Training A Partner to Dive

[mike.blackmore@eds.com]

Not sure if it would be a good idea anyway, but under BSAC instructor guidelines, should I be able to train my partner?

I guess that I am thinking of the possibility of being biased, and the chance that I may be lenient or more critical during skill assessments.

Interested to know if anyone has been in this position.

:-)

[james parrott]

On a more practical basis, do you really want the grief???

[neil carter]

When we first trained to dive I asked politely, and ended up virtually demanding that my wife and I should train together. Answering to the original DO from hell, the answer was always a resounding and not always polite "no". Since we are now both Instructors in our own right and perhaps have a little more insight into what diving is about, our answer, whenever the question comes up, is that under all normal circumstances, partners should always train separately, even if they anticipate nearly always diving tyogether.

Think of learning to drive, or rather teaching your partner to drive, and all the anecdotes, mostly true, about the problems thus caused, both as trainee driver, and within the parnership. It is always "better", read less stressful. read more inspirational, read faster or more efficient learning curve, if parnerships and instruction are kept separate.

Yes, you could undoubtedly do a first class job in Instructing your partner to dive, but, IMHO, your partner will learn more, and learn more, more quickly, and probably become a more rounded diver if you leave the training up to another trusted Instructor within your Club. Ask yourself the question if you yourself would be happy or recommend training a pair of divers in a relationship.

Just my 2p's worth

Neil Carter

DO

ISIS Divers

[Bill Bird]

Not sure if it would be a good idea anyway, but under BSAC instructor guidelines, should I be able to train my partner?

I guess that I am thinking of the possibility of being biased, and the chance that I may be lenient or more critical during skill assessments.

Interested to know if anyone has been in this position.

:-)
Both myself and my wife learned to dive together in a BSAC branch. Neither of us had any problem with that, and neither did our branch.

I've gone on to become an NQI and Dive Leader, my wife's almost done all of her Dive Leader and is an Assistant Instructor. I could finish off her Dive Leader training, but won't. I think that somebody else doing it would be more objective and I wouldn't leave myself open to any critism of favoritism. I think the very occassional lesson is fine (especially if others in the class), but I personally think that it would be better if the bulk of the training was done by another instructor.


Bill

[david lisk]

:=Not sure if it would be a good idea anyway, but under BSAC instructor guidelines, should I be able to train my partner?

Can anyone clarify the answer to the original question in respect of BSAC instructor guidelines?

What are the BSAC rules regarding the training and signing off (in QRB's) of close relations ie Wife, Son, Daughter.

David

[mike.blackmore@eds.com]

Thanks for the replies, but I don't think the question has been answered...

I am a qualified Advanced Diver and ACI.

My wife is currently a sports diver with majority of Dive Leader completed. Can I instruct her?

My wife is a Dr and would not be allowed to treat me on ethical grounds and teachers and students (over 16) in education are discouraged from relationships.

What is the situation in diving?

Mike

[Steve Walker]

Not sure if it would be a good idea anyway, but under BSAC instructor guidelines, should I be able to train my partner?

I guess that I am thinking of the possibility of being biased, and the chance that I may be lenient or more critical during skill assessments.

Interested to know if anyone has been in this position.

:-)

This has been discussed before and IIRC the general view was: ok or you to do the training but get someone else to do the assessments, that way you can't be criticised for bias, seems fair enough to me.

[Andy Wade]

:=:=Not sure if it would be a good idea anyway, but under BSAC instructor guidelines, should I be able to train my partner?

Can anyone clarify the answer to the original question in respect of BSAC instructor guidelines?

What are the BSAC rules regarding the training and signing off (in QRB's) of close relations ie Wife, Son, Daughter.



I don't know of any rules about this.
However, it is an ethical minefield as has been stated by several people already.
Perhaps in the average branch this doesn't really occur anyway, as the person teaching would be different from the person examining (or should be as it creates a quality control for the instructors) and the DO would be in overall control of checking that divers complete the exams correctly.
If someone teaches, examines and signs the same qualification book too, they are asking for trouble. IMO there should be as much input from as many instructors as possible for a diver to have a 'well rounded' education in diving.
There's nothing wrong with doing some of it, just not all of it.




.

[Andy Wade]

Thanks for the replies, but I don't think the question has been answered...

I am a qualified Advanced Diver and ACI.

My wife is currently a sports diver with majority of Dive Leader completed. Can I instruct her?

My wife is a Dr and would not be allowed to treat me on ethical grounds and teachers and students (over 16) in education are discouraged from relationships.

What is the situation in diving?


But aren't you an ACI? If so you 'should' be teaching under supervision of an NQI anyway. You can't sign her QRB up for anything without an appropriate NQI number. And you can't sign her qualifications unless you're the DO.
I'd chat about it with your DO and training team, I see no problem with you doing 'some' of her training, but that's all.
If you're helping with the training in your branch it would just be a trade off, as your partner gets trained by someone else whilst you are helping with the training of other people.



.

[mike.blackmore@eds.com]

I agree with the message and off-line replies that I have received, that whilst it is OK for me to complete lectures (which would normally be to a group anyway and not 1-2-1) and to assist on dives under supervision (underwater?), the important thing is for any assessments to be completed by an independent assessor.

This should apply to anyone under instruction regardless of any romantic involvement that the teacher should not be the examiner unless there is no other option and in this circumstance another diver (preferably an advanced diver) should oversee the skill demonstrations.

Thanks again for the replies.

Mike

[allan carr]

I trained both my sons at different times (5 years difference in age) and did some of my wife's training but would never have considered doing their assessments. Having a close personal bond between instructor and trainee can be helpful during training but an independent asssement of skills is vital to remove any possibility of bias.

[Tim Bartley]

I think that this idea of an independent assessor is a bit of a red herring. When you dive with a club most people are friends anyway (well most!). So having another instructor assess is not really adding any checks; who is to say they wouldn't be less independent that the instructor.

It really comes down to the integrety of the instructors. Either the instructor is honest enough to asses or they are not. If not they should not be an instructor. Quality control is surely from the D.O. who signs off the qualification.

On the other hand I think it's not a bad idea to have a different assessor for practical assessments, as they make them more stressful for the assessed - more realistic or maybe I am just sadistic!

Tim

[david lisk]

So, what is the answer to the question regarding training and assessment of a partner or close relation?

So far only personal opinions have been given regarding the ethical problems and possible bias.

If I was to train, assess and sign off for example my Daughter on practical skills am I actually in breach of BSAC rules?

David
OWI

[John Williams]

So, what is the answer to the question regarding training and assessment of a partner or close relation?

So far only personal opinions have been given regarding the ethical problems and possible bias.

If I was to train, assess and sign off for example my Daughter on practical skills am I actually in breach of BSAC rules?

David
OWI

Probably not ...but you are opening yourself up for widespread criticism.

Most have advised you against it and explained their reasoning.

Please understand that BSAC make very few rules - because it cannot police them. We also give instructors a fair amount of leeway to use their common sense. If you, and others, persist in flouting the dictates of common sense (and sound advice and reasoning) then the BSAC will be forced to publish recommendations on this matter - and they will almost certainly say "No!"

Please don't force the issue that far!

Take the advice - get involved in training, try to avoid the training of close relatives without support - and certainly have the training you do with them assessed by someone else who is independent and unbiased.

John

[terryh]

If I was to train, assess and sign off for example my Daughter on practical skills am I actually in breach of BSAC rules?


No. As a fully qualified NQI you have the right to sign ANY module or lesson that you are authorised to teach. There is no stipulation as to the relationship between you and the student.

However.......

The club DO has to satisfy himself that such training is up
to the required standard. He can ask for an assessment or
module to be repeated if neccessary. True he/she may have to
justify his/her actions, but regardless of what you do, the DO
is there to mark YOUR work.

TerryH

[Martin]

I have resisted commenting on this, until now. There are some branches with very few active and available instructors, trying to meet the needs of several trainees. In line with BSAC recomendations, that instructor may also be the Diving Officer.

In terms of training and assessment - the BSAC instructor manual lays down clear descriptions of what training needs to be done, and how it is to be conducted. The competence and confidence performance standards are clearly and thoroughly defined. Providing you adhere stictly to the defined standards, then there really shouldn't be a problem.

Assessment should be inline with the required competence described in the instructor manual, and instructors assessing anyone, family, freind or foe should adhere to those guidelines.

Some branches are fortunate to have large numbers of instructors, and the luxury of those instructors wanting to dive, and instruct, lots. some branches are less fortunate, and have to make the best of who they have. Sometimes, this might mean that you have to train someone you are close to.

I have found a good way of assessing trainees is to ask them to assess themselves, in the groups/pairs they were taught in. They each get a sheet describing the performance standard, quoted from the BSAC manual, and are asked to comment on whether they have achieved it or not. They discuss it among themselves, and they tell me if they think they have achieved it, or not. if I agree, I sign it. It works for people you close to aswell, and it means you also have a paper trail behind you so you can justify passing/failing someone should the 'widespread' critiscism that postings on this topic have described actually happen.

In short, if your happy to do the training for someone, you should get on and do it. You have a responsibility to yourself (as partner/father/mother/bro/sister etc) to ensure they are performing well, as you'll probably be buddying up with them in the future!! You have a responsibility to them, because you love 'em, and you don't want them to die. if anything, your probably going to push for a much higher standard than a lower standard, and that's no bad thing.
--
MArtin


:=
:=If I was to train, assess and sign off for example my Daughter on practical skills am I actually in breach of BSAC rules?
:=

No. As a fully qualified NQI you have the right to sign ANY module or lesson that you are authorised to teach. There is no stipulation as to the relationship between you and the student.

However.......

The club DO has to satisfy himself that such training is up
to the required standard. He can ask for an assessment or
module to be repeated if neccessary. True he/she may have to
justify his/her actions, but regardless of what you do, the DO
is there to mark YOUR work.

TerryH

[Gary Cameron]

So, what is the answer to the question regarding training and assessment of a partner or close relation?

There is really no issue of a partner or relative training close relations. I have seen it done without any problems. If you are a competent instructor, then there should be no issue. I would not stop it within my branch without a good reason.

Training nowadays is more continous assesment, so it is diffucult to subject someone to a specific assessment with out some grounds or suspicion.

However one thing that does worry me is when an instructor appears with a relative insisting that they perform the training, knowing that they have not instructed for a long time. More often than not they have not trained since a previous training system. At that point I would recommend that an instructor with up to date experience take over. This is not restricted to relatives but seems to happen more often in this scenario.

Another problem with the relative/instructor training relationshiop is that if the trainee does not get exposure to other instructors then they can pick up bad habits. We all have them.

Therefore I would suggest that training a relative is not a problem as long as you are up to date with the training and let the trainee have exposure to other instructors.

Gary Cameron
DO and OWI

[david lisk]

:=If I was to train, assess and sign off for example my Daughter on practical skills am I actually in breach of BSAC rules?

Probably not ...but you are opening yourself up for widespread criticism.

Most have advised you against it and explained their reasoning.

-----------John, Thank you for your reply, however I was not looking for advice (or the arguments, I can figure these out myself) but a definitive answer as to BSAC's position.


Please understand that BSAC make very few rules because it cannot police them.

----Are you making this up as you go along. This is nonsense!!! (few rules because you cannot police them, when did BSAC state this?)


If you, and others, persist in flouting the dictates of common sense

----------I am not flouting anything, simply at this stage asking a (reasonable) question!!!!! Try reading what I have said instead of jumping to conclusions!


(and sound advice and reasoning) then the BSAC will be forced to publish recommendations

----recommendations? (do you not mean rules)

on this matter - and they will almost certainly say "No!"
Please don't force the issue that far!

-------Why not force the issue? I do not see a problem. If the answer is no then it is "No" (big deal) however as a member I should be able to ask the question and know one way or another.

David

[John Williams]

:=Please understand that BSAC make very few rules because it cannot police them.

----Are you making this up as you go along. This is nonsense!!! (few rules because you cannot police them, when did BSAC state this?)

The BSAC does indeed have very few rules:
1) You must be a member to call yourself such (and pay your subs)
2)You must be medically fir to dive (either by self-cert or by medical)

That's about it!
Everything else is a recommendation - because there is no-one to police any other rule being broken.
The coroner treats recommendations like rules (and so should BSAC members) - but the key difference between a rule and a recommendation is that you pay a penalty when caught breaking a rule and you just get a slapped wrist when breaing a recommendation.
Branches may have rules that insist you follow BSAC recommendations - and have Marshals police them with the DO's authority.
BSAC has no-one to police it's rules - so does not make many.



If you, and others, persist in flouting the dictates of common sense

----------I am not flouting anything, simply at this stage asking a (reasonable) question!!!!! Try reading what I have said instead of jumping to conclusions!

OK...but once you were given an answer (with reasons) you persisted. This implies (or is it infers?) that you either do, or intend to, follow through and do what people advise against.



(and sound advice and reasoning) then the BSAC will be forced to publish recommendations

----recommendations? (do you not mean rules)

No - BSAC make very few rules - for the reasons stated above.
I'm not making it up. The issue has been widely debated and statements have been made to that effect.
However many branches make local rules that accept BSAC recommendations in full.


-------Why not force the issue? I do not see a problem. If the answer is no then it is "No" (big deal) however as a member I should be able to ask the question and know one way or another.

Because right now you have the freedom to choose. Recommendations can be ignored at peril of a slapped wrist - unless the branch makes them into local rules.
If you force the issue then those of us who want to get involved in teaching our relatives the odd lesson (and get them assessed by someone else) will be forced to stop doing so when a rule is made (or when a recommendation made by BSAC is accepted as a Branch rule - my own branch accepts all BSAC recommendations as rules and to start making exceptions would be a nightmare).

Rules tend to be very "black and white" whilst recommendations allow shades of grey. I'd rather allow our instructors, DOs and branches the freedom to apply common sense to recommendations than restrict them with rules.


Clear enough?

John

[John Williams]

No-one has disagreed with your statements...we have just pointed out that independent assessment is always preferable. It removes any doubt - whether that doubt is justified, spiteful, or just malicious.

One way of getting around the issue of a lone instructor in a branch is to ask the Regional Team for help in:

a) assessments - they could arrange for an instructor from the Regional Team, or another local branch to come along and give you some support by taking some of the assessments to verify that standards are being met (as I'm sure they would be!)
If there are relatives involved - these would be the perfect sample to put before the visiting instructor.

b) Many Regional Teams (if not all) have a system of support for aspiring instructors and would welcome some of the members of your club who wished to support your overworked lone instructor by getting trained themselves. Those who attended the Instructor Exam prep sessions in my Region had a 100% success rate with the exam.

To re-iterate ...
no-one said you can't
They just said that doing so could cause more problems than it was worth.

John

[david lisk]

The BSAC does indeed have very few rules:
1) You must be a member to call yourself such (and pay your subs)
2)You must be medically fir to dive (either by self-cert or by medical)

That's about it!

I think there are more 'rules' than this. These are some thoughts.

What about the 'rules' which apply to crossing over from another organisation. These are not viewed as recommendations which can be disregarded but clear rules to be followed to allow a diver grade to be crossed over to.

There are depth 'rules' as stated in the QRB eg 'BSAC Sports divers are restricted to a maximum depth of 35 meters.' This does not sound like a recommedation.

The training and assessments required to gain a BSAC qualification are not recommendations but a clear set of requirements to be completed. To not follow these requirements, which are the 'rules' which govern the training and assessment outcomes, would invalidate the qualifications awarded. If these are indeed recommendations, you suggest that BSAC have only 2 rules, then a DO could change or modify all the training and assessment and still, award a diver grade. Indeed the DO would only need to sign the certification page in the QRB and not bother with anything else as they are , as you suggest, only 'recommendations'!!

Sometimes what people think are recommendations are in fact 'rules'. It is the courts who will, where necessary, decide if something is a recommendation or in fact a rule. To think that the British Sub-Aqua Club have only 2 rules is not realistic.

Further your origonal statement that 'BSAC make very few rules because it cannot police them' is without foundation, this not stated anywhere by BSAC that I can see. Back up you statement with evidence or withdraw it.

Lets not have speed limits etc. because they cannot be policed, where would this type of thinking lead us?



:= If you, and others, persist in flouting the dictates of common sense
:=
:=----------I am not flouting anything, simply at this stage asking a (reasonable) question!!!!! Try reading what I have said instead of jumping to conclusions!

OK...but once you were given an answer (with reasons) you persisted. This implies (or is it infers?) that you either do, or intend to, follow through and do what people advise against.


Simply persisting to gain a direct answer to my question does not imply or infer anything of the sort. How could you possibly know my intensions, thinking or views on this matter as I have not stated them in this forum up to this point. You do not seem to have read what I have written before answering.

I have not trained or assessed my Daughter for any diving BSAC grade and indeed do not intend to train or assess her for any BSAC diving grade. But as a member I can ask the question and indeed insist on an answer from BSAC if I were to so demand, (I pay my fees like everyone else), whether you like this or not.
:=




If you force the issue then those of us who want to get involved in teaching our relatives the odd lesson (and get them assessed by someone else) will be forced to stop doing so when a rule is made

You mention me 'forcing the issue', which you seem to be concerned about. I thought I was just asking a reasonable question.

However lets examine this 'worry' you seem to have if I was to 'force the issue' as YOU suggest, in stopping the teaching of relatives a stage further.

If in fact after listening to the arguments I was to come to the conclusion that training relatives was in my view not a good idea and had implications for diver safety, I have, quite rightly, the right to raise the issue formally with BSAC. Is this what you mean by 'forcing the issue'? And, the possible outcome that you could no longer give the 'odd lesson' is justification for me keeping quiet. I would suggest it would need a better argument than that to keep me quiet, I can make a lot of noise if I want to!

If BSAC were then to agree and decide that not training assessing relatives was the best/safest/proper way to go forward, and put out a 'rule' then so be it. Those that do not like/accept the 'rules' can always leave! (Yes, I know that no one in BSAC likes the word 'leave' and ultimatiums)

However just because it may upset some members does not mean we all have to bury our heads in the sand regarding open discussion on safety issues and best practice.


Rules tend to be very "black and white" whilst recommendations allow shades of grey.

Shades of gray, in training people to dive a recipe for disaster!

"Shades of gray"
Clear enough?

I don't think so!

David

[john kendall]

I have, quite rightly, the right to raise the issue formally with BSAC.

Yes you do have that right. The forums are not the place to do it though. Get in touch with HQ, or the NDO, or Council if you wish. The forums are not the place to raise things formally.

HTH
John