View Full Version : Onwards from IFC?
Ben Field
08-03-2005, 12:26
Hi,
Myself along with several other of my branch are DL and AD's but "only" ACI's having done the IFC when it was introduced so we could continue training in our branch.
There has been a general reluctant to go further due to the ludicrous complexity of the next step which for any sensible individual means going on three courses over three different weekends- TIE, OWIC and PIE!
Although BSAC offer a combined course it involves wasting a weeks holiday and alot of time by dragging it out to a week and doing it abroad, this seems very unecessary.
Question- why are there no UK based Combined Instructor events?
(I know myself and many other would be more inclined to do it that way)
Secondly, having looked at whats involved- Why do we still have- IFC, PIE, TIE and OWIC all separate?
As a diver quailifed to any of the intermediate levels is of very little practical use to their club without going striaght to OWI now (thanks to the ever moving goal posts) why bother with the steps?
Why not ditch all of them and just have one course over two weekends (4 days) and do the lot in one go? We could call it the "Instructor course" have a flat fee which could no doubt be lower than the current combined cost and I'd wager we'd end up with more "useful" instructors at the end of the day.
Just a thought...
BEN
Hi,
Myself along with several other of my branch are DL and AD's but "only" ACI's having done the IFC when it was introduced so we could continue training in our branch.
There has been a general reluctant to go further due to the ludicrous complexity of the next step which for any sensible individual means going on three courses over three different weekends- TIE, OWIC and PIE!
Although BSAC offer a combined course it involves wasting a weeks holiday and alot of time by dragging it out to a week and doing it abroad, this seems very unecessary.
Question- why are there no UK based Combined Instructor events?
(I know myself and many other would be more inclined to do it that way)
Secondly, having looked at whats involved- Why do we still have- IFC, PIE, TIE and OWIC all separate?
As a diver quailifed to any of the intermediate levels is of very little practical use to their club without going striaght to OWI now (thanks to the ever moving goal posts) why bother with the steps?
Why not ditch all of them and just have one course over two weekends (4 days) and do the lot in one go? We could call it the "Instructor course" have a flat fee which could no doubt be lower than the current combined cost and I'd wager we'd end up with more "useful" instructors at the end of the day.
Just a thought...
BEN
And here's another (or two).
Dont bother with the TIE (yet).
You can do a lecture to 30 students if you want so ratios in
the classroom are not the problem, besides time for TIE's is
winter.
So you need to think PIE. Ratios obviously need to be smaller
and summer is approaching (warmer water and more likely
to be doing training). That also means fewer courses as the
IT staff go off and do there own diving. So if you havnt got your butt in gear yet and done a BSAC OWIC/PIE, go pro.
If your guys are prepared to stump up the basic BSAC cost,
but cant find a venue to suit then ask a pro shop to run one.
Negotiate a group discount and get the club to pay the
difference. We've done this with OWIC's & IFC's, local shop
no travelling/accomodation and it can work out cheaper than
the BSAC run ones. Main advantage is that you are dictating
the time and venue.
TerryH
michael smith
08-03-2005, 15:07
Hello Ben, to help to answer your question, I'll need to start with a bit of history.
The initial qualified instructor qualification was Club Instructor. The training process was a weekend very similar to the IFC. Afterwards the diver would then take a 1 day exam, which would cover teaching in a pool, teaching a theory lesson and a theory exam.
There were a number of complaints at the time that some divers didn't want to teach theory lessons, so the combined exam put them off.
When the instructor training was revised, it was decided to make the first fully qualified instructor grade an Open Water Instructor, as the instructor would be assessed in open water rather than the pool for the Club Instructor. It was also decided to split the exam to allow those divers who only wanted to teach practical skills to be qualified to teach practical elements.
At the IFC you learnt the basics of instructing, and had a chance to give a pool and theory lesson. The OWIC will give you a chance to take those same skills and try them out in open water. You will be in small group with 2 other students and your group instructor. Together you'll help develop each other's teaching.
After that, its just a case of practice, before you go for the exams. In most Regional Coaching Teams there are people who will come to your branch to help develop your instructional abilities. Just ring your Regional Coach, and see what he/she can do for you.
The exams will cover the same three elements, practical teaching, theory teaching and a theory exam. The reason to split them is to allow people the choice to only do a part. It also allows the organisers to book venues appropriate, i.e. classrooms and open water sites.
I hope that you and your branch members will ask for some help from the Coaching team.
Regards Mike
Ben Field
09-03-2005, 10:45
> There were a number of complaints at the time that some
> divers didn't want to teach theory lessons, so the combined
> exam put them off.
Thanks for the history, I'm well aware of this and still somewhat amazed it got approved.
IMO if you are going to teach something (theoretical or Practial) you need to have extensive knowledge around the subject and be able to extrapolate upon whatever your asked with confidence and facts.
You also need to be able to translate the theory the students have already learnt into real world situations therefore a knowledge of the theory and ability to go over any necessary parts of it at the practical stage is essential.
I can understand why some people don't like to do lectures in front of a crowd- its far more challenging than a one-to-one/two pool/OW lesson but I believe a large number of instructors use a lack of confidence in theory training as an excuse to avoid displaying their own lack of theoretical knowledge.
Its just my personnel oppinion but I think instructor trainees should do both rather than be given the option to pick and choose.
> At the IFC you learnt the basics of instructing, and had a
> chance to give a pool and theory lesson. The OWIC will give
> you a chance to take those same skills and try them out in
> open water. You will be in small group with 2 other students > and your group instructor. Together you'll help develop each > other's teaching.
Yes.... Erm, can't recall the regulations off the top of my head but for a while after IFC was introduced ACI's could take trainees on "experience" dives. (Lets be honest, almost all clubs have used that to allow them an addtional number of "instructors" for some training)
I think to rely on the OWIC alone to develope someones OW training skills would be a diasater waiting to happen.
I understand that some clubs don't "teach" by the nature of their setup, I however am in a club where instructing is a very large proportion of the diving we do, almost all our SD+ qualified divers are ACI's, most DL's and AD's are CI or OWI with SDC leading capability.
> It also allows the organisers to book venues appropriate,
> i.e. classrooms and open water sites.
Yes.... while true that is a ludicrously thin argument for splitting up one course into many.
> I hope that you and your branch members will ask for some
> help from the Coaching team.
Do you think it would be unreasonable to ask for a TIE, PIE and OWIC combined event in the UK? I am sure I could get 30 people interested within a couple of days....
I'm not necessarily knocking the tropic combined instructor courses it just seems completely inapproariate and OTT to train experienced UK divers who can already teach and are just jumping through hoops to collect badges to make themselves legally covered for what they already do every weekend. (Perhaps the warm water is the only incentive that works to get the Instructors necessary to do the training up from behind the PC's and into some dive gear? ;)
BEN
Ben
I must empathise with you and your colleauges with your predicament.
I completed successfully the full Instructor programme a year ago with two courses held over a weekend for the IFC and then 5 weeks later the PIE, TIE & OWI was held over a three days.
These courses were organised through the RAF Sub Aqua Assosiation and BSAC. In my opinion they were a great success run in that way because it only meant it had limited impact on my family and work life.
I am sure if you approched BSAC HQ / regional coaching team then something similar could be organised if there were the numbers to make it viable.
Your idea to make it all one course is an interesting thought, but I would personaly like the course to be at least 5 days and candidates must be recommended by their respective Diving/Training Officers.
Why?
At present if you are weak on any of the practical aspects of Skills/teaching this is brought up to standard during IFC and sets the standards expected for the PIE & OWI. If these skills are not up to scratch and your theory is not up to the instructor standards you are likely to fail and waste your valuble time and money.
Taff
Ben Field
09-03-2005, 13:36
> Your idea to make it all one course is an interesting
> thought, but I would personaly like the course to be at least > 5 days and candidates must be recommended by their respective > Diving/Training Officers.
Well at least offer combined courses as well...
I have no objection to the suggestion of DO's approving divers training to be instructors- at least they might have some idea of whether the diver is a suitable instructor.
BEN
>Do you think it would be unreasonable to ask for a TIE, PIE >and OWIC combined event in the UK? I am sure I could get 30 >people interested within a couple of days....
I agree with that sentiment, with all extras cut away ie intro sessions and a reduced wash-up (on-going instead of 3 times), surely a fast-track could be trialled (4 days perhaps) in the UK. Advertised early and widely of course.
I do feel though that the Instructors would need to feel it is worthwhile and not a "sausage factory".
michael smith
09-03-2005, 14:01
Hello Ben
Thanks for the history, I'm well aware of this and still somewhat amazed it got approved.
IMO if you are going to teach something (theoretical or Practial) you need to have extensive knowledge around the subject and be able to extrapolate upon whatever your asked with confidence and facts.
You also need to be able to translate the theory the students have already learnt into real world situations therefore a knowledge of the theory and ability to go over any necessary parts of it at the practical stage is essential.
Agreed
I can understand why some people don't like to do lectures in front of a crowd- its far more challenging than a one-to-one/two pool/OW lesson but I believe a large number of instructors use a lack of confidence in theory training as an excuse to avoid displaying their own lack of theoretical knowledge.
There are many reasons why a person may choose to not to teach theory. As a diver needs to be a DL before he/she can do the TIE, they could start by teaching OD and then as they gain confidence teach nearer thier knowledge levels.
Its just my personnel oppinion but I think instructor trainees should do both rather than be given the option to pick and choose.
We differ on this point.
I think to rely on the OWIC alone to develope someones OW training skills would be a diasater waiting to happen.
On the IFC you were introduced to assessing your lessons to improve.
The OWIC is, IMO, the best place to commence learning to teach in open water. The reason is simply that the instructor will have been trained to be able to teach open water instructing. The experienced instructors within branches are by and large very good at instructing, however they may have not been trained to teach instructing. This follows the reasons in your post regarding relevant experience and knowledge.
The person who will make the biggest development of your teaching is yourself
I understand that some clubs don't "teach" by the nature of their setup, I however am in a club where instructing is a very large proportion of the diving we do, almost all our SD+ qualified divers are ACI's, most DL's and AD's are CI or OWI with SDC leading capability.
> It also allows the organisers to book venues appropriate,
> i.e. classrooms and open water sites.
Yes.... while true that is a ludicrously thin argument for splitting up one course into many.
Before the ITS revision we had
ITC CIE OWIC OWIE
2 days 1 day 1 day 0.5 day
Now we have
IFC TIE OWIC PIE
2 days 0.5 day 1 day 0.5 day
The main exam element removed was the pool teaching from the CIE. Introduce was allowing people to qualify either on theory, practical teaching or both.
> I hope that you and your branch members will ask for some
> help from the Coaching team.
Do you think it would be unreasonable to ask for a TIE, PIE and OWIC combined event in the UK? I am sure I could get 30 people interested within a couple of days....
If this combined course was planned as a weekend i.e. OWIC Saturday and then TIE/PIE Sunday. The students would have to meet the exam critera one day after being taught. For a large amount of the students I see on an ITS event I have to suggest that they need to practice before taking an exam. If the combined course is longer than a weekend, then I would suggest going abroad. All the ITS instructors and examiners don't get payed. To do an weeks event comes out of thier holiday allowance, so they may prefer more sun and warmth on thier holiday. :-)
I'm not necessarily knocking the tropic combined instructor courses it just seems completely inapproariate and OTT to train experienced UK divers who can already teach and are just jumping through hoops to collect badges to make themselves legally covered for what they already do every weekend. (Perhaps the warm water is the only incentive that works to get the Instructors necessary to do the training up from behind the PC's and into some dive gear? ;)
If you are all instructing already, then just go and do the OWIC, TIE and PIE so that you can become an Open Water Instructor.
Help is available.
Regards Mike
Ben Field
09-03-2005, 15:07
> If this combined course was planned as a weekend i.e. OWIC
> Saturday and then TIE/PIE Sunday. The students would have to > meet the exam critera one day after being taught.
I suggested two weekends, one presumably a week or more after the other.... Anyway I was talking about people who already teach but need to do a hoop jumping excercise. As I expressed early I feel this is a considerable number that we as a club nationally all choose not to talk about :)
> All the ITS instructors and examiners don't get payed. To do > an weeks event comes out of thier holiday allowance, so they > may prefer more sun and warmth on thier holiday. :-)
Well IMO it takes a certain kind of person to want to teach and another level to want to train instructors. (I do it as a job I would never do it for diving, would ruin my enjoyment of it IMO)
It worry's me alittle that instructor trainers "waste" a week of experience diving to train people that they could do at weekends in the winter in the UK- when do they get to practice their skills, not on training courses I hope? :)
> If you are all instructing already, then just go and do the
> OWIC, TIE and PIE so that you can become an Open Water
> Instructor.
THUD.... (picks head up off desk)
Thats my point- 3 weekends which looking at the POE will take me till October if I do them locally!
Why are there no UK combined Instructor events?
Easy question and IMO a reasonable demand... FWIW My club can provide ample lecture space for theory side and I don't mind organising it but we have no pool and are miles from the coast.
BEN
Ben Field
09-03-2005, 17:08
It was suggested I find a shop that could do an instructor course here in the UK.... HA!
What a joke, I looked on the list of Schools through the BSAC.com site, half don't even do BSAC courses and several links are broken!!!
(God we are SOOOO up to date :)
Top marks to Old Harbour Divers in Weymouth (not exactly in the South East but thats how far I had to look) Who do actually advertise the PIE, TIE and OWIC on their website (although at increased cost over a direct BSAC course obviously but not bad at ?75-95/person depending on numbers. Still cheaper than Gozo or Tenerife!)
So thats one place in the whole South of England.... gezz, it's a good thing people aren't keen to teach within BSAC otherwise they'd be inundated!
(I guess its a good way of keeping the membership down and uninformed, "don't worry we could just lower the flippin' age limit some more that'll take up the slack...")
Opps, sorry... its nothing to do with membership, my mistake (smacks back of hand) Silly me... ;)
BEN
It was suggested I find a shop that could do an instructor course here in the UK.... HA!
What a joke, I looked on the list of Schools through the BSAC.com site, half don't even do BSAC courses and several links are broken!!!
(God we are SOOOO up to date :)
Top marks to Old Harbour Divers in Weymouth (not exactly in the South East but thats how far I had to look) Who do actually advertise the PIE, TIE and OWIC on their website (although at increased cost over a direct BSAC course obviously but not bad at ?75-95/person depending on numbers. Still cheaper than Gozo or Tenerife!)
So thats one place in the whole South of England.... gezz, it's a good thing people aren't keen to teach within BSAC otherwise they'd be inundated!
(I guess its a good way of keeping the membership down and uninformed, "don't worry we could just lower the flippin' age limit some more that'll take up the slack...") ;)
BEN
Sorry to spoil your thread Ben, but you missed out Andark.
We always use them for our pro-courses.
And where exactly are Andark? That'll be the South then!
You seem to forget that these are PRO courses. Unlike the
BSAC ones, you are the customer and need to arrange it with
the shop direct. That's why many dont go mad with specific
dates or prices, it's very much on demand and costs will vary.
Many BSAC schools on the lists will arrange and organise
courses, but you do have to ask. Instead of going off on one,
try spending the same time on an email or two.
TerryH
Ben, I sympathise a great deal with many of your points but it will help your cause if you can present them in a more constructive manner. Please keep in mind that the ITS staff are volunteers, the same as you and I. We may sometimes disagree with policy, but we should acknowledge that the ITS staff are just as committed as we are and doing the best they can.
The first time I did any teaching in my branch was as a DL. We had around two dozen DLs, ADs available to help out supervised by the DO, TO, two AIs and half a dozen CIs and OWIs. Club Diver got launched and ITC became a mandatory requirement. By the time the ITS was agreed we were down to one NQI and a couple DLs and ADs with ITC, actively teaching in open water.
I went to Andark for my OWIC. An expensive way to do it and the content is of questionable use. The open water sessions were useful but the theory was just a watered down version of the ITC. It took another year for me to get around to the PIE, which I passed. However, even at this point I could not teach in Open Water as I needed to complete the multiple choice paper. Unfortunately BSAC only provide the opportunity to take the theory paper at the Theory Instructor Exam. So another year goes by and finally I complete the TIE.
Throughout the period between Club Diver launching and qualifying as NQI, I have felt frustrated by BSAC for getting in the way. I am further frustrated watching keen DLs perfectly capable of teaching usefully, drift away from the training process.
Personally I think the current split exam system is better than the old CI system, where failing one element meant retaking the lot. However it is evident that it is failing to produce the number of active open water instructors the branches require. The need to attend a TIE in order to take the theory paper required to qualify as PI seems like complete nonsense - certainly it is not what I understood when Lizzy presented the new ITS at DOC. You are supposed to be able to choose to be a Practical Instructor, but in reality you have to do TIE to pass the 'multi-guess' paper required after PIE. On the other hand a PADI instructor can cross over to OWI without having to take the theory paper at all!
The ITS process is useful but way too slow, particularly for DLs and ADs who have been 'assisting' with branch instruction for years waiting for the ITS and DTP to stabilise. Of course it is this same generation of divers that were subjected to the great Advanced Diver SDC experiment. To be honest, when I finally got my instrutcor number it was more a case of 'thank god for that' than any sense of achievment on my part.
I suggested two weekends, one presumably a week or more after the other.... Anyway I was talking about people who already teach but need to do a hoop jumping excercise.
Having trod the path, I think it should be feasible to run OWIC, Theory paper and PIE over a weekend. For DLs and ADs who have been actively 'assisting' with branch training this should not be a particularly difficult exercise. It would be two long days for the staff instructors but would potentially make a dent in the number of OW instructors which is apparently what many branches are struggling with.
As I expressed early I feel this is a considerable number that we as a club nationally all choose not to talk about :)
I completely agree. As far as I can tell there is an 'underclass' of DLs and ADs that have held many branches together through the dark years. Personally I feel BSAC should be doing more to recognise the hard work they have put in. The irony for me is that with all the clever instrutor qualification process, we have exactly the same divers (DLS and ADs) teaching exactly the same experience as was the case prior to Club Diver - but we now call it 'assisting'.
Well IMO it takes a certain kind of person to want to teach and another level to want to train instructors. (I do it as a job I would never do it for diving, would ruin my enjoyment of it IMO)
I could say the same about being an NQI. I end up going on far too many dives I am not interested in, merely to be on-site allowing ACIs to teach legitimately. Personally I think BSAC are going to find it difficult to provide the numbers of instructors the branches need from Regional courses alone. Regional delivery was tried with the Advanced Diver SDCs and IMVHO failed miserably. BSAC was built on the concept of the branch providing the most effective delivery channel and I feel those making the decisions higher up the tree need to accept that.
I take the point that an NQI has not been taught to teach, although personally I don't think that teaching scuba instruction is so different from teaching any other skill underwater - the main challenge is the environment. I would like to see some process where an experienced diver (DL) can be introduced to instructing within the branch under close supervision. I am not saying that the ITS should be scrapped, only that we need a stepping stone from branch to region. Possibly that would be a role for an AI.
The region could pass on a small part of the 'teaching to instruct' to AIs who then introduce instructing to DLs, allowing them to sign up particular lessons or skills, who then become inspired to pursue the ITS. In addition to easing the pressure to provide OW lessons, this would also provide a very good reason for an OWI to move onto AI.
It worry's me alittle that instructor trainers "waste" a week of experience diving to train people that they could do at weekends in the winter in the UK- when do they get to practice their skills, not on training courses I hope? :)
BSAC relies on people that provide their time and experience for free. Who are you to question how the ITS instructors volunteer their time, itis their's to use as they see fit? A club system like BSACs only works when people enjoy what they are doing. Once you start making demands and how people volunteer it is a slippery slope. When someone is willing to help please don't complain that they are not doing a good enough job of it.
THUD.... (picks head up off desk)
Thats my point- 3 weekends which looking at the POE will take me till October if I do them locally!
If you wait for BSAC to change the system it could take a lot longer. Unfortunately we are in the present position possibly because so few branches took the time to tell BSAC how much trouble they were in. I fully accept that BSAC have not always been the most responsive of managers, however the current council are receptive, if you talk to them in a civil and reasoned manner.
Ben Field
10-03-2005, 11:03
> Sorry to spoil your thread Ben, but you missed out Andark.
No skin off my nose...
I didn't anyway, I was awaiting a response.
Apparently the BSAC Instructor courses they do are not run by the normal OD/OW Instructors/cowboys you see at Stoney and Horsea dragging hordes of unattended trainees around like a diasater waiting to happen so maybe their reputation is undeserved?
> And where exactly are Andark? That'll be the South then!
Oh goodie you've doubled the number to 2! Still a phenomenal amount... NOT
> Unlike the BSAC ones, you are the customer and need to
> arrange it with the shop direct. That's why many dont go mad > with specific dates or prices, it's very much on demand and
> costs will vary.
Who cares about dates and prices?
I said that as BSAC linked to these sites they should have SOMETHING about doing BSAC courses on their sites, some of them don't even do BSAC OD....
Anyway- we're missing the point now, my original issue about BSAC courses, not commercial stuff, which renders the point of being in a club meaningless.
BEN
Thanks Matt for taking the time to post that.
All clubs are different, but FWIW what tends to happen in my club is that people go on their IFCs a few months after becoming Sports Divers. They build up diving and teaching experience at similar speeds, and so instructor and diver qualifications build up at similar speeds. Although this obviously applies to people new to the system and so isn't directly relevant for your situation you described.
Just out of curiousity - Do you think the problem you've identified applies to new people in your club coming up through the system, or does it only apply to the group of experienced divers you've identified?
Ie do you think the ITS should be revised, or do you think the problem will go away if / when the experienced divers gain instructor qualifications?
Janos
The combined courses are all well and good but from my experience of the IFC the levels of experience border from the competent which tends to be the minority to the borderline horrendous, so surely people should go away from the IFC and develop these skills which is one reason, however from what I have seen on the combined events there is a desire and maybe the levels are higher because it costs the best part of ?1000 and you have to really work at people are better prepared than they are when they attend the IFC. This does not apply to everyone but the requirement level on paper of sport diver is often lacking in the skills showed on the day. I am sure that other IFC instructors would verify this. So what I am saying is yes you may have to wait but so what whats the hurry.
Ben Field
10-03-2005, 11:37
> I sympathise a great deal with many of your points but it
> will help your cause if you can present them in a more
> constructive manner.
This is a forum not a discussion with BSAC, unless I present my oppinoin in a straight forward manner I get no replys... (see other threads), did it not occur to people that by pepping up their posts they can generate a reaction?
> but we should acknowledge that the ITS staff are just as
> committed as we are and doing the best they can.
Yes they are wonderful... but someone at the top is setting the standards and plans not the ITS staff, how are they deciding what is the right schemes to run and when?
> I completely agree. As far as I can tell there is
> an 'underclass' of DLs and ADs that have held many branches
> together through the dark years. Personally I feel BSAC
> should be doing more to recognise the hard work they have put > in. The irony for me is that with all the clever instrutor
> qualification process, we have exactly the same divers (DLS
> and ADs) teaching exactly the same experience as was the case > prior to Club Diver - but we now call it 'assisting'.
Its all well and good but when you read heavily into the regulations you find yourself in a complete mine field of what ACI's can/can't do... for my club we just all need to move onto OWI, my club can't be unique (I bl**dy well hope not!) so it must effect 100's if not 1000's of people?
> BSAC relies on people that provide their time and experience > for free. Who are you to question how the ITS instructors
> volunteer their time, itis their's to use as they see fit?
Excuse me!!! A BSAC member trying to unravel a flawed system (IMO)
Personnelly the "bribery" involved in getting people to train isn't an issue but if they enjoy training then yes let them do it where they like.
Although I would be worried about learning from someone who is so dedicated to training that they should want to do it on their holiday!!! I'd rather learn from a diver on a spare weekend- isn't that equally part of the point of being in a club?
OD trainees in our club have to fit their training in when we can do it and I accept that I have to fit mine in when instructors further up have time but the obsence effort and unecesserity of going abroad amazes me.
> When someone is willing to help please don't complain that
> they are not doing a good enough job of it.
I think we're missing the point here?
> If you wait for BSAC to change the system it could take a lot > longer.
I don't want to effect change just get what we've got working
properly- that is, as its members need it to work... if no one tells those up on high what we need, how are they to know?
Although that comes later, I'm just feeling around for ideas and thoughts on here obviously.
> I fully accept that BSAC have not always been the most
> responsive of managers, however the current council are
> receptive, if you talk to them in a civil and reasoned manner.
If and when I do I will but I'm not doing that here am I?
Get some perspective folks- discussion of forum is one thing, making a request of the council on such a trivial issue is hugely unecessary- that is what slows BSAC down (and anything else with a committee) all the low level talk that needn't reach that high.
"We" Instructors and Trainees can sort this out ourselves- we are far more capable than we look! ;)
BEN
Ben Field
10-03-2005, 11:40
Read my original post WRT "what the rush is" think we might have missed the point slightly...
FWIW I agree and ?1000 you say? For a week abroad training? Its more than I thought, now I think its a rip off as well as a waste of time!!! :)
BEN
The combined courses are all well and good but from my experience of the IFC the levels of experience border from the competent which tends to be the minority to the borderline horrendous, so surely people should go away from the IFC and develop these skills which is one reason, however from what I have seen on the combined events there is a desire and maybe the levels are higher because it costs the best part of ?1000 and you have to really work at people are better prepared than they are when they attend the IFC. This does not apply to everyone but the requirement level on paper of sport diver is often lacking in the skills showed on the day. I am sure that other IFC instructors would verify this. So what I am saying is yes you may have to wait but so what whats the hurry.
Ben Dover
10-03-2005, 13:19
Read my original post WRT "what the rush is" think we might have missed the point slightly...
FWIW I agree and ?1000 you say? For a week abroad training? Its more than I thought, now I think its a rip off as well as a waste of time!!! :)
BEN
:=The combined courses are all well and good but from my experience of the IFC the levels of experience border from the competent which tends to be the minority to the borderline horrendous, so surely people should go away from the IFC and develop these skills which is one reason, however from what I have seen on the combined events there is a desire and maybe the levels are higher because it costs the best part of ?1000 and you have to really work at people are better prepared than they are when they attend the IFC. This does not apply to everyone but the requirement level on paper of sport diver is often lacking in the skills showed on the day. I am sure that other IFC instructors would verify this. So what I am saying is yes you may have to wait but so what whats the hurry.
Ben, you?re making a mockery of these forums. Come and see me for a good spanking.
Read my original post WRT "what the rush is" think we might have missed the point slightly...
FWIW I agree and ?1000 you say? For a week abroad training? Its more than I thought, now I think its a rip off as well as a waste of time!!! :)
Then dont do it! just giving you my two pence worth. I can assure you it is not a rip off and you are just rying to wind me up.
G
BEN
:=The combined courses are all well and good but from my experience of the IFC the levels of experience border from the competent which tends to be the minority to the borderline horrendous, so surely people should go away from the IFC and develop these skills which is one reason, however from what I have seen on the combined events there is a desire and maybe the levels are higher because it costs the best part of ?1000 and you have to really work at people are better prepared than they are when they attend the IFC. This does not apply to everyone but the requirement level on paper of sport diver is often lacking in the skills showed on the day. I am sure that other IFC instructors would verify this. So what I am saying is yes you may have to wait but so what whats the hurry.
Ben Field
10-03-2005, 14:40
> Then dont do it! just giving you my two pence worth. I can
> assure you it is not a rip off and you are just rying to wind > me up.
We're missing the point again- it is, I'm not.
Some people are taking a minor discussion forum far to seriously....
Some people are taking a minor discussion forum far to seriously....
That's probably because genuine advice from clubs that use the
system and make it work is dismissed.
If you are motivated enough to be an Instructor you will find
a course and go on it. If not then I would question if you are
suitable Instructor material. The one thing you learn quick
about being a BSAC Instructor is that you will have to put
yourself out time and again for others.
If you cant do that at the very beginning!!!!!!!!!!!
TerryH
We're missing the point again- it is, I'm not
Beauty would appear to be in the eye of the beholder.
Some people are taking a minor discussion forum far to seriously....
So what do you want us to do Ben? Take you seriously or laugh at you!
All clubs are different, but FWIW what tends to happen in my club is that people go on their IFCs a few months after becoming Sports Divers. They build up diving and teaching experience at similar speeds, and so instructor and diver qualifications build up at similar speeds. Although this obviously applies to people new to the system and so isn't directly relevant for your situation you described.
Personally I bang onto people to get onto IFCs as soon as they can. There are a couple of things which deter people and they are completely of our own making. The first is the general diving standards of the branch membership. We have been around 50 years. We have some very experienced divers. The standards expected by other members and aspired to by trainess are somewhat higher than I would judge as acceptable. So people passing SD often do not feel they are ready to even start thinking about becoming instructors because the general branch membership still treat them like Novices - great for the safety record, crap for increasing instructor numbers. The other distraction is the Sea itself. We can see the sea from our club house window and 98 out of 100 divers prefer diving to teaching, so training is rarely the number 1 priority. Most of our SDs and DLs are thinking about personal qualifications like Nitrox, Boat Handling, First Aid, Sea Search, NAS etc etc and instructing is what they turn to last.
In fact it got to the point where people avoided taking the IFC so that they could not be asked to help out with training - keep in mind that many of these people are helping the club in other ways. The changes to AD seem to be making a difference. Now that DLs are fighting for instructor attention along with the ODs and SDs they are becoming more open to the idea of instructing themselves, as they realise just how much work the OWIs and ACIs have on keeping up with our ODs and PADI crossovers. It is just a shame that I can not sign people onto the ITS courses while I have their attention at the branch.
Just out of curiousity - Do you think the problem you've identified applies to new people in your club coming up through the system, or does it only apply to the group of experienced divers you've identified?
The optimist in me says the problem might go away. The realist thinks not. With the ITS taking so long, many people simply lose their enthusiasm before they complete it. We are dealing with a sport which in the UK the vast majority join and leave within three years. If you allow for a years experience prior to IFC and one course/exam a year, which I feel are realistic time scales, you do not have a sustainable process. The old DL/AD scheme meant that a diver could become involved in instructing, so helping with the training burden, while they were at their most enthusiastic.
Ie do you think the ITS should be revised, or do you think the problem will go away if / when the experienced divers gain instructor qualifications?
I think the instructor shortage is sufficiently bad that BSAC has to do something about it before we spiral into oblivion. I think that continual training within branches is not only essential for the stable operation of a club, but also UK diving's best defence against those that seek to legislate us. There seems little point in having the very best diver training scheme if you can not deliver it to the people that need it, and that I feel is what the current ITS is doing.
One way or another we need to significantly increase the numbers actively involved with teaching in Open Water. I am not too bothered how it happens, as long as it does happen. The shortage of instructors was my biggest headache as branch chairman, it is my biggest headache as the most active (possibly experienced) OWI in a branch of 70 to 100. I have lived with the problem for the best part of ten years - and I am sick to death of being told 'Try harder'.
To answer the question (sorry for the diatribe), I do not think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the ITS process. I do think that it fails to provide the numbers required for branches to prosper and for that reason it needs attention. I do not think that the current ITS is the best way, or the only acceptable way. I do not think that an experienced diver needs to complete the whole of the ITS before they can safely and effectively pass on some of their experience.
Whenever the subject gets raised we hear that the branches can not do this or that - teach the teachers, assess the teachers . Possibly because I am asking the question 'What do we need?' I reach a different conclusion to asking 'What would we like?' But I think we need to move some of the regional skills into the branches so that training ODs and SDs is less dependant on what the region can provide. Ultimately we are all in this together and we have to find a way to work together and trust each other. The region have to trust DOs and TOs to oversee branch training and branches have to communicate honestly with the region. Or divided we fall!
Regards
MattS
Ben Field
10-03-2005, 16:42
> If you cant do that at the very beginning!!!!!!!!!!!
Again, read ALL posts before replying.... I teach plenty right now and this isn't about how much we teach or whether anyone is or isn't suitable to teach anyone else.
The thread started because myself and a bunch of fellow club members all need to go from ACI to OWI (as we see this as the only sensible step to take, end of debate on that one)
Currently it means trolling through multiple courses when the general oppinion seems to be that practiced DL's and AD's "should" be able to rattle through the Instructor training scheme to OWI in double quick time (not just me- several of you have said that)
BUT- a UK based option doesn't exist to do this, only the fly-away trips (at high cost, financially, time wise and amount of hassle) Hence, Question- Why?
The answers (both on and offline) would appear to indicate-
1. Instructors give their time for free, therefore we can only do courses when the can.
2. There is no demand for a combined course because-
2A. People will fail it.
2B. People need time to practice skills between sessions.
2C. BSAC courses are too cheap and people don't put the effort in
3. Its difficult to find a venue.
4. Commercial courses are available but cost more than BSAC courses and make a mockary of the point of being in a "club"
(also questionable quality according to some of you...)
I have also discovered that-
1. The schools in BSAC's schools list don't all teach BSAC courses.... (go figure)
2. People on this forum sign in under made up names and behave like children.
BEN
Ben Field
10-03-2005, 16:49
> So what do you want us to do Ben? Take you seriously or
> laugh at you!
Thanks... your first post was well written, clearly explained and soundly thought out...
I was referring to the cretins logged in under made up names not the grown ups on here.
This is "only" a web forum, not an AGM or council meeting... here we jump through the hoops so something consise can be composed for presentation elsewhere if necessary or an answer found to whatever the problem is.
Why people insist on getting all offended I have no idea, perhaps its been so long since the did any diving with being sat infront of the keyboards that they've lost the plot? :)
BEN
Couple of points.
1) Look on an ITC as the next grade after Sport.
We send almost all our Sport divers on ITC's. It is after all
an Inst. try-dive. So go Sport, ITC, DL, TIE, PIE etc. Adv.
If you treat it as part of club culture, it becomes the norm
and on the average boat, we would be hard pushed to have any
member that isnt an ADI.
You dont want your Sports to be seen as muppets on an ITC and
you want them as trained as possible, so we make absolutely
sure. You will get the odd one/two that dont want to do it,
but these tend to be the ones that only do warm water
stuff anyway. All this is done over the winter, leaving
summer for diving. Have 5x new sports chomping at the bit for
an ITC now.
2) Have you wondered why the CI was split into PIE & TIE?
Heres another possible reason.
BSAC have a laudable aim of all instruction being done by
NQI's. So you need to get a lot of ADI's to NQI's - quick.
If I fail one part and therefore the lot, am I likely to take
it again? Maybe, maybe not.
If the exam is split then if I still pass one and even if I
fail the other am more likely to retake and can be useful as
a PI or TI in the meantime.
So have we got more NQI's though this system?
The idea is good, just the application that's wrong.
Better to run it as per the old CIE, one day with both PIE &
TIE. Might mean some doing just one part, but most will do both.
Now you have 2 days ITC, 1 day OWIC, 1 day TIE/PIE combined.
Cleaner and more focused isnt it? Net it would get more NQI's
as well :-)
TerryH
Why people insist on getting all offended I have no idea, perhaps its been so long since the did any diving with being sat infront of the keyboards that they've lost the plot? :)
Ben. We as a club use the system to get what we want - NQI's.
It works for us (we have 7 BTW).
We also have about 10 ADI's, half of which are a mix of TIE's
and PIE's. So this year we will add another 2 or 3 to the 7.
On there heels are 5x sports who will be adding there names to
Octobers ITC events.
So heres a club that HAS NQI's and more, all done through the
BSAC system, being told by another that the same system doesnt
work.
And you wonder why we get a bit %^%&*(&***!!!!!!!!
TerryH
This is a forum not a discussion with BSAC, unless I present my oppinoin in a straight forward manner I get no replys... (see other threads), did it not occur to people that by pepping up their posts they can generate a reaction?
How much of a reaction you get here often depends on how busy people are at the time - such is the nature of voluntary contribution. If you feel the need to pep up your posts that is your decision. Personally I keep to the honest truth, it is far easier for others to comprehend and I see no reason to exaggerate or lie about what is after all a hobby. I fully accept that divers are not always the most articulate and that club officers have a duty to listen anyway. Unfortunately not every one agrees with me and when it turns to rudeness it is impossible for anyone to support.
Yes they are wonderful... but someone at the top is setting the standards and plans not the ITS staff, how are they deciding what is the right schemes to run and when?
Let's not go down the conspiracy theory route. Just think of a group of divers, much like yourself, tasked with coming up with an ITS. Exactly what courses get run will come down to the logistics of instructor availability, classrooms etc etc. Exactly like organising a trip in a branch - but with far more people telephoning every night.
Its all well and good but when you read heavily into the regulations you find yourself in a complete mine field of what ACI's can/can't do... for my club we just all need to move onto OWI, my club can't be unique (I bl**dy well hope not!) so it must effect 100's if not 1000's of people?
Unfortunately when branches, DOs etc were asked about the new ITS there was little response. So the group of divers responsible for defining it did what they thought was best based on the few responses they had. Now rather than ranting, how about making the point that you think their is a problem and suggesting how it might be overcome. In my experience people are far more likely to listen if you refrain from shouting and making snide remarks.
> BSAC relies on people that provide their time and experience > for free. Who are you to question how the ITS instructors
> volunteer their time, itis their's to use as they see fit?
Excuse me!!! A BSAC member trying to unravel a flawed system (IMO)
The system is simple enough. IFC, OWIC, TIE, PIE. As you say it possibly is flawed, but I do not see that as an excuse for criticising those making it work as best they can. Should you decide to actually do the job of regional coach, I might be more inclined to listen to your criticisms of them. I have the same attitude to people complaining in the branch, if you feel so strongly get involved and do the job better.
Although I would be worried about learning from someone who is so dedicated to training that they should want to do it on their holiday!!! I'd rather learn from a diver on a spare weekend- isn't that equally part of the point of being in a club?
Personally I like to take a weeks holiday around Spring, and the idea of not diving is a little alien. So we usually do a trip somewhere cheap like Malta or Menorca - out of season 10 dives, a hotel and a flight can be less expensive than 10 trips to Vobster or Portland. I do this mainly to get away from work and the expenses are split evenly whether instructor, trainee or diver. I do not find the diving in the Med that exciting anymore. I may as well do a bit of instructing, finish off a few qualifications and if I am lucky the group will put up with me doing one quality dive. The best thing about these trips is that when I get back to the UK I can concentrate on off-shore diving without constant badgering for OW lessons. So I teach on holiday because I actually prefer diving over here and we simply don't have enough good weekends for me to fritter them away providing lessons. Obviously I can not comment on why individual regional instructors may wish to teach on holiday but I suspect it is a good crack.
as its members need it to work... if no one tells those up on high what we need, how are they to know?
Completely agree. I am only asking that you keep in mind that the BSAC outside your branch is not a political party, but a collection of divers trying to look after 30,000 odd other divers. You took umbrage at the one sharp comment I made and expect those you criticise not to - I feel that is unreasonable. By all means criticise, but please do it fairly.
If and when I do I will but I'm not doing that here am I?
These forums do get read and policy has been made that was initially debated here.
Get some perspective folks- discussion of forum is one thing, making a request of the council on such a trivial issue is hugely unecessary- that is what slows BSAC down (and anything else with a committee) all the low level talk that needn't reach that high.
I beg to differ. As a branch officer I found out far more about what the membership really wanted while chatting at the bar than sitting in committee meetings or stood at AGMs.
"We" Instructors and Trainees can sort this out ourselves- we are far more capable than we look! ;)
And again I would agree with that.
Regards
MattS
Ben Field
10-03-2005, 17:31
> And you wonder why we get a bit %^%&*(&***!!!!!!!!
(sigh)
No one said it "didn't" work, just that for some people it could be better!
For slow progression as part of a training scheme over years then yes its fine... but like many people there are a large number of experienced divers still at lower levels in Instructor qualification who could (or should) be OWI's (for legal reaons- to make what they do already safer for all concerned)
For them a short sharp course would be highly effective and is IMHO required.
BEN
For slow progression as part of a training scheme over years then yes its fine... but like many people there are a large number of experienced divers still at lower levels in Instructor qualification who could (or should) be OWI's (for legal reaons- to make what they do already safer for all concerned)
For them a short sharp course would be highly effective and is IMHO required.
BEN
TIE - 17th April ? London
OWIC - 14th may ? Horsea
PIE ? 8th or 26th June - Horsea
All with spaces and available now. Just do it.
> And you wonder why we get a bit %^%&*(&***!!!!!!!!
(sigh)
No one said it "didn't" work, just that for some people it could be better!
For slow progression as part of a training scheme over years then yes its fine... but like many people there are a large number of experienced divers still at lower levels in Instructor qualification who could (or should) be OWI's (for legal reaons- to make what they do already safer for all concerned)
For them a short sharp course would be highly effective and is IMHO required.
And is avaialble to you or any member but is abroad and will cost you money, I dont have the figures but I would sugest that the IFC TIE PIE and OWIC would be in the region of ?175,without accomdation ect as yet there is no combined event in the uk so it is irrelevent I would suggest that it would cost the same if not more to put on such an event as abroad without the garentee that you can dive. The short sharp course is highly effective because you live and breath it but not everyone can accomdate a weeks course and thats both instructors and students.
The problem lies with what suits you and at the moment the present system is not compatible with what you want. You can please some of the people some of the time but you cannot please all the people all the time.
G
BEN
Why people insist on getting all offended I have no idea, perhaps its been so long since the did any diving with being sat infront of the keyboards that they've lost the plot? :)
If you hear an insult made behind your back does it make it better somehow?
Couple of points.
1) Look on an ITC as the next grade after Sport.
Terry you are preaching to the converted. However I am only one amongst many. Quite a few of the many around me have been diving a damn sight longer than you or I which makes things kinda interesting.
We send almost all our Sport divers on ITC's.
Yes I would love to 'send' people on courses. It is their money, their time, their motivation. I can encourage, pursuade and cajole all I want, but I can't actually force them to sign up.
It is after all
an Inst. try-dive.
Yes when I thought I might like to dive I did a try dive. I never thought I wanted to be an instructor. I was persuaded to have a go as a DL and only having tried it thought I might like to... It has never been a priority, unlike diving.
So go Sport, ITC, DL, TIE, PIE etc. Adv.
If you treat it as part of club culture, it becomes the norm
and on the average boat, we would be hard pushed to have any
member that isnt an ADI.
My branch has 50 years of culture. It goes along the lines, you become an instructor AFTER you have become an experienced diver. The culture is changeing, but I can't do it overnight, or even over five years. My worry is that even if I do manage to change the culture, with the time it takes people to meander down the ITS the majority will leave the sport before they can actually make a difference.
You dont want your Sports to be seen as muppets on an ITC and
you want them as trained as possible, so we make absolutely
sure.
Typically our entrants on IFCs have 100 to 200 dives logged. In some cases 1000s.
You will get the odd one/two that dont want to do it,
but these tend to be the ones that only do warm water
stuff anyway.
Bo!!ocks. Try the odd one or two that want to do it...after some persuasion. As Janos said clubs differ...and I know for a fact what works in your club does not have a hope in mine. If I start demanding things from my branch membership, they leave and book their own diving.
All this is done over the winter, leaving
summer for diving. Have 5x new sports chomping at the bit for
an ITC now.
Currently running an AD course for our own and another local branch. Come the better weather you will not see me for wake.
2) Have you wondered why the CI was split into PIE & TIE?
No it was explained by Lizzy at DOC when I attended some years ago. I don't think she was lieing.
Heres another possible reason.
BSAC have a laudable aim of all instruction being done by
NQI's.
It may be laudable. It may have had something to do with the commercial route that was being followed prior to the financial collapse. Whatever, if it does not do what it is supposed to do the shortcomings must be addressed. Many of BSACs problems have been addressed, but this one is not going away. When the membership and instructor numbers start to increase we can stop worrying. Until then, I believe we should think about the problems a little more creatively than asking branches and individuals to try harder.
So you need to get a lot of ADI's to NQI's - quick.
No, you need to get significant numbers actively teaching in open water. What you call them, how you provide the requisite skills and who assesses them are secondary considerations.
[snipped the bit I did not really follow]
Better to run it as per the old CIE, one day with both PIE &
TIE. Might mean some doing just one part, but most will do both.
Sounds like a very long day. The logistics are a little questionable. Speaking personally I would not want wet dive kit in the van with the data projector. Then you have to find a suitable open water site with decent classroom facilities. I am not sure I would give my best open water lesson while worrying about the classroom lesson, or the best classroom lesson straight after diving...or the other way round. I tend to think splitting theory and practical exams was a very good idea.
Now you have 2 days ITC, 1 day OWIC, 1 day TIE/PIE combined.
Cleaner and more focused isnt it? Net it would get more NQI's
as well :-)
Still prefer my other idea. IFC go away and practise. Then OWIC/PIE+theory paper combined over a weekend. TIE separate. Not quite so quick as your method but less stress on candidates and examiners so more learning and a better pass rate.
Regards
MattS
Do you think it would be unreasonable to ask for a TIE, PIE and OWIC combined event in the UK? I am sure I could get 30 people interested within a couple of days....
I'm not necessarily knocking the tropic combined instructor courses it just seems completely inapproariate and OTT to train experienced UK divers who can already teach and are just jumping through hoops to collect badges to make themselves legally covered for what they already do every weekend. (Perhaps the warm water is the only incentive that works to get the Instructors necessary to do the training up from behind the PC's and into some dive gear? ;)
It is quite possible to do the complete activity in one go; just go to a suitable BSAC school which is able to run them and then book it up; do it when you want with no problems. i'ts the way I did it
Dave
Quite a few of the many around me have been diving a damn
sight longer than you or I which makes things kinda interesting.
My branch has 50 years of culture. It goes along the lines,
you become an instructor AFTER you have become an experienced
diver.
Typically our entrants on IFCs have 100 to 200 dives logged.
In some cases 1000s.:=
So we have a bunch of divers who by virtue of there diver
grade, length of time in club and 1000's of dives, feel they
are above or cant be a**ed to do the IFC!
Yep, our two clubs are very different.
We are a young(ish) club. Have no problems with senior divers
of 1000 dives+ being told-off, marshalled etc, by younger ones.
As for waiting to become an experinced diver before
Instructor. That supposes that such a beast will make a
better Instructor. That isnt neccesarily true. Bedsides how
many dives do you need to teach mask clearing in a pool?
What must make your problem even more frustrating is that
many of the countries ITS events are held on your doorstep
at Horsea. You must be the closest geographical club (apart
from Horsea itself) and would have thought that getting divers
down there would be easy.
TerryH
PS: Also have just started Advanced and have 7 in the group.
Every one an ADI and 3 with TIE & PIE grades :-)
So we have a bunch of divers who by virtue of there diver
grade, length of time in club and 1000's of dives, feel they
are above or cant be a**ed to do the IFC!
Terry you are making assumptions, and please consider that you are talking about my _friends_ here.
I have been reading the posts on this subject with great interest. In my opinion if some one is interested in being an instructor then they will find the time to complete the course.
BUT!
If family and work commitments are as such that they can not take the time to complete the courses as they are at the momment and they are commited to do them, then may be they can speak to the relevent people in BSAC / Regional teams to come up with a solution.
Remember we are a club and we have voices so if you are not happy then pass it up the line to be looked at!
Taff
:=So we have a bunch of divers who by virtue of there diver
:=grade, length of time in club and 1000's of dives, feel they
:=are above or cant be a**ed to do the IFC!
Terry you are making assumptions, and please consider that you are talking about my _friends_ here.
Sorry Matt, no assumptions, it's all snipped from your
posts. I'm not having a go at them. If they cant be bothered
fine. Just surprised at your dilema consdering how close
you are to Horsea etc.
T.
Sorry Matt, no assumptions, it's all snipped from your
posts.
No it isn't! The negative conotations are all yours.
I'm not having a go at them. If they cant be bothered
fine.
I _really_ dislike your turn of phrase Terry. Our clubs are very different and I do not appreciate your somwhat insulting comments.
What we have is a bunch of experienced divers who, do not mind helping out, but they have lives outside of diving to consider. Quite a few start the ITS by attending IFCs but very few finish by completeing the exams. I have personally put a great deal of time and effort into trying to solve this problem. I have tried pretty much every suggestion that has ever appeared on this forum and a few other things beside - please do not try to tell me this is a simple problem and we need to 'try harder' or infer that our members are somehow deffective.
If you happen to have things as squared away as you claim, very well done. Please consider that your branch may be the unusual case with it's primarily 'young' membership. I am aware that several other general BSAC branches in the area have exactly the same qualified instructor shortage. I am also aware that lack of access to qualified instructors is a very common complaint across the organisation.
Just surprised at your dilema consdering how close
you are to Horsea etc.
Having ITS events run locally certainly helps. We have movement where previously there was none. I have my fingers crossed that we will have an additional 3 OWIs by the end of the year - redundancy, child birth and divorce notwithstanding.
:=Sorry Matt, no assumptions, it's all snipped from your
:=posts.
No it isn't! The negative conotations are all yours.
:=I'm not having a go at them. If they cant be bothered
:=fine.
I _really_ dislike your turn of phrase Terry. Our clubs are very different and I do not appreciate your somwhat insulting comments.
Chill Matt. We also have a few that dont want to do the IFC.
If they cant be bothered, fine. That's not an attack or
derogatory statement. It just says "fine" that's: it doesnt
matter, makes no odds, move on etc.
What we have is a bunch of experienced divers who, do not mind helping out, but they have lives outside of diving to consider. Quite a few start the ITS by attending IFCs but very few finish by completeing the exams. I have personally put a great deal of time and effort into trying to solve this problem. I have tried pretty much every suggestion that has ever appeared on this forum and a few other things beside - please do not try to tell me this is a simple problem and we need to 'try harder' or infer that our members are somehow deffective.
Never said it was simple for your club. Simple for mine,
but we are very different. We churn out large numbers of basic
grades. So all we need is ADI's + new DL/OWI's. A smaller
percentage go on to more serious stuff and that's where
the ADv/OWI, 1st/AI's come in.
As a Uni club evrybody is in learn mode, so an extra course or
exam is seen as just part of the normal timetable.
Your guys arent in that mode and it sounds like havnt been
there for quite a long time, so yes it will be tricky to get
them to change.
Like you say, I think your main problem is the mindset of the
club that sees very experinced diver first, then Instructor.
Change this to grades and levels Inst./experience and you might
stand a better chance.
After all I dont need to be a 50m + deco battle-hardened
veteran to teach mask clearing in the pool.
TerryH
Paul Beal
16-03-2005, 15:42
I have no idea if this has been said above or not as I have not got time to read the whole thread but there are PIE/TIE combined exams run in the UK - there are a couple at Ecclestone that I can think of and I am sure there are more. That leaves you only having to commit to 2 weekends (OWIC and PIE/TIE) and some preparation time. Ring HQ and talk to Jim Watson for details
Paul
Trainee ITS instructor (Yorks)
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