Training in the sea?

[ron.evans]

One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.

At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.

What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).

Ron

[Steve Pearson]

One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.

At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.

What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).

Ron

Hi Ron

Hope you're keeping well. I do not feel that a sea dive should be obligatory for the OD grade, as a qualified OD can only dive with a dive leader or above even when qualified and will be able to gain experience of sea diving as a pre requisite for gaining their Sports Diver Qual. It is valuable for them to become familiar with their kit and its operation in a relatively secure environment such as a quarry, but does not mean that they shouldn't experience the sea if a dive is available for them and their instructor feels they are confident enough to do it.

That's just my feelings but I'm sure other people may have different views.

Steve

[David Walker]

What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade

At Ocean Diver level, giving sea experience would be logistically difficult, and in my opinion unnecessary. There are a few options for sea diving - shore diving, which is difficult in many locations, and generally is quite sheltered anyway so potentially not getting much advantage from quarry training other than a couple of waves and different weighting. Not all clubs have RIBs, so rule that out. Using charters would be expensive and difficult to deal with all the potential problems from - other divers on the boat might be quite upset when they're paying maybe ?20 per dive to be taken to a 10m dive site with a flat bottom, and find they are hanging around for hours on end while 10 trainees are working out how to kit up, going through briefings, getting in, sorting weight problems, etc. Just not a good idea...

Beyond that, once they are sorted with their own diving, then moving to the sea is a good experience. I *believe* that somewhere in the post-Ocean Diver / pre-Sports Diver bits it mentions something about experience in the relevant conditions in which they will subsequently be diving, which for many might mean the sea.

Do whatever training you feel is necessary - don't drag training out by 6 months as you wait for the weather to get out to do one dive in the sea (many of us train in the winter). Some instructors may be much less willing to do training in the summer as they want to get some good diving in themselves, in which case training (particularly at beginner level) is relegated to the winter, and therefore most likely quarries. As long as these trainees subsequently go on to do their first sea diving with a DL/instructor then that should be fine (and technically they have to anyway, because of the "extending experience with an instructor" thing).

In essence though, don't worry about training in quarries - its all water, just with a few more waves, a bit of a current, and more fish!

David

[richard2338]

At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea.

Not specifically, however a trainee Ocean Diver must carry out dives which include a minimum of four of the following conditions...
1. Shelving shore dive (yes, can be inland/fresh water)
2. Steep shore dive (yes, inland)
3. Low visibility 2 - 4m range (yes, inland)
4. Drift dive (at sea, unless you wanna try a river!?)
5. Small boat (at sea, unless you have a very friendly reservoir owner!)
6. Large boat (at sea)
7. Wall dive (probably at sea)
8. Dive in protective clothing (any dive in the UK!)

Yes, an Ocean Diver can gain the sufficient range of experience by doing conditions 1,2,3 and 8 in fresh water sites only.
But remember, this is a minimum. Theres nothing to prevent trainees gaining experience with a wider range of conditions whilst completing their O.O. lessons, and thats not adding to the BSAC syllabus.

The Instructor Manual also says that the range of conditions in which they train should be "appropriate to the local conditions in which they will subsequently be diving".
So if you sign up your Ocean Diver after they have only completed fresh water dives, remember they MUST dive with a Dive Leader when they subsequently go in the sea. So why not incorporate a O.O. lesson with that first, inevitable sea experience dive with the Dive Leader and save time? (Assuming your D.L. is also an instructor)

[TerryH]

One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.

At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.

What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).

Ron

Nope. There is absoluteley nothing wrong with a quarry
trained Ocean Diver in the same way that there is nothing
wrong with a warm-water trained Ocean Diver.

It is after all just a basic level. As long as the new OD
and his/her Instructor/buddy is aware that they are not sea
trained and need to be monitored accordingly, where is the
problem?

TerryH

[Nigel Hewitt]

Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade

As an aside I try to do much of my training inland. I suffer from sea-sickness a bit and most of my tricks to get from the dock into the water don't match most instructor's ideas of a training dive. If I'm learning new skills, reviewing kit changes or just refreshing for a new year I'd prefer to walk from the car to flat water.

With an ocean diver trainee with the same problem I would be happy to teach my seasickness avoidance SDC once the rest of the training is done so we can buddy check and go.

[Gary Cameron]

One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.

At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.

What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).

Ron

I dont know how there is an assumption that someone who is trained in a quarry wont do proper diving.

I personally think that training people in a quarry prior to actually sea diving is preferable. Our club trys to get folk trained in the winter months so that they hit the sea running so to speak.

This means that we can get OD done in a couple of months or so, such that trainees can actually dive in the sea albeit with a DL or INST.

If you insisted in Sea Training then BSAC in the UK would come to a severe halt.

Gary

[beufighter]

One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.

At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.

What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).

Ron


NO! Is it still true that one can become an'Instructor'elsewere without going in the Sea?

[Ian Wigg]

"...as a qualified OD can only dive with a dive leader or above even when qualified..." ?

Not true, an OD can dive with another OD as long as it's within their existing experience.

[Andy Nye]

Not all clubs have RIBs, so rule that out. Using charters would be expensive and difficult to deal with all the potential problems from - other divers on the boat might be quite upset when they're paying maybe ?20 per dive to be taken to a 10m dive site with a flat bottom, and find they are hanging around for hours on end while 10 trainees are working out how to kit up, going through briefings, getting in, sorting weight problems, etc. Just not a good idea...

*** Not really true , Dave... I have my CLUB dive shallow sand beds, and it costs them ? 5 or ? 7.50 each and get hot drinks etc etc as per my normal charter service.
Other clubs i take out to do simple training/ sea familization/ diving from hard boats trips to a shallow bay either side of Dover harbour, as well as some PADI schools doing training at full charter rates.
5 trainee divers with 5 instructors paying ? 50 in total = boxes of t bags, sugar and tin of coffee for the month, just for the sake of a hours time after work one evening a week.
PLUS we sometimes throw in a exercise of some sort ie. a bent diver or a first aid example..... some even get the chance to exercise with the local lifeboat..
But i fully understand what your saying. ****

Personally , i'm seeing lots of divers that have been PUDDLE JUMPING, and when it comes to the sea on thier first shallow wreck dive , there are weight problems - fastish ascents , cold and sea sick and basically putting them off sea diving.

ANdy

[chris bone]

"...as a qualified OD can only dive with a dive leader or above even when qualified..." ?

Not true, an OD can dive with another OD as long as it's within their existing experience.

And with the DO's consent i belive

[Allan J Bretherton]

One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.

At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.

What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).

Ron

Ron,

It?s difficult to be prescriptive as we have different conditions in different areas. Training OD?s in the UK in the sea in winter could be challenging. Far better to train inland with a degree of control then let them enjoy the sea in the summer. Conversely, in other areas such as Cyprus where we have a large number of military members most if not all of the training is done in the sea hence the reasons for the use of sheltered water and open water rather than pool and sea.

We also need to consider progression; as the grades progress so does the need to get to the sea. The following is extracted from the diver training manual

Ocean Diver

Open water diving should encompass experience of at least four of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.25-0.5kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.

Sports Diver

Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , dive using a shot line, low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.5-1.0kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.

Dive Leader

Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: planned decompression dive, navigation dive, low (1.5-3m) visibility dive, night dive, wreck dive, drift (1-1.5kn) dive, wall dive. Of the 20 dives, at least six should be from boats, on at least eight the student should act as dive leader, and at least ten dives should be to greater than 25m depth. The student should also act as Dive Marshall on at least two occasions additional to the dry practical lessons

Advance Diver

Open water diving should encompass each of the following, each on at least three occasion: planned two stop decompression dive, drift dive, dive in tidal waters. In addition a further six dives should include at least three of the following: navigation dive, night dive, low (>2m) visibility dive, wreck dive, wall dive.

Of the 20 dives at least 10 should be carried out from boats, on at least 10 the student should act as dive leader and at least six dives should show experience of depths greater than 30m. On at least five occasions, including at both known and unfamiliar sites, the student should act as Dive Marshal.
Whilst it is possible to qualify as an OD without venturing to the coast, this becomes more challenging as the grades progress and I would go as far as to say it is practically impossible to qualify as DL or AD without going to the sea.

The days of DL?s and AD?s (and therefore instructors) that have only dived in Stoney or Dost Hill are well behind us. This was a major consideration when we wrote the new diver training programme.

Cheers??..Allan

[Steve Pearson]

:= "...as a qualified OD can only dive with a dive leader or above even when qualified..." ?
:=
:=Not true, an OD can dive with another OD as long as it's within their existing experience.

And with the DO's consent i belive

You're both partly right, its actually that two OD's can dive to a maximum of 20m under the supervision of a Dive Marshal, but thank you for correcting my error, however I would not personally put two OD's together if it were possible to pair them with someone of a higher qualification & experience.

[matts]

however I would not personally put two OD's together if it were possible to pair them with someone of a higher qualification & experience.

Just wondering
1. Two ODs going on holiday for a week diving alongsied PADI OW divers in the Red Sea?
2. Two ODs in a highly controlled 6m training lake?
3. Two ODs at Stoney cove?
4. Two ODs on a shallow UK wreck or drift?

Do you have a problem with any of those?


Personally I was happy with DOs approval and don't know why it needed to be complicated with a Dive Marshal. Not only does the OD course take longer than PADI OW, it is more complicated to go diving once the OD qualification is obtained. OD crossover is a little unattractive when you tell your PADI OW or AOW they need a marshal to attend - to do what they have probably done before.

And no, I don't think OD should require sea diving.

Just a thought or two.

[matts]

*** Not really true , Dave... I have my CLUB dive shallow sand beds, and it costs them ? 5 or ? 7.50 each and get hot drinks etc etc as per my normal charter service.

Well done Andy, I think you are one of the few.

I was mentioning it the other day. We used to do a lot of drifts and shallow stuff, but as charter prices increased the willingness decreased and perhaps so have diver standards. I am not saying that is the skipper's fault, I don't know any rich ones, just a sign of the times.

Personally , i'm seeing lots of divers that have been PUDDLE JUMPING, and when it comes to the sea on thier first shallow wreck dive , there are weight problems - fastish ascents , cold and sea sick and basically putting them off sea diving.

It's not just the ODs though is it?

[David Walker]

*** Not really true , Dave... I have my CLUB dive shallow sand beds, and it costs them ? 5 or ? 7.50 each and get hot drinks etc etc as per my normal charter service.
Other clubs i take out to do simple training/ sea familization/ diving from hard boats trips to a shallow bay either side of Dover harbour, as well as some PADI schools doing training at full charter rates.
5 trainee divers with 5 instructors paying ? 50 in total = boxes of t bags, sugar and tin of coffee for the month, just for the sake of a hours time after work one evening a week.
PLUS we sometimes throw in a exercise of some sort ie. a bent diver or a first aid example..... some even get the chance to exercise with the local lifeboat..
But i fully understand what your saying. ****


Just unfortunately I don't think all charters would do that for just ?5 or whatever. As soon as you go much over that then for BSAC courses at least it is a significant cost increase - if we were doing it at full cost that'd end up something like ?20-?30 extra per trainee per dive (paying for their own plus a share of the instuctor's cost).
Very good to hear that you help clubs with things like that though - I suppose others might if we found one and asked really nicely, although we have the added problem that Stoney's 30mins drive away, while any bit of coastline is at least 4 hours away :o(

Good that it is working for some though! :O)

David

[tsdiver]

however I would not personally put two OD's together if it were possible to pair them with someone of a higher qualification & experience.


There comes a time in every OD's learning curve where it would actually be the right time to put two OD's together, especially in shelterd water ie inland dive site.Experience has got to start somwhere along the way ? Iv'e seen good OD's held back for far to long.Ok, get them to run their dive plan by you and time it right. Take a look at the smile on their faces after the dive,very rewarding and it may gain you some cred !

[beufighter]

:=One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.
:=
:=At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.
:=
:=What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).
:=
:=Ron

Ron,

It?s difficult to be prescriptive as we have different conditions in different areas. Training OD?s in the UK in the sea in winter could be challenging. Far better to train inland with a degree of control then let them enjoy the sea in the summer. Conversely, in other areas such as Cyprus where we have a large number of military members most if not all of the training is done in the sea hence the reasons for the use of sheltered water and open water rather than pool and sea.

We also need to consider progression; as the grades progress so does the need to get to the sea. The following is extracted from the diver training manual

Ocean Diver

Open water diving should encompass experience of at least four of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.25-0.5kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.

Sports Diver

Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , dive using a shot line, low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.5-1.0kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.

Dive Leader

Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: planned decompression dive, navigation dive, low (1.5-3m) visibility dive, night dive, wreck dive, drift (1-1.5kn) dive, wall dive. Of the 20 dives, at least six should be from boats, on at least eight the student should act as dive leader, and at least ten dives should be to greater than 25m depth. The student should also act as Dive Marshall on at least two occasions additional to the dry practical lessons

Advance Diver

Open water diving should encompass each of the following, each on at least three occasion: planned two stop decompression dive, drift dive, dive in tidal waters. In addition a further six dives should include at least three of the following: navigation dive, night dive, low (>2m) visibility dive, wreck dive, wall dive.

Of the 20 dives at least 10 should be carried out from boats, on at least 10 the student should act as dive leader and at least six dives should show experience of depths greater than 30m. On at least five occasions, including at both known and unfamiliar sites, the student should act as Dive Marshal.
Whilst it is possible to qualify as an OD without venturing to the coast, this becomes more challenging as the grades progress and I would go as far as to say it is practically impossible to qualify as DL or AD without going to the sea.

The days of DL?s and AD?s (and therefore instructors) that have only dived in Stoney or Dost Hill are well behind us. This was a major consideration when we wrote the new diver training programme.

Cheers??..Allan

Greetings to Cyprus? by 'we' do you mean 107 or 120? or JSATC That has always been so within BSAC. I did of course mean in other training schemes.

Alan
Ex DO 107
DIVE 107

[Allan J Bretherton]

:=:=One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.
:=:=
:=:=At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.
:=:=
:=:=What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).
:=:=
:=:=Ron
:=
:=Ron,
:=
:=It?s difficult to be prescriptive as we have different conditions in different areas. Training OD?s in the UK in the sea in winter could be challenging. Far better to train inland with a degree of control then let them enjoy the sea in the summer. Conversely, in other areas such as Cyprus where we have a large number of military members most if not all of the training is done in the sea hence the reasons for the use of sheltered water and open water rather than pool and sea.
:=
:=We also need to consider progression; as the grades progress so does the need to get to the sea. The following is extracted from the diver training manual
:=
:=Ocean Diver
:=
:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least four of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.25-0.5kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.
:=
:=Sports Diver
:=
:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , dive using a shot line, low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.5-1.0kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.
:=
:=Dive Leader
:=
:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: planned decompression dive, navigation dive, low (1.5-3m) visibility dive, night dive, wreck dive, drift (1-1.5kn) dive, wall dive. Of the 20 dives, at least six should be from boats, on at least eight the student should act as dive leader, and at least ten dives should be to greater than 25m depth. The student should also act as Dive Marshall on at least two occasions additional to the dry practical lessons
:=
:=Advance Diver
:=
:=Open water diving should encompass each of the following, each on at least three occasion: planned two stop decompression dive, drift dive, dive in tidal waters. In addition a further six dives should include at least three of the following: navigation dive, night dive, low (>2m) visibility dive, wreck dive, wall dive.
:=
:=Of the 20 dives at least 10 should be carried out from boats, on at least 10 the student should act as dive leader and at least six dives should show experience of depths greater than 30m. On at least five occasions, including at both known and unfamiliar sites, the student should act as Dive Marshal.
:=Whilst it is possible to qualify as an OD without venturing to the coast, this becomes more challenging as the grades progress and I would go as far as to say it is practically impossible to qualify as DL or AD without going to the sea.
:=
:=The days of DL?s and AD?s (and therefore instructors) that have only dived in Stoney or Dost Hill are well behind us. This was a major consideration when we wrote the new diver training programme.
:=
:=Cheers??..Allan

Greetings to Cyprus? by 'we' do you mean 107 or 120? or JSATC That has always been so within BSAC. I did of course mean in other training schemes.

Alan
Ex DO 107
DIVE 107

Hi Alan,

By "we" I mean BSAC but most of my diving in Cyprus has been with CJSATC and bloody good it was as well!

Cheers......Allan

[Steve Pearson]

:=however I would not personally put two OD's together if it were possible to pair them with someone of a higher qualification & experience.

Just wondering
1. Two ODs going on holiday for a week diving alongsied PADI OW divers in the Red Sea?
If the dive school they are doing it with will allow it then it's at their own risk, however the instructor manual says that they are competent to conduct dives with another OD or SD within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during their training... I doubt they would have experienced the Red Sea during training

2. Two ODs in a highly controlled 6m training lake?
Yes if 6m was the maximum depth

3. Two ODs at Stoney cove?
Under the supervision of a Dive Marshal

4. Two ODs on a shallow UK wreck or drift?
Under the supervision of a Dive Marshal

Do you have a problem with any of those?

I suggest you refresh yourself with what an OD can or can't do as I have done, and ask yourself the question who carries the can when something goes wrong, both morally and legally.

Why not encourage OD's to become SD's then it isn't an issue, and encourage them to gain experience diving with higher qualified and experienced divers. An OD is at the bottom rung of a fairly long ladder. There is no substitute for training and experience and anyone who thinks that just because they have learnt the basics of diving they can do anything is a fool. We are all learning all the time, and the higher up the ladder you go the more you realise how little you actually knew when you were at the bottom although you didn't realise it at the time.

Personally I was happy with DOs approval and don't know why it needed to be complicated with a Dive Marshal. Not only does the OD course take longer than PADI OW, it is more complicated to go diving once the OD qualification is obtained. OD crossover is a little unattractive when you tell your PADI OW or AOW they need a marshal to attend - to do what they have probably done before.

And no, I don't think OD should require sea diving.

Just a thought or two.

[Steve Pearson]

however I would not personally put two OD's together if it were possible to pair them with someone of a higher qualification & experience.


There comes a time in every OD's learning curve where it would actually be the right time to put two OD's together, especially in shelterd water ie inland dive site.Experience has got to start somwhere along the way ? Iv'e seen good OD's held back for far to long.Ok, get them to run their dive plan by you and time it right. Take a look at the smile on their faces after the dive,very rewarding and it may gain you some cred !

I didn't say I wouldn't allow them to dive together, only that if it were possible to pair them with someone more eperienced I would do so as that experience can be passed on to further enhance the OD's diving ability and knowledge.

They shouldn't be held back, but encouraged to progress. Get them onto SD training, get them diving with more experienced divers if they are always diving within the limits of what they have been taught they will never move on. Teach them at a higher level and they will be better at the lower level diving.

[matts]

:=Just wondering
:=1. Two ODs going on holiday for a week diving alongsied PADI OW divers in the Red Sea?
If the dive school they are doing it with will allow it then it's at their own risk,

We all dive 'At our own risk', whether we are Ocean Divers or First Class divers. Surely, that's why we undertake diving courses, to understand the risks and equip ourselves to deal with them. The question really, 'Has an OD recieved sufficient training to understand the risks of a Red Sea diving Holiday?' It appears PADI think their OW divers have sufficient understanding and I don't think BSAC ODs are in any way inferior and I don't agree with treating them as such.

however the instructor manual says that they are competent to conduct dives with another OD or SD within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during their training... I doubt they would have experienced the Red Sea during training

But they probably have experienced warm clear water in the swimming pool and quite possibly currents during OD training or the experience dives thereafter. The DO shyould be able to advise ODs of the suitability of their training to a particular holiday destination.

:=2. Two ODs in a highly controlled 6m training lake?
Yes if 6m was the maximum depth

But thanks to the wording in the SDPs and BOH, one highly controlled 6m training lake does not allow it.

:=3. Two ODs at Stoney cove?
Under the supervision of a Dive Marshal
:=4. Two ODs on a shallow UK wreck or drift?
:=Under the supervision of a Dive Marshal

So if no marshal is available you think they should be prevented from diving? If they are qualified divers they should be capable of making their own decisions. If they can not do that, why have we given them a card? Insisting that the DO is approached for comment regarding suitability of a dive is sensible guidance. Preventing qualified ODs from diving outside a branch outing is just beaurocratic nannying IMVHO.

:=Do you have a problem with any of those?
:=
I suggest you refresh yourself with what an OD can or can't do as I have done,

What have I misunderstood? Please correct me rather than just telling me I have it wrong.

and ask yourself the question who carries the can when something goes wrong,

The person injured.

both morally and legally.

Legally it depends what BSAC (we) write in the SDPs and BOH to a large extent. If we specify it is wrong, legally it probably is wrong.

Morally...Club Diver / Ocean Diver was supposed to be a diving qualification - that is produce trained divers that are capable of diving with similarly or higher qualified buddies in limited situations, without supervision. This was the reasoning for requiring a significantly more teaching than the old NoviceI/II required. DOs approval provided a practical sanity check.

Why not encourage OD's to become SD's then it isn't an issue,

Absolutely. However, if SD is the minimum level of training we will accept of a 'diver', there should not be an OD qualification. From a practical perspective, recently qualified SDs overstepping their personal limits are a far greater problem than relatively conservative ODs.

and encourage them to gain experience diving with higher qualified and experienced divers.

Which they might do a geat deal easier without having to wait around for the moons to align for a full branch outing.

An OD is at the bottom rung of a fairly long ladder.

Yes, and the first rung keeps getting raised by those higher up - uncomfortable with the fact those below us are not as able.

There is no substitute for training and experience and anyone who thinks that just because they have learnt the basics of diving they can do anything is a fool.

Agreed, that would be foolish. However, to benefit from continual practise, you have to actually be allowed to practise. The more regulation and restriction we place on how people go diving, the harder it becomes for them to accquire the very experience they need.

We are all learning all the time, and the higher up the ladder you go the more you realise how little you actually knew when you were at the bottom although you didn't realise it at the time.

Does that justify making it more difficult for those below? I don't think it does. Personally I don't think SDs should be making decompression stops, but a lot of SDs would disagree with me. Certainly there are more SDs having rapid ascents and ending up in the pot, than ODs getting into difficutly according to the incident reports.

The only way to make diving 'Safe' is to not allow it at all. If we allow it, we have to accept that people will ocassionally make mistakes and some will unfortunately hurt themselves, despite our best intentions. BSAC branches are in a very good position to help guide divers. But we should be telling people what the dangers are and how they can be addressed so they can 'go diving', not telling them all the reasons why it is far too dangerous.

Now here is the thing. I qualified through the NoviceI/II system. After 8 pool lessons and two OW dives I was permitted to dive with DLs etc in limited conditions with the DOs approval. I did this a lot while the branch got around to organising SD lessons. I did not mind waiting for the lessons because it did not prevent me from diving.

Look at the situation for divers joining BSAC today. They spend 8 weeks in the pool. A further 5 Open Water lessons, which must be delivered by a much smaller pool of qualififed instructors...and we still don't trust DOs and ODs to get on with it. Personally if I came through todays system I would have given up and gone PADI well before I qualififed as a SD. If I were a PADI trained diver looking for a club to increase my diving opportunity, I doubt I would join one who's first action is to reduce or complicate my diving.

The message these days is that there is nothing wrong with PADI training and divers. Well I would like to suggest there is nothing wrong with BSAC training and divers either.

[beufighter]

:=:=:=One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Ron
:=:=
:=:=Ron,
:=:=
:=:=It?s difficult to be prescriptive as we have different conditions in different areas. Training OD?s in the UK in the sea in winter could be challenging. Far better to train inland with a degree of control then let them enjoy the sea in the summer. Conversely, in other areas such as Cyprus where we have a large number of military members most if not all of the training is done in the sea hence the reasons for the use of sheltered water and open water rather than pool and sea.
:=:=
:=:=We also need to consider progression; as the grades progress so does the need to get to the sea. The following is extracted from the diver training manual
:=:=
:=:=Ocean Diver
:=:=
:=:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least four of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.25-0.5kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.
:=:=
:=:=Sports Diver
:=:=
:=:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , dive using a shot line, low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.5-1.0kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.
:=:=
:=:=Dive Leader
:=:=
:=:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: planned decompression dive, navigation dive, low (1.5-3m) visibility dive, night dive, wreck dive, drift (1-1.5kn) dive, wall dive. Of the 20 dives, at least six should be from boats, on at least eight the student should act as dive leader, and at least ten dives should be to greater than 25m depth. The student should also act as Dive Marshall on at least two occasions additional to the dry practical lessons
:=:=
:=:=Advance Diver
:=:=
:=:=Open water diving should encompass each of the following, each on at least three occasion: planned two stop decompression dive, drift dive, dive in tidal waters. In addition a further six dives should include at least three of the following: navigation dive, night dive, low (>2m) visibility dive, wreck dive, wall dive.
:=:=
:=:=Of the 20 dives at least 10 should be carried out from boats, on at least 10 the student should act as dive leader and at least six dives should show experience of depths greater than 30m. On at least five occasions, including at both known and unfamiliar sites, the student should act as Dive Marshal.
:=:=Whilst it is possible to qualify as an OD without venturing to the coast, this becomes more challenging as the grades progress and I would go as far as to say it is practically impossible to qualify as DL or AD without going to the sea.
:=:=
:=:=The days of DL?s and AD?s (and therefore instructors) that have only dived in Stoney or Dost Hill are well behind us. This was a major consideration when we wrote the new diver training programme.
:=:=
:=:=Cheers??..Allan
:=
:=Greetings to Cyprus? by 'we' do you mean 107 or 120? or JSATC That has always been so within BSAC. I did of course mean in other training schemes.
:=
:=Alan
:=Ex DO 107
:=DIVE 107

Hi Alan,

By "we" I mean BSAC but most of my diving in Cyprus has been with CJSATC and bloody good it was as well!

Cheers......Allan

Oh the very thought of Jack Stay and swim line searches off Dhekalia Jetty brings tears to the eyes.

Alan

[Allan J Bretherton]

:=:=:=:=One of the sad diver types we might come across is the diver who has been trained in quarries, and who has had no subsequent time proper diving, by which I mean diving in the sea. It is possible to spend diving time visiting the many quarries in this country.
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=At present, the requirements for qualification in Ocean Diver training do not specify that the student should have been in the sea. As keen BSAC Instructors we know that nothing can be added or taken away from the syllabus and requirements from any grade.
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=What are people's views? Should sea diving be an obligatory required qualification for our basic grade, and how does that sit with the fact that bad weather may keep some of us out of the sea for many months of the year (we don't have access to a sheltered sea coast suitable for a junior trainee).
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=Ron
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Ron,
:=:=:=
:=:=:=It?s difficult to be prescriptive as we have different conditions in different areas. Training OD?s in the UK in the sea in winter could be challenging. Far better to train inland with a degree of control then let them enjoy the sea in the summer. Conversely, in other areas such as Cyprus where we have a large number of military members most if not all of the training is done in the sea hence the reasons for the use of sheltered water and open water rather than pool and sea.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=We also need to consider progression; as the grades progress so does the need to get to the sea. The following is extracted from the diver training manual
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Ocean Diver
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least four of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.25-0.5kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Sports Diver
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: shelving shore dive, steep shore dive , dive using a shot line, low (2-4m) visibility dive , drift (0.5-1.0kn) dive, small boat dive, large boat dive, wall dive, dive in protective clothing.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Dive Leader
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Open water diving should encompass experience of at least five of the following: planned decompression dive, navigation dive, low (1.5-3m) visibility dive, night dive, wreck dive, drift (1-1.5kn) dive, wall dive. Of the 20 dives, at least six should be from boats, on at least eight the student should act as dive leader, and at least ten dives should be to greater than 25m depth. The student should also act as Dive Marshall on at least two occasions additional to the dry practical lessons
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Advance Diver
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Open water diving should encompass each of the following, each on at least three occasion: planned two stop decompression dive, drift dive, dive in tidal waters. In addition a further six dives should include at least three of the following: navigation dive, night dive, low (>2m) visibility dive, wreck dive, wall dive.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Of the 20 dives at least 10 should be carried out from boats, on at least 10 the student should act as dive leader and at least six dives should show experience of depths greater than 30m. On at least five occasions, including at both known and unfamiliar sites, the student should act as Dive Marshal.
:=:=:=Whilst it is possible to qualify as an OD without venturing to the coast, this becomes more challenging as the grades progress and I would go as far as to say it is practically impossible to qualify as DL or AD without going to the sea.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=The days of DL?s and AD?s (and therefore instructors) that have only dived in Stoney or Dost Hill are well behind us. This was a major consideration when we wrote the new diver training programme.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Cheers??..Allan
:=:=
:=:=Greetings to Cyprus? by 'we' do you mean 107 or 120? or JSATC That has always been so within BSAC. I did of course mean in other training schemes.
:=:=
:=:=Alan
:=:=Ex DO 107
:=:=DIVE 107
:=
:=Hi Alan,
:=
:=By "we" I mean BSAC but most of my diving in Cyprus has been with CJSATC and bloody good it was as well!
:=
:=Cheers......Allan

Oh the very thought of Jack Stay and swim line searches off Dhekalia Jetty brings tears to the eyes.

Alan

Oh, and the thought of whiskey sours in Charlie?s bar afterwards