AI - Why? [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

terryh

20-09-2004, 12:43

Following on from all the AI/AIE talk recently.

AI - Why bother?

You can teach all the SDC's apart from DPM and even on that one
as long as you have an AI as course boss.

The description of AI is .......
ADVANCED INSTRUCTOR An instructor who is competent in teaching
skills associated with open water diver training using boats as
diving platforms.

So that will be exactly what many OWI's in coastal clubs have
been doing since day 1. Expedition & dive planning? Well yes,
a busy OWI already does that as well.

So what am I missing?
Or rather what is missing from AI?

If we are working towards the stated aim of BSAC to have only
OWI's teach, then surely AI needs to be a similar "what it says
on the tin."
In other words why isnt an AI an Instructor that has all SDC
approvals and can teach at a higher level. Maybe only AI's can
award Advanced etc?

I know there is a camp that says you do the grade to prove
competency to yourself, but when you are already doing the
job that the grade is supposed to be testing!!!!! Doesnt that
make a mockery of it?

I'm pretty sure that there has been a decline in the number
taking AI. So I'm probably not the only one who thinks this
way. This is not a plee for removing the grade or saying it
needs to be dumbed down, more that I think it has become
irrelvant and not inclusive of what's happening today.

Your average semi-advanced dive on a hardboat today, will have
twinsetted divers on nitrox, cutting tables (forget 88's) and
going into minor deco. Dive planning is entirly taken up with
the dive itself. Getting there etc. that's the skippers job.
Yes you should know how to do it, but why the emphisis on a
topic which plays less and less a part in todays diving.

Bottom line here IMO is that AI looks cranky and needs to be
made relevant. Diving has moved on and of all levels the
advanced ones have moved the most. Time for a change?

Comments.

Rgds
TerryH

Mike Halligan

20-09-2004, 15:47

AI - Why bother?

Terry,

John Williams gave us this in December '02. Little of what he stated then seems to me significantly changed today.

(Still haven't got round to AIC, must get more leave!)

Mike

PeteM

20-09-2004, 16:07

Maybe only AI's can
award Advanced etc?

I thought that was almost the case anyway, don't have my instructors manual to hand but I was under the impression that about a third to half of the lessons had to be done by an AI.

nick kay

20-09-2004, 16:15

A few reasons...

1. WRT the AI/C (as opposed to the AI Exam). Hones your Instructing skills, teaches you the things you're (possibly/probably) missing as a CI (I know I learned alot)

2. AI is the foundation for ITS (Instructor Training)

3. As stated, you can only boss DPM if you're AI, but there again, there's nothing to stop you teaching as a CI on a DPM course (of course, if you don't get involved in BSAC on a regional level by teaching on SDCs...)

4. I believe there's one lecture in the new AD syllabus that requires AI to teach it (wow!)

5. You can teach in a BSAC School (dreaming of retiring abroad...)

Q. From a personal perspective, why did I do the AI/E?
A. I didn't set out to do it, I wanted to do the AI/C (as per 1 above) and was advised by one of the Instructors on the course to take the AI/E. Otherwise, I'm not convinced I'd have taken it (at least not this year)

And... thanks to all the AIs and NIs that helped the group of us that practised, revised, prep'd for the exam - much appreciated

terryh

20-09-2004, 17:56

:= Maybe only AI's can
:=award Advanced etc?

I thought that was almost the case anyway, don't have my instructors manual to hand but I was under the impression that about a third to half of the lessons had to be done by an AI.

Not really. Advanced/OWI for most of it with AI or AAI (under
supervision) for just three lectures - AT1, AP1, AP2.

All of which are just about covered in the DPM SDC which also
needs an AI.

TerryH

terryh

20-09-2004, 18:14

:=AI - Why bother?

Terry,

John Williams gave us this in December '02. Little of what he stated then seems to me significantly changed today.

(Still haven't got round to AIC, must get more leave!)

Mike

Done the AIC Mike, learnt? Well nada, nothing. Ok it was fine
taking somebody round, playing with a few bits of kit and
gunning a RIB round Portland, but actual teaching experience?

TerryH

Dave

20-09-2004, 19:19

5. You can teach in a BSAC School (dreaming of retiring abroad...)

You can do that as an OWI. You only need an AI or higher as the Chief Instructor

Dave

gridler

20-09-2004, 19:48

:=:=AI - Why bother?
:=
:=Terry,
:=
Done the AIC Mike, learnt? Well nada, nothing. Ok it was fine
taking somebody round, playing with a few bits of kit and
gunning a RIB round Portland, but actual teaching experience?

TerryH

I learnt loads on my AIC maybe some people know it all already !!

Mike Halligan

20-09-2004, 20:05

:=:=:=AI - Why bother?
:=:=
:=:=Terry,
:=:=
:=Done the AIC Mike, learnt? Well nada, nothing. Ok it was fine
:=taking somebody round, playing with a few bits of kit and
:=gunning a RIB round Portland, but actual teaching experience?
:=
:=TerryH

I learnt loads on my AIC maybe some people know it all already !!

Yes, that's more or less what John posted 2 years ago.

As said, I shall have to get more leave. Terry's re-opening of the topic reminded me of John's clear endorsement and he (JW) truly does make it all worthwhile and considerably more tempting.

Now then, where/when were those combined events to be held?

Mike ;-)

wreckferret

20-09-2004, 20:20

I have been an AI for 10 years, I agree why be an AI when OWI
will do the same job. I gave up and just concentrate on my diving.

terryh

21-09-2004, 01:04

I learnt loads on my AIC maybe some people know it all already !!

Well hate to say this, but yes maybe they do or rather
should do!

Attending an IFC you can be forgiven for having lax diving
techniques etc. After all the entry level is Sport diver and
no requirement to have any more than that.

BIG difference on your AIC.

It all depends what you mean by "learn loads".
If we take it literally, then isnt the system failing you?
After all entry level is Advanced/OWI, that means you can
(and are) already teaching students in OW.

So it depends if "Loads" means new teaching techniques or
working on what should be A1 already.

All depends on what you think the AIC/AIE is trying to acheive.

TerryH

PeteM

21-09-2004, 08:58

:=I thought that was almost the case anyway, don't have my instructors manual to hand but I was under the impression that about a third to half of the lessons had to be done by an AI.

Three out of eight sounds like between a third and half to me ;-)

gridler

21-09-2004, 09:25

provocative and not worthy of a reply

terryh

21-09-2004, 10:48

provocative and not worthy of a reply

Sorry you think that way. It was not intended to be
provocative and was written entirly in the third party so
not directed at you.

I'm just trying to get away from the concept that advanced
courses are there to brush up on skills that should already
be there PRIOR to even thinking about going on them.

TerryH

gridler

21-09-2004, 12:13

terryh

21-09-2004, 12:42

John Williams has said all that there is to be said see mikes link I agree 100% with Johns comments, the short answer Terry is if you are not going to benefit from being a AI then maybe your motives are wrong any way because surely its not just about self gratification its how we put somthing back. unless I am missing somthing is this not what BSAC is all about. dont do it if you dont want to, sounds like to are well qualified to state that the grade is worth diddly squat seeing as you have not obtained the qualification. I must stop because I am biting and your thread does not warrant that.

Firstly, STOP!

This was never intended as a troll or to slag of the grade.
We have 3x VERY active and competent OWI's in our club who
between them do well over 30 diver certs each year across the
board.

As TO my job is to progress training and get the best out of
each individual. No problems upto DL as many of our dives are
over 35m and involve deco, so that is a goal in it's own right.
You can even say the same for Advanced so as to be one step
ahead of those you are teaching.

But what of the OWI's? I've done my AIC, but they dont see the
point. I'd like to say that they are wrong, but honestly based
on what I've seen myself and been told by others on the same
courses I can't.

So there you have it. We put a LOT and I mean a LOT back into
BSAC, so I'll forgive you for the suggestion we dont. Trouble
is that to argue the case for further education at this level
you have to explain relevancy. Can you? Cause I can't.

TerryH

Dave

21-09-2004, 21:36

A real rarity, but I do agree with Terry. Surely the idea of any course is to advance upon what should already be known rather than to do it again.

I have found this problem a lot with BSAC courses ( although have not done the AIC so cannot comment on it)where too much time is spent teaching what should already be known. If the AI is like this, then really what is the point?

I haven't taken AI for a couple of reasons; one being that it isn't exactly easy to do here and the other being that I don't feel that it really gives much that I can't already do at OWI.

Dave

gridler

21-09-2004, 22:33

David Walker

21-09-2004, 22:44

It does not suit everyone, I am led to believe that things may change as the gap from OWI to AI is small on paper but large in effort and the gap to NI is even bigger.

From what I can see the benefit in what you are able to teach is basically 2/3 lectures from AD, and ITS. Purely from that perspective there seems little reason to do it unless you are keen to go on to instructor training. What you might get from it though is a side-benefit, in that you are spending a lot of time in the company of other instructors. If you do that regularly anyway then you might not get much out of it, if you are usually confined within your branch, with little contact with outside instructors, you might become 'stuck in your ways' and the experience of mixing with other instructors might be a lot more beneficial for that type of person.

David

terryh

22-09-2004, 01:15

I agree that the work required to become an AI is not truly reflected in the grade, but access to the IDTC for example is the main advantage, teaching on IFC and OWI courses, I did the course and I saw different ways of teaching diving not just from the NI but the others on the course. What I take exception to is people putting the grade down when they have not taken the exam. It does not suit everyone, I am led to believe that things may change as the gap from OWI to AI is small on paper but large in effort and the gap to NI is even bigger. The simple answer is have a go and if like Terry you do not learn anything then so be it, I would be supprised. This whole thread smacks of being a troll and I think I bit.

Sorry, but nobody is putting the grade down, that's your interpretation. What has always been discussed is it's
relevancy.

While the syllabus of a course can be dire, a good Instructor
can make it fun and informative. So it is entirly possible to
attend the worse course in the world and still think it's
great. Instead, how about asking all those who have been on
more than one course, what they thought?

If your saying AI is the first rung of Instructor trainer,
fine we wont bother and stick to just teaching at OWI level.

If however it's been championed as some sort of Instructor
tune-up, then that is IMO very wrong.

TerryH

gridler

22-09-2004, 09:31

Sorry, but nobody is putting the grade down, that's your interpretation. What has always been discussed is it's
relevancy.

While the syllabus of a course can be dire, a good Instructor
can make it fun and informative. So it is entirly possible to
attend the worse course in the world and still think it's
great. Instead, how about asking all those who have been on
more than one course, what they thought?

Have I missed something is this not whats happening, If in your opion the course is irrelevant and can not serve you then do not do it, I gained a lot from the course it has made me think about teaching diving and how I delivar the message. It is set at the right leval. You clearly feel that you above that leval and well you may be so don't do it. I would say to all thoses thinking about doing the course it is one of the best courses I have done. Going to Gozo made a difference because you live it. If you are thinking about it don't think just get on the course. Am I a better instructor maybe maybe not but I have learnt differnt ways of teaching and presenting diving related lessons, and I am not taliking about lectures I am talking about in water lessons.

If your saying AI is the first rung of Instructor trainer,
fine we wont bother and stick to just teaching at OWI level.

and who teachs the OWI if we adopt that approach, well balanced again. This smacks of throwing your dummy out.

If however it's been championed as some sort of Instructor
tune-up, then that is IMO very wrong.

Only by you, once again provocative and not worthy of dialogue

TerryH

terryh

22-09-2004, 12:02

:=
:=
:=Sorry, but nobody is putting the grade down, that's your interpretation. What has always been discussed is it's
:=relevancy.
:=
:=While the syllabus of a course can be dire, a good Instructor
:=can make it fun and informative. So it is entirly possible to
:=attend the worse course in the world and still think it's
:=great. Instead, how about asking all those who have been on
:=more than one course, what they thought?

Have I missed something is this not whats happening, If in your opion the course is irrelevant and can not serve you then do not do it, I gained a lot from the course it has made me think about teaching diving and how I delivar the message. It is set at the right leval. You clearly feel that you above that leval and well you may be so don't do it. I would say to all thoses thinking about doing the course it is one of the best courses I have done. Going to Gozo made a difference because you live it. If you are thinking about it don't think just get on the course. Am I a better instructor maybe maybe not but I have learnt differnt ways of teaching and presenting diving related lessons, and I am not taliking about lectures I am talking about in water lessons.

:=
:=If your saying AI is the first rung of Instructor trainer,
:=fine we wont bother and stick to just teaching at OWI level.

and who teachs the OWI if we adopt that approach, well balanced again. This smacks of throwing your dummy out.
:=
:=If however it's been championed as some sort of Instructor
:=tune-up, then that is IMO very wrong.

Only by you, once again provocative and not worthy of dialogue
:=

Last go at getting the, message across and this time please
be objective.

Your experince on the AIC/AE was undoubtedley positive, why?
Because you did an combined event.

For a whole week you are immersed in teaching and teaching
diving. On top of that it's a holiday and a time to gel with
your fellow Instructors. I train groups abroad and whatever
the course we are on, the results are always good.

So whats does that say? Good course or good enviroment to do
the course? Same as a good Instructor can make anything good,
dont the suroundings contribute in the same way.

My point is not that I think I am better than the course,
(I dont), I just dont see what it can give me more than what
I know already. Maybe it's because my colegues and myself
already have that exposure to differing techniques and get
shedloads of actual in water experience.

I really dont think we are alone in all this and if you are
so concerned about the Instructor Trainer route, then isnt
those who already have that experience exactly the sort of
Instructor that the course/BSAC should be trying to attract.

Instead of the throwaway line of "not worthy of dialogue"
How about discussing how the course could be made more
relevant and attract back people like myself.

TerryH

gridler

22-09-2004, 14:13

Dave

22-09-2004, 14:30

You should pass with 100% and maybe even win an award!!!!

Ahh. But here there is an issue. BSAC won't allow people to just sit the exam, they insist on the course being undertaken first. Also, unless doing a combined event, they do not allow booking for an exam until after the course is completed.

What is learned on the course may be interesting, but after completing the exam, what extra can you teach; not a great deal.

Saying that it allows access to IT is only of interest, i posit, to a minority of potential candiates

For me, I don't drive boats, don't dive from small boats and have v limited opportunities to take the course. IT entry is pretty much irrelevant where I am currently based; my question is what tangible benefit would I get from spending 4 days of my next 14 days in Europe doing the course and exam ( assuming that I do it through a school rather than direct so that I can actually book the 2 bits )

Dave

terryh

22-09-2004, 14:31

Reading between the lines you want somthing for nothing, if you want to be an AI do the exam. If you think thats it is irrelevant don't. I am not going to keep feeding you ammo. I have said why I think it is relevant, you belive that you are there already, in which case just take the exam then say if it is irelevant or not. You should pass with 100% and maybe even win an award!!!!

Too much.

Despite on EVERY post I've tried to be objective and further
the discusion, you seem fit to turn it into a personal attack.

If the course/exam is as you say it is, then why the lack of
OWI's taking it? Why the BSAC push to get more on it?
Why only a handful of courses a year?

All this should be telling you something, but rather than work
out the issues, you are intent on making it personal.

So as far as you are concerned my friend. End of discussion.
Now if anybody else wants a chat about the issue ....

TerryH

gridler

22-09-2004, 19:34

Dave

You will not really benefit at all, other than in the area that we have already covered, IT training is not a field where you are likley to dabble in nor SDC running then stay as you are .

john kendall

22-09-2004, 21:00

It's not often that I find myself agreeing with Terry, however on this issue I can see where he is coming from.

I am an AD and OWI, Lets hypothetically say that I'm thinking about becoming an AI since that is the next BSAC qualifcation that I'd look at.

What additional benefits do I gain from doing the course and Exam? Well I could teach all of AD in branch, so that would be quite useful, but at the same time it's only 3 lessons that I can't teach now, and I could just get someone in from Region to teach them. It is the first step on the Instructor training ladder, but frankly I don't have the time to do that anyway at the moment, and If I did head down that route my branch would lose one of its core Instructors.

Lets look at it from the other direction, What do I lose if I do it. Well there is the cost of the course, and the exam, and the time to take them.

So Should I do it?
My diving has several parts, I do a lot of teaching in branch, and do some SD level diving to help develop divers in branch, but most of my "fun" diving is Trimix diving, with long deco hangs. So doing AI would not help me with my fun diving. It might help me with my in branch diving but I doubt it (However would like to hear reasons why it might)

So what is the point of this post? Am I trying to put down the AI qualification? No, I just think that there is little point in me doing it. And this is probably where the problem lies. I don't see the point in doing it, I know several other AD/OWIs who think the same. This tells us that this course is not being marketed well, people can't see the point, so either there is a good reason for doing it, and it's not known, or there isn't a lot of point. I'm hoping that it's the former, and that someone out there can tell us what the good reasons are.

John

Dave

22-09-2004, 21:37

Dave

You will not really benefit at all, other than in the area that we have already covered, IT training is not a field where you are likley to dabble in nor SDC running then stay as you are .

SDC running does not require to be an Advanced Instructor except for Dive Planning and Marshalling which requires the Chief Instructor to be an AI, so being an AI does not add anything there.

Dave

PeteM

23-09-2004, 09:23

It's not often that I find myself agreeing with Terry, however on this issue I can see where he is coming from.

Much as it is a surprise I'll go along with that. I only have a limited amount fo money/time to spend on diving and the cost/benefits as I percieve them do not add up. I think it would be better for me and the branch to spend four days getting some DL's through so we can get a few more OWI's

Michelle Haywood

23-09-2004, 10:22

Having read through all of this discussion, I thought I might make a comment or two from the viewpoint of someone who has actually done the AIC.....

I came through the new PIE/TIE route to my OWI and with the way the training is now structured, for me it seemed the logical next step was to move on to AI. I don't know where anyone else did their PIE, but mine was in Horsea...a different environment to where I do most of my diving, at sea, which is what the AI is based around. The Club I belong to has 3 RIBs and they are in use every weekend from April to October, and so checking my teaching was up to standard in the correct enviroment seemed sensible.

So what did I think to the course? It consolidated everything I was already doing (I paid attention on the IFC and OWIC!) but added new dimensions too. The extra skills needed to teach at sea (from shore and boat) all came into play. The NIs have a wealth of experience and are there to share ideas (and to steal any good ones that you might have too!). I was the first person in my branch to do AI (and we have no NIs), and so I don't have access to that level of instructor within my club.

As the next step on the ITS ladder it is valuable. You get taught stuff that was never in IFC/OWIC, such as how to critique another instructor's teaching, which builds towards you being able to help prepare others for IFC/TIE/OWIC/PIE.

On the personal side, it's also made me sort myself out to look at doing FCD. The teamwork and practical exercises are much more in line with what is in FCD. Suddenly, it doesn't look like such a big step for me anymore.

The course was hard work. I came through the old AD scheme, and never had to do S&R or ADT, but I needed skills from those courses to get me through, and had to learn fast. The exam, well just the same as every BSAC exam, demonstrate that you can do what you were taught on the course and you'll be fine.

We have CIs who have real problems with me being an AI - though none of them actually want to go and see what the fuss is about, it would appear! The irony is that I reckon most of them would have no problem passing it, and probably a lot of fun too.

But at the end of the day, we each have to be happy where we are. If you don't want to move on to AI, then obviously don't do it, but please don't put down the achievement of those who have.

paul beal

23-09-2004, 10:27

gridler

23-09-2004, 10:56

PeteM

23-09-2004, 10:57

You cannot ever say that a particular course that is currently above your qualification will not teach you anything.

and where exactly did I say that???

As to what AI allows you to do, well I am keen to get involved in regional ITS courses.

I'm not hence my comment

I do not think you can rubbish a qualification unless you have completed it - at the end of the day, what does FCD allow you to do that AD doesn't??. I suggest you do your AIE and if you are the great diver/instructor you claim to be you will pass. Otherwise you might hit the ground with a bit of a bump!

Where did I rubbish the qualification???

Where did I say I was a great diver/instructor???

Before you start slagging me off I suggest you trying reading what I posted! All I said was I did not think it made sense for me and I have other things I feel I would rather spend my time and money on.

Ready and waiting for abuse.

No abuse from me but plenty from you apparently

P

paul beal

23-09-2004, 11:58

Pete,

Very sorry, I wasn't aiming anything at you. It was Terry who said that he didn't think the qualification was worth anything and that he can do it all already.

Paul

PeteM

23-09-2004, 12:10

Very sorry, I wasn't aiming anything at you. It was Terry who said that he didn't think the qualification was worth anything and that he can do it all already.

Fair enough.

Iain Aitchison

23-09-2004, 12:24

Thank you paul and Michelle, put much better than I did but the same message. I also belive that in time the gap from OWI to AI will grow and the AI to NI will reduce. This is the feeling I get talking to others.

Garry

Hi Garry,

my impression is that the current ITDC/IT level which still seems to be an option between AI and NI will become at least as far as the ITDC is concerned, a requirement for NIE.

NI will therefore become better trained to lead ITS and event generally and the "terror" of the NIE will reduce somewhat.

This would support the trend to a more modular approach.

What will remain - only my opinion - is that the bridge to NIE from AD/OWIC will still require the AIC, AIE, FCD and possibly IT before going into a final exam (NIE) which will primarily test the examination of AI and FCD and event leadership ability.

One thing is sure the AI level brought me a long way beyond AD and helped the preperation for FCD. All of the FCD who passed on the event I did, were already AI, so it must be relevant in some way? It was worth it too.

regards Iain

gridler

23-09-2004, 12:40

Iain

I think you are right and I can see in time the ITDC becoming part of the AIC, the shift and the increased use on the AIC towards instructor critic would show that they are already moving that way. The fact that you mentioned FCD (as did Michelle) I belived that it was up there with Gods until I did my AI course,now it seems very achieveable. Albeit requiring dedication and application.

Garry

terryh

23-09-2004, 12:45

I did my AIE about 6 months ago and when I found out I had passed it was a great feeling. I did a hell of a lot of work for the exam including many hours of open water teaching, formulating lesson plans, writing and practicing the lecture and 2 days of preparation in the garage making props such as shotlines, shot weights and other bits and pieces.

You cannot ever say that a particular course that is currently above your qualification will not teach you anything. I find that comment very big-headed. If you read the notes for any SDC you are requested to turn up with an open mind. When I did my AIC I was DO of my club, involved in a lot of teaching, some of it from boats (Bearing in mind LUUSAC qualifies 50 SDs, 20 DLs and the odd AD every year) and I still learnt a lot from the NIs teaching us as well as from the other students on the course. Even if I thought I could teach something perfectly, it made me sit back and see that me "perfect" way is not the only way and there are other, maybe more effective ways of doing things.

As to what AI allows you to do, well I am keen to get involved in regional ITS courses. I enjoy coaching instructors in-branch and would like to get involved at a regional level. Advanced diver needs an AI for a very large part of the syllabus (which constitutes 1 lecture and 2 practical sessions). The AP lessons mentioned above are practical lessons, one being a weekend trip. Try getting someone from your region to come along on a weekend away, pay full whack (as I would) and therefore make it affordable for everyone else - not easy, I tried!

The theory session that require an AI are one lecture (about 2 hours of material) and one practical planning session (again about a 2 hour lesson). The good thing about me being an AI within the branch is that I can split these lessons down to 30-45 min sessions. This way, the potential advanced divers in the club (who are mostly busy with running the club) can actually commit to lectures as well as organising the trainees/ expeditions/ etc etc and we don't have to rely on outside help for 4-6 sessions.

I do not think you can rubbish a qualification unless you have completed it - at the end of the day, what does FCD allow you to do that AD doesn't??. I suggest you do your AIE and if you are the great diver/instructor you claim to be you will pass. Otherwise you might hit the ground with a bit of a bump!

Ready and waiting for abuse.

Paul

Tell me Paul, why did you go on your AIC/AIE?
Was it the BSAC sales pitch?
Maybe your peers advising you to go?
Or that Instructor Trainer bit?

Whatever the reason, you had a pre-conceived idea of what was
going to happen and what you were going to get out of it in
the end. Based on this info you went for it and had a good
course/result, well done.

Now look at it from somebody who doesnt even get past the 1st
stage. He/she doesnt see an advantage reading the sales pitch.
His/her peers can't awnser truthfully, based on there
experience and they dont want to get involved in IT (yet).

Now you (and others) say, that if you dont like it then dont do
it. Fine, but who are you saying this to?

Battle hardened Instructors who have been doing the job for how
many years? Instructors that already interact with other clubs
and run combined courses.

Just maybe these are EXACTLY the sort of Instructor that the
AIC/AIE and therefore the training scheme should be going after.

Take a gander at Weymouth or any other diving center. Do you
think those diver lifts springing up on all the hardboats
are there for single 12's and 20m jaunts?
Nope, it's for twins and possible even stages.

Diving has changed dramaticly (and I mean big time) in the past
few years. BSAC needs to change and adapt with it.
Otherwise you get the rediculous situation where a supposed
Advanced Instructor cant even work out the ppO2/MOD of a diver
on 32% off a boat he was supposed to be Marshalling (Before you
ask, happend on a shared boat in the Solent a few months ago).

Bottom line here is that, do we want AI to be a true Advanced
Instructor. To elivate the OWI to a higher level or is it just
more of the same. Bit like PADI OW & AOW. Not Advanced, but
Advanced open water. Just means more open water!

TerryH

paul beal

23-09-2004, 13:12

I have written this as answers to Terry's post, but would welcome comments about any of it.

Tell me Paul, why did you go on your AIC/AIE?
Was it the BSAC sales pitch?
Maybe your peers advising you to go?
Or that Instructor Trainer bit?

O.K, we had an advanced instructor in our club, I took over DO from him, between us we ran the advanced diver syllabus (which then was mostly SDCs) and were qualifying several approved instructors in the mean time. I had done by AIC because I wanted to attend it and a couple of us had been talking about it for a while. I did my AIE 2 years after by AIC because the above AI is now running a liveaboard in Egypt and therefore was not around to teach the AI related material. We were relying on the region to teach bits and pieces which is fine, and we appreciated their efforts but I decided to go for my AI so I could do everything myself and easily have the odd understudy.

Whatever the reason, you had a pre-conceived idea of what was
going to happen and what you were going to get out of it in
the end. Based on this info you went for it and had a good
course/result, well done.

Now look at it from somebody who doesnt even get past the 1st
stage. He/she doesnt see an advantage reading the sales pitch.
His/her peers can't awnser truthfully, based on there
experience and they dont want to get involved in IT (yet).

Now you (and others) say, that if you dont like it then dont do
it. Fine, but who are you saying this to?

Battle hardened Instructors who have been doing the job for how
many years? Instructors that already interact with other clubs
and run combined courses.

Just maybe these are EXACTLY the sort of Instructor that the
AIC/AIE and therefore the training scheme should be going after.

Take a gander at Weymouth or any other diving center. Do you
think those diver lifts springing up on all the hardboats
are there for single 12's and 20m jaunts?
Nope, it's for twins and possible even stages.

So is your point that the AI syllabus/qualification should be marketted better? I agree that it is the "battle hardened" instructors who we need to target for qualifying as AIs, after all we do need AIs in the country otherwise we will (admittedly not for many years) end up where there are no NIs and therefore no instructor courses being run - which is obviously bad for the sport.

So how should we persuade potential AIs, try to change the attitude a bit. Maybe there are too many pre-concieved ideas around. I have got an account of my experiences that I am happy to pass on. A thread was started a while ago about the boat aspect which was something I was worried out - Nick Kay has recently reiterated my thoughts that with hindsight this is not a big hassle - is it currently perceived as one? Should there be more preparation, turning up at an AIE and failing is, I imagine one of the worst things that could happen to you as an instructor - people are certainly scared of this as conversations over beers before and during the exam will testify. What could we as members, or BSAC as an organisation do about this?

Diving has changed dramaticly (and I mean big time) in the past
few years. BSAC needs to change and adapt with it.
Otherwise you get the rediculous situation where a supposed
Advanced Instructor cant even work out the ppO2/MOD of a diver
on 32% off a boat he was supposed to be Marshalling (Before you
ask, happend on a shared boat in the Solent a few months ago).

Bottom line here is that, do we want AI to be a true Advanced
Instructor. To elivate the OWI to a higher level or is it just
more of the same. Bit like PADI OW & AOW. Not Advanced, but
Advanced open water. Just means more open water!

Reasonable comment, but what do you mean by more advanced, should it only be FCDs who do AI? During my AIE I could not have got away without knowing a great many things, I was caught out on occasions. Maybe this goes back to having another preparation course between AIC and AIE??

Could I turn your first questions around slightly? What is your main reason for NOT doing AI apart from time issues and feeling that you would not learn anything else - if you have any?

Paul

TerryH

terryh

23-09-2004, 13:34

Pete,

Very sorry, I wasn't aiming anything at you. It was Terry who said that he didn't think the qualification was worth anything and that he can do it all already.

Paul

ABSOLUTE ******! Do you want to try reading the posts again.
My argument is relevancy. It may be relevant to you, not to me.

Why do you think the title is - Why AI?

If you would do me the courtesy of actually reading my post
I said that on my AIC I learnt nothing. That doesnt, mean that
I'm better than the grade or that I wouldnt have learnt on the
previous or subsequent course, just that on that particuar
course on those days I learnt nothing.

I have absolutely no idea if I would pass or fail the exam
as I havnt taken it. The point has ALWAYS been, for very
active Instructors like myself (and we already know, there
are a lot of us) - Why AI?

TerryH

paul beal

23-09-2004, 13:59

Terry,

Quoting you:

I just dont see what it can give me more than what
I know already.

.........

Paul

john kendall

23-09-2004, 14:12

So is your point that the AI syllabus/qualification should be marketted better?

Yes, Part of it is that. I'm sure there are good reasons for me to go and do the AIC, and then try the exam, I just don't know what they are. I have No interest at the moment in going onto the ITS, so what are the other benefits to me?
(I know this sounds very selfish, it's not meant to, I just can't see how it helps Me)

I agree that it is the "battle hardened" instructors who we need to target for qualifying as AIs, after all we do need AIs in the country otherwise we will (admittedly not for many years) end up where there are no NIs and therefore no instructor courses being run - which is obviously bad for the sport.

There is that, but are AIs useful outside of the ITS? Is it just a stepping stone for Instructor Trainers?

So how should we persuade potential AIs, try to change the attitude a bit. Maybe there are too many pre-concieved ideas around. I have got an account of my experiences that I am happy to pass on. A thread was started a while ago about the boat aspect which was something I was worried out - Nick Kay has recently reiterated my thoughts that with hindsight this is not a big hassle - is it currently perceived as one? Should there be more preparation, turning up at an AIE and failing is, I imagine one of the worst things that could happen to you as an instructor - people are certainly scared of this as conversations over beers before and during the exam will testify. What could we as members, or BSAC as an organisation do about this?

Ding! This I think is what it is all about. Maybe part of it is taking a good hard look at what "Advanced" actually is. I've come across several Advanced instructors whose diving skills I don't rate very highly, (I'm not saying that all AIs are the same) and that is not a great advert for the grade. I'd much rather be stretched, and have to learn a lot on the course.

:=Diving has changed dramaticly (and I mean big time) in the past
:=few years. BSAC needs to change and adapt with it.
:=Otherwise you get the rediculous situation where a supposed
:=Advanced Instructor cant even work out the ppO2/MOD of a diver
:=on 32% off a boat he was supposed to be Marshalling (Before you
:=ask, happend on a shared boat in the Solent a few months ago).
:=
:=Bottom line here is that, do we want AI to be a true Advanced
:=Instructor. To elivate the OWI to a higher level or is it just
:=more of the same. Bit like PADI OW & AOW. Not Advanced, but
:=Advanced open water. Just means more open water!

Reasonable comment, but what do you mean by more advanced, should it only be FCDs who do AI? During my AIE I could not have got away without knowing a great many things, I was caught out on occasions. Maybe this goes back to having another preparation course between AIC and AIE??

Could I turn your first questions around slightly? What is your main reason for NOT doing AI apart from time issues and feeling that you would not learn anything else - if you have any?

You've answered it already. I have limited time to devote to courses, and If I have to pick between a course that I know I will learn a lot on, and one where I feel it is just jumping through a hoop to get a grade, I'll go with the learning every time.

In todays world, all activities are fighting for peoples time. If there is not a perceived benefit from doing the course, then noone will do it. In some places AI is seen as the natural next step, and almost like a badge of office, in others it is seen as a badge to be collected.

John

David Walker

23-09-2004, 14:32

:=So is your point that the AI syllabus/qualification should be marketted better?

Yes, Part of it is that. I'm sure there are good reasons for me to go and do the AIC, and then try the exam, I just don't know what they are. I have No interest at the moment in going onto the ITS, so what are the other benefits to me?

I think a survey of most instructors would turn up very similar ideas. From the people I know, most seem to get to AD/OWI and stop, unless they just like the sound of the title, or have specific ambitions to do something more in terms of teaching etc.
But is it just bad marketing, or is it that the course isn't quite what it should be? If as I think Terry said you can have an AI who knows nothing about Nitrox, then that is probably not a good position to be in - OK we might not expect them to be able to teach it, but I think at that level you should really be aware of what it is, how it's used, things like that. In reality I'm fairly surprised that Nitrox isn't a prerequisite for AD, never mind AI. By AI level you'd expect them to have a good knowledge about everything, and essentially done just about all of the SDCs going. There's no reason for them not to have done all the first aid / lifesaver stuff, Adv. nitrox is something that by that stage you'd have expected them to have at least looked at, OK maybe they don't do lots of deeper stuff so don't need extended range and accelerated deco type things, things like charts, tides, dive planning, marshalling should all be done without any problem really...

I think maybe there's not all that much more to learn in terms of instruction technique, in the sense that you wouldn't necessarily learn any more about instruction on an AI course than by doing a second OWI course. In reality, if you can teach you can teach - its the things that you are teaching that change, and that is only really reflected in your own knowledge and through becoming an approved instructor for certain SDCs.

Maybe three levels of instructors are too much? Is there so much more to learn about instruction (which is distinctly separate from the actual thing you are teaching) beyond OWI? A practiced and expereinced OWI should be pretty well sorted with their own instruction technique, and should be able to safely pass on their own skills to pretty much anyone in an efficient manner. So given that they can do that, if they know all about for example Dive Planning and Marshalling, what is it in DPM that makes that instructor incapable of teaching it compared to someone who did an AI course?

David

terryh

23-09-2004, 14:50

Terry,

Quoting you:

I just dont see what it can give me more than what
I know already.

.........

Paul that doesnt read that I'm better than the grade, just
that it has nothing (at the moment) to offer me more than
what I know already. That makes me equal to it, not better.

Some may want the quodos associated with the badge, but I'm
not a badge collector and like others have said, rather spend
my time teaching more students.

TerryH

David Walker

23-09-2004, 17:24

I don't know where anyone else did their PIE, but mine was in Horsea...a different environment to where I do most of my diving, at sea, which is what the AI is based around. The Club I belong to has 3 RIBs and they are in use every weekend from April to October, and so checking my teaching was up to standard in the correct enviroment seemed sensible.

I'm not particularly for or against the AIC, I haven't done it myself - not at that level to even consider it at the moment.

What you say above is possibly a little worrying though. If you are "checking [your] teaching [is] up to standard in the correct environment" after what I expect is probably many years of teaching in that environment as an OWI then that seems odd. Simplified, either you are saying that as an OWI you (or anyone) are not up to teaching in the sea, or that the AD doesn't add much in that area. If you have already been teaching in the sea for probably several years, then being taught how to do that in the AIC seems to be a little late - maybe that should be considered in OWI? And if there are specific skills for teaching in the sea that are so important and complex not to include in OWI, then why can OWIs teach in the sea anyway?
Just seems odd.

David

Dave

23-09-2004, 21:57

Could I turn your first questions around slightly? What is your main reason for NOT doing AI apart from time issues and feeling that you would not learn anything else - if you have any?

One reason why I never found any point to doing it was that it has little obvious practical benefit. It's a lot of time n effort for little reward. To me there is something wrong if it comes to having to ask someone for specific reasons not to do it. It seems to me that BSAC have arbitrarily decided to make a couple of elements of the AD course require an AI to almost try to blackmail some interest.

If the DPM course ( or the elements within AD that contain it ) requires special skills/knowledge in order to teach it, why is it not just made an SDC for which approved instructor status is required and allow any OWI to become approved for it ( other than the fact that it would no longer give any reason to do AI other than for progression to NI or IT ) ?

Given that to attain OWI, the level of knowledge requirement is only DL, I could understand having some form assesment for teaching AD; e.g. in the same way that certain SDCs currently require approved instructor rating, the same could be applicable to teaching AD, plus ensuring that the instructor can demonstrate the theory knowledge.

Dave

terryh

24-09-2004, 00:34

Could I turn your first questions around slightly? What is your main reason for NOT doing AI apart from time issues and feeling that you would not learn anything else - if you have any?

Paul

Main reason?
Let's see if a name change makes a difference .......

AOWI - Advanced Open Water Instructor.
An Open water Instructor that has demonstrated an elevated
level of competence in open water training.

Is that what the grade is trying to acheive? Because if it is
then isnt it just possible that very active OWI's with years
of experience, that have been doing the job and may even have
moved into the technical realm, may already have that
competence? If they have never been into badge collecting
do you think that they need the BSAC pat on the back?

Beef up the AIC and turn it into an AOWIC. Make it a constant
assessment effort. At the end of it you can teach all parts of
Adv.

Then have the AI, but now include all approved SDC's, incuding
Nitrox/ERD etc. Make an advanced mean something more than
just a competent OWI.

TerryH

nick kay

24-09-2004, 09:23

Thoughts / discussion points...

1. AI is there to raise instructor standards, i.e. its a standard to aim at once you've become an OWI.
Problem - whats in it for the instructor other than the badge / self satisfaction. If little/nothing, then who's likely to take the course / exam?
Problem - How do you maintain the standards of any instructor once they've qualified?, i.e. make sure they're up-to-date, standards haven't dropped, their skills are up to scratch? How about a 3 yearly "review/assessment"? Not a chance - can hear the screams of protest re cost/time/we'll lose instructors

2. OWI is there to teach in the pool / closed water (i.e. quarries). AI is there to teach off boats
Problem - as most clubs don't have boats, there's likely to be little take-up for AIs.
- Don't most clubs teach in the pool, qualify their divers in a quarry and "do the experience dives" as literally that - diving, i.e. little "direct" training off boats. So, even if clubs/branches don't have RHIBs, and do their diving off hard boats, don't most of them "dive" and not "train"

3. AI is there to teach advanced skills (i.e. SDCs)
- Therefore OWI & "approved instructor status" for a given set of SDCs = AI and only AIs can teach SDCs
- Problem - we no longer "approve" Instructors for "standard" SDCs (the exceptions being Nitrox, ERD, Boat Handling).
- Problem - assuming you brought back "authorisation", in order to set/maintain standards, who could do it? (Regional Level?)
- Problem - which SDCs would you include? O2, DPM, PRM definitely, ADT, S&R, FAD, CPF - possibly. BH - no, most clubs don't have RHIBs. Nitrox - possibly, though it'd be better to bring Nitrox into branch/club diving / the main diver training syllabus (and from an early point / level), ERD - no.

4. AI is there as the foundation for Instructor Trainer
Problem - In which case, the syllabus for AI/C needs to be modified
Problem - If you don't want to become an Instructor Trainer, then why become an AI

5. AI is there as a stage between OWI and NI
Problem - there must be some purpose for the grade other than it being an interim step to an even higher grade

Of the above (and there are likely to be many other arguments), what about the following:

AI/C and AI/E are there to:
1. Develop Instructor skills, particularly when teaching in groups (i.e. SDCs, Instructor Training)
2. Provide a "known standard" for SDCs
3. Only AIs can "boss" SDCs (ignoring BH, ERD)
4. OWIs can teach on SDCs under the direct supervision of an AI
5. Provide the foundation for IT

Therefore, what if the AI/E became the running/instructing of a nominated SDC (say ADT, S&R or Nitrox):
- You get the lectures, organisational skills, working in teams, teaching underwater
- You get the introduction to IT as it'd be AIs that would be responsible for the SDCs and the OWIs that taught on them
5. This would remain as a logical step towards NI

Does this make sense / would OWIs get emough out of this to make them want to become AIs?

Michelle Haywood

24-09-2004, 10:34

No, I'm definitely not saying that OWIs are not up to teaching in the sea! The AIC doesn't teach how to teach at sea, but it pulls all the teaching theory together with diving. It covers all the stuff from basic training (which is what I teach most of) but adds in all the (originally) SDC techniques, and pushes you to think beyond standard recieved wisdom.

The big difference between the AIE and PIE was that on the PIE you teach one element, with one brief/debrief, taken from anything on the OD/SD syllabus. In the AIE you have 7 separate modules, and you are continuously assessed even when you are not actually doing part of the exam. The classroom teaching part is a full hour, not the ten minutes you get in the TIE. So it is much closer to what you actually do when you are teaching.

I did the combined AIC/E rather than a separate AIC, because I was confident enough that my skills were up to doing the course and then running straight into the exam. For newly qualified OWIs who want to do more teaching I would probably recommend that they did the AIC, then consolidated for a while before the AIE. I learn new stuff everytime I go diving, so even though I was confident in my skill level I still learnt loads from it. I wasn't a bad instructor before, but the AI has helped me refine my teaching and add extra elements into it.

David Walker

24-09-2004, 12:14

2. OWI is there to teach in the pool / closed water (i.e. quarries). AI is there to teach off boats
Problem - as most clubs don't have boats, there's likely to be little take-up for AIs.
- Don't most clubs teach in the pool, qualify their divers in a quarry and "do the experience dives" as literally that - diving, i.e. little "direct" training off boats. So, even if clubs/branches don't have RHIBs, and do their diving off hard boats, don't most of them "dive" and not "train"

No no no no - very bad! The absolute worst thing BSAC could do is encourage people into quarries! It's safer for something like OD, possibly SD, but by the time you're doing DL you should be able to perform any skill safely in the sea. Whats the point in teaching AV+tow if someone can't do it when needed because of the waves / wind? Take this example: I did all my training in Stoney, including the 'skills' bits of DL - I could do it all with no problem, could do mid-water DSMB deployment quickly and easily. Then over the summer when I went back to diving in the sea, I basically had to re-teach myself a new skill sat at 25m - even deploying it sat on top of the wreck it took a long time, because i'd never done it in a current before, and never considered the extra dificulties until I found myself sat there struggling! In my opinion we should ENCOURAGE clubs to teach skills like this in the sea - in the environment in whcih they will be diving.

3. AI is there to teach advanced skills (i.e. SDCs)
- Therefore OWI & "approved instructor status" for a given set of SDCs = AI and only AIs can teach SDCs
- Problem - we no longer "approve" Instructors for "standard" SDCs (the exceptions being Nitrox, ERD, Boat Handling).
- Problem - assuming you brought back "authorisation", in order to set/maintain standards, who could do it? (Regional Level?)
- Problem - which SDCs would you include? O2, DPM, PRM definitely, ADT, S&R, FAD, CPF - possibly. BH - no, most clubs don't have RHIBs. Nitrox - possibly, though it'd be better to bring Nitrox into branch/club diving / the main diver training syllabus (and from an early point / level), ERD - no.

If you say O2 and PRM need an AI, then we're all screwed, no one will ever get past Sports Diver. We don't have any AI's in the branch, so for anything past SD we're going to be wholly reliant on getting external coaches / regional events. Absoutley NOT a good position to be in.
Actually, re-reading what you wrote doesn't make sense. You have to have approved instructor status for lots of SDCs, but you can't teach any of these SDCs until you've done them all and got AI? Sounds like a silly idea. We don't want to try to make people do AI just by making all the things that can currently be taught by an OWI suddenly require AI.

4. AI is there as the foundation for Instructor Trainer
Problem - In which case, the syllabus for AI/C needs to be modified
Problem - If you don't want to become an Instructor Trainer, then why become an AI

So why not scrap AI all together and just have a completely separate Instructor Trainer Course?

5. AI is there as a stage between OWI and NI
Problem - there must be some purpose for the grade other than it being an interim step to an even higher grade

No point in it being there.

Of the above (and there are likely to be many other arguments), what about the following:

AI/C and AI/E are there to:
1. Develop Instructor skills, particularly when teaching in groups (i.e. SDCs, Instructor Training)

So it's the basis of instructor training...

2. Provide a "known standard" for SDCs

No more than currently really - approved instructor status works well, and means OWIs can teach most SDCs. Why unnecessarily limit who can teach just to make a grade more relevant?

3. Only AIs can "boss" SDCs (ignoring BH, ERD)

Again, absolutely rubbish idea! You're just going to stop any club who doesn't have an AI from being able to help its divers to improve and learn new skills.

4. OWIs can teach on SDCs under the direct supervision of an AI

And for us who don't have AIs in the branch? You mention above that you'd just ignore BH because most clubs don't have boats (obviously you don't and you don't want to make it harder for yourself) - yet you fail to consider that not all clubs have members who stay around long term, and from what you're saying any club without an AI can't teach anything above SD.

5. Provide the foundation for IT

Different course entirely!

Does this make sense / would OWIs get emough out of this to make them want to become AIs?

They wouldn't get anything out of it! All you've suggested is changing a lot of things that an OWI can currently teach into things that they need to be an AI to teach - which frankly is crap! Some have said that AI is not relevant / doesn't give any benefits. The solution to that is NOT to just artificially raise the instructor requirements for a few things to force an instructor to do AI. If the course provides no benefit then scrap it - if it is, then maybe some minor modifications to content might help, but certainly should not restrict things an OWI can currently do.

David

David Walker

24-09-2004, 12:20

I wasn't a bad instructor before, but the AI has helped me refine my teaching and add extra elements into it.

Right - now we're getting somewhere! So AI doesn't teach anything (significantly) new, doesn't let you do very much different, but what it is doing is basically helping OWIs to refine their skills - put simply, it is an extended TIE/PIE. Yes?

David

nick kay

24-09-2004, 13:37

David
First off, wan't making recommendations (until the last point), just trying to get the discussion away from people attacking each other and starting to think of the issues...

>>2. OWI is there to teach in the pool / closed water (i.e. quarries). AI is there to teach off boats

No no no no - very bad! The absolute worst thing BSAC could do is encourage people into quarries! It's safer for something like OD, possibly SD, but by the time you're doing DL you should be able to perform any skill safely in the sea. Whats the point in teaching AV+tow if someone can't do it when needed because of the waves / wind? Take this example: I did all my training in Stoney, including the 'skills' bits of DL - I could do it all with no problem, could do mid-water DSMB deployment quickly and easily. Then over the summer when I went back to diving in the sea, I basically had to re-teach myself a new skill sat at 25m - even deploying it sat on top of the wreck it took a long time, because i'd never done it in a current before, and never considered the extra dificulties until I found myself sat there struggling! In my opinion we should ENCOURAGE clubs to teach skills like this in the sea - in the environment in whcih they will be diving.
>> Totally agreed that all skills should be practised in "real" open water.
>> Shame that ADT rarely gets run / is likely to be scrapped...

>>3. AI is there to teach advanced skills (i.e. SDCs)
:=- Therefore OWI & "approved instructor status" for a given set of SDCs = AI
Actually, re-reading what you wrote doesn't make sense. You have to have approved instructor status for lots of SDCs, but you can't teach any of these SDCs until you've done them all and got AI? Sounds like a silly idea. We don't want to try to make people do AI just by making all the things that can currently be taught by an OWI suddenly require AI.

Sorry - was actually saying that if you're an OWI and you have SDC approval for a given set of courses (not specifying as yet, which ones), then you have qualified as an AI

Actually, you don't need "approval" for the vast majority of courses - you just need to be an OWI and have done the course. For example S&R - to boss the course you must be AD/OWI, to teach you must be AD/CI (and have done the course)

>>4. AI is there as the foundation for Instructor Trainer
So why not scrap AI all together and just have a completely separate Instructor Trainer Course?
>> Good argument

>>5. AI is there as a stage between OWI and NI
:=Problem - there must be some purpose for the grade other than it being an interim step to an even higher grade

No point in it being there.
>> That was the point I was making

:=Of the above (and there are likely to be many other arguments), what about the following:
:=
:=AI/C and AI/E are there to:
:=1. Develop Instructor skills, particularly when teaching in groups (i.e. SDCs, Instructor Training)

So it's the basis of instructor training...

:=2. Provide a "known standard" for SDCs

No more than currently really - approved instructor status works well, and means OWIs can teach most SDCs. Why unnecessarily limit who can teach just to make a grade more relevant?
>> I wasn't... I was pointing out that there is no quality checking for sdcs and the skills that are taught. i.e. if you're an OWI and have done an sdc then currently (for the most part) you can teach it. Doesn't mean that you're any good at teaching it.
>> Look at the problems we currently have with trying to maintain standard for Advanced Nitrox... And thats an SDC where there is mandatory "approval" of the instructor...

:=4. OWIs can teach on SDCs under the direct supervision of an AI

And for us who don't have AIs in the branch? You mention above that you'd just ignore BH because most clubs don't have boats (obviously you don't and you don't want to make it harder for yourself) - yet you fail to consider that not all clubs have members who stay around long term, and from what you're saying any club without an AI can't teach anything above SD.
>> Not making it "easier", just pointing out that:
1. Most boats don't have RHIBs
2. At present to become an ABI, (I believe) the route is Boat Handler > Diver Coxwain > ABI (which needs AI status) and therefore, ABIs are rare beasts (as are ERD Instructors)

Mike Halligan

24-09-2004, 13:55

:=And for us who don't have AIs in the branch? You mention above that you'd just ignore BH because most clubs don't have boats (obviously you don't and you don't want to make it harder for yourself) - yet you fail to consider that not all clubs have members who stay around long term, and from what you're saying any club without an AI can't teach anything above SD.
>> Not making it "easier", just pointing out that:
1. Most boats don't have RHIBs
2. At present to become an ABI, (I believe) the route is Boat Handler > Diver Coxwain > ABI (which needs AI status) and therefore, ABIs are rare beasts (as are ERD Instructors)

Beast? probably;
Rare? I doubt it;
AI? I am not

Mike (ABI)

Mike Halligan

24-09-2004, 14:03

Michelle Haywood

24-09-2004, 14:19

:=I wasn't a bad instructor before, but the AI has helped me refine my teaching and add extra elements into it.

Right - now we're getting somewhere! So AI doesn't teach anything (significantly) new, doesn't let you do very much different, but what it is doing is basically helping OWIs to refine their skills - put simply, it is an extended TIE/PIE. Yes?

I came through the new TIE/PIE system, so I already taught in the current, structured way that BSAC has built it's current training around. So, yes, for me it didn't take me much further on in terms of teaching practices. However, on the course with me were several instructors who had come via the CI system, and logged their 12 hours to get their OWI. The AIC for them brought them up to speed with the current teaching practises.

It is the logical next step on from TIE and PIE. These are really limited in their scope and seem geared to assessing that you understood the basic principles of teaching, rather than whether you can handle the whole syllabus. The AI takes that further and tests your actual ability to teach across the whole range of diving skills. The exam takes 2 full days and you don't ever stop. Everyone on my course learnt lots of new stuff (in terms of diving and teaching) from each other and from the NIs. What the new stuff was varied for each of us depending on our previous experience. I teach as part of my job and find BSACs theories on how to teach rather old-fashioned and restrictive, so for me it was a good chance to challenge some of that and show that other ways work too.

I guess it depends what you are looking to do in your diving as to whether you find it a good course or not. In my branch we don't have any NIs or AIs to advise the OWIs, so for me, it was a way of accessing that level of instruction, and at the same time checking I was up to standard. I do the same sort of quality control on my teaching at work. I got merits in half the modules which I put down to the extra stuff I learnt on the course.

My biggest reservation was the debrief at the end when we were invited to progress onto the ITS and thence to NI....I don't think I could get the required physique!

Michelle Haywood

24-09-2004, 14:29

What has been inferred in some posts is perhaps a truly fundamental point. Independent positive feedback is available to any instructor through engagement with the Area/Regional Coaches. If I am in doubt as to the value TO ME of the event, should I not be consulting with both the ITS and my Region?

Mike

I agree entirely, the trouble is that some regions (eg London) are not terribly active. We seem to have a constant battle to find instructors to help out at branch level. We don't have area coaches in place, which leaves us a bit out on a limb.

Added to which, how many times, as an instructor, do you actually go in the water to watch another instructor teaching? Or revisit skills that you don't teach very often just to practise them? I know that I am usually under a fair amount of pressure to get people through OD and SD grades, as are the other instructors in the Club. There aren't enough of us to double up.

Michelle

David Walker

24-09-2004, 14:33

>> Shame that ADT rarely gets run / is likely to be scrapped...

Yeah I liked the look of that, but there only seem to be a few courses per year and haven't been able to get to any of them yet.

Sorry - was actually saying that if you're an OWI and you have SDC approval for a given set of courses (not specifying as yet, which ones), then you have qualified as an AI

Ah right - so its basically just easier saying "i'm an AI" rather than "i'm an OWI who can teach DPM, AND, O2, PRM, ERD, FAFD, RFA, BH,etc, etc...". Makes sense, but then its not really a course, more just submit your evidence to HQ and you get the certificate - like for eg Rescue Specialist SDC, you just wait til you've done the rescue bits then tell HQ.
I think making certain SDCs a requirement for AI would be good, although probably not as the only part.

>> I wasn't... I was pointing out that there is no quality checking for sdcs and the skills that are taught. i.e. if you're an OWI and have done an sdc then currently (for the most part) you can teach it. Doesn't mean that you're any good at teaching it.

Hmmm - but then you aren't really quality checked for OWI either. You are assessed on your ability to teach based on one lecture / lesson. You are assumed to know *what* you are teaching because you have done the course and passed it yourself. There's no reason an SDC should necessarily be any different - you know it well enough to be qualified in that skill, you know how to teach skills (generally) since you're an OWI, so you should be able to put the two together and apply your teaching skill to your own knowledge and teach those SDCs.

>> Not making it "easier", just pointing out that:
1. Most [clubs] don't have RHIBs

From your perspective most clubs don't have RIBs. From my perspective, most clubs don't have AIs...

David

nick kay

24-09-2004, 15:28

Beast? probably;
Rare? I doubt it;
AI? I am not

Mike (ABI)

Apologies - I stand corrected

nick kay

24-09-2004, 15:44

:=>> Shame that ADT rarely gets run / is likely to be scrapped...
Yeah I liked the look of that, but there only seem to be a few courses per year and haven't been able to get to any of them yet.
>> We (Yorkshire Region) ran (just the) one this year. 8 students of which 6 were Advanced Nitrox! Some were taking the SDC to finish off their (old) AD - they hadn't realised they Advanced Nitrox meant they didn't need to do ADT or S&R. We were going to run another this month, but cancelled as only 1 student. Shame the one earlier in the year was a good/fun course - lectures at York Uni and a day's diving off a Hardboat up at The Farnes

:=Sorry - was actually saying that if you're an OWI and you have SDC approval for a given set of courses (not specifying as yet, which ones), then you have qualified as an AI

Ah right - so its basically just easier saying "i'm an AI" rather than "i'm an OWI who can teach DPM, AND, O2, PRM, ERD, FAFD, RFA, BH,etc, etc...". Makes sense, but then its not really a course, more just submit your evidence to HQ and you get the certificate - like for eg Rescue Specialist SDC, you just wait til you've done the rescue bits then tell HQ.
>> Again, was being a devils advocate and saying "why have AI/C and/or AI/E when you could set qualification in a different way).

I think making certain SDCs a requirement for AI would be good, although probably not as the only part.
>> Agreed, did the AI/E this month and having taught ADT and prep'd to teach S&R made a difference (to my own ability to do the exam anyway)

:=>> I wasn't... I was pointing out that there is no quality checking for sdcs and the skills that are taught. i.e. if you're an OWI and have done an sdc then currently (for the most part) you can teach it. Doesn't mean that you're any good at teaching it.

Hmmm - but then you aren't really quality checked for OWI either. You are assessed on your ability to teach based on one lecture / lesson. You are assumed to know *what* you are teaching because you have done the course and passed it yourself. There's no reason an SDC should necessarily be any different - you know it well enough to be qualified in that skill, you know how to teach skills (generally) since you're an OWI, so you should be able to put the two together and apply your teaching skill to your own knowledge and teach those SDCs.
>> Ummm - you should see the skill level of some people presenting themselves for Advanced Nitrox...

:=>> Not making it "easier", just pointing out that:
:=1. Most [clubs] don't have RHIBs

From your perspective most clubs don't have RIBs. From my perspective, most clubs don't have AIs...
>> Agreed - of the 3 clubs (I know of) in my immediate area, 2 don't have AIs - the other (now) has 2
>> Furthermore, some even struggle for OWIs

Mike Halligan

24-09-2004, 16:29

Michelle,

I agree entirely, the trouble is that some regions (eg London) are not terribly active. We seem to have a constant battle to find instructors to help out at branch level. We don't have area coaches in place, which leaves us a bit out on a limb.
And thus we have a self-fulfilling prophecy, by inviting OWIs to help out in the Region and so encouraging them to think of AI, we apply a subtle pressure on Branch committees to develop talent and back-fill for "their" OWIs when diverted by other things.
Interesting what you say about your region, I travelled there for CIE, after going to Yorkshire for ITC, only staying "at home" for OWIC.

Added to which, how many times, as an instructor, do you actually go in the water to watch another instructor teaching? Or revisit skills that you don't teach very often just to practise them? I know that I am usually under a fair amount of pressure to get people through OD and SD grades, as are the other instructors in the Club. There aren't enough of us to double up.
Too true, but by means of SDC-style teaching, particularly where there once was a SDC (O2, PRM), we create opportunities to work together. Also, as TO, I can detach myself from training to support, assist, organise and observe. We also quite deliberately interrupt training of students and run mock events for ADI, AOWI as they approach their examinations.

I guess this is down to folk-memory in our Branch. We have (at least twice) relied on only two instructors - with predictable results. Now, there are 15 (1xNI, 5xOWI, 4xAOWI and 5xADI) who come immediately to mind, in a Branch of 50 members. This was not achieved easily, but took much work and significant steady encouragement from NW Region. It sure as heck pays dividends, though. It means we can do exactly as you say, match students needs to instructor needs - and I have tme to at least consdier AI.

Keep plugging away, you will be surprised what support emerges,

Mike

David Walker

24-09-2004, 17:13

>> We (Yorkshire Region) ran (just the) one this year. 8 students of which 6 were Advanced Nitrox! Some were taking the SDC to finish off their (old) AD - they hadn't realised they Advanced Nitrox meant they didn't need to do ADT or S&R. We were going to run another this month, but cancelled as only 1 student. Shame the one earlier in the year was a good/fun course - lectures at York Uni and a day's diving off a Hardboat up at The Farnes

Ahh - that was the one I was thinking of doing, then it disappeared :O( Unfortunately being away at Uni and not knowing my timetable yet I can't plan things that far in advance so its difficult to book things a long way ahead of time. Maybe next year...

>> Ummm - you should see the skill level of some people presenting themselves for Advanced Nitrox...

The Advanced Nitrox course I recently went on (West Midlands) was very well run - I have to say I don't know of any 'branch' instructors who've done the 'approved' instructor for SDCs mind, generally any that require that we tend to rely on the regional events. I suppose not having any nitrox instructors in branch makes it difficult to get to supervise a course and then to run one under supervision, so it never gets done. Probably varies around the regions depending on the interaction with the area / regional coaches.

>> Furthermore, some even struggle for OWIs

Always a problem - in fact in a year's time our club will likely have significant problems with OWIs, we just don't have the time to get people through. At the minute we've got three students who are OWIs, but all of us are in our final year. There's only one IFC+DL at the minute, for anyone else to be OWI by this time next year they'd need to do all of DL as well as the whole lot of instructor courses (IFC, OWIC, TIE, PIE)... We do have some non-student instructors too, so its not all bad, but it indicates the problem that clubs can have. We've started being more proactive in encouraging people to at least do the IFC to see if they like instructing, hopefully by next year we'll have at least 6 Assistant Instructors who can help out in the pool and do finish their DL and OWI in the following year.

Shame really - my uni club does loads of training with very few instructors, where as my home club does very little training with lots of instructors :O\

David

nick kay

25-09-2004, 09:59

:=>> Ummm - you should see the skill level of some people presenting themselves for Advanced Nitrox...

The Advanced Nitrox course I recently went on (West Midlands) was very well run - I have to say I don't know of any 'branch' instructors who've done the 'approved' instructor for SDCs mind, generally any that require that we tend to rely on the regional events. I suppose not having any nitrox instructors in branch makes it difficult to get to supervise a course and then to run one under supervision, so it never gets done. Probably varies around the regions depending on the interaction with the area / regional coaches.
>> Just to clarify... was referring to the students (not the instructors / assists).

terryh

27-09-2004, 13:28

The Advanced Nitrox course I recently went on (West Midlands) was very well run - I have to say I don't know of any 'branch' instructors who've done the 'approved' instructor for SDCs mind, generally any that require that we tend to rely on the regional events. I suppose not having any nitrox instructors in branch makes it difficult to get to supervise a course and then to run one under supervision, so it never gets done. Probably varies around the regions depending on the interaction with the area / regional coaches.

All our NQI's are Nx Inst. and we do 2/3 in-house a year.

:=>> Furthermore, some even struggle for OWIs

Always a problem - in fact in a year's time our club will likely have significant problems with OWIs, we just don't have the time to get people through. At the minute we've got three students who are OWIs, but all of us are in our final year. There's only one IFC+DL at the minute, for anyone else to be OWI by this time next year they'd need to do all of DL as well as the whole lot of instructor courses (IFC, OWIC, TIE, PIE)... We do have some non-student instructors too, so its not all bad, but it indicates the problem that clubs can have. We've started being more proactive in encouraging people to at least do the IFC to see if they like instructing, hopefully by next year we'll have at least 6 Assistant Instructors who can help out in the pool and do finish their DL and OWI in the following year.

Shame really - my uni club does loads of training with very few instructors, where as my home club does very little training with lots of instructors :O\

As another Uni club we have also been running a very active
Instructor Training scheme and you have got it right, you must
be proactive.

Look at what you have to work with. You have three years to get
students from day one basic, to useable NQI. Trouble is that
in by that final year, college work not-surprisingly takes
priority.

This is how we do it.
At freshers, target your existing diver. At least a quarter
will be PADI OW/AOW. Great, straight onto Sport and a goal
of fully UK seawater qualified by Easter. Your basic group
can also get fastracked. Go on holiday train 2 grades in one
week. When you come back push hard on those that didnt go.
Always have the goal of trained by Easter.
Now dont train - GO DIVING!

Your newbies need in-water experince. Do two day efforts in the summer, have another dive only (non-training) holiday.
Average 1st year result = Good competent Sport diver with
over 30 dives.

2nd Year = Your new mob should be on the IFC when they
return in October. Dont worry if they have doubts, treat the
course as a taster. Cant get a course? Arrange one with a pro
outfit. Too expensive? By the time you've factored in travel/accommodation it often woks out the same. Get a group
together and negotaite a discount. You might even get funding
from faculty and SU. On some courses you even get credits.

So now you can start to use your new ADI's when teaching the
new intake in the pool. No pool in DL so do SDC's in O2, PRM
& Nx. Why? With time constaints even if they dont finish DL
they will always finish the odd SDC.
Goal Easter = DL/ADI/Adv.Nx.

Easter = GO DIVING!
Over the summer most will go on the OWIC and maybe PIE.

October Third Year = TIE & finaly your an OWI.

No here's the dilemma. Even though you may have an OWI or
very close to it, chances are that they will now be into exams.
Just when they are getting useful they bugger off!

So encourage your aluminis. Make the dive programme so good
that they'll want to travel.

So if you are still with me after all this ramble.

Bottom line. Want more Instructors? Start this week at
freshers.

Rgds
TerryH

David Walker

27-09-2004, 22:52

Look at what you have to work with. You have three years to get
students from day one basic, to useable NQI. Trouble is that
in by that final year, college work not-surprisingly takes
priority.

Yep - thats two of us now (well, the other is in his 4th year), but same effect - final year, just become OWI.

This is how we do it.
At freshers, target your existing diver. At least a quarter
will be PADI OW/AOW. Great, straight onto Sport and a goal
of fully UK seawater qualified by Easter. Your basic group
can also get fastracked. Go on holiday train 2 grades in one
week. When you come back push hard on those that didnt go.
Always have the goal of trained by Easter.
Now dont train - GO DIVING!

Ah yes, the fresher's fayre! That's, ermmmm, tomorrow! Oh damn, I really need to get organised for that! Anyway... I am trying to do more to get existing divers in this year. Last year they were kind of forgotten - they came in, did their crossover, but then there was nothing for them to do apart from one trip in Easter and one 3 day one at the start of the summer (none of which filled though!). I certainly agree with the "go diving" sentiment - again something we haven't done a lot of in the past - yes it's good to get training done, but in the past that's been absolutely dominating actual diving - in the second term last year we were in Stoney every weekend, most weeks we were there twice a week, and there was simply no time to think about anything else, no time for diving, just training! This year i'm cutting back on the intake of new ODs from 16 to 12 to try to make sure they all get through more quickly and leave time for diving. Trying to split 16 into two groups of 8 is just too much, it rarely works and so each lesson (or pair of lessons) typically needs 3 trips to stoney to get them all done - if we can get that done in two trips then we've cut training requirements by 50%. Its a difficult decision to make, since our OD course is generally over-demanded, but its the only way we can make sure the divers we send out into the world 1) have actually expereicned sea diving, and 2) have the experience to be safe divers outside of a sheltered quarry!

Your newbies need in-water experince. Do two day efforts in the summer, have another dive only (non-training) holiday.
Average 1st year result = Good competent Sport diver with
over 30 dives.

We get the sports diver bit done, but very rarely with anywhere near that many dives - that is our major failing at the moment.

2nd Year = Your new mob should be on the IFC when they
return in October. Dont worry if they have doubts, treat the
course as a taster. Cant get a course? Arrange one with a pro
outfit. Too expensive? By the time you've factored in travel/accommodation it often woks out the same. Get a group
together and negotaite a discount. You might even get funding
from faculty and SU. On some courses you even get credits.

Yep we certainly encourage IFC to most of our sports divers. Never looked at ones looked by schools, but we do get subsidised by the Union for up to 60% of the cost, and the club itself will pay half of the travel expenses.

So now you can start to use your new ADI's when teaching the
new intake in the pool. No pool in DL so do SDC's in O2, PRM
& Nx. Why? With time constaints even if they dont finish DL
they will always finish the odd SDC.
Goal Easter = DL/ADI/Adv.Nx.

Yep, we try to get most of the new IFCs to do try dives and some of the OD - lets the instructors watch, they get expereince, the try divers still get a safe enjoyable experience.

Easter = GO DIVING!

Trying to do this more and more. Main problem with that is getting people to organise things - they'll usually work out quite expensive, and since few can be encouraged to organise things then we are limited to how much the people organising hte trips can afford. We did I think 4 big weekends away this summer, but takeup wasn't that great, mostly I expect because even though diving didn't cost that much, getting to the coast was too much for most. I'm looking into ways around that for next year, possibly encouraging more peopel to join home clubs which is good for when they leave too.

Over the summer most will go on the OWIC and maybe PIE.
October Third Year = TIE & finaly your an OWI.

Something like that. I had my DL by February in the second year (after a lot of diving away from the main club stuff), and so managed to get OWIC at Easter, PIE at the start of summer, and TIE at the start of September. Gives me a full year of teaching at the club.

No here's the dilemma. Even though you may have an OWI or
very close to it, chances are that they will now be into exams.
Just when they are getting useful they bugger off!

Exams? What are they? :O)

So encourage your aluminis. Make the dive programme so good
that they'll want to travel.

We do do very well from old members. We rely on them for the more advanced instruction (DL mostly) since we want someone more experienced to be teaching DL than a recently qualified OWI. They are very useful to us, we're good to them on trips, and a lot do still come on our trips, particularly teh big christmas trip (Red Sea) - its a reason to keep involved.

So if you are still with me after all this ramble.

Amazingly... yes!

Bottom line. Want more Instructors? Start this week at
freshers.

Start tomorrow!!! Ahhhhh!!!

Right, off to print all my posters and leaflets now (nowt like being prepared!)

David

terryh

28-09-2004, 01:07

Sounds like you are at the stage we were a few years back.
Good at training newbies, bad at actualy going diving.
Got to the stage where even though we had enough divers,
we couldnt guarantee to fill a boat. Ended up mostly at
quarries and the odd overseas trip. Most of the senior divers
(including myself) went off and did there own thing.

Big change happened when we made a major structure change.

Works like this.......
From Oct-Easter we are a training club. All effort is directed
towards training. Each and every dive WILL be compromised if
training is needed.
From Easter-Sept we are a Dive club. NO dive will be
compromised for training.

What this does is to make everybody work towards that Easter
deadline. If they dont get there act together, they dont get
training past Easter. No grade, no diving.

Without that training excuse you HAVE to get a decent dive
programme going. Really makes you get your finger out. I've
just finalised the 2005 programme and it's over 20 bookings
already.

Of course we are a South Coast outfit and so sea access is a
little easier then your neck of the woods, but this system
has worked so well that even the senior diver grades within
the club and alumni have increased.

Not sure if any of this is any help, but splitting up the
year really does make you focus on priorities.

TerryH

David Walker

28-09-2004, 07:21

Not sure if any of this is any help, but splitting up the
year really does make you focus on priorities.

Cheers Terry - sounds like a good way to structure it, certainly one option for getting both training and diving done. It is certainly something I want to get put into place in the next year (before I bugger off and get a job) - once we know how many of the different grades eg crossovers / new divers we have coming into the club from the Freshers Fayre today i've got 4 hours this afternoon with nothing else to do but sort all my diving-related stuff, and i'll certainly look into whether we can get something similar sorted.
Certainly from one aspect we don't do a lot of training in the third term due generally to most instructors concentrating on exams, yet the first and second years have more free time and so as long as we can get one DL / instructor free for every other weekend then we can get trips going somewhere...

Thanks for the ideas. Obviously i've got a lot more to think about before we get much further, but any ideas are always welcome, help me consider other options for the direction of the club.

Cheers

David

David Martin

28-09-2004, 11:45

Renamed, since it's off the original topic.

Look at what you have to work with. You have three years to get
students from day one basic, to useable NQI. Trouble is that
in by that final year, college work not-surprisingly takes
priority.

There are many other distractions at University. We have 8 week terms, and live 3-4hrs from a decent bit of coastline. Diving is expensive.
IMO, based upon my club(s) would be possible for someone who was very keen to get from never dived to NQI within 3 years, but I don't know of anyone who has done! We certainly couldn't rely on it! Getting to DL ADI in 2-3 years is feasible though.

Therefore, either, don't limit yourself to 3 years, or don't start at "non-diver". Many of my main branch's instructors are Graduates or post-grad students. [I think that I was the only undergrad NQI for 2 of my 4 undergrad years.]
It's obviously easier to get people from SD to NQI, than from scratch. I'm not sure how many SD+ or equiv (eg PADI RD+) we get each year, but it's a useful supplement to those trained in-branch.

All our NQI's are Nx Inst. and we do 2/3 in-house a year.

Combined with your other comment - I'm surprised! I don't know the individuals concerned, but unless the people you're referring to have done a *lot* of (fairly advanced) diving I'd doubt that they'd be capable of instructing an ANX course to a sensible standard a mere 2-3 years after learning to dive.

David

David Walker

28-09-2004, 23:06

There are many other distractions at University. We have 8 week terms, and live 3-4hrs from a decent bit of coastline. Diving is expensive.

Yep - know the feeling!

IMO, based upon my club(s) would be possible for someone who was very keen to get from never dived to NQI within 3 years, but I don't know of anyone who has done! We certainly couldn't rely on it! Getting to DL ADI in 2-3 years is feasible though.

Can be done fairly easily if you're interested and keen. Example of the kinds of timescale I took to do things:

Did a try dive early November 2002. Started the first Ocean Diver lecture on 21st Nov 2002, started the pool the same time, and finished all that 16th Jan 2003. First Stoney dive 1st Feb 2003. Very cold... lovely introduction to diving!
Finished that, did a few more stoney trips for "fun" (HA!) before easter, and then had a week down in the Lizard (cornwall).
Came back from that, started SD, did the lectures all one sunday, the pool the week after that, then that slowed down for the dives for that but got it done by the end of that term (June 2003). In the last couple of weeks of that term, because we'd all finished exams and had nothign better to do, I also did PRM and O2.
Did a little bit of diving over the summer, just a couple of small trips, just enough to keep my hand in. Nothing special. Did IFC Sept 2003, got lots of experience just in Stoney in the Autumn term that year, did a DPM SDC in-branch, and Egypt at Christmas. Got some experience, did the DL lectures / dives in early Jan 2004, just as 2-3 days in a row, got all that out of the way. Finished the last bits and signed off as DL 8th Feb 2004. Did boathandling course since then, did OWIC at easter, a week in Oban at Easter, did a lot of teaching in stoney during the third term (before summer). At start of summer did PIE, and then joined a club at home and got some more 'real' diving in, with the Farnes a lot of weekends, and 3 weekends down the South coast doing 30m stuff generally.
Did my TIE early Sept 2004, my Adv. Nitrox couple of weeks ago, and so now (from Feb 2003 -> Sept 2004) i've gone from nothing to DL + OWI + Adv. Nitrox. This year will be a lot of instructing at uni, and a lot more proper diving too - I want to really get a lot more experience now, we're going Egypt again, Scapa at Easter, adn the usual array of club trips too. By next Summer I should have done a lot more boat stuff, do Diver Cox'n (so I can take my home club's rib out), i'm wanting to do First Aid and Lifesaver stuff, get a lot more into Nitrox (obviously having just done it a couple of weeks ago i've never used it on a real dive yet).
I'm also looking to get the AD lectures done just while I can (some look quite interesting just on their own), and then over the following year build up a lot more experience and look to getting AD completed probably long into the future. In reality as long as i've done the lectures then the dives I can do with my home club whenever - they're easy. After that, well, i'll probably stop there for a while (or forever). I'll try to keep teaching, i found its very good for my own skills too, and do more interesting diving for myself too.

Certainly I have to say anythign is possible. It depends on the timing of course availability, but in general anyone at our club could do as I have done if they were very keen. No one I know has done quite so much so quickly, but certainly I think joining a home club this summer has really made a huge difference and improved my diving a lot - having dived with so many people, mostly more experienced, and at both my home club and at instructor events etc, I have learnt LOADS from others. Certainly worth doing, and i think nice to get out and dive with different people in different places.

My advice to anyone though, if you want to do something you can, and especially at uni clubs which tend to be rather inactive over the summer and some other holidays then look to another club - it did me the world of good, and I did really enjoy it too.

David

terryh

29-09-2004, 00:48

:=All our NQI's are Nx Inst. and we do 2/3 in-house a year.

Combined with your other comment - I'm surprised! I don't know the individuals concerned, but unless the people you're referring to have done a *lot* of (fairly advanced) diving I'd doubt that they'd be capable of instructing an ANX course to a sensible standard a mere 2-3 years after learning to dive.

Let me rephrase.
All our NQI's are Nx Inst. and we do 2/3 Nitrox SDC's in-house,
each year.

Our average senior diver (3 years in) will have done at least
100 quality dives. Be DL/ADI/OWIC/Adv.Nx, have progressed to
either twins or 15's + pony, regularly doing minor deco
(15min max) and include Nx when required.

The Combined Nitrox course really is a doddle. Most of it is
repetition of existing gas laws and they've been exposed to kit
configerations almost from day one. Even midwater DSMB etc. is
taught much earlier on ordinary dives. We have a range of
O2 clean cylinders and can twin up just about any
combination for practice runs.

As for the maths etc? These are supposed to be degree students!

There is no mystery about all this. We are slap bang in the
Solent. Most of the good stuff is in the 30-50m range.
Yes you can do a few 20's, but you'd get bored pretty quick.
So if you want to go diving with us, then you need Sport+Nx.
It's become a day-one, club goal.

So if they had done the TIE/PIE (some are so close by the
third year) then yes they would easily be capable of doing the
Nx instructor bit.

TerryH