Assistant Club Instructor == Assistant instructor? (and c-cards query) [Archive]

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Wdr

18-04-2005, 04:51

Ive been searching the site but cant really find anything to confirm this in the documents on there but is the old "Assistant Club Instructor" identical to the new "Assistant Instructor" qualification ?
In other words, same limits and restrictions or are there subtle differences ?

Im getting slightly confused by looking at the c-card order forms on the site, the BSAC instructor card appears to have entries for ACI (assume assistant club instructor) but not the new Assistant instructor. In addition the ACI entry has space for an instructor number which afaik isnt given after attending the IFC. If this entry does indeed mean assistant club instructor then can a new style assistant apply for such a card with that form ?

Sorry if this is a bit badly worded, i know what im trying to ask but having problems wording it !

Attached link is the form in question.

Edward Haynes

18-04-2005, 08:14

Looks like a slightly out-of-date bit of information, my pet hate

Maybe someone at HQ could explain?

Edward Haynes
Candidate for Council

**From my Policy Statement**

Information:

The diversity of information available to us is confusing. When drafting the Branch Officers' Handbook (Internet Edition) I made use of information already available rather than repeating it. I believe BSAC Websites are critical business tools; essential to keep the membership informed and should be simple to navigate.

TerryH

18-04-2005, 12:44

Wdr

18-04-2005, 13:51

So basically ACI is now "Assistant Instructor" and is exactly the same thing with a new name ?

BSACHQ

18-04-2005, 15:41

TerryH

18-04-2005, 15:51

So basically ACI is now "Assistant Instructor" and is exactly the same thing with a new name ?

Yep.

TerryH

Wdr

18-04-2005, 17:43

:=So basically ACI is now "Assistant Instructor" and is exactly the same thing with a new name ?

Yep.

TerryH

Cheers - cleared that up.

ron evans

18-04-2005, 22:30

Since the re-structuring of the instructor grades, it is the policy to issue plastic qualification cards to the full instructor grades only OWI, AI and NI. Plus of course Club Instructors (CI). Although CI is no longer awarded, requests for cards will be met as the instructor grade is current.
There is no intention to produce cards for ADI (Assistant Diving Instructor), TIE or PIE.
We will amend the application form in order to bring this up to date to reflect this.
Technical Department BSAC HQ

Please check the information whcih you have stated: Club Instructor (CI) was replaced by Theory Instructor (TI) and Practical Instructor (PI), and a person with both is an OWI (once approved). TIE and PIE are the respective examinations, not the grades. I have a TI number, and am entitled to sign QRB's as such. I would have thought that this meant I would be able to get a TI card??

David Walker

19-04-2005, 22:18

I have a TI number, and am entitled to sign QRB's as such. I would have thought that this meant I would be able to get a TI card??

I expect this is more to do with economics than anything else. I believe BSAC buy in the semi-printed cards, and then add the names/numbers later. To have extra cards for TI/PI would likely therefore require a significant amount to be produced to make them worthwhile, and I don't imagine the demand is there to make them worthwhile. Most people become a TI or a PI on their way to becoming an OWI rather as an end goal, and so the numbers who would buy cards for a short term intermediate grade would I imagine be very low. Just like in the discussion of whether cards should include photos etc, some things are economical, others aren't.

David

NeilB

20-04-2005, 09:47

:=:=So basically ACI is now "Assistant Instructor" and is exactly the same thing with a new name ?
:=
:=Yep.
:=
:=TerryH

Cheers - cleared that up.

Or has it?

AFAIK CI were only allowed to teach in sheltered water. You had to be an AI to teach in open water. So ACI could also only teach in the pool. If you now do the IFC and OWIC you become an Assistant Instructor who can teach in open water, under supervision of course.

So not quite just a name change.......of course I could be completely wrong.

johnkendall

20-04-2005, 11:00

:=:=:=So basically ACI is now "Assistant Instructor" and is exactly the same thing with a new name ?
:=:=
:=:=Yep.
:=:=
:=:=TerryH
:=
:=Cheers - cleared that up.

Or has it?

AFAIK CI were only allowed to teach in sheltered water. You had to be an AI to teach in open water. So ACI could also only teach in the pool. If you now do the IFC and OWIC you become an Assistant Instructor who can teach in open water, under supervision of course.

So not quite just a name change.......of course I could be completely wrong.

Yup, you are. Completely wrong that is. (Well about CI)

A CI could teach in open water. They just hadn't been assessed as competent to do so.

ACI==ADI

CI is still a valid instructor grade, someone who holds it can teach in openwater, but can't supervise ADIs in openwater.

HTH
John

TerryH

20-04-2005, 11:49

:=I have a TI number, and am entitled to sign QRB's as such. I would have thought that this meant I would be able to get a TI card??

I expect this is more to do with economics than anything else. I believe BSAC buy in the semi-printed cards, and then add the names/numbers later. To have extra cards for TI/PI would likely therefore require a significant amount to be produced to make them worthwhile, and I don't imagine the demand is there to make them worthwhile. Most people become a TI or a PI on their way to becoming an OWI rather as an end goal, and so the numbers who would buy cards for a short term intermediate grade would I imagine be very low. Just like in the discussion of whether cards should include photos etc, some things are economical, others aren't.

David

Hate to state the blindingly obvious, but if it is ok to print
Name & Branch on a card locally it is just as easy to print
Instructor grade. So if we are talking economics it's a case
of one generic Instructor card with the relevant grade added
locally.

Being an ADI/AI is the first step on the Instructor trail.
At this early stage it would be more important, not less, to
have a card.

TerryH

David Walker

20-04-2005, 14:27

Hate to state the blindingly obvious, but if it is ok to print
Name & Branch on a card locally it is just as easy to print
Instructor grade. So if we are talking economics it's a case
of one generic Instructor card with the relevant grade added
locally.

The design of the cars currently mean that the instructor grade is printed on the front, and also on the back with equivalence statement, etc.
Obviously it would be possible, but its all a compromise between how you want the cards to look, and how easy they are to produce. They could very easily buy in a load of blank white cards, and print "BSAC Member xxxxxx is an xxxxxx Diver and also an xxxxxx Instructor, whos membership expires in xxxx of the year xxxx". Very easy, very cheap, but doesn't look very good.

David

TerryH

20-04-2005, 15:46

The design of the cars currently mean that the instructor grade is printed on the front, and also on the back with equivalence statement, etc.
Obviously it would be possible, but its all a compromise between how you want the cards to look, and how easy they are to produce. They could very easily buy in a load of blank white cards, and print "BSAC Member xxxxxx is an xxxxxx Diver and also an xxxxxx Instructor, whos membership expires in xxxx of the year xxxx". Very easy, very cheap, but doesn't look very good.

Sorry David, but that's just tosh.

We are living in a technological world where the cant-do
things of the past are now available in smaller and smaller
quantities at an even cheaper cost.

It is VERY easy to produce high quality cards EVEN if it's
done at local level.

To many going on an ITC/IFC and becoming a ACI, ADI, AI etc.
this is/was a milestone on the way to becoming a full
Instructor.
To say that we cant either get a card or change/tweak our
existing system to faciliate the ones that do want a card
is defeatist and not welcome in my book.

Might I suggest that the cost saving on doing a single card
could translate to a snazzier print machine that can do
a better job. There are ways you know, just need the
will to do it.

TerryH

matts

21-04-2005, 17:46

We are living in a technological world where the cant-do
things of the past are now available in smaller and smaller
quantities at an even cheaper cost.

The two do not necessarily go hand in hand I am afraid. Technology has made individual and small batch production possible, but it comes at a cost premium.

It is VERY easy to produce high quality cards EVEN if it's
done at local level.

Agreed.

To many going on an ITC/IFC and becoming a ACI, ADI, AI etc.
this is/was a milestone on the way to becoming a full
Instructor.
To say that we cant either get a card or change/tweak our
existing system to faciliate the ones that do want a card
is defeatist and not welcome in my book.

As I say to pretty much all my clients, just about everything is possible, the question is can you afford it?

Might I suggest that the cost saving on doing a single card
could translate to a snazzier print machine that can do
a better job.

Yes that is a possibility, but you should not ignore the investment in the current solution.

There are ways you know, just need the
will to do it.

Oh come on Terry you are a branch officer. I would have thought you would have known 'the will' is not enough. You also need the resource and the motivation to see it through to delivery. Voluntary organisations are rarely short of good ideas but lack people wit the time and inclination to move them forward. The whole card issue appears to need feasibility, technology identification and solution design at this stage. Someone has to do this nitty gritty work prior to an accurate cost/benefit analysis. So who is going to do it? Perhaps you would like to volunteer?

TerryH

21-04-2005, 18:11

Oh come on Terry you are a branch officer. I would have thought you would have known 'the will' is not enough. You also need the resource and the motivation to see it through to delivery. Voluntary organisations are rarely short of good ideas but lack people wit the time and inclination to move them forward. The whole card issue appears to need feasibility, technology identification and solution design at this stage. Someone has to do this nitty gritty work prior to an accurate cost/benefit analysis. So who is going to do it? Perhaps you would like to volunteer?

Very simple equation. BSAC diver takes the step of going on an
IFC and gaining AI. He is of course pleased as punch and
naturally wants a card to say what he is. He may go onto doing
PIE/TIE etc, but he could just as easily stay where he is for
a few years.

Now you can tell him that BSAC, the governing body is unable
due to cost or systems to give him a card or you can have a go
at sorting it out.

A few years ago when I first started we were using kit that
quite honestly was a week away from the bin. At the time I
asked the then committee to change the clubs policy and go
for decent Tx40/buddy rigs. To say that I was laughed at was
to put it mildly. So here we are a few years on and all the
remnants of that committee are long gone. Our kit? Tx40/buddy
combos and enough to kit out a hardboat.

It's not IF BSAC is unable to do it now for whatever reason,
it's whether it is BSAC policy in the first place.

TerryH

matts

21-04-2005, 21:43

Very simple equation. BSAC diver takes the step of going on an
IFC and gaining AI. He is of course pleased as punch and
naturally wants a card to say what he is.

It may sound logical to you but it is an assumption. It may in fact be correct but unless you do a fairly wide survey to prove the logic you are only assuming that you are correct. Personally I had no desire for an ACI card, I don't care too much for qualifications. The training and what happens afterwards is what is important to me. Without polling we don't know what the common view is.

Now you can tell him that BSAC, the governing body is unable
due to cost or systems to give him a card or you can have a go
at sorting it out.

I could tell him that if he really wants it he will help make it happen rather than continually whinging ;-)

So here we are a few years on and all the
remnants of that committee are long gone. Our kit? Tx40/buddy
combos and enough to kit out a hardboat.

Well rather than wait for natural committee attrition, I contacted various suppliers, worked out the repayment periods, looked through the equipment records, checked the accounts, and presented a case to the commitee which was approved the night it was presented. We now have quality kit and run with the minimum required to satisfy demand. Our press officer managed a similar thing with advertising. We had advertised in the same place for years, and got criticism from established members when the ad failed to run. The press officer started surveying what prosepctive members were responding to and worked out that the traditional ad had not generated a single lead in 12 months. She presented the case and we now spend less money and get more response.

That is one of the problems with working on whims, they are based on oppinions and everyone's is different. Arguing the toss is not efficient. So you need to do your homework and base your decisions on facts, IMVHO. Which presents a problem to voluntary organisations, no one likes homework ;-)

It's not IF BSAC is unable to do it now for whatever reason,
it's whether it is BSAC policy in the first place.

If it is a good idea, if it is what the membership want, if BSAC can afford it and most importantly, if someone is willing to make it happen, it will more than likely become a reality. There are a lot of If's there. The alternative is that it might get done, sometime, when it eventually works its way up the priority queues of those we 'expect' to sort these things out for us.

It is a simple lesson really, if you are not willing to do the work, don't complain when what you get is not completely to your liking.

david lisk

22-04-2005, 12:21

Since the re-structuring of the instructor grades, it is the policy to issue plastic qualification cards to the full instructor grades only OWI, AI and NI.

Technical Department BSAC HQ
----------------------------------

I agree with Terry in that I believe BSAC should issue on request and the appropriate fee an Assistant Instructor Card.

Someone up there making policy decisions is out of touch with individuals working towards instructor grades.

After I completed my IFC I got an assistant club instructor card, my Daughter did the same (at 16 years old, is very proud of it). It means something to her when she dives on holidy and can set an Assistant Instructor C-card on the table. I know others who also have the card. I went on to become an instructor and my Daughter is working towards that.

HQ can print these cards, with the new title 'Assistant diving instructor' very easily but for some reason, which I do not understand, have decided not to.

I suspect, but am not certain that PADI issue an Assistant Instructor Card.

Would someone from HQ like to explain to me why this policy decision was made, because I do not understand it.

Wake up BSAC listen to your members or loose them!

David Lisk
OWI

TerryH

22-04-2005, 14:10

It may sound logical to you but it is an assumption. It may in fact be correct but unless you do a fairly wide survey to prove the logic you are only assuming that you are correct. Personally I had no desire for an ACI card, I don't care too much for qualifications. The training and what happens afterwards is what is important to me. Without polling we don't know what the common view is.

Assumption?

There are 44 BSAC run IFC's this year + let's say 6 pro-school
efforts. On average there are 20-24 per course so let's work on
the smaller figure and say 50x20.
That's a guesstimate of 1000 new ADI's per-anum.

How many go onto TIE & PIE?
How many go onto OWI?

Doesnt take einstein to work out that a lot less go onto
higher grades and actually get a c-card.

So we have a large number who will become ADI's and go no
further.

Forget your bean counting Matt and forget what you did at that
level. The FACT is that there are some who want this and as
a method of encouragement for even doing the course in my book
is essential.

Considering that BSAC did do ACI cards, but are not doing ADI
cards they have already done the bean counting and no doubt
from a financial point of view. So it is entirely right to
keep on at them to have anothjer look at the
ramifications to individuals on a personal level.

Sometimes you just have to do it. This is one of those times.

TerryH

matts

23-04-2005, 12:07

Dont we?

So we have a large number who will become ADI's and go no
further.

Sorry Terry, other than stateing the obvious I can't see your point here.

Forget your bean counting Matt

Nope. I think that justifying how you spend other peoples money is a common courtesy. Last time people in BSAC neglected to manage the process we almost folded, remember!

and forget what you did at that
level.

Nope. My view is just as valid as yours or anyone elses for that matter. Prove I am in a mionority and I will bow to the majority - you might suggest an exit poll of IFC atendees for instance. Merely telling me what you think is not good enough.

The FACT is that there are some who want this and as
a method of encouragement for even doing the course in my book
is essential.

We used to have patches. They were discarded by popular demand. Now the ground may have changed since then or cards may be thought as more desirable. It could just as easily be that the small number that wanted patches now want cards. All I am saying is, I don't _know_ and neither do you.

So it is entirely right to
keep on at them to have anothjer look at the
ramifications to individuals on a personal level.

As you say, the exercise has been completed and a decision made. Unless there is widespread dissatisfaction with the decision it would be wasteful for our limited resources to keep revisiting it. Of course if someone new, with suitable motivation, were to step forward to do the work, rather than merely pontificating from the sidelines, it might be looked at again.

Sometimes you just have to do it. This is one of those times.

Prove it!

TerryH

23-04-2005, 13:00

:=Sometimes you just have to do it. This is one of those times.

Prove it!

I dont need to Matt. There are four who have said yes on this
thread alone. Ask the 1000 ADI's per annum and what's the odds
of a large proportion saying yes, i'll have one.

I was already a PADI AI when I took my ITC and became a BSAC
ACI, so wasnt that interested in getting yet another card.
For some though, this is a big deal and as way of encouragement
to do more, I would heartily endorse having these cards.

As for cost, we are not taking freebees here. It's pay the
?10.50 like everybody else. Makes no odds if it's 1000 cards or
10. To those 10 new ADI's this is important so we should do it.

TerryH

dano

28-04-2005, 21:25

I done my IFC last year and I sent the photo copy of the sticker to BSAC HQ and of course paid the ?10.50 and got a Q card saying Assistant Diving Instructor I would think after reading some of these posts this is a old card yes ???

Thanks

Dano

Since the re-structuring of the instructor grades, it is the policy to issue plastic qualification cards to the full instructor grades only OWI, AI and NI. Plus of course Club Instructors (CI). Although CI is no longer awarded, requests for cards will be met as the instructor grade is current.
There is no intention to produce cards for ADI (Assistant Diving Instructor), TIE or PIE.
We will amend the application form in order to bring this up to date to reflect this.
Technical Department BSAC HQ

Dave

28-04-2005, 21:48

We used to have patches. They were discarded by popular demand. Now the ground may have changed since then or cards may be thought as more desirable. It could just as easily be that the small number that wanted patches now want cards. All I am saying is, I don't _know_ and neither do you.

I don't recall a big campaign to get rid of patches nor certificates, nor do I recall ever being asked my view on them. All I recall is BSAC stating that they were getting rid of them since they believed not many people had use of them

Dave