Strange Question RE signing off qualification books

[tekdiver]

Hi All,
This is a slightly strange question - In the qualification books is there a need for *ALL* signature boxes to be also stamped with the instructor's branch stamp? The reason i ask is the branch DO at my club is refusing to sign off on a ocean diver qualification for someone because some of the practical bits which are signed by an instructor are not stamped. This seems a bit strange to me.

Could someone shead some light on this?

Antony

[Mike Halligan]

Antony,

I am not aware of any _requirement_ in either the 'old' QRB or the new filofax-style QR. However, if the DO has had problems with people accumulating signatures from Instructors whom he/she doesn't know, then I can see that there could be a problem when it comes down to signing-off the qualification page. The use of the Branch stamp might be a way of counteracting this, perhaps?

In my own experience, Instructor's Training Record books and Student Record cards are very useful in assuring the QRB. In fact, it is why I advise fellow Instructors to keep an Instructor's Training Record and why (as TO) I insist it is the student's responsibility to present their QR to me regularly for updating of the Student Record card (i.e. it is not the Instructor's problem, he/she has the qualification!). Even so, some choose not to comply, and face an uphill struggle for certification when I start asking who taught them what, and when. Strangely, I seem to know better than they where, when and by whom they could have been taught a particular lesson (why might that be?).

At the end of the day it is for the TO (or an NQI) to present the fully trained student to the DO for consideration of certification. That way, there are no surprises. Instructors get to know what is expected and coach the student properly. At the same time, students don't have the embarrassment of approaching for certification when unready. And the DO can find out how things are progressing, without appearing to interrogate student or Instructor.

I don't know what's going on in your Branch, but those are just some possible reasons for good practice recommendations in place in the BOH.

Hope this helps,

Mike

[angiemac]

I don't have an instructors branch stamp - our DO has a club stamp - so I couldn't comply with this request if I wanted to. I agree the instructors number should be there, but I'd take an instructors signature over any stamp every time.

[David Walker]

Hi All,
This is a slightly strange question - In the qualification books is there a need for *ALL* signature boxes to be also stamped with the instructor's branch stamp? The reason i ask is the branch DO at my club is refusing to sign off on a ocean diver qualification for someone because some of the practical bits which are signed by an instructor are not stamped. This seems a bit strange to me.

None of the signatures in my QRB have stamps, and i've never seen a QRB with stamps in the individual lesson boxes - just a signature.
Does the DO know the instructor who did those lessons? If you're doing lessons with an instructor unknown to the branch you should inform the DO / training officer first so that they know what's going on - it might be an instructor they know has a history of just signing anything put infront of them - if they don't know the instructor they won't have much coonfidence in the signature. I could sign your book and put down AI123, doesn't mean i'm an AI, rather i've just signed my name and put down a random number after it...

I'm sure talking to the DO would solve the problem - don't just demand that they sign something because you've collected all the signatures. Just ask nicely, if they say no ask what you can do about it. If its a problem that they don't know the instructor, ask did they let the DO know before doing the training, and see if the DO would meet the instructor to assure the DO that the training was done properly. Or do a dive with the DO / a branch instructor so that they can just check your skills.

Remember that the DO is ultimately responsible for making sure that the people he signs off are really cabable of diving safely at that level - if the Do isn't sure that you are, then they can withhold that final signature until they have some reassurance. We've had problems in the past where instructors have signed off lessons because the student did the lesson, even if they couldn't perform the skills (which were required to be competently and confidently performed) by the end of that lesson - that has led to problems when it comes to the DO signing things off because, although they've got signatures for each box, they clearly can't dive to the required level.

A nice discussion with the DO should sort it out.

David

[edward haynes]

Antony

This sounds like people have in the past presented log-books with signatures the Branch Diving Officer (BDO) does not recognise.

When a student successful completes a lesson the instructor - a Nationally Qualified Instructor (NQI) - should sign the lesson off and include their NQI number. This number will allow a BDO to confirm with HQ that it is valid, but nothing else (the good old Data Protection Act kicks in here).

By making a requirement to have the Branch Stamp with the NQI signature the BDO is confirming he or the Branch Secretary confirmed the instructor was authorised to conduct that lesson.

What would stop a student from getting their own Branch Stamp made and using that?

The BDO is ultimately responsible for awarding diver qualifications within a Branch and if they suspect a lesson has not been conducted properly they can ask for it to be done again. However, an NQI is to recommend to the BDO that a student is ready for the award of a diving qualification, it's not just a case of getting all the boxes filled and handing it to the BDO (BOH-IE, Section 4.4.4 - "Authority to Award BSAC Diving Qualifications").

Have a read of BOH-IE, Section 4.4.5 - "Factors to be considered when awarding Qualifications" for a more detailed explanation of what a BDO should consider when a log-book is presented for diver qualification award.

HTH

Edward

[John Thirlwell]

Hi All,
This is a slightly strange question - In the qualification books is there a need for *ALL* signature boxes to be also stamped with the instructor's branch stamp? The reason i ask is the branch DO at my club is refusing to sign off on a ocean diver qualification for someone because some of the practical bits which are signed by an instructor are not stamped. This seems a bit strange to me.

Now lets look at this from the students point of view...

Why has the student been taught some lessons or conducted some dives with an instructor outside of the branch? More than likely because progress within the branch is too slow for the students liking.

So... the student is keen enough to go to the bother of finding an instructor who is willing to give up the time it takes to complete the required lessons and dives, the student gets his/her QRB signed up only to find that the DO refused to award the qualification!

So where does this leave the student, all he/she wants to do is to learn to dive, can't do that through BSAC as no-one will sign the QRB, may as well fins another organisation who will teach him/her to dive!

We have got to find a way to make this work, otherwise students will simply go and get themselves a PADI qualification and not bother with BSAC at all.

Instructor numbers can be checked through BSAC HQ, although this is no guarantee that the instructor actually conducted and signed off the lesson.

Stamps don't mean a great deal as anyone can get themselves a stamp made up and some instructors won't be part of a branch anyway (BSAC direct for example).

This needs sorting out if BSAC is to grow and maintain any sort of credibility in the eyes of it's students.

[edward haynes]

Hi John

Now lets look at this from the students point of view...

Why has the student been taught some lessons or conducted some dives with an instructor outside of the branch? More than likely because progress within the branch is too slow for the students liking.

So... the student is keen enough to go to the bother of finding an instructor who is willing to give up the time it takes to complete the required lessons and dives, the student gets his/her QRB signed up only to find that the DO refused to award the qualification!

On a personal note. I have been that instructor (BSAC Direct). I have always spoken to the student?s Branch Diving Officer (BDO) before conducting training, I want to know if there are any special issues I need to be aware of. It also means the BDO should accept my signature when the student is ready the their diver qualification award.

The system of quality control within BSAC relies on the BDO controlling the award of diving qualifications; part the quality control is the monitoring of the standard of training given by instructors. There is nothing wrong in a member receiving training from instructors within and without their Branch (including BSAC Direct). However, the student?s ?A? BDO will need some knowledge of the instructor to fulfil this role.

So where does this leave the student, all he/she wants to do is to learn to dive, can't do that through BSAC as no-one will sign the QRB, may as well fins another organisation who will teach him/her to dive!

Not quite, a Nationally Qualified Instructor (NQI) is to recommend the student to the BDO for the award of a diving qualification ? the NQI can be the BDO. From what I understand from other organisations they have similar requirements before a qualification is awarded. I can?t see a PADI school giving OW or AOW which was taught by another PADI school (I may be wrong).

We have got to find a way to make this work, otherwise students will simply go and get themselves a PADI qualification and not bother with BSAC at all.

I will be controversial now. Why must new divers do their initial training with a Branch. An individual who has put the commitment (time & financial) into getting their initial training done and wants to join a Branch is a safer bet to stay than one who has never dived. (IHMO)

This needs sorting out if BSAC is to grow and maintain any sort of credibility in the eyes of it's students.

IMHO, PADI train ? BSAC go diving.

Edward

[Tim Pentall]

Hi All,

Interesting thread.

As for the original question about stamping all the instructors signatures - that's one I haven't heard of before. The use of the stamp might actually obscure the instructor number (which is the most important piece of information.

As the DO of a University club I frequently get QRB's that have been filled in by other branches, before awarding qualifications I do try and check with the original branch or HQ that these are valid.

Remember though that the BDO really does have to award the qualification when the QRB is complete, even if some of the instructors and their standards are unknown, my understanding is that if the BDO refuses to sign then the QRB can be sent to HQ and the NDO will sign the student up.

Cheers

Tim


Hi John

:=Now lets look at this from the students point of view...
:=
:=Why has the student been taught some lessons or conducted some dives with an instructor outside of the branch? More than likely because progress within the branch is too slow for the students liking.
:=
:=So... the student is keen enough to go to the bother of finding an instructor who is willing to give up the time it takes to complete the required lessons and dives, the student gets his/her QRB signed up only to find that the DO refused to award the qualification!

On a personal note. I have been that instructor (BSAC Direct). I have always spoken to the student?s Branch Diving Officer (BDO) before conducting training, I want to know if there are any special issues I need to be aware of. It also means the BDO should accept my signature when the student is ready the their diver qualification award.

The system of quality control within BSAC relies on the BDO controlling the award of diving qualifications; part the quality control is the monitoring of the standard of training given by instructors. There is nothing wrong in a member receiving training from instructors within and without their Branch (including BSAC Direct). However, the student?s ?A? BDO will need some knowledge of the instructor to fulfil this role.
:=
:=So where does this leave the student, all he/she wants to do is to learn to dive, can't do that through BSAC as no-one will sign the QRB, may as well fins another organisation who will teach him/her to dive!

Not quite, a Nationally Qualified Instructor (NQI) is to recommend the student to the BDO for the award of a diving qualification ? the NQI can be the BDO. From what I understand from other organisations they have similar requirements before a qualification is awarded. I can?t see a PADI school giving OW or AOW which was taught by another PADI school (I may be wrong).
:=
:=We have got to find a way to make this work, otherwise students will simply go and get themselves a PADI qualification and not bother with BSAC at all.

I will be controversial now. Why must new divers do their initial training with a Branch. An individual who has put the commitment (time & financial) into getting their initial training done and wants to join a Branch is a safer bet to stay than one who has never dived. (IHMO)
:=
:=This needs sorting out if BSAC is to grow and maintain any sort of credibility in the eyes of it's students.

IMHO, PADI train ? BSAC go diving.

Edward

[terryh]

I can?t see a PADI school giving OW or AOW which was taught by another PADI school (I may be wrong).
:=

PADI schools operate a refferal system where the student can
complete elements of courses in two (or more) schools.

Although it is possible to have bits of courses, they are
usually used for the block elements. Most commonly the
theory/pool work will be done here in the UK and the open
water abroad in warmer climes. The school fills in a report
card which is passed to the second school for completion.

For those that want to learn abroad it is a very good way of
not being stuck in a classroom when you should be diving.

What many dont realise is that you can do exactly the same
with BSAC. For the past 5 years now, we have completed all
the theory & pool elements in the UK and then taking students
to Calipso Diving in Lanzarote for the open water. They have
BSAC Inst. on staff to complement our own and together we can
train a lot of divers in a very short time.

In fact the system has worked so well that depending on time
we sometimes do not one, but 2 grades. Of course we do add a
caveat that all skills including rescue must be repeated
in the UK, but far easier to repeat in the cold once mastered.

The added advantage to this system is that those who learn
this way, gel as a group and club member. If I look back at
some of this summers trips and take a look at your average
DL/35-40m deco trip, over 80% are Lanzarote trained divers.

Gotta be a moral there somewhere.

Rgds
TerryH

[edward haynes]

Thanks Terry

All interesting stuff and a logical way of doing things.

Relating this back to the first post I would suspect there was no referral.

Edward

[David Walker]

PADI schools operate a refferal system where the student can
complete elements of courses in two (or more) schools.

Absolutely... but don't you have to agree the refferal in advance, rather than just turn up and expect to be taught the rest? Same with what this DO is doing seemingly.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that it might put people off BSAC if they can't get their dives done. In reality, if there was a real shortage of instructors then a quick word with the DO and say that you would like to do a lesson or two with a non-branch OWI i'm sure wouldn't cause any problems whatsoever... but ask before, not after! That said, if there isn't a shortage of available instructors in-branch I have to wonder why someone would go with an instructor not from the branch, and possibly in that case they might be doing it with eg a friend so that their friend won't be quite so picky on the assessments and things - and that is a possibility and its right for the DO to be wary of instructors they don't know.
Personally, i'd just take you for a dive myself and check your skills - ask you a couple of questions on the boat, and we'd know exactly whether they'd properly completed the required bits.

David

[tekdiver]

Just an update

The person i was refering too in my post now has had her qualification book signed up. clear up a few things mentioned in peoples posts.....

The BDO was notified prior to her going on holiday and *PAYING* to have additional lessons done to get the remaining open water dives signed off. The BDO seems to think that it is very important for the stamp to be present and has requested that the book be posted off abroad to the dive school where she did the training to be stamped. The reason he gives for this is that he believes it to be a valid way of checking if the instructor actually exists (I personally do not agree with this statement at all). He says that it is not possible for him to contact BSAC HQ to see if a given instructor number is valid and who it belongs to because they will not give out that information, is this really the case?


All is now well and good with the trainee that made me make this post, thanks to all who gave me some points of persuastion to use with the DO to get her signed up.




Hi All,
This is a slightly strange question - In the qualification books is there a need for *ALL* signature boxes to be also stamped with the instructor's branch stamp? The reason i ask is the branch DO at my club is refusing to sign off on a ocean diver qualification for someone because some of the practical bits which are signed by an instructor are not stamped. This seems a bit strange to me.

Could someone shead some light on this?

Antony

[edward haynes]

... He says that it is not possible for him to contact BSAC HQ to see if a given instructor number is valid and who it belongs to because they will not give out that information, is this really the case?

I have just checked the PD notification and he's right. HQ can only disclose information to the individual; so ringing to confirm if an instructor number is valid is not possible (contra to what I though and wrote before).

Edward

[David Walker]

I have just checked the PD notification and he's right. HQ can only disclose information to the individual; so ringing to confirm if an instructor number is valid is not possible (contra to what I though and wrote before).

So why do we put our instructor number on everything if no one can ever really check it? Couldn't they just have an agreement that all instructors sign before they're given an instructor number - basically all instructors agree that their name, number and branch can be given to a DO (and only to DOs) to confirm lessons signed off - if the DO wants to get in touch, they can do so through the instructor's branch?

We've never had a need to do something like that in our club, since we know all the instructors who have taught all our students, but I suppose in the few cases where it would be helpful then it might work? Sort of we've got the instructor numbers, but they can never be checked (with the possible exception maybe that someone has an accident and the police want to know who taught them to dive?)

David

[Dave]

" Couldn't they just have an agreement that all instructors sign before they're given an instructor number - basically all instructors agree that their name, number and branch can be given to a DO (and only to DOs) to confirm lessons signed off "

Only for any instructors that agree to opt in to such an agreement. It cannot be made mandatory

Dave

[terryh]

Come on people, we are talking mountains & molehills here.

The original post concerned the verification of dives in a
pro school. One phone call to the school would have sorted it.

The same applies to a BSAC club. Not only are contact details
esaily available, but if you were in another club then you
know members in it and can always get the tel number of the DO
etc. So again a quick phone call would sort it.

Besides whenever I have needed to check on a QRB you get far
more info from direct contact with the old clubs DO, then you
ever do from a rubber stamp in the book.

TerryH

[John Thirlwell]

:=I have just checked the PD notification and he's right. HQ can only disclose information to the individual; so ringing to confirm if an instructor number is valid is not possible (contra to what I though and wrote before).

So why do we put our instructor number on everything if no one can ever really check it? Couldn't they just have an agreement that all instructors sign before they're given an instructor number - basically all instructors agree that their name, number and branch can be given to a DO (and only to DOs) to confirm lessons signed off - if the DO wants to get in touch, they can do so through the instructor's branch?

We've never had a need to do something like that in our club, since we know all the instructors who have taught all our students, but I suppose in the few cases where it would be helpful then it might work? Sort of we've got the instructor numbers, but they can never be checked (with the possible exception maybe that someone has an accident and the police want to know who taught them to dive?)

David

Seems to me that all instructor names and numbers could be put onto the web site, simple enough to check and keep up to date.

[Andy Wade]

:=:=I have just checked the PD notification and he's right. HQ can only disclose information to the individual; so ringing to confirm if an instructor number is valid is not possible (contra to what I though and wrote before).
:=
:=So why do we put our instructor number on everything if no one can ever really check it? Couldn't they just have an agreement that all instructors sign before they're given an instructor number - basically all instructors agree that their name, number and branch can be given to a DO (and only to DOs) to confirm lessons signed off - if the DO wants to get in touch, they can do so through the instructor's branch?
:=
:=We've never had a need to do something like that in our club, since we know all the instructors who have taught all our students, but I suppose in the few cases where it would be helpful then it might work? Sort of we've got the instructor numbers, but they can never be checked (with the possible exception maybe that someone has an accident and the police want to know who taught them to dive?)
:=
:=David

Seems to me that all instructor names and numbers could be put onto the web site, simple enough to check and keep up to date.

No thanks.
Data protection Act. Let's not go there.
I do think it should be OK for HQ to at least confirm that a particular name goes with a number though. And nothing more than that.
If the caller (say it's the DO) from a BSAC branch rings just to confirm that the number is valid for that particular name, I can't see it being a problem.
As has been said, you can't beat phoning their old DO and simply asking.