Cold Mask Clearing

[hotpot]

Is it cruel to make an Ocean Diver Trainee do a full mask remove, refit and clear in water below 6'C?

I've been training Ocean Diver student throughout the winter in an inland quarry and have been struggling with this one.

While I wouldn't feel comfortable awarding a diving qualification to anyone who can't remove / refit a mask, doing it in water so cold it takes your breath away is added complication and something that a lot of my trainees have been struggling with.

I also find demonstrating it particularly unpleasant so I can sympathise with them.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Chris

[nick kay]

While I wouldn't feel comfortable awarding a diving qualification to anyone who can't remove / refit a mask, doing it in water so cold it takes your breath away is added complication and something that a lot of my trainees have been struggling with.
>> The recommendations say "see the silver manual for adapting the lesson to differing circumstances". Unfortunately, don't have it to hand.
>> However, I'd agree that getting them to mask clear (even at 6m) in cold water can be problematic and put them off for good / give them a mental problem with mask clearing at a later date
>> How about signing their book but putting in a caveat to say "mask clearing not completed"
>> You have to put some comment, somewhere otherwise thir training record is (dangerously?) incomplete

I also find demonstrating it particularly unpleasant so I can sympathise with them.
>> Unfortunately as an instructor you should be able to do this in any conditions, so the answer to this is probably "tough"
>> However, why not do the mask clearing at the end of the dive:
>>>> Other than problems with cold hands, at least your head has semi-acclimatised
>>>> If it causes problems and they can't hack it, then the dive isn't wasted
>>>> NOTE - Not proposing this after a 20m dive - just the initial 6m ones...

[David Walker]

Is it cruel to make an Ocean Diver Trainee do a full mask remove, refit and clear in water below 6'C?

Ask yourself why we practice mask removal. If it is anything to do with the possibility that you might accidentally lose your mask, or flood your mask, then to me that implied that it is vital that they are able to and comfortable clearing their mask in the water in which they're diving, which here is 6'c water.
If they were on a dive post-qualification and say their buddy knocked their mask off, then if they weren't happy in that situation they can all too easily bolt for the surface, or at least not be able to get it back on and cleared properly.

I also find demonstrating it particularly unpleasant so I can sympathise with them.

It doesn't have to be 'pleasant', but it has to be possible and reasonably confident. I don't particularly like taking my mask off - why would I, if I liked having my mask off I wouldn't dive with one in the first place - but when you need to, you need to. Later on they may not have a choice in whether their mask gets knocked off underwater.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Usually by the time you've progressed through the partial-full-remove cycle thier face will be sufficiently numb as to not bother them quite so much. In cold water just let them take it slowly. I sometimes have to stop and take a couple of breaths just to get my breathing rhythm back again after the shock of the cold water - I don't think there's anything wrong with that, ok it adds an extra few seconds to the process but isn't a problem. Try getting them to do that deliberately - remove mask, and then just sit on the bottom and breathe for a few seconds (say until you tap them on the shoulder or something) and then get them to refit the mask. Gives time to get breathing rhythm settled, comfortable with mask off in cold water, that kind of thing - just like in the pool.

If all that fails then wait to do it in the summer - but if they're subsequently diving in cold water and they're not happy it could cause problems.

David

[Dave Woodward]

I tend to like to get people practicing mask clearing at every opportunity , as I tend to do myself.
I got a very funny look when I did it under the ice a month back then jokingly gestured to my buddy to try it....

If I am going to be doing mask clearing, and it is very cold, I usually get the studen to immerse their face with out a mask for a few seconds to get acclimatised before the dive, then do the mask clearig early on in the dive in a couple of metres, then head deeper maybe to 6 or whatever if OK. That way there is little in the way of shock.

Should be able to do it in all conditions, and before all dives I like to immerse my face first in case I do have to clear my mask.

Dave

Is it cruel to make an Ocean Diver Trainee do a full mask remove, refit and clear in water below 6'C?

I've been training Ocean Diver student throughout the winter in an inland quarry and have been struggling with this one.

While I wouldn't feel comfortable awarding a diving qualification to anyone who can't remove / refit a mask, doing it in water so cold it takes your breath away is added complication and something that a lot of my trainees have been struggling with.

I also find demonstrating it particularly unpleasant so I can sympathise with them.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Chris

[scott laddiman]

Just though I would add my own experience.

I was teaching my wife to dive and she had to do mask removal, but I too was training in a cold quarry 2 oC.
I wanted to make sure she would be able to do mask removal in any situation but understood this would get a shock in such cold water. I briefed her before and highlighted the fact she may get a shock in such cold water and told her we would do it in 2M of water. I also gave her the option of doing it later when it got warmer. She decided to give it a go.

The first time she tried it the cold was too much and we aborted and came to the surface.

She agreed to try again and managed it no problem.

She has never forgotten the feeling but is glad she had the experience as any temperature above 5 oC seems warm to do a mask clear now.

I recently watched her do a mask removal and re fit in the red sea while adjusting her kit and doing a safety stop at the same time.
Her mask had become dislodged and she did it as if it was a walk in the park.

Being my wife I did get a lot of grief but she is now glad of the experience!

[Kevyn Bodman]

Just though I would add my own experience.

I dive in Saudi Arabia and it's never cold,but at our beach site it's extremely salty (at least 4lbs more on the weight belt compared with the sea at any other place I've dived).
Mask removal is not pleasant;if I have to teach or assess it I always do it at the end of the dive.

After the early dives then it can be done earlier and earlier,the eyes and nose still sting but the worry about that diminshes and disappears.

I still practise on the first couple od dives every year and every month or so after that,and I encourage others to do so too.

When I did my Solo Diver course with SDI the instructor insisted on doing very many exercises ,certainly most of them,first with the mask on,then with the mask off.
I didn't really understand it at the time;and I'm still not sure if it was all in the syllabus,but it was all a terrific confidence builder.

And a note about instructing styles;that instructor was a boastful,macho idiot who viewed the lessons as a competition,he kept trying to get me to do things he thought I wouldn't be able to do,before teaching or explaining things.

I think it was part of the culture in the country he grew up in,but it's not an effective teaching style.

Kevyn.

[matts]

Is it cruel to make an Ocean Diver Trainee do a full mask remove, refit and clear in water below 6'C?

If they are prepared to dive in cold water it would be remiss to neglect mask clearing. As has been said. Mask clearing is performed for very good reasons, if you dive you need to be able to clear your mask - an instructor can not do it for you.

While I wouldn't feel comfortable awarding a diving qualification to anyone who can't remove / refit a mask, doing it in water so cold it takes your breath away is added complication and something that a lot of my trainees have been struggling with.

The first thing you can do for the trainee is to make sure the only challenge is the cold water. I aim to get at least three to six mask clears per lesson into a pool session. To be honest I want trainees to be thorougly bored of mask clearing by the time they progress to open water. It is just something you do and no cause for excitement - like breathing from the regulator.

The next thing is do not make a song and dance about the cold water. Warn them that it will be a shock by all means, but do not make them apprehensive of the drill before they start.

I also find demonstrating it particularly unpleasant so I can sympathise with them.

I feel it is important that you demonstrate the skill and that you make it look natural, without any fuss. Show the student that it can be done, that it is easy and they are more likely to be successful. Personally I always leave mask clears in cold water to the end of the lesson.

[Neil Carter]

Kevyn, Kevyn, Kevyn,

Wash your mouth out with carbolic, such a subject to discuss, and here on the BSAC Forum as well, I am amazed the HQ server didn't self imoluate and melt down into a heap of plastic slag.

Still, you are now in a position to tell us poor BSAC UK divers more about this forbidden topic, or at least answer me a question that has always troubled me a tad. If you are going to go SOLO diving, how can you take an Instructor with you to be instructed, surely a contradiction in terms here.

On a slightly more serious note, what is involved with the course, and what is SDI's take on the overall subject? Also what level of experience, either diver qual, or years/no:of dives etc do they consider to be appropriate to take on such heinous activity?

What's your take on it, how often, how different etc, and are you glad you pursued the matter??

Very interested to hear what you think, oh, and yes, I am extremely envious.

All the best

Neil


When I did my Solo Diver course with SDI the instructor insisted on doing very many exercises ,certainly most of them,first with the mask on,then with the mask off.
I didn't really understand it at the time;and I'm still not sure if it was all in the syllabus,but it was all a terrific confidence builder.

[Andy Wade]

:=Just though I would add my own experience.

I dive in Saudi Arabia and it's never cold,but at our beach site it's extremely salty (at least 4lbs more on the weight belt compared with the sea at any other place I've dived).
Mask removal is not pleasant;if I have to teach or assess it I always do it at the end of the dive.

After the early dives then it can be done earlier and earlier,the eyes and nose still sting but the worry about that diminshes and disappears.

I remember a TV documentary years ago about the Dead Sea.
The kids who regularly swam in the dead sea, which of course is the saltiest sea there is, used to take cucmbers with them. After their swimming sessions, they cut the cucumbers in half and rubbed the cut ends on their eyes.


.

[Dave]

Kevyn, Kevyn, Kevyn,


Still, you are now in a position to tell us poor BSAC UK divers more about this forbidden topic, or at least answer me a question that has always troubled me a tad. If you are going to go SOLO diving, how can you take an Instructor with you to be instructed, surely a contradiction in terms here.

It is almost a contradiction to be taking a student down for them to do a solo dive, but hey, ya have to be able to watch them. One of the dives on the course is undertaken solo.


On a slightly more serious note, what is involved with the course, and what is SDI's take on the overall subject? Also what level of experience, either diver qual, or years/no:of dives etc do they consider to be appropriate to take on such heinous activity?

Entry requirement for the is 100 logged dives and be at least 21 years old

A lot of the course seems very similar to that which would be covered in the decompression procedures courses to do with ensuring that you have redundant gear ( e.g. cylinder, mask, knives ) and proper planning for gas requirements. The qualification is only for open water , non staged decompression diving

In the sample notes I have it comments
"So who are suitable solo diving candidates?

A Solo diver is
- A Self sufficient diver
- A suitably qualified and experienced diver and
- A person with the correct attitude and understanding to be responsible for themselves and their actions

Those divers who primarily fulfil these requirements are Instructors (when they are taking a class they are in reality solely dependent upon themselves and thus solo), photographers, videographers, technical divers (though solo diving is not recommended for technical dives) and often the older more experienced diver.

Very interested to hear what you think, oh, and yes, I am extremely envious

Ahh, so why not take the course then and relieve your envy

Dave

[Kevyn Bodman]

:

On a slightly more serious note, what is involved with the course, and what is SDI's take on the overall subject? Also what level of experience, either diver qual, or years/no:of dives etc do they consider to be appropriate to take on such heinous activity?

What's your take on it, how often, how different etc, and are you glad you pursued the matter??

Very interested to hear what you think, oh, and yes, I am extremely envious.

All the best

Neil

Neil,
It's about 4 years since I threw this on to the BSAC forum and I remember that you were one of the contributors who kept the dscussion more or less reasonable.
100% of my dives so far this season have been with a buddy.Proper buddy pair diving works,lax buddy diving or group diving doesn't work nearly so well.
I dive solo mabe 1/3 of the time purely to relax.I used to be an active instuctor and the most experinced regular diver in my Branch (neither of those things are now true) so even with another experienced diver I was the leader 95% of the time.And I wanted some down-time.
I did the course to get the card to add some legitimacy to what I was doing anyway.
I don't push any boundaries in my diving,and certainly not when I'm down there solo.
I've since met a number of other people who've either done the qualification or plan to do it.
You've got the details now,I doubt there's stuff in the course that you don't already do.

Solo diving will come more widely;a minority of BSAC members will do it occasionlly like I do,and some people who resisted it,as many people resisted opening up to divers from other agencies,will pretend that they were ,in fact,at the cutting edge,building consensus , preparing the ground and changing perceptions etc.etc. and will claim credit for the forward
movement.
Kevyn.

[dmc]

:=Is it cruel to make an Ocean Diver Trainee do a full mask remove, refit and clear in water below 6'C?
Pro = if they can do it then they can do it anytime, rush & not comfortable, never do it again I have seen all of those responses, small steps ie trickles of water, 'only a macho diver ' can do it.
against = any new experience build up, it can depend on the person some people are more 'reactive' to cold than others, agree best to try at the end of a dive so trainee warmed up.
Can cause a problem of trainee reacting strongly & taking in cold water thro the nose. If done in warmer times then come back to it later.




:=While I wouldn't feel comfortable awarding a diving qualification to anyone who can't remove / refit a mask, doing it in water so cold it takes your breath away is added complication and something that a lot of my trainees have been struggling with.

As mentioned above depends on the person, are they used to working/being outdoors (does their job/other activites keep them indoors/outdoors). Training and confidence - seen both sides of the coin very nervous person perform excellent mask clear, very self assured hiccup with mask clearing (especially cold water). There does seem to be an issue of water up the nose can cause very strong reactions.

The next thing is do not make a song and dance about the cold water. Warn them that it will be a shock by all means, but do not make them apprehensive of the drill before they start.


:=I also find demonstrating it particularly unpleasant so I can sympathise with them.

True your as human as the trainee again maybe a good idea to develop time to practice yourself also I have different hoods & masks so it can vary on how easy/difficult certain ones are to fit either in the pool or open water.

Other points especially for beginners is that in the pool the mask usually fits and does not keep on leaking which can happen when in open water. For that to help our trainees we recommend (and have a means to mark their card) that they practice hood & gloves in the pool, this has proven to be very useful.

In certain instances you may need to break it down so the person can gain confidence in carrying out the exercise.

With regards to the issue of a diver being able to carry out the mask clearing drill a ocean trainee maybe on say a dive to 16m and a mask is knocked off hopefully they will fit it again but they have only practiced at 6m!!! quite a difference.

Maybe we should install solar heating panels around all the quaries to warm up the water!

The question to answer is that can the diver achieve this sometime given time & patience to learn. As with all skills the important focus is that they know they have completed the task. One persons teaching/training method may not work for you.

As an instructor you at least practice - how many 'qualified' divers do?

[dmc]

:=Is it cruel to make an Ocean Diver Trainee do a full mask remove, refit and clear in water below 6'C?
Pro = if they can do it then they can do it anytime, rush & not comfortable, never do it again I have seen all of those responses, small steps ie trickles of water, 'only a macho diver ' can do it.
against = any new experience build up, it can depend on the person some people are more 'reactive' to cold than others, agree best to try at the end of a dive so trainee warmed up.
Can cause a problem of trainee reacting strongly & taking in cold water thro the nose. If done in warmer times then come back to it later.




:=While I wouldn't feel comfortable awarding a diving qualification to anyone who can't remove / refit a mask, doing it in water so cold it takes your breath away is added complication and something that a lot of my trainees have been struggling with.

As mentioned above depends on the person, are they used to working/being outdoors (does their job/other activites keep them indoors/outdoors). Training and confidence - seen both sides of the coin very nervous person perform excellent mask clear, very self assured hiccup with mask clearing (especially cold water). There does seem to be an issue of water up the nose can cause very strong reactions.

The next thing is do not make a song and dance about the cold water. Warn them that it will be a shock by all means, but do not make them apprehensive of the drill before they start.


:=I also find demonstrating it particularly unpleasant so I can sympathise with them.

True your as human as the trainee again maybe a good idea to develop time to practice yourself also I have different hoods & masks so it can vary on how easy/difficult certain ones are to fit either in the pool or open water.

Other points especially for beginners is that in the pool the mask usually fits and does not keep on leaking which can happen when in open water. For that to help our trainees we recommend (and have a means to mark their card) that they practice hood & gloves in the pool, this has proven to be very useful.

In certain instances you may need to break it down so the person can gain confidence in carrying out the exercise.

With regards to the issue of a diver being able to carry out the mask clearing drill a ocean trainee maybe on say a dive to 16m and a mask is knocked off hopefully they will fit it again but they have only practiced at 6m!!! quite a difference.

Maybe we should install solar heating panels around all the quaries to warm up the water!

The question to answer is that can the diver achieve this sometime given time & patience to learn. As with all skills the important focus is that they know they have completed the task. One persons teaching/training method may not work for you.

As an instructor you at least practice - how many 'qualified' divers do?

[Shady]

Padi the largest diver training agency requires their students to do a full mask removal, replacement and clear. Whats the problem ???

[Shady]

Padi the largest diver training agency requires their students to do a full mask removal, replacement and clear. Whats the problem ??? Is it you Chris ?? Not being completely comfortable with the skill ??
I would be happy to offer some training if you are interested.

[Kevyn Bodman]

The problem is clearly stated that some trainees find this skill very difficult in cold water.
It is extremely unlikely that Chris is 'not ... completely comfortable with the skill' and the suggestion that he is is without merit; but even if that were to be the case he is clearly a thinking instructor;and that's the kind I like.

It is always good to remember that skills that we now find easy
are not always easy for beginners,and it's always good to think about possible improvements in technique.
Thank you ,Chris,for your original post.
Kevyn.