Advanced Diver AP2 [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

mark wood

27-09-2005, 23:28

A question regarding the new advanced diver course, specifically the requirements of AP2, I believe that this is one of the elements of the AD course that needs to be signed off by an AI, But does the AI need to be on the dive trip, or can he or she review the planning, marshalling etc and then sign off the trip with aggrement on succesful completion of the trip with the club DO.
I ask this as I am sure I am not the only one doing the new AD course in a small club with no AI within the club, this as making it very difficult to find an AI to go on a dive trip. All sorts of other issues must be arrising I am sure in small clubs such as club members filling trips with priority over any guest AI a training advanced diver can find.
Surely as a club DO has overall responsibility for diving within a club and it is he or she that delegates the responsibilty to organise and marshall a dive to a person they consider capable of the task it would therfore have been a good idea for a DO also to be able to sign off this lesson.

David Walker

28-09-2005, 08:03

I ask this as I am sure I am not the only one doing the new AD course in a small club with no AI within the club, this as making it very difficult to find an AI to go on a dive trip.

Try contacting your regional coach, chances are they will know of someone who would be happy to join you on a trip at some point and assess it.

I'm in the same kind of position as you - i've done all of my AD except AP2 and the other marshalling things that follow... and i've kind of given up on it now. I didn't see much point in trying to arrange special trips around an AI we don't know to a location we don't usually go (which as we don't currently go there is likely difficult to get to / expensive / diving not as good), just for the sake of getting a lesson signed off. Ok it would be nice to finish AD, but i'm just not all that fussed to bother with it all - if we could do it on "normal" diving trips within the branch then fine, its just getting external people in for what is essentially going to be an artificial trip. How can we advertise a trip to the club saying "you're only welcome if you've never been before"???

If you're a bit more keen to finish it than me (not hard) then try the regional coaches and see if they can find someone to help... or otherwise just be a happy Dive Leader / OWI like me :O)

David

michael smith

28-09-2005, 10:20

Hello, I understand the problem that a number of divers have in completing thier AD qualifications. Within Southern Region we shall be organising Advanced Diver Training to cover the theory and AP1/2. Please contact your Regional Coaching Team to see what they can do.

The dive trips organised for the AD AP1/2, should be to new sites that the branch has not been before. One of the roles of the Advanced Diver is to develop the diving within the branch. There is no 100% possibility that the new sites will be better, however there is always the chance.

So I urge you if you only need AP2 to complete your Advanced Diver, find an AI to help you.

Regards Mike

mark wood

28-09-2005, 20:11

Glad to hear its not just me in this situation, I feel it is a great shame that people are giving up on there advanced diver grade due to this difficulty. Did noone consider the difficulties in getting AI's in small clubs let alone finding space on trips for one to guest. I feel i might be joining the ranks of the people who reach this stage and then give up, a great shame as without AD's coming up in small clubs where are the future DO's going to come from.

David Walker

28-09-2005, 21:39

I feel i might be joining the ranks of the people who reach this stage and then give up,

I haven't *completely* given up - i'm just not going to "waste" one of the few weekend/week-long trips we do each year on an experimental trip. No point driving for 5 hours longer to get to somewhere we've never been before, banning people from coming who have been there before, not letting anyone else help with the organisation for fear of making the AP2 bit invalid. If a suitable trip does crop up where we have an AI who's around then fine, i'll ask for it to be signed off. In reality though thats not going to happen til at least next June/July when I move down south, but i'll start looking again when I get somewhere new! :O)

Edit: not that i'm averse to going somewhere new, but we're already at least 4 hours from any coast and most places on easy roads we've been to before. And the places I haven't been to its more than likely that some of the older club members (who usually like to come on these trips) would have been there before which makes them kind of useless.

a great shame as without AD's coming up in small clubs where are the future DO's going to come from.

Yeah, well my Uni club hasn't had an AD as a DO for, well, ever as far as I know. And my home club (who does actually have quite a lot of ADs) doesn't have a DO at all because none of the current bunch of ADs want to do it.

David

Dave

28-09-2005, 21:56

:=I feel i might be joining the ranks of the people who reach this stage and then give up,

I haven't *completely* given up - i'm just not going to "waste" one of the few weekend/week-long trips we do each year on an experimental trip. No point driving for 5 hours longer to get to somewhere we've never been before, banning people from coming who have been there before, not letting anyone else help with the organisation for fear of making the AP2 bit invalid.

I find this a strange view. The AP2 is a good opportunity for a branch to get to try somewhere that is new to the branch. I cannot see why banning people who have been there before would be necessary; just make sure that they are not actively involved in the planning/marshalling et al.

Unless a branch is so insular that they do not ever want to try somewhere new, the AP2 (to me) seems a good impetus to add new locations to a clubs knowledge

Dave

David Walker

29-09-2005, 08:20

I find this a strange view. The AP2 is a good opportunity for a branch to get to try somewhere that is new to the branch. I cannot see why banning people who have been there before would be necessary; just make sure that they are not actively involved in the planning/marshalling et al.

Depends on the AI who's doing it I suppose. The ones I've talked to in the region (when I did the AD theory and AP1) said that we shouldn't have anyone there who'd been before because in reality however much you say "i'm planning this" they will always make suggestions, say "this one was good last time", or "its over there!". They said the only exception usually is the AI who is actually doing the assessing of the trip. Maybe if I go somewhere else it'll be different with different AI's, but like I said I don't know many, so have to go with the few I know.

Unless a branch is so insular that they do not ever want to try somewhere new, the AP2 (to me) seems a good impetus to add new locations to a clubs knowledge

Its not that we don't want to try somewhere new, but we're a student club based just about furthest from the sea you can get. Its difficult to get people to come on trips as it is - if we start saying we have to leave another couple of hours earlier, won't dive at places they've heard of and know to be good (especially for the newish divers), or if it ends up costing more, then it'll be even harder to fill the places.

We can't do AP2 without any divers!

David

Dave

29-09-2005, 10:08

:=I find this a strange view. The AP2 is a good opportunity for a branch to get to try somewhere that is new to the branch. I cannot see why banning people who have been there before would be necessary; just make sure that they are not actively involved in the planning/marshalling et al.

Depends on the AI who's doing it I suppose. The ones I've talked to in the region (when I did the AD theory and AP1) said that we shouldn't have anyone there who'd been before because in reality however much you say "i'm planning this" they will always make suggestions, say "this one was good last time", or "its over there!". They said the only exception usually is the AI who is actually doing the assessing of the trip. Maybe if I go somewhere else it'll be different with different AI's, but like I said I don't know many, so have to go with the few I know.

This idea seems insane. If this was the case AP2 must never be done anywhere that any diver has ever been to before otherwise the person planning could speak to other people that have been to that site

iirc, it is supposed to be planning a dive to somewhere that is new to the branch, not new to the entire diving fraternity. As long as people who have been to the site before are kept away from the planning aspects of the trip, I cannot see any sane reason why they shouldn't attend. It's only an AD assessment FFS ; the AI assessing should be able to assess the candidate's capability

Dave

Michael Sanderson

29-09-2005, 15:28

Quick Question;
Does anyone have definite info on the 20 Qualifying Dives, (I've already completed a lot of them)?

One Instructor I know has created a rather good matrix, but I'm not sure if its OTT or even valid for the qualifying dives ie do we have to cross check them all?

Any AI's explain?

See it here;
<a href="http://www.pecten.co.uk/AD_Matrix.xls" >http://www.pecten.co.uk/AD_Matrix.xls</a>

Andy Wade

29-09-2005, 17:12

:=:=I find this a strange view. The AP2 is a good opportunity for a branch to get to try somewhere that is new to the branch. I cannot see why banning people who have been there before would be necessary; just make sure that they are not actively involved in the planning/marshalling et al.
:=
:=Depends on the AI who's doing it I suppose. The ones I've talked to in the region (when I did the AD theory and AP1) said that we shouldn't have anyone there who'd been before because in reality however much you say "i'm planning this" they will always make suggestions, say "this one was good last time", or "its over there!". They said the only exception usually is the AI who is actually doing the assessing of the trip. Maybe if I go somewhere else it'll be different with different AI's, but like I said I don't know many, so have to go with the few I know.

This idea seems insane. If this was the case AP2 must never be done anywhere that any diver has ever been to before otherwise the person planning could speak to other people that have been to that site

iirc, it is supposed to be planning a dive to somewhere that is new to the branch, not new to the entire diving fraternity. As long as people who have been to the site before are kept away from the planning aspects of the trip, I cannot see any sane reason why they shouldn't attend. It's only an AD assessment FFS ; the AI assessing should be able to assess the candidate's capability

I agree, anything else is adding conditions to the training, and that's been specifically warned against in the training.
No one may add to or take away elements from the training.

.

David Walker

30-09-2005, 08:33

I agree, anything else is adding conditions to the training, and that's been specifically warned against in the training.
No one may add to or take away elements from the training.

I'd love that to be true, but its not the interpretation of the AIs i've talked to, and to be honest reading it myself that does seem to be the rules... although personally I would bend them a bit to make things a bit more practical.

But the rules say "to sites which are unknown to the branch, or any diver involved".

David

Andy Wade

30-09-2005, 09:00

:=I agree, anything else is adding conditions to the training, and that's been specifically warned against in the training.
:=No one may add to or take away elements from the training.

I'd love that to be true, but its not the interpretation of the AIs i've talked to, and to be honest reading it myself that does seem to be the rules... although personally I would bend them a bit to make things a bit more practical.

But the rules say "to sites which are unknown to the branch, or any diver involved".

I see. That's a wee bit draconian to me.
However, as the original poster has stated that they don't have an AI within their branch, then the AI wouldn't know if one of the branch's divers had dived there before, so as long as they didn't get involved directly with the planning, there is no real problem.
For goodness sake, all they want the trainee to do is prove they can plan and run a dive at a new site.
In practical terms it's a rare occurence to have no-one with you who hasn't been there before.
I'd consider that anyone who took the trouble to find out the required 'local diving information' was someone who can organise dive trips properly. It's part of the job description anyway. Provided there wasn't someone actually 'looking over their shoulder' telling them how to do it, I'd be happy signing them off. As long as they can do all the other required bits too...
;-)

.

Paul Beal

30-09-2005, 11:20

As far as I am concerned when running this lesson; as long as the trainee AD plans and runs a successful trip to somewhere that is not used frequently by the branch (i.e not to anywhere inland or Farnes/St Abbs/North Berwick) that is fine. In a branch as big as ours (150 + members this year) making sure the site is completely unknown would be practically impossible and leave us with no ADs.

Paul

Dave

30-09-2005, 12:27

taffgee

30-09-2005, 14:58

I feel that the wording needs to be changed. For branches to work under the current constraints I can not see how many divers will attain AD without breaking or bending the rules.

The wording should be altered to reflect that in the situation where it is not practical to go to a totally unknown site the DO must select a site that is not known to the potential AD or to the divers participating and no that information should be sought from any branch members who have dived the site before.

At least this will give potential ADs a fighting chance to qualify. In the end isn't the potential AD being assessed on his/her ability to organise and conduct the trip or their ability to find a totally new location?

Taff

Dave

30-09-2005, 21:25

Agreed.

Also, imo, it would be sensible for the site to be known to another person ( ideally the assessor ) in order to be able to assess whether the plan is safe before the dive.

Given that this is an assessment on whether the diver is competant to plan dives to new sites rather than just a planned dive to a new location by a qualified person, wouldn't it be sane if someone can verify the safety of the dive

Dave

Steve Pearson

02-10-2005, 09:03

I have booked a dive on 29th/30th Oct to the Farnes diving with Billy Sheils.

If anyone wanting to do AP2 wants to join us let me know and you can email me and I will sort it out for you to organise the weekend. Cost is ?25/day for the diving and we can accomodate for up to 18 divers

This is your chance guys, for those who don't have an AI in their club.

There will be several AI's/ADs on the trip and therefore plenty of experience and advice to call upon

Steve

mark wood

03-10-2005, 21:00

Thanks for the offer, but unfortunately I regularly organise trip to the Farnes myself anyway, in fact the last one has been a weekends rib diving there this last weekend, so unfortunately the Farnes cannot be used by myself
Regards
Mark

colin tarry

04-10-2005, 08:39

Looks like 2006 is going to be a Advanced Diver free year.

taffgee

04-10-2005, 13:52

Neil Carter

04-10-2005, 14:19

It would be nice to hear from BSAC HQ on this subject to see if things can either be changed or at least a reconition of the problems faced by us potential ADs'.

As a matter of interest has any one dropped a email to BSAC HQ re this topic?

Maybe somewhat more to the point, why has no-one at HQ or from the NDC picked up on the thread and posted an answer, or at least a holding comment? The thread is being conducted in a reasoned manner, and is obviously of importance to members seeking clarification about a possible anomaly in the reqs for one of our senior Diver Grades. It's already a week since the original query was first posted, and as it's nearly a month since we were asking ourselves whether many members still use the Forums, maybe this is one of the reasons why interest is waning.

This should be one of BSAC's most valuable resources in keeping in touch with, or even, dare I say it, entering into discussion and debate with the membership, but apart from our favourite Moderator, and the occasional post from Mary T, who else have we heard from since the new Council was elected?? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.

Many, if not most, of the well known and long serving Members and Forum familiars have long since disappeared, but strangely enough, many still regularly appear on the YD Forum, now apparently with something over 4000 registered members - I wonder why??

NC

Dave Sydenham

04-10-2005, 16:53

I can tell you that the NDC are aware of this issue and it is being looked at. It was also discussed at last weekends Regional Coaches meeting. I am sure if and when anything has been decided this will be communicated to the membership. Please be assured that everyone at HQ and on the NDC are working extremely hard behind the scenes on behalf of us all.

My best advice would be to contact your Regional Coach who will do their best to advise of any AI's or NI's who may be able to assist. Many Regions are running or have run Advanced Diver lessons/courses to try and help. If you want to try running a weekend somewhere you haven't been before, try inviting a local AI along I'm sure they would help if at all possible.

If anyone would ever like to organise a weekend up around the NE of Scotland then myself or other members of the Coaching team would no doubt be delighted to help out if we are available.

Cheers!

Dave
:o)

Dave Sydenham
North Scotland Regional Coach
<a href="mailto:scotland.north.coach@bsac.com">scotland.north.coach@bsac.com</a>

:=It would be nice to hear from BSAC HQ on this subject to see if things can either be changed or at least a reconition of the problems faced by us potential ADs'.
:=
:=As a matter of interest has any one dropped a email to BSAC HQ re this topic?

Maybe somewhat more to the point, why has no-one at HQ or from the NDC picked up on the thread and posted an answer, or at least a holding comment? The thread is being conducted in a reasoned manner, and is obviously of importance to members seeking clarification about a possible anomaly in the reqs for one of our senior Diver Grades. It's already a week since the original query was first posted, and as it's nearly a month since we were asking ourselves whether many members still use the Forums, maybe this is one of the reasons why interest is waning.

This should be one of BSAC's most valuable resources in keeping in touch with, or even, dare I say it, entering into discussion and debate with the membership, but apart from our favourite Moderator, and the occasional post from Mary T, who else have we heard from since the new Council was elected?? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.

Many, if not most, of the well known and long serving Members and Forum familiars have long since disappeared, but strangely enough, many still regularly appear on the YD Forum, now apparently with something over 4000 registered members - I wonder why??

NC

Sean Gribben

04-10-2005, 18:00

Hi all,
As leader of the Diver Training Group on the NDC the remit of responsibility for the Diver Training Programme falls into my area.
As such this matter is currently being looked into.
In fact it was raised 2 months ago via HQ and passed on to me.

The Diver Training Programme has existed as it is for a few years now.
As such this issue has existed within it since its inauguration.
To "quick fix" the perceived problems in a month may not resolve all the issues.
Hence we have been looking closely at the problem and looking at ways to solve it for all our membership.

Solutions often cause ripples in other areas, thus we wish to ensure that the fix agreed by NDC does not cause greater ramifications across the Diver Training Programme.

I hope that this answers the questions as to what is being done.

If anyone wishes to correspond with me via e-mail please feel free to contact me at <a href="mailto:sean.gribben@bsac.com">sean.gribben@bsac.com</a>
This can be on any matter that you feel is causing you issue within the DTP or Diver Training.

Communications are a two way process.
In order to resolve problems that exist my group needs to be aware of them.
Often problems are diluted by the route that they take.
For direct information giving your best route to the NDC is via contact through:
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndc/ndcplan.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndc/ndcplan.htm</a>
There you will find the direct address to contact the person responsible for a specific area within the NDC.
Glad to be of any assistance.

Sean

Martin

04-10-2005, 18:16

Aaaaargh.

As far as I can tell, the qualifying dives are just the same as at dive leader, you fill the boxes, one dive in each box. I personally read the manual as saying that one dive can fill 2/3 boxes, but it's better not to raise that row again. I don't think there is any need to cross reference/check the dives in the way your grid tries to suggest, Mathew.

And if no diver can have visited sites before, well, that's just ridiculous. Mathew, I had done half of the sites on your AP2 assessment weekend already. Sorry mate.

Now, that Dive planning and marshalling SDC, along with a whole heap of experience in the branch. Whilst I appreciate the need for formal assessments and what not, I hate them aswell. Surely Mr(/Mrs) DO can perhaps suggest that Diver bloggs has done quite a lot of organising trips to various places, and seems to be managing not to kill anyone.

Just my frustrated 2peneth worth.
Martin

Quick Question;
Does anyone have definite info on the 20 Qualifying Dives, (I've already completed a lot of them)?

One Instructor I know has created a rather good matrix, but I'm not sure if its OTT or even valid for the qualifying dives ie do we have to cross check them all?

Any AI's explain?

See it here;
http://www.pecten.co.uk/AD_Matrix.xls

Neil Carter

04-10-2005, 21:54

Neil Carter

04-10-2005, 22:12

The Diver Training Programme has existed as it is for a few years now.
As such this issue has existed within it since its inauguration.
To "quick fix" the perceived problems in a month may not resolve all the issues.
Hence we have been looking closely at the problem and looking at ways to solve it for all our membership.

Sean

Thanks for the quick response, as I said in reply to Dave's post, the response was all we were looking for, I hope I was not suggesting in any way that a "quick fix" was being looked for. This is BSAC after all ;~}}. Sometimes, all the poor b****y infantry need to know is that the General Staff are actually aware of their problems, and might even be able to offer a fix, in the fullness of time. As you so rightly say, "Communications are (indeed) a two way process"

NC

taffgee

05-10-2005, 13:32

Thanks for your reply

Taff

mark wood

05-10-2005, 20:20

I too am pleased to see that we now have these responses from BSAC and the NDC. Although I originally started this particular post in respect of the problems I personally was having with AP2, I was glad to hear, by the response of others, that I was not the only one having great difficulty with this particular requirement of the new AD course. I am also glad to hear that it is being discussed by BSAC and hopefully eventually a workable sollution will be found, because without some form of compromise being found on this issue I personally feel that people like me doing the AD course will reach this stumbling block, give up, and remain as Dive Leaders, which can only serve to cause problems in the future for clubs having no AD's coming forward who would be able to act as club DO's