The second, second stage.

[terry allen]

Most call it an Octopus.
Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
Should it be rigged for easy access by me or my buddy?
Should it come over my left or right shoulder?

Can we please leave out long hoses,swivels and regs that can be used either way round as that will make the discussion more complicated.
Terry
KDS KDS

[nick kay]

Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
>> Why would YOU need to use it? If you're out of air, then a 2nd 2nd stage won't help you. If your 1st stage has failed then ditto. If your primary 2nd stage has failed/is free-flowing, then you may aswell breathe fron it as you ascend (what else would you be doing)
>> Therefore, it's for your buddy...

Should it be rigged for easy access by me or my buddy?
>> See above

Should it come over my left or right shoulder?
>> If its a true Octopus, then it'll be "handed" and for use by your buddy, therefore it should go over (under?) your left shoulder (if it goes over your/under right, then it'll be the wrong way up for your buddy)
>> FWIW, my preference is to see it on a longer hose, under the left armpit and up to the right shoulder held on by bungie or some other "quick release". Its prominent, easy to see, easy to access. By going under the armpit, it streamlines you somewhat and reduces the risk of entanglement

Can we please leave out long hoses,swivels and regs that can be used either way round as that will make the discussion more complicated.
Terry
KDS KDS

[terry allen]

:=Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
>> Therefore, it's for your buddy...

Please consider the exaust valve/flap leaking or the diaphram leaking on your primary.

:=Should it be rigged for easy access by me or my buddy?

:=Can we please leave out long hoses,swivels and regs that can be used either way round as that will make the discussion more complicated.
:=Terry
:=KDS KDS

[nick kay]

Please consider the exaust valve/flap leaking or the diaphram leaking on your primary.
>> In which case, you're going up
One reason for it being for you vs many for your buddy, unless we start adding things like:
1. what if the mouthpiece (bite) falls off
2. what if you've deco'd on your pony (and emptied it) and you return to your main reg to find it has jellyfish stuck wrapped round it
:-)

[iainmsmith]

:=:=Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
:=>> Therefore, it's for your buddy...

Please consider the exaust valve/flap leaking or the diaphram leaking on your primary.

If you're using an octopus configuration, the your buddy has one too, doesn't he?

Iain

[Martin]

>> Why would YOU need to use it?

I use mine if I'm feeling green in rough seas.

[Ian Clarke]

:=:=Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
:=>> Therefore, it's for your buddy...

Please consider the exaust valve/flap leaking or the diaphram leaking on your primary.

:=:=Should it be rigged for easy access by me or my buddy?

:=:=Can we please leave out long hoses,swivels and regs that can be used either way round as that will make the discussion more complicated.
:=:=Terry
:=:=KDS KDS

Your octos primary function is for your buddy to use in an out of air/equipment failure situation and should be on the left.....BUT as you say there are times you may need to use it, after all why use up all your buddys reserve air when you have a perfectly breathable reg of your own. Makes sense to keep that in case you really need it. No problem the hose is slightly longer and can easily be routed behind your head so the reg is the right way round for you.

Another BUT.....if it ever happens you should start asending with your buddy immediatly.

Now if his regs also fail your only options would be buddy breathing or an emergency swimming ascent....both of which are no longer taught by BSAC?????

[derek perry]

Who is the most important person when you are diving - YOU
Who is responsible for your safety - YOU
In research which DV does an out of air diver usually grab first - The one in their buddies mouth
Who do you configure your kit for - YOU

Work on these principles and the Octo is primarily for you and secondarily for your buddy.

You will never get everyone to agree on this. I am a great believer in concentrating on your own safety first, no matter how unlikely any scenario might be. Therefore you configure your kit for yourself first and your buddy second.

Having said that if you put some thought into what kit you buy, then there are regs out there that work for both you and your buddy, Viz Poseidon.

Another couple of scenarios to think of;
Over the years I have had more than one buddy come up to me underwater with their second stage in bits, having had to go onto their Octo because their primary fell apart.

When a second stage free-flows, one good method to control it is the bend the hose to stop the air. You'll need your Octo then.


Derek



Most call it an Octopus.
Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
Should it be rigged for easy access by me or my buddy?
Should it come over my left or right shoulder?

Can we please leave out long hoses,swivels and regs that can be used either way round as that will make the discussion more complicated.
Terry
KDS KDS

[Philip Smith]

In research which DV does an out of air diver usually grab first - The one in their buddies mouth

Which research?

Phil.

[TerryH]

Most call it an Octopus.
Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
Should it be rigged for easy access by me or my buddy?
Should it come over my left or right shoulder?

Can we please leave out long hoses,swivels and regs that can be used either way round as that will make the discussion more complicated.
Terry
KDS KDS

It's for your buddy.
Rigged for your buddy.
Under your left arm.

TerryH

[John Williams]

:=>> Why would YOU need to use it?

I use mine if I'm feeling green in rough seas.

I dont geddit?

If you're feeling sick - you take a perfectly good (usually better) second stage out of your mouth to put in another one (that feels different, less comfortable, and usually breathes more stiffly)

Why?

If it's so that your Octo gets full of diced carrot instead of your primary reg (....remind me never to dive with you!) then you're still asking a lesser reg to cope with a more stressful situation (and then expecting it to go back into "standy mode" ready for next time you need it.

Which might mean that you choose to put a reg with a bit of diced carrot stuck inside it into your gob when you REALLY don't need to be reminded about last time!

John

[John Williams]

When a second stage free-flows, one good method to control it is the bend the hose to stop the air. You'll need your Octo then.

If you have a hose that can be bent to close it off - change it NOW!

If you have ever tried to do this (even if it failed) you will have damaged the hose to the point where it may fail - so replace it NOW!

And to answer the point - no! you'll need to use your buddy's Octo and then make a safe ascent together (what else would you be doing?)

John

[John Williams]

:=In research which DV does an out of air diver usually grab first - The one in their buddies mouth

Which research?

Phil.

Extremely good point!

And to respond to the original post ....I'll bet that the "research" you refer tom (if it ever occurred)followed training in grabbing a working regulator from someone's mouth.

I'll also bet that the octo was rigged to be awkward for the "grabee" to use - and that it was not brightly coloured, located in the "triangle of visibility" - and that the buddy check did not state "this is mine, leave it alone! - you go for this one if you need it...try it now so that you are familiar with it's use"

You can make most "research" say what you want it to say - unless it is a VERY large sample with randomised, double-blind protocols (impossible to acheive in this case - because the divers would not both be "blinded" to the choice!)

John

[terry allen]

:=Most call it an Octopus.
:=Primarily is it there for me or my buddy?
:=Should it be rigged for easy access by me or my buddy?
:=Should it come over my left or right shoulder?
:=
:=Can we please leave out long hoses,swivels and regs that can be used either way round as that will make the discussion more complicated.
:=Terry
:=KDS KDS

It's for your buddy.
Rigged for your buddy.
Under your left arm.

TerryH


Divers.
As you can see there is a massive difference in opinion. In one case its for the buddy and should be rigged as such whilst another instructer says its for me.
When I originally posted this question I was hoping for an immediate direction from BSAC but regrettably this has not happened, nor do I think it will and that in itself is a problem.There are some things that must be laid down and I think that this is one of them.
What would happen if each of us decided to teach which side of the road to drive on.

[John Williams]

When I originally posted this question I was hoping for an immediate direction from BSAC but regrettably this has not happened, nor do I think it will and that in itself is a problem.There are some things that must be laid down and I think that this is one of them.

You are correct: It is something that BSAC gave advice on (note - BSAC has very few "rules" and this is NOT one of them)

My study is currently full of junk (decorating bedrooms)or I would dig out the old NDC bulletin that gives clear guidance on this matter - with pictures and explanations and everything!

What that article said was - air comes over your right shoulder - both yours and your octo (so if you are ever out of air you go right). Octos should preferably not be "handed" - but if they are then they should be "handed" for the intended recipient ...your buddy!
This advice did get published when Octos were new and were replacing Buddy Breathing - so approaching from the "correct" side was trained.
The confusion occurred when the training drills called for buddy breathing whilst moving - made difficult with octos and short hoses...unless you could swim side-by-side (acheivable by putting a R-hand D-V over your L shoulder). However the NDC article makes it clear that divers should NOT be going anywhere but UP if Buddy Breathing for real!

Guages/feeds come over your left shoulder - so if you want info - go Left!

Unfortunately - it's not one of the NDC bulletins found on these pages!

Perhaps someone else can find it and give the Bulletin number?
(of course, this advice is SO old that many will choose to ignore it anyway!)

John

[Ian Clarke]

:=When I originally posted this question I was hoping for an immediate direction from BSAC but regrettably this has not happened, nor do I think it will and that in itself is a problem.There are some things that must be laid down and I think that this is one of them.

You are correct: It is something that BSAC gave advice on (note - BSAC has very few "rules" and this is NOT one of them)

My study is currently full of junk (decorating bedrooms)or I would dig out the old NDC bulletin that gives clear guidance on this matter - with pictures and explanations and everything!

What that article said was - air comes over your right shoulder - both yours and your octo (so if you are ever out of air you go right). Octos should preferably not be "handed" - but if they are then they should be "handed" for the intended recipient ...your buddy!
This advice did get published when Octos were new and were replacing Buddy Breathing - so approaching from the "correct" side was trained.
The confusion occurred when the training drills called for buddy breathing whilst moving - made difficult with octos and short hoses...unless you could swim side-by-side (acheivable by putting a R-hand D-V over your L shoulder). However the NDC article makes it clear that divers should NOT be going anywhere but UP if Buddy Breathing for real!

Guages/feeds come over your left shoulder - so if you want info - go Left!

Unfortunately - it's not one of the NDC bulletins found on these pages!

Perhaps someone else can find it and give the Bulletin number?
(of course, this advice is SO old that many will choose to ignore it anyway!)

John


Even better John, take a look at the current Ocean diver training presentations. You always see the octo on the left and the graphic on slide 15 of OT6 (AAS ascents) clearly shows the octo over the left shoulder.

Mind you in OT2 (Diving Equipment and Signals) the contents gauge is shown on the right?

[Philip Smith]

My study is currently full of junk (decorating bedrooms)or I would dig out the old NDC bulletin that gives clear guidance on this matter - with pictures and explanations and everything!

What that article said was - air comes over your right shoulder - both yours and your octo (so if you are ever out of air you go right). Octos should preferably not be "handed" - but if they are then they should be "handed" for the intended recipient ...your buddy!
This advice did get published when Octos were new and were replacing Buddy Breathing - so approaching from the "correct" side was trained.
The confusion occurred when the training drills called for buddy breathing whilst moving - made difficult with octos and short hoses...unless you could swim side-by-side (acheivable by putting a R-hand D-V over your L shoulder). However the NDC article makes it clear that divers should NOT be going anywhere but UP if Buddy Breathing for real!

If you are referring to "Alternative air sources the only way to go?" by Tony Cummings, NDC Bulletin 35, August 1997, pp. 4-5, your recollection is not quite accurate. I would say that octos had been in common use for quite a while before this article was published. The article does not say that octos are only for your buddy: in fact it says, "Remember that AAS is there for both you and your buddy, and must be capable of working in either situation." It did not say that octos should come over the right shoulder, but discussed the pros and cons of different configurations in different circumstances. Among these it specifically considered swimming horizontally, because "When an out of air situation arises it may involve moving horizontally before making an ascent."

The only specific recommendations were:
"The DV should not be upside down when being used
The hose should be of adequate length
The DV should be located (where it can be seen) making it easily and quickly accessible
The octopus hose should not interfere with any other part of either divers' equipment
The hose and / or DV should be brightly coloured for easy identification."

Phil S.

[michael smith]

Hello Terry, most problems can be sorted out underwater given time. The one that can't is running out of gas. The second 2nd stage is aimmed to be your buddy's gas source if he/she has a gas problem.

My octopus goes over my left shoulder, my reason, if I am going to have to help my buddy up, I can grip with my left hand and use my right to control gas from either thier BC or drysuit. By having the octopus on my left, it ensures that it doesn't get in the way.

The octopus is positioned in front of my throat, so it is easier to get. I also ensure that there is nothing over the octopus hose to impede its use.

For my own back up in shallower waters I use a pony cylinder.

Regards Mike

[terry allen]

Hello Terry, most problems can be sorted out underwater given time. The one that can't is running out of gas. The second 2nd stage is aimmed to be your buddy's gas source if he/she has a gas problem.

My octopus goes over my left shoulder, my reason, if I am going to have to help my buddy up, I can grip with my left hand and use my right to control gas from either thier BC or drysuit. By having the octopus on my left, it ensures that it doesn't get in the way.

The octopus is positioned in front of my throat, so it is easier to get. I also ensure that there is nothing over the octopus hose to impede its use.

For my own back up in shallower waters I use a pony cylinder.

Regards Mike

Divers
Thanks to you all for your input. I have written again to BSAC and asked for direction. If/when I get it I will ensure that I make a fresh posting.
In the meantime I must say that I feel that the position of the Octo and to that extent contents gauges should be universal and BSAC should make their position, which should be firm, known. As an aside I am also making representation to PADI so as to assertain their position and will post their reply.

Thanks again
Terry
KDS KDS

[iainmsmith]

:=Hello Terry, most problems can be sorted out underwater given time. The one that can't is running out of gas. The second 2nd stage is aimmed to be your buddy's gas source if he/she has a gas problem.
:=
:=My octopus goes over my left shoulder, my reason, if I am going to have to help my buddy up, I can grip with my left hand and use my right to control gas from either thier BC or drysuit. By having the octopus on my left, it ensures that it doesn't get in the way.
:=
:=The octopus is positioned in front of my throat, so it is easier to get. I also ensure that there is nothing over the octopus hose to impede its use.
:=
:=For my own back up in shallower waters I use a pony cylinder.
:=
:=Regards Mike

Divers
Thanks to you all for your input. I have written again to BSAC and asked for direction. If/when I get it I will ensure that I make a fresh posting.
In the meantime I must say that I feel that the position of the Octo and to that extent contents gauges should be universal and BSAC should make their position, which should be firm, known. As an aside I am also making representation to PADI so as to assertain their position and will post their reply.

Terry,

For how long should this "universal" position be required? At what point are people allowed to use alternative configurations? If an instructor deems a particular configuration preferable and safer, is it reasonable to "require" them to adopt (what they see as) and inferior configuration for open water teaching?

For example, anything below 20m would be a dive for which I would only use a long hose/backup configuration. Obviously, I'd be more than happy to have BSAC standardise on that, but there's equally obviously no chance whatsoever of that happening.

However, if you are mandating a single configuration to be used at all levels you are not giving me the opportunity to pass on to the students an option that they might not have considered. Equally, if you _are_ going to allow SDs the discretion to learn from their instructors' personal experience and to adopt techniques, what happens if an SD is buddied with an OD?

If you ban flexibility, what happens if the trainee goes elsewhere and dives with someone using an alternative configuration? Or do you expect the world to retrain?

Iain

[will swift]

:=:=Hello Terry, most problems can be sorted out underwater given time. The one that can't is running out of gas. The second 2nd stage is aimmed to be your buddy's gas source if he/she has a gas problem.
:=:=
:=:=My octopus goes over my left shoulder, my reason, if I am going to have to help my buddy up, I can grip with my left hand and use my right to control gas from either thier BC or drysuit. By having the octopus on my left, it ensures that it doesn't get in the way.
:=:=
:=:=The octopus is positioned in front of my throat, so it is easier to get. I also ensure that there is nothing over the octopus hose to impede its use.
:=:=
:=:=For my own back up in shallower waters I use a pony cylinder.
:=:=
:=:=Regards Mike
:=
:=Divers
:=Thanks to you all for your input. I have written again to BSAC and asked for direction. If/when I get it I will ensure that I make a fresh posting.
:=In the meantime I must say that I feel that the position of the Octo and to that extent contents gauges should be universal and BSAC should make their position, which should be firm, known. As an aside I am also making representation to PADI so as to assertain their position and will post their reply.

Terry,

For how long should this "universal" position be required? At what point are people allowed to use alternative configurations? If an instructor deems a particular configuration preferable and safer, is it reasonable to "require" them to adopt (what they see as) and inferior configuration for open water teaching?

For example, anything below 20m would be a dive for which I would only use a long hose/backup configuration. Obviously, I'd be more than happy to have BSAC standardise on that, but there's equally obviously no chance whatsoever of that happening.

However, if you are mandating a single configuration to be used at all levels you are not giving me the opportunity to pass on to the students an option that they might not have considered. Equally, if you _are_ going to allow SDs the discretion to learn from their instructors' personal experience and to adopt techniques, what happens if an SD is buddied with an OD?

If you ban flexibility, what happens if the trainee goes elsewhere and dives with someone using an alternative configuration? Or do you expect the world to retrain?

Iain

Not to mention that mandating a single configuration would also bee seen as a restriction on trade of companies selling 'non standard' recreational diving equipment - so unless you could argue, and win, that you were stopping the sale of their products to preserve life it would end up an expensive rule.

Although thinking about it there are a few products that probably should be banned anyway :)

[derek perry]

:=In research which DV does an out of air diver usually grab first - The one in their buddies mouth

Which research?

BSAC incident reports as quoted to me numerous times by instructors on the Instructor courses.

Derek

[derek perry]

I have done this, I know numerous people who have done this and none have ever reported a problem.
If you succeed in slowing / stopping the freeflow why would you complicate things by using your buddies Octo? Surface , yes, but keep it simple.



:=When a second stage free-flows, one good method to control it is the bend the hose to stop the air. You'll need your Octo then.

If you have a hose that can be bent to close it off - change it NOW!

If you have ever tried to do this (even if it failed) you will have damaged the hose to the point where it may fail - so replace it NOW!

And to answer the point - no! you'll need to use your buddy's Octo and then make a safe ascent together (what else would you be doing?)

John

[Philip Smith]

:=:=In research which DV does an out of air diver usually grab first - The one in their buddies mouth
:=
:=Which research?

BSAC incident reports as quoted to me numerous times by instructors on the Instructor courses.

Well, certainly it happens sometimes, but not "usually". The most common first response in recent years has been use (or at least offering) of the buddy's AAS.

Phil S.

[John Williams]

BSAC incident reports as quoted to me numerous times by instructors on the Instructor courses.


Forgive me stating the obvious...but if people are grabbing the DV from a "donors" mouth ....and ending up in the Incident Report ... does that not prove that this is the wrong method to use (and therefore something that should be actively discouraged during training)?

John

[John Williams]

If it saves your life ....fine!

however, this practice, is highly detrimental to your kit and should not be routine.

If you have done it then you have severely weakened your hose. It will fail just when you don't want it to (Sod's Law says so!)

If you have damaged something in the course of an emergency - replace it ASAP.

John

[matts]

:=BSAC incident reports as quoted to me numerous times by instructors on the Instructor courses.


Forgive me stating the obvious...but if people are grabbing the DV from a "donors" mouth ....and ending up in the Incident Report ... does that not prove that this is the wrong method to use (and therefore something that should be actively discouraged during training)?

No not at all. There have also been incidents where mixed gas divers have ended up breathing high concentrations of oxygen becasue they DID NOT take the reg in the donors mouth. Primary donation is a legitimate technique taught, by most of the technical agencies and practised by thousands of divers.

I presume the 'research' quoted refers to the reporting by instructors that ODs trained to buddy breathe were often taking their own regs out as a first response to the OOA signal. This was thought to be the result of ODs recieving more training/practise with BB because it is a more difficult technique to learn. By the time an OD could demonstrated an adequate standard of BB it appears they had forgotten the AAS. Hence BSAC dropped buddy breathing.

The point would seem to be that if you intend to use a particular method, you and those you dive with should practise it regularly.

Now personally rather than 'actively discouraging' primary donation during training, I would stick to what I believe. It is a technique which has identifiable benefits for mixed gas divers. The drawback is an increase in stress for the donor, mitigated by the practise and experience that a mixed gas diver should possess. So when someone is ready for mixed gas diving they may want to think about primary donation. Primary donation has fewer benefits when you can breathe all the gas you are carrying and AAS offers an effective low stress method of sharing air in this situation.

IMVHO. AAS, primary donation and BB are all legitimate techniques with particular advantages and disadvantages. All three methods require regular practise to be at all affective. Failure to practise and maintain skills is the most likely reason they fail.

[terry allen]

My original post has been lost in the replys.
I asked is the Octopus for me or my buddy?
I am thinking of simple diving using one cylinder, normal length hoses, no swivels etc. ( Say on holiday/even using hire kit)
As a Ist stage would normally fail open and the second would normally fail closed or allow the inspiration of water through the exaust valve or Diaphram I still firmly believe that the second, second stage is for me and should be fixed as such.Sure my buddy is welcome to it if I dont want it but I come first. After all I cannot save my buddy if I cannot save myself so in the event of my kit failure, again I must come first.
Or am I being selfish.