Is instructor crossover to easy

[Mark Cowgill]

Is it to easy for instructors from other agencys to cross over as BSAC instructors.We have to go through what I see as quite intensive training, both in the classroom and in the water to become OWI, are other agency instructors as intensively trained?.
They could be, I dont know, just thought I would ask.

I know of someone who went elsewhere to get there instructor training and then crossed back to BSAC as it was easier crossing back to Bsac as an instructor than doing the whole thing,(or maybe it was quicker) can this be right.

[MSutcliffe]

The majority of crossovers I would expect come from PADI.

My impression of the PADI IDC and IE are that they are fairly hard, although that may have more to do with learning the 'PADI' marketing system than learning how to teach diving.

I think if someone can teach a PADI course, then they can probably teach a BSAC course or a SDI course etc... They just need an 'induction' to the BSAC system.

Crossing BSAC to PADI is different, because of the 'professional' nature of the work, and the need to learn the marketing system.

[one_tc]

If it is to easy to become a BSAC instructor, that's an issue to take up with BSAC since they set the criteria, i.e. an IFC. That said, an area I can see that BSAC divers have an advantage is the amount of rescue practise - in terms of number of lifts and depths.

Personally I think it's a lot harder and more costly to become a (good) instructor with some other agencies. The only difficulties I found with BSAC was actually getting on a course in the first place.

Of course they are always exceptions to the rule, and you get people that seem to pass by doing the absolute minimum in any organisation

[Chris Cherrington]

...are other agency instructors as intensively trained?.
....

On the whole more so IMHO. What they lack is the BSAC mentoring and opportunity to learn in a teaching environment*. If anything is too easy its the BSAC course, but I think 99.9% of BSAC OWI turn out okay so perhaps its "the best fit" for the club system.

Chris

* with the exception of the (well run) internships some schools offer (i.e. not "you work for nothing for a year" ones..:D)

[bakerstreet]

Dive Leader has one theory exam. The DiveMaster course has 5 exams all on different topics of diving.

However there is a number if SDScthat may get you closer to the PADI DM standard. Not many written exams there though.

From what I have heard, the PADI route is actually harder than the BSAC route.

However BSAC do offer the advantage of letting you have instructor title after your name very early on. Possibly a bit too early.

I totted up the costs recently. You will be looking at £250 to get you to OWI and that doesn't include any experience of diving inbetween or indvidual expenses. I estimate that I will have sunk £500 by the time I am qualified and that is on courses and expenses. Club is stumping up for some of that though.

From what I have gathered, you would be looking at £1000 to get to OWI. Ready to be corrected on that though.

[Richard Whitcombe]

On the whole more so IMHO.

Id go with that.

BSAC you have the TIE (lecture and 1 exam) and PIE. From PADI for example you have about 6 exams, pool lessons, skill circuits, rescue assessments and lecture spread over 1.5 days.
Having been exposed to both i certainly dont think crossing over is too easy - if anything the standard is as high or maybe higher elsewhere.

[Steve in Sharm]

Dive Leader has one theory exam. The DiveMaster course has 5 exams all on different topics of diving.

However there is a number if SDScthat may get you closer to the PADI DM standard. Not many written exams there though.


ROTFL :D Is this a troll?

There are 8 DM exams. A properly trained BSAC DL could ace all of them without any further study except for 2 (DM conducted programmes and Supervising Students).


From what I have heard, the PADI route is actually harder than the BSAC route.

Where did you hear 'cock and bull' that from? You can start the PADI DM course after only 20 dives, as long as you have 60 by the time you finish - most BSAC divers would not even consider starting to go anywhere near 'supervisory' levels until way after that.....


However BSAC do offer the advantage of letting you have instructor title after your name very early on. Possibly a bit too early.

Against PADI's 100 dive criteria :eek: (you can even be a Master Scuba Diver Trainer after 104 dives. )


I totted up the costs recently. You will be looking at £250 to get you to OWI and that doesn't include any experience of diving inbetween or indvidual expenses. I estimate that I will have sunk £500 by the time I am qualified and that is on courses and expenses. Club is stumping up for some of that though.

From what I have gathered, you would be looking at £1000 to get to OWI. Ready to be corrected on that though.

Think more in the thousands, dependant of course on your starting point!!

Regards

Steve

[Richard Whitcombe]

ROTFL :D Is this a troll?

There are 8 DM exams. A properly trained BSAC DL could ace all of them without any further study except for 2 (DM conducted programmes and Supervising Students).

And would also fail the decompression exam. Firstly due to not knowing the tables but secondly because even at DL level the BSAC syllabus includes just about nothing at all about decompression theory, models and how they work. A big oversight imho.

I can also think of many people who would fail the physics exams - again if we're talking about stuff directly from the syllabus a lot of those questions (such as the buoyancy, life bag usage and so on) would not be known.



Where did you hear 'cock and bull' that from? You can start the PADI DM course after only 20 dives, as long as you have 60 by the time you finish - most BSAC divers would not even consider starting to go anywhere near 'supervisory' levels until way after that.....

Compare like with like. "would not consider" is irrelevant - you CAN if you so wish rush through in BSAC or PADI in that way. BSAC assistant instructor could be done with around 12 dives if wanted. There is no minimum for instructor and i can think of many OWIs who have yet to log 100 dives.

[MattS]

And would also fail the decompression exam. Firstly due to not knowing the tables but secondly because even at DL level the BSAC syllabus includes just about nothing at all about decompression theory, models and how they work. A big oversight imho.Hmm. You missed the no-deco and deco lines in the table, the surface interval table, the altitude and transfer tables, then. Those would seem to cover the majority of decompression theory. The diver first aid stuff is also pertinent. Further than that you are into studying particular algorithms and physiological hypothesis - fine for geeks but not exactly essential.

I can also think of many people who would fail the physics exams - again if we're talking about stuff directly from the syllabus a lot of those questions (such as the buoyancy, life bag usage and so on) would not be known.What is missing on the physics side of things? I lament the passing of divers actually knowing the scientists names; [ed]Archimedes, Henry, Boyle, Charles and Dalton. I am pretty certain I am still teaching all the principles somewhere between OD and DL.

Compare like with like. "would not consider" is irrelevant - you CAN if you so wish rush through in BSAC or PADI in that way.The speed of progression would be pretty obvious to the small number of people able to assess BSAC instructors. Even so, meeting the assessment criteria would be sufficient to pass in record time, true enough. To the best of my knowledge the assessors look for a basic level of diving skill as well as the teaching skill.

OK compare like with like. How many lessons and assessments of the BSAC course syllabi does a crossover instructor have to complete? Is it more or less than a home grown BSAC instructor? That would be less then. Which is really the only issue I have with some (PADI) crossover instructors, they can dilute the BSAC syllabus. This usually takes the form of making comparisons with the (PADI) syllabus they have learnt, but are not actually teaching. Other than that the instructional styles are no better or worse than might be found amongst BSACs home grown instructors, in my experience.

BSAC assistant instructor could be done with around 12 dives if wanted. There is no minimum for instructor and i can think of many OWIs who have yet to log 100 dives.There is a minimum for instructors. BSAC instructors must complete DL before being eligible for instructor status. To reach DL requires a minimum number of dives outside of lesson, or a set number of course minutes underwater and a set level of varied experience outside of courses, depending on when DL was completed.

You appear to be a bit of a PADI advocate at times Richard. Do you have an agenda you haven't told us about by any chance? Sorry that's a bit blunt but I am genuinely wondering.

[ChristianG]

Hmm. You missed the no-deco and deco lines in the table, the surface interval table, the altitude and transfer tables, then.
SSSSSNIP!

Thanks Matt,

I was beginning to wonder whether my attitude to BSAC vis a vis PADI needed the equivalent of climate change. :rolleyes:

[JimW]

I lament the passing of divers actually knowing the scientists names; Pythagoras...

:confused:
surely you mean his mate Archie? (I can't spell Archimedes!:rolleyes: )

Jim the pedant:eek:

[Alison Boler]

There are slight differences but I wouldn't say it was easier AT ALL. The commercial orgs tend to put more emphasis on knowing a lot of the standards of operation, commercial rules, certain sales skills and less on standing up and delivering a lecture for instance. I don't think there's a lot of difference in the pool work or o/w work especially at the lower end. BSAC has boathandling of course.
Easier is the wrong word. Different in certain areas that are more or less relevant to the instructor's environment, I'd go with.
Allie

[MattS]

:confused:
surely you mean his mate Archie? (I can't spell Archimedes!:rolleyes: )
What was I saying about divers not knowing the scientists names these days :o

Thanks for the correction Jim.

[bakerstreet]

ROTFL :D Is this a troll?

Never done any trolling on this forum or any other for that matter. Feel free to read through my posts.

There are 8 DM exams. A properly trained BSAC DL could ace all of them without any further study except for 2 (DM conducted programmes and Supervising Students).

Not sure about that. someone one else has also said this. They have en entire exam based on physics, where as the DL may have 5 or 8 questions in one exam.

Where did you hear 'cock and bull' that from? You can start the PADI DM course after only 20 dives, as long as you have 60 by the time you finish - most BSAC divers would not even consider starting to go anywhere near 'supervisory' levels until way after that.....

An instructor at my club. He has been down both roads.

Against PADI's 100 dive criteria :eek: (you can even be a Master Scuba Diver Trainer after 104 dives. )

Yep that is scary. Cant deny that. Had a DM trainee take me on my trip to Dahab. 75 Dives and he was in charge of looking after us. To be fair he was good and never bragged :)

Think more in the thousands, dependant of course on your starting point!!

Fair enough. BSAC is certainly the cheaper option. COuld well be cheaper as it is obvioulsy missing the commercial aspects of the PADI courses, but that is to be expected.

[Tony Dwyer]

Dive Leader has one theory exam. The DiveMaster course has 5 exams all on different topics of diving.

And all of them a doddle if you read a bit. :)


However there is a number if SDSc that may get you closer to the PADI DM standard. Not many written exams there though.


I would expect an experenced Dive Leader to be at least equivalent to a DM in diving skills. The theory is just a matter of a little study to get into the PADI mind set.


From what I have heard, the PADI route is actually harder than the BSAC route.

Choke...What a load of bull puckey..It's just somewhat different because it's aiming the diver at a different place.

There is much that most experienced BSAC Dive Leaders would understand instinctively that most new DMs would be baffled by. I would add that most DMs don't qualify in the UK, they learn in warmer climes and then have to learn LOTS of new stuff if they decide to dive in our colder waters.

I've dived off California with locally trained DMs, before I acquired a PADI cert. They were somewhat amazed by my preparedness and self reliance and that I understood their techniques and processes. The same was not true the other way around.
The fact that I owned all the gear I was using was another source of amazement.

My PADI OWI exam was an intense two days, but not really hard. I found it straitforward. Preparation, Practise + Confidence = Easy Pass.
The in water basic skills assessment was really easy. ANY experienced diver should be able to blitz it. Strange that a number of entrants failed the basic skills that weekend. That would have been an expensive waste of time for them.

My BSAC OWI was much the same, but a tad more anxious. Why? Because I was beinig judged by peers that I really respected rather than an American I'd never met before.


However BSAC do offer the advantage of letting you have instructor title after your name very early on. Possibly a bit too early.


No earlier than many DMs and Dive Master is considered to be the first 'professional' PADI qualification.


I totted up the costs recently. You will be looking at £250 to get you to OWI and that doesn't include any experience of diving inbetween or indvidual expenses. I estimate that I will have sunk £500 by the time I am qualified and that is on courses and expenses. Club is stumping up for some of that though.

From what I have gathered, you would be looking at £1000 to get to OWI. Ready to be corrected on that though.

Expect to spend a good deal more than that if you want a PADI OWI ticket and add more pennies for each 'Speciality' you tack on. Oh and if you're doing the Dive Master 'Internship', expect to work hard as a 'Gopher' for no pay for a while. In fact you will probably be expected to pay for the priviledge. :(

Regards

Tony
BSAC AD + OWI
PADI MSDT & scars .. errr! Skills.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Hmm. You missed the no-deco and deco lines in the table, the surface interval table, the altitude and transfer tables, then. Those would seem to cover the majority of decompression theory. The diver first aid stuff is also pertinent. Further than that you are into studying particular algorithms and physiological hypothesis - fine for geeks but not exactly essential.

He is on about a BSAC DL passing the PADI DM exams. As BSAC doesn't mention a thing about compartment models, M-values, half times or anything of the sort then no way would a "properly trained BSAC DL" be able to pass the exam "without study" which was the original claim.
Whether you think its relevant or not it IS needed to pass the divemaster exam. (although personally i dont think BSAC provided anywhere near enough information on decompression models and procedures for courses that allow mandatory deco but thats a different subject altogether)


What is missing on the physics side of things? I lament the passing of divers actually knowing the scientists names; [ed]Archimedes, Henry, Boyle, Charles and Dalton. I am pretty certain I am still teaching all the principles somewhere between OD and DL.

The principles are there, the practical application type questions certainly aren't on any of the BSAC exams to that level.


The speed of progression would be pretty obvious to the small number of people able to assess BSAC instructors. Even so, meeting the assessment criteria would be sufficient to pass in record time, true enough. To the best of my knowledge the assessors look for a basic level of diving skill as well as the teaching skill.

Again fine - and its no different to PADI where people have to pass assessment criteria, again contrary to Steves claim about there being a difference.


This usually takes the form of making comparisons with the (PADI) syllabus they have learnt, but are not actually teaching. Other than that the instructional styles are no better or worse than might be found amongst BSACs home grown instructors, in my experience.

The same works both ways. FWIW i'd not disagree with a crossover instructor having to pass PIE or something similar. The systems are very different in terms of teaching style and procedures and going from one to the other without mentoring or assessment could cause issues.


You appear to be a bit of a PADI advocate at times Richard.

Against PADI's 100 dive criteria (you can even be a Master Scuba Diver Trainer after 104 dives. )

Its things like this i was countering - he gives the shocked impression you can be an instructor in PADI with as little as 100 dives. Whilst true i was simply pointing out you can be the same in BSAC with far less dives. That doesn't mean people should but the possibility is there in BOTH systems to produce low-dive number instructors.

No. I started for years as BSAC, did PADI to allow me to teach abroad and do both. However some posts like Steves above certainly appear to be verging on PADI bashing. Both agencies have good points and both have their bad points in my view. There are many things both could do to improve. Im just sick of the usual standards arguments that appear (and in this thread) especially when they have no basis in fact.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Oh and if you're doing the Dive Master 'Internship', expect to work hard as a 'Gopher' for no pay for a while. In fact you will probably be expected to pay for the priviledge. :(

That just gets you used to working as a divemaster with effectively no pay for 14hr days, 7 days a week. Which in turn prepares you for working as an instructor with the same. Thats not an agency thing - its generally the way things work in lots of areas.

[one_tc]

Don't forget to be a to teach commercially, a Padi instructor in the UK needs to pass an HSE medical which would rule out a lot of BSAC divers I see. DDRC should be doing some reseach in to the effects of DCS vs extreme levels of unfitness.

We can probably argue all day about how one scheme is worse than the other. It's a fact that there is bad in both, from the divers who do the absolute minimum and manage to pass, to those who have to endure months of training to do something that they've already met standards for.

[JamesW]

Don't forget to be a to teach commercially, a Padi instructor in the UK needs to pass an HSE medical which would rule out a lot of BSAC divers I see. DDRC should be doing some reseach in to the effects of DCS vs extreme levels of unfitness.

We can probably argue all day about how one scheme is worse than the other. It's a fact that there is bad in both, from the divers who do the absolute minimum and manage to pass, to those who have to endure months of training to do something that they've already met standards for.

Any instructor who teaches commercially needs a HSE medical under the 1997 ACOP.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Any instructor who teaches commercially needs a HSE medical under the 1997 ACOP.

Indeed. Mine covers me for the commercial BSAC i teach. HSE medical is THAT bad anyway - it simply ensures a minimum standard of fitness - that standard isn't exactly high. You certainly dont need to be any more than average to pass.

Although yes i do see a LOT of people out there who to my untrained eye dont look medically fit to be diving.

Main thing id like to see brought back is the medical for diving. Come across no end of people that blatantly lie on the self-cert form.

[one_tc]

Any instructor who teaches commercially needs a HSE medical under the 1997 ACOP.

True, but generally all Padi instructors are commercial, and most BSAC instructor aren't. Therefore making it harder to teach. Without wanting to start a thread "are all HSE medicals equal", as Richard mentioned it's not that hard (if you are in good health), but I know of a few people that wouldn't pass.

[Tony Dwyer]

True, but generally all Padi instructors are commercial, and most BSAC instructor aren't. Therefore making it harder to teach. Without wanting to start a thread "are all HSE medicals equal", as Richard mentioned it's not that hard (if you are in good health), but I know of a few people that wouldn't pass.

When I did my PADI IE, we had a Doctor come along to give all those that passed the exam, a HSE medical.

There was one guy who was obviously a body builder. He looked as though he could crush walnuts with his abs. He appeared to be in really good condition.

He failed the exam. I don't know the reason.

Just goes to show, appearances can be misleading.

[bakerstreet]

And all of them a doddle if you read a bit. :)

I would expect an experenced Dive Leader to be at least equivalent to a DM in diving skills. The theory is just a matter of a little study to get into the PADI mind set.

So they are not the same then. At least that is how I read it. I have passed my DL exam recently and a TIE and I'd be interested to see if I could sit down and pass all 5/8 exams.

Not trying to start an aregument here, especially as you were the first person to welcome me to the forum :)

The fact that I owned all the gear I was using was another source of amazement.

This goes without saying. I expect any instructor or DM to own their own gear and for it to look presentable. However there have been discussions about that before.

My PADI OWI exam was an intense two days, but not really hard. I found it straitforward. Preparation, Practise + Confidence = Easy Pass.
The in water basic skills assessment was really easy. ANY experienced diver should be able to blitz it. Strange that a number of entrants failed the basic skills that weekend. That would have been an expensive waste of time for them.

My BSAC OWI was much the same, but a tad more anxious. Why? Because I was beinig judged by peers that I really respected rather than an American I'd never met before.

Much the same? I dont like examinations and suffer with nerves, so it wouldn't make any difference if it was my chairman or a complete stranger standing there.

Your findings of people failing the basic skills on courses like that isn't unheard of. There are some Tech courses who dont let people start things like Trimix courses because they can't do the very basics. All a bit wrong really.

I'd be interested to know what the practical course/examination consists of if it takes 2 days. The BSAC OWI doesn't go through basic skills in an examinted way as far as I'm aware. Obvioulsy the instructor does his demo, but he/she isn't then assessed on other skills (I think)

[Odin]

instructor in the UK needs to pass an HSE medical which would rule out a lot of BSAC divers I see.
and an equal amount of PADI divers.

You are making a one sided statement.

[one_tc]

Fair comment, let me rephrase that.

I know of a few BSAC instructors that I doubt would pass an HSE medical.

(And absolutely no way would they pass the Divemaster fitness test).

[Odin]

I know of a few PADI instructors that I doubt should pass an HSE medical.

(And absolutely no way would they pass the A test).

[one_tc]

As previously said BSAC Divers have advantage in their rescue skills, and it would be nice to see anyone crossover to a BSAC instructor demonstrate these to at least DL level.

[one_tc]

Then you should report them to the HSE

So I hope you can still pass the A test in your next pool session.

[Steve in Sharm]

He is on about a BSAC DL passing the PADI DM exams. As BSAC doesn't mention a thing about compartment models, M-values, half times or anything of the sort then no way would a "properly trained BSAC DL" be able to pass the exam "without study" which was the original claim.
Whether you think its relevant or not it IS needed to pass the divemaster exam. (although personally i dont think BSAC provided anywhere near enough information on decompression models and procedures for courses that allow mandatory deco but thats a different subject altogether)

Maybe your instructor! certainly not mine - and by the sounds of it neither was Matts...... I stand by statement of "a properly trained BSAC diver"...



Again fine - and its no different to PADI where people have to pass assessment criteria, again contrary to Steves claim about there being a difference.

LOL - BSAC even assess you on your de-briefing abilities, by this time PADI are handing out pass certs!!!


The same works both ways. FWIW i'd not disagree with a crossover instructor having to pass PIE or something similar. The systems are very different in terms of teaching style and procedures and going from one to the other without mentoring or assessment could cause issues.

Totally agreed - but in my world, the x over would be a lot, lot longer. Having seen the new PADI to BSAC x over Instrs in Sharm I am very dissapointed (no reflection on the standard of their instruction, more thier standard of their understanding of real diving as well as the 'BSAC way').


Its things like this i was countering - he gives the shocked impression you can be an instructor in PADI with as little as 100 dives. Whilst true i was simply pointing out you can be the same in BSAC with far less dives. That doesn't mean people should but the possibility is there in BOTH systems to produce low-dive number instructors.

Whilst using just numbers you are correct - as MattS points out, the BSAC system would soon weed out any potential instructors who did not have the relevant experience (see number of and variation of dives).


No. I started for years as BSAC, did PADI to allow me to teach abroad and do both. However some posts like Steves above certainly appear to be verging on PADI bashing. Both agencies have good points and both have their bad points in my view. There are many things both could do to improve. Im just sick of the usual standards arguments that appear (and in this thread) especially when they have no basis in fact.

Not PADI bashing at all, I agree PADI have their good points (why would I be a PADI MSDT if not?) a lot of my posts are pro PADI - just putting 'Baker Street' right.

Regards

[Steve in Sharm]

Not sure about that. someone one else has also said this. They have an entire exam based on physics, where as the DL may have 5 or 8 questions in one exam.

Well I am, as a PADI MSDT who is soon to do his Staff Instructor course...

and as for 'an entire exam' - please....... its just ten questions!!!

[Richard Whitcombe]

Maybe your instructor! certainly not mine - and by the sounds of it neither was Matts...... I stand by statement of "a properly trained BSAC diver"...

Look at the core syllabus about what HAS to be taught. You'll find all of that missing. No point adding what people may read on their own or get added as that doesnt matter and would apply equally to both. I'm struggling to think of a single bsac DL i can think of who hasnt done further courses elsewhere that could explain to me M values or compartments. It just isnt taught- without that you cannot pass that exam on the DM syllabus.




LOL - BSAC even assess you on your de-briefing abilities, by this time PADI are handing out pass certs!!!


Which isn't actually true at all.



Whilst using just numbers you are correct - as MattS points out, the BSAC system would soon weed out any potential instructors who did not have the relevant experience (see number of and variation of dives).

Why would it? You can have all the experience dives done easily in 40-50 maximum from starting to dive. There are no other things in place to prevent that. Other than the experience dives requires to get as far as DL nothing else is needed. Certainly under 100 dives for that.

[garethwoodruff]

I have seen good PADI and good BSAC instructors........

The crossover does seem straightforward, however BSAC will have looked at whats involved in becomeing an instructor with other organisationas and deem them an equivalent standard. Doing the IFC is about learning about the BSAC way of doing things which is slightly different.

A PADI instructor does not have to have a HSE medical, they can learn abroad, then come to the UK with their qualification and cross over to BSAC as an OWI.

Whats the point in comparing the 2, both systems work, this idea that ones more difficult than the other is just pointless. I have respect for an instructor in both organisations.

Cheers,

Gareth.

[Odin]

Then you should report them to the HSE
I will.
So I hope you can still pass the A test in your next pool session.
I can - and also complete the B test in the same evening.

I just get p*ssed off with the "BSAC instructors and divers are unfit bashing"

Paul, 51 year old BS-AC INSTRUCTOR

[Mike Halligan]

I just get p*ssed off with the "BSAC instructors and divers are unfit bashing"



Don't waste your emotions on that. Save the time for some worthless but gratifying pursuit.

If these cretins work by assumption from no more than appearance, then they are incredibly shallow and their opinions unworthy of mature consideration. :cool:

[Tony Dwyer]

I'd be interested to know what the practical course/examination consists of if it takes 2 days. The BSAC OWI doesn't go through basic skills in an examinted way as far as I'm aware. Obvioulsy the instructor does his demo, but he/she isn't then assessed on other skills (I think)

It's been a while since I did it and I confess to not being up to date with PADI stuff as I did not renew for 2008 and won't be for 2009 either. Perhaps one of the more up to date PADI instructors here may elaborate.

When I did it.

Day 1. At Rugby School

Theory exam - include PADI standards, which is an 'open book' exam. Sudden death - fail this and the weekend is over (some did).
In water basic skills assesment (in the swimming pool)
800 mtr timed snorkel swim
Lecture assessment

Day 2. At Stoney Cold (November)

Arrive before dawn for days briefing
Two open water lesson assesments - with specific skills assigned. Assesed on lesson content, management and control. Another candidate assists as a DM. I got to do the same for him.
Rescue assesment- Recover an injured diver from the middle of the lake. Starting from the shore, swimout to casualty, dekit and tow ashore while providing rescue breaths. Fall over and collapse afterwards.

It was physically demanding, but the content was easy if one had prepared.

There were a lot of candidates and it took the full two days to get through them all.

[Edward]

Hi,

When BSAC first introduced the current instructor crossover for instructors trained by other agencies I was a bit sceptical.

What does the BSAC Instructor Training Scheme actually teach and assess?

How to prepare, deliver and assess training both in the classroom and in-water (IMHO).

It follows therefore that if an instructor from another agency has been assessed in their ability to prepare, deliver and assess training both in the classroom and in-water then there is nothing to be gained in forcing them to undertake our instructor assessment.

From my experience the majority of instructors undertake the preparation for the lesson they are going to deliver. If the topic is new they will put in the time to ensure they can teach to the standard required. I have found this to be true for both BSAC and non-BSAC trained instructors. Yes, there are those who don’t put in the effort, but that has nothing to do with the original training agency as I’ve come across BSAC Advanced Instructors (whom qualified in the 80s) that haven’t.

So to the original OP, no I don’t think it is too easy.

The number of dives an individual undertakes prior to gaining their instructor ticket is, in my opinion, not that important. As someone who can’t, say, maintain buoyancy would not be able to show competence in teaching in-water.

Regards

Edward

[JimW]

...has nothing to do with the original training agency...

It might :rolleyes: help to have an analogy?
The writings of a certain Johnathan Swift actually covers this question in considerable detail!
Actually his analogy was a political commentary (so some say) of the socio-political wranglings of national governments at the time (but still valid today) but the cap probably fits here (and many other places just as well).

According to the good citizens in Gullivers Travels There can be only one way to open an egg!

wide end
narrow end
Gullivers suggestion of "why not in the middle" was met with righteous indignation (from both sides)
I bet my suggestion of lengthways would warrant indignation from Gulliver AND Swift too! :eek: :D


The important thing is the end result is the same - in our case to train safe and competent divers.
How you arrive at it may well vary according to your own founding beliefs and fundamental approaches.

Jim:cool:
There are many ways to skin a cat (but they all taste the same with Vindaloo sauce!):rolleyes:

However, there IS ONLY ONE WAY to eat an Elephant (http://www.bsac.org/page/992/day-one-sweeney-time.htm)

[Tony Dwyer]

It might :rolleyes: help to have an analogy?
The writings of a certain Johnathan Swift actually covers this question in considerable detail!
Actually his analogy was a political commentary (so some say) of the socio-political wranglings of national governments at the time (but still valid today) but the cap probably fits here (and many other places just as well).

According to the good citizens in Gullivers Travels There can be only one way to open an egg!

wide end
narrow end
Gullivers suggestion of "why not in the middle" was met with righteous indignation (from both sides)
I bet my suggestion of lengthways would warrant indignation from Gulliver AND Swift too! :eek: :D


The important thing is the end result is the same - in our case to train safe and competent divers.
How you arrive at it may well vary according to your own founding beliefs and fundamental approaches.

Jim:cool:
There are many ways to skin a cat (but they all taste the same with Vindaloo sauce!):rolleyes:

However, there IS ONLY ONE WAY to eat an Elephant (http://www.bsac.org/page/992/day-one-sweeney-time.htm)

You could also poke a small hole in either end (or the middle) and either suck or blow the contents out, again from either end.
Then of course if you really want to obtuse, you could simply smash it with a hammer.

Just goes to show, someone somewhere will be able to thnk of doing almost anything in a different way to accepted practice. But then, I'm a heretic. :)

[Tony Dwyer]

It might :rolleyes: help to have an analogy?
The writings of a certain Johnathan Swift actually covers this question in considerable detail!
Actually his analogy was a political commentary (so some say) of the socio-political wranglings of national governments at the time (but still valid today) but the cap probably fits here (and many other places just as well).

According to the good citizens in Gullivers Travels There can be only one way to open an egg!

wide end
narrow end
Gullivers suggestion of "why not in the middle" was met with righteous indignation (from both sides)
I bet my suggestion of lengthways would warrant indignation from Gulliver AND Swift too! :eek: :D


The important thing is the end result is the same - in our case to train safe and competent divers.
How you arrive at it may well vary according to your own founding beliefs and fundamental approaches.

Jim:cool:
There are many ways to skin a cat (but they all taste the same with Vindaloo sauce!):rolleyes:

However, there IS ONLY ONE WAY to eat an Elephant (http://www.bsac.org/page/992/day-one-sweeney-time.htm)

You could also poke a small hole in either end (or the middle) and either suck or blow the contents out, again from either end.
Then of course if you really want to obtuse, you could simply smash it with a hammer.

Just goes to show, someone somewhere will be able to thnk of doing almost anything in a different way to accepted practice. But then, I'm a heretic. :)

Bring on the Hounhyms and Yahoos.

[one_tc]

BSAC A test:
Swim 200m free style without stopping
Swim 100m backstroke without stopping
Swim 50m wearing 5kg weights
Float for 5 mins
Tread water for 1 minutes with hands over head
Recover 6 objects from deep end


PADI DM fitness
Swim 400m without stopping
Snorkel 800m without stopping
Float for 15 mins with hands out of water 2 minutes
Tired Diver tow 100m without stopping

So despite the fact the A test is long gone, the DM test is current and is timed with a minimum score.

True appearances can be deceiving, but the fact remains most Padi instructors in the UK have passed a formal medical, where as most BSAC instructors haven't.

Don't get me wrong, BSAC is a great scheme, I'm just pointing out areas I think it's weak on (and strong on -see earlier posts) in this thread is it to easy to crossover.

[Richard Whitcombe]

PADI instructor IIRC just has an 800m snorkel.

There is a big problem with both the above- all it proves is the person met that fitness standard *at that time*. It says nothing about the shape they're in 1,2,5,10 years down the line.

[Odin]

I did also add the B test!

[bakerstreet]

PADI instructor IIRC just has an 800m snorkel.

There is a big problem with both the above- all it proves is the person met that fitness standard *at that time*. It says nothing about the shape they're in 1,2,5,10 years down the line.

It proves they can meet a certain standard of swimming. Not so sure about over all fitness.

The only reason I say this is because I am a reasonable swimmer (and swimming teacher) and a little bit of a session with the stop watch last night tells me that I could score 5 in most of those. I found the the scoring system on another site.

However, my overall fitness probably isn't that great.

Just goes to show, appearances can be misleading.

Yep. I am certainly not the trimest member in my dive club, but probably one of the quickest swimmers. Remember watching quite a large germain chap in Egypt a few years ago. Perfectly trimed in the water and a good swimmer, purely down to good technique.

[Richard Whitcombe]

I'll freely admit there isnt a chance in hell id pass the PADI swim test now if i had to repeat it. In fact since learning to dive i haven't swum once and now resemble some drowning animal as i drag myself through the water. Im a hell of a lot fitter now than i was then but the ability to swim has gone.

[one_tc]

The only reason I say this is because I am a reasonable swimmer (and swimming teacher) and a little bit of a session with the stop watch last night tells me that I could score 5 in most of those. I found the the scoring system on another site.



lol,

I'm not in great shape, but I timed a bit of my run to the bus stop, and from that I think I could win a gold medal for the 1500m in 2012.

[one_tc]

When I did my PADI IE, we had a Doctor come along to give all those that passed the exam, a HSE medical.

There was one guy who was obviously a body builder. He looked as though he could crush walnuts with his abs. He appeared to be in really good condition.

He failed the exam. I don't know the reason.

Just goes to show, appearances can be misleading.


Good point, assuming that guy had started at OW and went on through the levels to Divemaster, he considered himself fit (or lied) and completed at least three self certification medicals, plus one self certification additionally signed by his doctor for DM, and a HSE medical ruled him out.

Sounds like even more of a point for getting a medical to me.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Simply being strong doesn't necessarily mean fit. Diving generally is going to be more of an aerobic/cardio stressing event as opposed to the ability to bend steel bars with your hands.

The HSE medical does (albeit very very basically) measure things such as exercise pulse, peak flow, lung capacity etc (i dont think it does VO2 Max) which are more related to the type of fitness needed to dive.

[Tony Dwyer]

Good point, assuming that guy had started at OW and went on through the levels to Divemaster, he considered himself fit (or lied) and completed at least three self certification medicals, plus one self certification additionally signed by his doctor for DM, and a HSE medical ruled him out.

Sounds like even more of a point for getting a medical to me.

It doesn't suggest that he lied or that his self cert was iffy. It merely says that he failed the HSE medical. Which has elements that a general sports divng medical would not have. It's very likely that he could have passed one of them. Or these days just self certify to go diving. I've no doubt that the poor guy probably thought he'd breeze the medical.

It's a tad moot anyhow, as we don't know the reason for his failure. He did do the 800 mtr snorkel with no difficulty. :(