Instructor Expenses

[David G]

I am interested in knowing how (if at all) your branch instructors get compensated for the costs they incur taking trainees on their instructional dives?

Does the branch pay them a set contribution per day/dive/lesson taught?
Do the trainees pay some/all the expenses on the day?

I do not wish this thread to turn into a commercial/amateur argument and the legalities of payments; I am only talking about re-imbursements either in full or contributions towards.

What I am trying to do is cost an Ocean Diver course accurately for people who enquire...otherwise things can be a bit open-ended.....and end up more expensive than first thought!

Thanks in advance,

David.

[pinga]

I am interested in knowing how (if at all) your branch instructors get compensated for the costs they incur taking trainees on their instructional dives?

Does the branch pay them a set contribution per day/dive/lesson taught?
Do the trainees pay some/all the expenses on the day?

In our branch trainees generally pay for the instructor's entrance fees (if there is one). They'll pay fuel if this is agreed in advance, but this isn't usual. The branch doesn't pay anything. It's basically up to the instructor and trainees to agree which costs are met.

[David Walker]

I am interested in knowing how (if at all) your branch instructors get compensated for the costs they incur taking trainees on their instructional dives?

We pay full expenses for eg Stoney entry + air fills, and a contribution towards travel. Our travel money actually comes from the Union (we're a uni club) who say that they get 9p/mile (effectively) for car driving. Technically its 18p/mile, but the Union's funny maths means we only get half. Obviously that only counts if they drive separately...

Occasionally someone will pay all the expenses on the day, and just claim it back in one big chunk, but works the same way - instructor doesn't pay anything for diving while teaching.

I know a lot of other clubs don't do that, but we are able to get the money to and so think its a good thing to do - makes getting instructors that bit easier.

David

[nick kay]

For Ocean Diver:
The trainee "offers" to pay the entry fee & a contribution towards fuel - its up to the Instructor whether they accept.

For Sports Diver upwards, then its "nice" if the trainee offers, but not a requirement. We find that most trainees offer and add in a "butty".

However, we have free air & Nitrox at our club and as most DLs / Instructors have two single cylinders or a twin set, no cost for gas

[Dave Barratt]

A couple of years ago we decided to include basic instructor expenses, for the open water dives, in the cost of the courses we run. Most of the training is done in Stoney (we're based in Coventry) and for each session the instructor gets the entrance fee (?8.00 - we buy our own DiverLog cards)+ ?4.00 petrol.

At the start of each course we work out the cost from the number of students (max of 6) and the number of dives to be done. This cost is then divided between the students and included within the course cost they are asked to pay.

For training trips to the coast, instructor costs are divided between the number of students being trained, and added to the cost of the trip.

After each training session the instructor completes an expense form and submits a claim to the club Treasurer. This way the instrutor is not out of pocket for training, and the trainee does not have to be asked for money by the instructor. It works for us.

[matts]

We leave it down to the discretion of the trainee and the instructor.

Primarily I dive and teach diving because I enjoy it. In the Winter I pretty much pay my own way, but appreciate the odd apres lesson beer. If we get a free space for booking a boat or whatever it gets split around those teaching. In the Summer my priorities are offshore and I do not have much time to do lessons at all. If someone is really keen and I enjoy teaching them, I will suggest that they might want to pay my boat fee as I am already diving to the extents of my wallet - but somehow I don't like it.

I have had some trainess do more than they needed, expensive bottles of wine and the like. By far the best was an expenses paid invite to the Officers Summer Ball. It ended up costing me a fortune after the girlie had a new dress! But it was another of those experiences money can't buy that club membership throws up now and again...and the 2nd hand DJ came in useful at the branch 50th do too.

[bobg]

I do it cos I like doing it so money is not a consideration. Trainees, IMO, have enough expenses to pay out without adding mine to the pot and have already paid the club for training so shouldnt it really be the club that offers these things. (sorry if tht sounds pompous, its just the way it goes down in written form)

Didnt this come up a while back (about 3 years ago to be precise) because the HSE? deemed an instructor was classed as professional when he accepted money from a student to cover his petrol - even though it was offered and not asked for?

[Nigel Hewitt]

Trainees, IMO, have enough expenses to pay out without adding mine to the pot and have already paid the club for training so shouldnt it really be the club that offers these things.

Although we probably all agree that an instructor should not be forced to be out of pocket I know how you feel.

I was an Observer for the IAM on motorcycles for many years (not an instructor for, I suspect, insurance reasons). We did one-to-one instruction (observation?) on a trainee and there were guidelines on expenses but I never took more than a cup of tea over the final debrief. Frankly I enjoyed it and I don't expect people to pay for my fun blatting around the countryside.

Now I'm progressing on scuba instructing I can't see it being any different. If it wasn't going to be fun I would never have started in the first place.

[matts]

I do it cos I like doing it so money is not a consideration.

Money is always a consideration for the vast majority of us. I enjoy teaching, but I enjoy diving offshore more.

Trainees, IMO, have enough expenses to pay out without adding mine to the pot and have already paid the club for training

Not in my branch. A new trainees pays ?20 and a crossover without rescue skills pays ?10 more than I do as a renewing AD/OWI. That helps to offset the pool and equipment that my fees have been subsidising for years.

Training is something our instructors might want to do, but they are not compelled to. We do not charge any fees for a training service because the club can not provide a set level of training service. This is explained at joining and those that want such a service are advised to approach a commercial school. We are a dive club for divers - training is a means to an end, not the means in itself.

so shouldnt it really be the club that offers these things.

My club offers nothing but a share in the assetts and the right to vote. The rest is down to the membership and what they want to offer.

(sorry if tht sounds pompous, its just the way it goes down in written form)

We all have out opinions and pick our clubs accordingly.

Didnt this come up a while back (about 3 years ago to be precise) because the HSE? deemed an instructor was classed as professional when he accepted money from a student to cover his petrol - even though it was offered and not asked for?

Many of the people I helped to train now send me Christmas presents and Birthday presents, does that mean I am At Work? If I share a car for work I expect the occupant to contribute to fuel, does that make me a minicab? If the HSE want to try and prove I make money from instructing scuba within the branch, they are welcome to try. One look at my accounts and it is pretty obvious it costs me every lesson I teach.

[Dave]

Many of the people I helped to train now send me Christmas presents and Birthday presents, does that mean I am At Work?

As long as the gifting was not pre-agreed and is just a gift, then no.

If I share a car for work I expect the occupant to contribute to fuel, does that make me a minicab?

Nope, car pooling is covered by legislation. As long as you are just sharing expense costs then it is fine

If the HSE want to try and prove I make money from instructing scuba within the branch, they are welcome to try. One look at my accounts and it is pretty obvious it costs me every lesson I teach.

If you are only getting recompensed for your expenses then there is no issue. It is only if you are getting gain out of the arrangement that you would be classed as at work or if you were working either for gain or voluntarily for a commercial operation

You can be paid travel expenses ( in accordance with IR guidelines e.g. 40p per mile for up to 10k miles per year claimed ) plus admission costs without being classed as at work

Dave

[Martin]

I, personally, don't take any expenses for instructing. when I first started, I did, but that was because I was a struggling student, wanting to help but couldn't afford the petrol often.

Nowadays, I don't bother. This is because I rather enjoy doing it. I observe certain personal rules - I only do training when and if I want to do it, and I only do training in the Sea. For Ocean divers, that means pleasant shore or RIB dives, for SD/DL that usually means either RIB or hard boat diving. I pay my own boat fees, but don't mind, because we go and do an actual 'dive' rather than just popping in and out to do drills.

The upshot of the above is that Ocean diver training, which I enjoy but find generally isn't the best 'diving' costs me very little (you don't get charged entry to the Sea), and SD/DL training is generally good diving aswell as training, so I don't mind paying for it.

I can see how those of you using inland sites regularly would feel out of pocket paying large amounts of money to stoney cove, etc, just to spend your day doing drills with someone.


I am interested in knowing how (if at all) your branch instructors get compensated for the costs they incur taking trainees on their instructional dives?

Does the branch pay them a set contribution per day/dive/lesson taught?
Do the trainees pay some/all the expenses on the day?

I do not wish this thread to turn into a commercial/amateur argument and the legalities of payments; I am only talking about re-imbursements either in full or contributions towards.

What I am trying to do is cost an Ocean Diver course accurately for people who enquire...otherwise things can be a bit open-ended.....and end up more expensive than first thought!

Thanks in advance,

David.