a wing because it feels more comfortable for me.
Richard Whitcombe
20-01-2009, 14:28
Would echo the above advice and not rush into buying and borrow/rent and try before deciding. Its a personal thing about what you're most comfortable with so its worth taking the time to get it right.
Personally i started with a BC then graduated to a wing and there is now not a chance in hell i'd go back to a BC as i dislike their overall fit, their limitations and many other things. I dive in a wing, i teach in a wing (and fwiw have not seen a single problem this has caused with any student even though they're in club BCs), i prefer the fact a harness can be made to fit perfectly, the lack of clutter and the ability to customise a wing gives me. However im happy to admit there are other people who dislike wings and will only use BCs.
The only way for you to find out which type of person you are is to try both.
Asking in clubs for advice isnt always great. Lots of them you'll just end up with a buddy commando and apeks regs because thats what everyone in it has used for the last 3 million years unless you're lucky and find a club that has a variety of different divers. Just because everyone uses it in a club doesn't necessarily mean its the best kit for the job - its simply the only kit anyone had tried so they will always recommend it to someone else.
I would venture that 80%+ of club divers that use BCs have never tried wings. (worldwide probably a higher % than that again).
I still get "What the hell do you want that thing for?!" comments from time to time.
Well thanks for all the replies guys, really given me something to think about... I have done all my dives with a bcd, and i feel comfortably in them.
I have not had any issues with moving around or bouyancy, and i can see the point about teaching using the same kit as the student....
I am of the opinion that i will buy myself a good quality second hand BCD for now, and when i progess onto deeper and longer more adventurous dives i may well add a backplate and wing to my kit.
I have used the trusty commando on several dives and really like the build quality as well as the advantage of the built in "spare air" so will look for a recent good condition one.
Wing maybe in a year or two....
I don't subscribe to open water having to be "standard" ( pool it is nice).
We should be teaching students to be thinking people. Too many clubs have turned out student that think you
1. have to dive with a cracker bottle
2. A buddy commando is the only way to go
3. only apex regs are worth having
4. poseidons are too difficult to breathe off
5. Membranes are better than neoprene (and visa versa)
By having standardization in kit we inhibit development and evolution (how does the whole club go from Stab to Wing in one go)
Back a frew years ago we had a mix of Stabs and ABLJs and it did not cause a problem.
Instructors dive on dry suits with student iin semi dry's without a problem
Instructors use computers with students on table
Instructors use pony's with students on singles
What I happen to do is rerig my long hose as an octopus for initial training dives, but that is no great problem.
Tony
Well I dont agree, at all :(
New student, totally new enviroment and that's the time to start introducing
variants and creating "thinking divers"? Yeah right :rolleyes:
Just maybe as Instructors, how about we do a bit of thinking ourselves and
realise that first scuba is just that, first scuba, and not the bottom rung of
some dive career.
With 80%-85% of the worlds divers never getting past 1st levels, how about
we give students a break and at least attempt to have kit they can look at
and copy.
ChristianG
24-01-2009, 07:38
New student, totally new enviroment and that's the time to start introducing variants and creating "thinking divers"? Yeah right :rolleyes:
I do hope you didn't actually mean that.
Well I dont agree, at all
indeed
Just maybe as Instructors, how about we do a bit of thinking ourselves and
realise that first scuba is just that, first scuba, and not the bottom rung of
some dive career..
Terry,
This could look as if you are suggesting that I have not done "a bit of thinking".
I have thought about this a great deal and decided that I will still wear my drysuit, use my pony, take my computer, take my compass, torch, delayed SMB in my pocket; all things virtually all students on their first dive who I dive with do not have.
I happen to also to have two quick release clips in my harness, so I'm not sure how it is so different from a Stab - please explain how a student is going to get so condused ? Or do we have to have the same model stab
I never read these arguments when students were on ABLJs and and instructors were on stabs (perhaps I had my head in the sand)
Tony
Well thanks for all the replies guys, really given me something to think about... I have done all my dives with a bcd, and i feel comfortably in them.
I have not had any issues with moving around or bouyancy, and i can see the point about teaching using the same kit as the student....
I am of the opinion that i will buy myself a good quality second hand BCD for now, and when i progess onto deeper and longer more adventurous dives i may well add a backplate and wing to my kit.
I have used the trusty commando on several dives and really like the build quality as well as the advantage of the built in "spare air" so will look for a recent good condition one.
Wing maybe in a year or two....
Bazzo - pm me with your size I may have one you'd be interested in as I'm looking to upgrade to a wing shortly!
Terry,
This could look as if you are suggesting that I have not done "a bit of thinking".
I have thought about this a great deal and decided that I will still wear my drysuit, use my pony, take my computer, take my compass, torch, delayed SMB in my pocket; all things virtually all students on their first dive who I dive with do not have.
I happen to also to have two quick release clips in my harness, so I'm not sure how it is so different from a Stab - please explain how a student is going to get so confused ? Or do we have to have the same model stab
I never read these arguments when students were on ABLJs and and instructors were on stabs (perhaps I had my head in the sand)
Tony
Hmm, that's quite a change to the tone of your first post, where you
championed variants. Of course a student can handle the odd ADDITION,
but not a variant in the very basics of kit.
So eg: a wing with shoulder break is fine. A one piece harness no way.
You said "By having standardization in kit, we inhibit development and
evolution".
Trouble is that makes the assumption that this diver both wants to develop
and evolve. Just maybe he'd rather just learn to dive first ;)
Hmm, that's quite a change to the tone of your first post, where you
championed variants.
That much just shows my inability to communicate, as I'm still championing variants. I have clips in my harness as I like it that way, but if another instructor want a one piece harness or a poseidon, so be it.
Tony
That much just shows my inability to communicate, as I'm still championing variants. I have clips in my harness as I like it that way, but if another instructor want a one piece harness or a poseidon, so be it.
Tony
A new student is aprehensivly putting on kit for the first time outside of the
confines of the pool. Half of what little he can remember from those sessions
are mixed in with the butterflys in his stomach.
So he looks over his shoulder at the Instructors kit to make sure the reg is
the right way up - phew thats lucky it is :D
Ok now it's time to kit up and even though he's done it loads of times, today
he's all fingers and thumbs. No matter cause the instructor now standing in
front has the same kit and he can see that he needs to clip that and pull
there.
Where does that octopus go again? Oh and the gauge goes there and the
drysuit feed goes over the shoulder? Oh no it doesnt the Instructor has it
under the arm.
To me it's very, very simple.
The most helpful you can possibly be to your student is to have kit thats
indentical in every way. The more you get away from that, the less helpful
you become and that to me means the Instructor is not doing his job.
Ok it might be impractical for some to have indentical kit, but it's not that
difficult to get pretty close.
To me it's very, very simple.
The most helpful you can possibly be to your student is to have kit thats
indentical in every way. The more you get away from that, the less helpful
you become and that to me means the Instructor is not doing his job.
You are perfectly in you right to draw the wrong conclusions from a set of facts ;-)
Tony
Richard Whitcombe
25-01-2009, 03:03
Haven't had this argument for a while. Im siding with Tony J here. I've not come across a single student thats had a problem with an instructor wearing a wing. Unless you seem to attract remarkably thick students (which i doubt knowing where you teach) i really cant see the basis for youe stance.
Even using BCDs there's a strong chance the students BCD maybe different from the instructors and/or other students. It may have 2 chest straps or 2, it may have a clip across the waist, or velco or none, pocket positions will be different, dump locations will be different, may have a corrugated hose or may have one of the hoseless things like mares jackets and so on. Given that there is no difference between the instructor wearing a different BCD and him wearing a wing - they both do the same job, both have the tank in the same place held in the same way (singles at least), both have a corrugated hose in the same place that works in the same way and so on. It really isnt completely different in the slightest - its extremely similar. If overly worried it'll take about 2 minutes in the pool to show and prove that to the students.
If they want to mimic the instructor and use the inflater button like this, use the hose like this etc they can as its no different at all.
Haven't had this argument for a while. Im siding with Tony J here. I've not come across a single student thats had a problem with an instructor wearing a wing. Unless you seem to attract remarkably thick students (which i doubt knowing where you teach) i really cant see the basis for youe stance.
Even using BCDs there's a strong chance the students BCD maybe different from the instructors and/or other students. It may have 2 chest straps or 2, it may have a clip across the waist, or velco or none, pocket positions will be different, dump locations will be different, may have a corrugated hose or may have one of the hoseless things like mares jackets and so on. Given that there is no difference between the instructor wearing a different BCD and him wearing a wing - they both do the same job, both have the tank in the same place held in the same way (singles at least), both have a corrugated hose in the same place that works in the same way and so on. It really isnt completely different in the slightest - its extremely similar. If overly worried it'll take about 2 minutes in the pool to show and prove that to the students.
If they want to mimic the instructor and use the inflater button like this, use the hose like this etc they can as its no different at all.
I said close as possible.
A standard wing would have clips, hose etc. almost the same as a BC, so no
probs.
Change that to a backplate wing (bolted SDA), one piece harness, maybe
dins and a long(er) hose and you've gone so far past what the student is
using that he has almost no points of reference.
It's very easy to match the student, once its accepted that you are there
for him/her, not the other way round, you end up doing everything you can
to help :D
As for coming across students that didnt have a clue, I can remember many,
but especially one called TerryH about 20 years ago ;) . He was looking at
the Instructors kit all the time and without being able to do that would
probably still be trying to setup now.
Maria CM
25-01-2009, 10:15
I always had to peer at my instructors weight belt to see which way round the release should be. After qualification I solved the problem by getting one with writing on it so it was obvious which way up it should be!
I wonder if this is partly why I prefer integrated weight pouches abroad or a harness here.... ;)
best wishes,
Maria
ChristianG
25-01-2009, 11:15
I always had to peer at my instructors weight belt to see which way round the release should be.
Ahhh, but that release should only be that way if your buddy is right handed. Or am I missing something here as usual?
Of course it also depends on whether your buddy recognises a problem in the first place. As well, it depends on your own philosophical attitude to suddenly going into Polaris missile mode. :rolleyes:
I happen to be fairly ambidextrous. Yes, I can only write with my right hand yet I commonly use a mouse with my left nor do I really care whether I'm left foot front or right foot front on a slalom ski and I get on or off a bike either side without even realising it, whichever's convenient. My former wife, bless her, may as well cut off her left arm if ever the right one is useless.
ChristianG
25-01-2009, 11:35
A standard wing would have clips, hose etc. almost the same as a BC, so no probs.
Change that to a backplate wing (bolted SDA), one piece harness, maybe dins and a long(er) hose and you've gone so far past what the student is using that he has almost no points of reference
Which is why I have, gently and sporadically, suggested that BCDs (of whatever ilk) should not be the only thing that students are made aware of when they first learn. Edit/: I also suggest that a student learning on a wing has exactly the same learning curve, even perhaps a marginally easier one, than a student learning on a conventional BCD. :\Edit
We have an ex-BSAC Instructor couple locally (yes, he's always had a beard but he hardly drinks and has never smoked) who now teach SSI and he has the reputation of being as hard as nails on his students - deservedly so and I applaud that.
In the classroom she only does the equipment lecture. Today that includes conventional BCDs, half-way BCD/Wings and proper wings. I've listened to her (admiringly) often and often later casually talked to the students. They've always understood what she said so it can't be that hard. Incidentally Fran is one of those totally unacceptable people who routinely does an SAC of 8 l/m - under stress.
I think ive said this before but if not then. A few years ago I decided that I wanted to learn to sky dive so attended a course which was run by a pair of very advanced, army and competition sky divers who I think taught me very well. There was a fair bit of theory as well as practical which included being taught how to effect a decent landing. Regrettably though whilst they both taught me to land with feet together and legs bent, when they jumped and landed they ran/walked out the landing on every occasion.
Now I finally get my first dive so of we go up to about 10,500ft at which point, exactlly as taught we climbed out on to the struts and prepared to jump. I was very suprised that I was not worried at all as I had absolute faith in my instructors, the signals were given allthough we could have spoken to each other as it was so quiet.
We jumped and I was hit in the face by a massive blast of air which had never been mentioned in any lesson. Within a split second I had gone from silence and calm to a massive shock which slowly dissapeared but the noise remained. At the agreed level the chutes were deployed and after a few seconds there was a big jerk and I was hanging in the rig but my head was being forced down and I could not lift it. I guess that fear gave me strength because I grabbed the cords that were pushing my head down and pulled as hard as I could( I am now aware that I had forgotten that I had an emergency chute so could have dumped the thing) Any way I forced my head up only to see that the chute had not opened properly and the wind noise was increasing. Finally by pulling cords and kicking hard the chute set itself correctly so all that I need to do was to open it a little more and then settle back and enjoy? the ride. However most of what I had been taught was still at 7000ft and to cut a very long, boring story short I messed up my approach and went in for a landing well away from the intended site. When I finally landed I tried to do what I had seen my instructors do and not what they had taught me to do. Believe me, learners, at least this learner, could not run out a landing and as a result I ended up with a foot full of nuts bolts washers and screws.
But what the experience taught me was that I would never be a part of, dont do as I do, do as I tell you group and that when ever I teach,instruct,show, call it what you will then I will use the same tools( in as far as I am able) as my students and those tools, which may not be the best available but will be simple to use and understand. I really see no point in teaching a novice who is using basic kit when mine is full of a mass of bells and buttons etc.
When first a person learns then just teach what must be known. The shoulds and could,s can come along later.Personally I now believe that when my sky diver instructors taught me that they were, perhaps, showing off their skills which were way above my level and that perhaps they were doing it to fullfill their own ego and even if I am wrong, when the chips were down I did what I had seen them do and not what they had taught me to do and will forever live with the resultant.
As to the original posters question, When I first started looking for a new style boyancy device I found that a BCD allowed me to float relativly easily in a head up position whilst a friends wing put me on my front if it could. So for that reason and that reason only I went for a BCD. However I must say that I was and still am a warm water diver who rarely uses a wet suit or dry suit and for years only used a single cylinder.
Terry
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