View Full Version : Boat handing requirements
MikeTickle
30-11-2008, 18:02
Does a boat dive need a cox'n or just boat handlers?
I'm about to sign up on a boat handling course so I can get the club RIB out more next year. The club I am in used to be a SAA club and under the SSA rules the RYA level 2 was all you needed to dive off the club rib. RYA level 2 equates in BSAC eyes to a boat handler. If a bunch of us form the club do the BSAC bost handler course are we OK to take the RIB out or do we need someone who has passed the cox'n course?
Mike
Mike,
Several points to your posting.
In the UK no one needs any qualifications to take a boat to sea :eek:
You may wish to check the insurance policy on the boat for restrictions on who can be 'in command' and what quals they might need.
The BSAC Boathandling course is just that, a course, there is a syllabus but people who attend the course will be developed as far as each can go in the time available. There is no assessment, so if you attend a BH Course as someone who has never been in an inflatable/rib you will not leave with skills at the same level as someone who has been 'playing in boats all their life'.
The BSAC Diver Cox'n certificate is a pass/fail assessment and all those who hold this certificate should;) be capable of managing your boat during normal diving operations.
RYA Level II is cited as an equivalent, does have an assessment but does not cover any aspects of diving support, ie deploying, covering and recovering your divers, whereas BSAC Diver Coxn does. I'm not sure there is too much about site location and transits either.
So, after all that, I suppose the summary is as follows:
Check the insurance
Diver Coxn better than just BH Course
RYA Level II sort of between the two
Hope this helps.
David.
BSAC Diver Coxn Assessor and RYA Advanced Certificate holder (So no bias :D )
P.S. Don't forget that you'll need at least two 'boat handlers/cox'ns' for when the first is diving. I had to 'rescue' a RIB once who's sole BH was diving and the untrained crew could not start their outboard to go and pick them up.....all that was stopping the motor from starting was that the engine was left in gear:rolleyes:
MikeTickle
30-11-2008, 19:37
P.S. Don't forget that you'll need at least two 'boat handlers/cox'ns' for when the first is diving. :rolleyes:
This is why the boat only had divers on it for 2 days last year - and on one of those days the cox'n did not get a dive in.
I'll check on the insurance and see where that leaves us.
Cheers
Mike
RYA level 2 equates in BSAC eyes to a boat handler.
Mike
sort of, or er well not really ....
When I taught boathandling a few years ago.
A RYA level II course equates to a BSAC boathanding course
RYA level II exam equates to diver coxn
Or rather on passing my diver coxn I got a RYA level II equivalence which I used for a euro competence certificate.
So i'd say " RYA level 2 equates in BSAC eyes to a boat handler." is misleading, or wrong depending on the facts ;-)
Its up to the RYA what they call equivalent, and I also have a feeling they pulled the equivalence (I have a piece of paper saying RYA II) a few years after did the coxn exam
Tony
This is why the boat only had divers on it for 2 days last year - and on one of those days the cox'n did not get a dive in.
I'll check on the insurance and see where that leaves us.
Cheers
Mike
The only real qualification that allows divers to take a dive boat out is Diver Coxswain. Normally the insurance companys will take the recommendation of the the the diving agency. And as far as I know BSAC recomend Diver Coxswain.
Boat Handling is a course and really only gives people an introduction.
RYAII teaches you little or nothing about deploying and picking up divers.
Diver Coxswain is a pretty good assessment.
Gary
MikeTickle
01-12-2008, 07:53
sort of, or er well not really ....
OK according to the document A.5 "ALTERNATIVE SKILL DEVELOPMENT COURSE TRAINING" the RYA Powerboat Level II is an acceptable alternative to Boat Handling SDC.
Mike
OK according to the document A.5 "ALTERNATIVE SKILL DEVELOPMENT COURSE TRAINING" the RYA Powerboat Level II is an acceptable alternative to Boat Handling SDC.
Mike
Mike
The significant difference with the courses provided by the diving orgainisations & the RYA, is that as well as the skills & theory related to operating a boat safely, the diving orgainisation add in, & practice, a lot of skills relating to deploying divers & recovering them from the water.
RYA do teach Man Overbaord drills & recovery. But as a general rule, they don't expect to be putting people into the water or recovering them from it, as such they don't emphasis these skills or practice them to the same degree.
The RYA technique for recovering people from the water is different to those generally taught for diver recovery. (In all honesty I can't remember which technique is 'preferred' for divers because I use both without being aware of it.)
I don't believe the BSAC insist on a diver cox'n being on the boat, mainly because a lot of branches don't have a diver cox'n.
The significant difference with diver cox'n is that it an exam. It is assessing not only practical boat handling competance, but planning, navigation & chartwork (& SOLAS).
The main issue would be that relating to the insurance requirements In addition there may be branch rules. The branch rules may well relate or have related to the insurance provisions, rather than just bloody mindedness.
If the insurance requirements do insist on a diver cox'n, then it may be possible to have the insurance ammended, at a cost!
In truth, I seldom use small boats, preferring hardboats. So there are probably more experienced users on the forum with far more practical experience than I.
Gareth
Hi Mike
I've just checked the wording of our club boat insurance (we use Westfield) and the requirement is for the person helming the boat to hold "a valid boat handling certificate authorised by BSAC, SAA, CFT, SSAC, PADI, RYA, or at least two years proven experience of handling a craft equal to that insured".
Our club holds a list of "approved boat handlers" to make it easier for DMs to see who is covered to drive the boat.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Allen
Chris aka divingchef
01-12-2008, 10:41
A RYA level II course equates to a BSAC boathanding course
RYA level II exam equates to diver coxn
Or rather on passing my diver coxn I got a RYA level II equivalence which I used for a euro competence certificate.
Tony
Hi Tony
A good point that I'd agree with.
I did the RYAII last year and it was very intensive and thorough.
Ok so we didn't put divers in, but we did MOB recovery in rough waters that no diving should be taking place. I believe that if you can do that then your pretty much there.
The one thing that was different between BSAC & RYA and this was pointed out by the instructor is that when you do a recovery, the RYA way, the engines are switched off not just in neutral. This means that you have to be 100% accurate in your approach to the casualty (in a motor vessel).
This is a hot point for debate as having no power close to rocks is a risk and there are a many "what ifs" to consider.
One other point you mention is the International Certificate of Competence, which is issued after completing RYA II.
If your club/diver wants to take the boat abroad the Diver Cox is not a valid qualification. You will need a ICC coastal ticket.
NB, not all countries have signed the ICC protocol.
Safe driving!:)
Nigel Hewitt
01-12-2008, 10:52
One other point you mention is the International Certificate of Competence, which is issued after completing RYA II.
If your club/diver wants to take the boat abroad the Diver Cox is not a valid qualification. You will need a ICC coastal ticket.I'm pretty sure you can get this based on Diver Cox'n now.
I'm pretty sure you can get this based on Diver Cox'n now.
Hi
If you have a Diver Cox'n ticket then you can get a ICC through BSAC. If you have a RYA level 2 Powerboat ticket then you can get a ICC through the RYA.
Chris aka divingchef
01-12-2008, 11:02
Hi
If you have a Diver Cox'n ticket then you can get a ICC through BSAC. If you have a RYA level 2 Powerboat ticket then you can get a ICC through the RYA.
Cheers
I stand corrected!
Chris
Chris aka divingchef
01-12-2008, 11:03
I'm pretty sure you can get this based on Diver Cox'n now.
Ok cheers
Chris
siwaller
09-04-2009, 00:37
Holders of the Coxn cert can request an ICC (For a small fee), I understand the BSAC manage this for all diving organisations.
CDA small boats document covers what is expected.
Diver Cox'n.
I recently completed my Boat Handling course (last month) and its quite an interesting course and fun at the same time.
We were fortunate enough to do this within our club as we had enough members willing to do it and we had our own rib available.
That being said, they do only teach you the basics.
Having just driven the boat for two days solid with a couple of very experienced boat handlers, I think I learnt more over the bank holiday then I did actually doing the course.... but thats likely to be the case considering it was just me out this weekend.
You cant buy experience :(
Hi
I agree with the above comments, and would also emphasise the importance of gaining experience, both hands-on and also general experience at sea.
Seamanship is a mixture of acquired skills and knowledge (as taught and examined on the course / assessment) and also judgement that you build up with experience. e.g., Is it too rough to launch & recover / is the current too strong?
I would strongly recommend that you do the course then try to take the opportunity to go out in the boat with at least one other who has experience. As you grow in confidence and competence, you ca then take the Diver Cox assessment.
Maria
Mike Halligan
14-04-2009, 19:29
I recently completed my Boat Handling course (last month) and its quite an interesting course and fun at the same time.
We were fortunate enough to do this within our club as we had enough members willing to do it and we had our own rib available.
That being said, they do only teach you the basics.
Having just driven the boat for two days solid with a couple of very experienced boat handlers, I think I learnt more over the bank holiday then I did actually doing the course.... but thats likely to be the case considering it was just me out this weekend.
You cant buy experience :(
You've identified the crucial combination (of knowledge, skills, experience and attitude) that will take you far.
True, the CDA course teaches you everything you absolutely must know and allows you a taste of what you're likely to have to handle. None of this constitutes experience, for which there is no substitute.
After 2 more weekends like that one, I recommend you give some thought to the Diver Cox'n Assessment and the ICC that can be obtained with your pass certificate.
You've identified the crucial combination (of knowledge, skills, experience and attitude) that will take you far.
True, the CDA course teaches you everything you absolutely must know and allows you a taste of what you're likely to have to handle. None of this constitutes experience, for which there is no substitute.
After 2 more weekends like that one, I recommend you give some thought to the Diver Cox'n Assessment and the ICC that can be obtained with your pass certificate.
Really? that soon?
Although I did participate in alot of handling, find sites, dropping divers, picking up divers, mooring etc on both days, in my head I was planning on looking at the Cox'n course maybe a year down the line?
From what I've been told the Cox'n is a great course to go on, but its more of a practical exam then a learning experience? i.e they dont actually show you anything new?
Barteh
The Diver Cox'n SDC is unique, it is not a course it is an exam :), on occasion a very creative exam, the examiners have a sense of humour, they get a whole 5 hours of your time, with you trapped on the boat with them :).
Passing the Diver Cox'n Exam is not the end it is the beginning. In theory a Boathandler should be supervised by a Diver Cox'n, where as a Diver Cox'n doesn't need the supervision.
That doesn't mean if you pass the Diver Cox'n exam you are fully proficient, it just means you have an even greater opportunity to learn.
The syllabus is here (http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=9831&filetitle=Chartwork+and+Position+Fixing)
Remember the examiners have a sense of humor, if you are doing well they will raise the bar :), they are trying to gauge the level of your knowledge, & help you gauge the level of your knowledge.
Personally, I would recommend the Chartwork & Position fixing SDC first. See here (http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=9831&filetitle=Chartwork+and+Position+Fixing).
Some Regions offer prep courses to build between the Boathandler course & the Diver Cox'n exam, have a word with your DO or regional coach.
Gareth
Really? that soon?
Although I did participate in alot of handling, find sites, dropping divers, picking up divers, mooring etc on both days, in my head I was planning on looking at the Cox'n course maybe a year down the line?
From what I've been told the Cox'n is a great course to go on, but its more of a practical exam then a learning experience? i.e they dont actually show you anything new?
Really that soon. The RYA give you (as long as you pass) your cert in the same weekend. (i.e Level 2 and ICC) AFAIK.
Read the sylubus and boat handling notes. As long as you prepare. Ideally you should not learn anything on a Diver Cox exam, as you should already know it.
Gary
Although it is an exam (which I recently passed :D ) I found the diver cox'n a very good learning experience - having a very experienced boat handler from a different club assessing, watching, suggesting and asking why? As well as passing on bits of their knowledge made for an interesting day.
IIRC a certain number of hours of boat handling expereince was required betwen takign the BHC and doing the diver cox'n. In my case about 5yrs of very occasional boat handling anda lot of charter boat diving before getting around to it.
Iain C
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