Time to stop BAR in favor of BRA [Archive]

terryh

11-07-2004, 12:41

Ok here's one for you. Minor point maybe, but it would be
intersting to know if there was any incidents caused by it.

The BSAC buddy mantra is BAR. For many years now I wondered
why it wasnt BRA. Political correctness? Early throwback to
a schoolboy sniggering type mentality? Who knows?

But serioius point. Is BAR instead of BRA more liley to cause
a problem?

Do BAR - Buoyancy BC/Drysuit, Air, Releases BC/W/belt/cylinder.
Get a problem and you need to take of/adjust the BC etc. which
may mean switching the air off.

But as you have aleady checked the air are you gonna do it
again? How easy is it to get into a routine that does BAR and
the one time you had to switch the air off to realign that
hose, is the one time that you thought you had checked it?

Now do BRA. Buoyancy & releases can be checked and sorted.
Air switched off/on, makes no odds as the final check is Air
and everything else has been sorted.

So prior to going in you know that the air is OK and that
nothing has bneen touched or removed after that check.

Besides BRA starts at the top and works down and B&R are
primarily the BC, so it actually makes for a better check.

This may seem a minor point, but the results of getting it
wrong are quite catastophic. I vote BRA not BAR.

Discuss.

Rgds
TerryH

David Walker

11-07-2004, 13:39

Do BAR - Buoyancy BC/Drysuit, Air, Releases BC/W/belt/cylinder.
Get a problem and you need to take of/adjust the BC etc. which
may mean switching the air off.

But as you have aleady checked the air are you gonna do it
again? How easy is it to get into a routine that does BAR and
the one time you had to switch the air off to realign that
hose, is the one time that you thought you had checked it?

I've never known circumstances where you'd need to turn off the air or disconnect more than one hose in the last bit of the buddy check - if its only one hose it'd likely something was just trapped or something, in which case you'd just put it straight back on, and everyone I know eg if it was the drysuit hose would just give a quick push of the button to make sure it still worked. If it was something like the weightbelt left off, they'd drop the whole lot of the kit and start the buddy check again.
Doesn't make much difference - I don't see a lot of reason to change, but don't object particularly either... I'm sure most of us would stick with BAR now even if BSAC did change it - it's just what we're used to!

One point though - the way you're suggesting to do it suggests that air is the most important thing. With air though, you will notice when you put the reg in your mouth that something is wrong and would in the worst case get no more than a metre below the surface before it gave up completely - if it was breathing but not fully turned on then you'd notice first time you checked the gauge and it wouldn't be a problem.
Now, if it was the bouyancy bit of the check that went wrong, you could jump in, plummet to the bottom and be so overweight that you sit on the bottom til you run out of air... or let go of your weightbelt and shoot to the surface and get bent!

Anything in the buddy check being wrong or missed can cause an accident, and in reality the point is to make sure that everything is checked properly. If you do have to do something part way through then it is your responsibility to ensure you haven't broken something you've already checked. if people are going to be lazy and not bother checking their air again if they had to dekit then whatever BSAC do they can still cut corners. The real thing you'd be better off teaching is that if they do have to do something during their buddy check then a quick check of everything else again should be considered!

David

terryh

11-07-2004, 14:15

I've never known circumstances where you'd need to turn off the air or disconnect more than one hose in the last bit of the buddy check - if its only one hose it'd likely something was just trapped or something, in which case you'd just put it straight back on, and everyone I know eg if it was the drysuit hose would just give a quick push of the button to make sure it still worked.

And in that scenario you have just turned off the air to get
the drysuit hose on, and used the residual air in the system
to test it. Your air might still not be fully on.

One point though - the way you're suggesting to do it suggests that air is the most important thing. With air though, you will notice when you put the reg in your mouth that something is wrong and would in the worst case get no more than a metre below the surface before it gave up completely - if it was breathing but not fully turned on then you'd notice first time you checked the gauge and it wouldn't be a problem.

Disagree. Air is the most important thing. Slack w/belt, badly
fitting BC/cylinder even hoise re-routings can all be done
u/water. Cant do anything without an air supply.

Actual example 1 - Manifolded twinset isolator knocked after a
hose re-routing. Gauge showed full, but was showing only one
cylinder. Enough residual air in one side to use drysuit. Only
became apparent when the air started to go down considerably
quicker than it should and by then he was at 35m!

Actual example 2 - Training dive at Stoney, Adv + Spt who were
dong there 1st dive in quite a few months. I wasnt with them,
but up-top waiting for them to clear area. Quick signal and
down they go, about a minute later up they come with a the Adv
looking like he had cologen injections in his lips.
Seems there was only residual air in his system, the buddy
failed to awnser to his responses and he only made it by
dumping his w/belt and finning like F*** to the surface.
He was on the 6m ledge. Anywhere else and he would have been a
gonner. Seems he had problems with his drysuit hose and failed
to re-connect and recheck his supply. What made it worse was
that it was his wife who failed to heed his signals for OOA.

Now, if it was the bouyancy bit of the check that went wrong, you could jump in, plummet to the bottom and be so overweight that you sit on the bottom til you run out of air... or let go of your weightbelt and shoot to the surface and get bent!

All of which you have been trained to deal with. Bad. but
more recoverable than not having any air to breathe while doing
it.

Anything in the buddy check being wrong or missed can cause an accident, and in reality the point is to make sure that everything is checked properly. If you do have to do something part way through then it is your responsibility to ensure you haven't broken something you've already checked. if people are going to be lazy and not bother checking their air again if they had to dekit then whatever BSAC do they can still cut corners. The real thing you'd be better off teaching is that if they do have to do something during their buddy check then a quick check of everything else again should be considered!

David

Sorry, but the issue here isnt that those who do BAR buddy
check need BRA as a better system, but thsoe that dont or who
do a sloppy one would benefit from BRA.
Yes of course the awnser would be to do it right and we all
tell our students that, but in the real world where mistakes
can happen and buddy checks can be omitted/cut short it seems
eminently more sensible to make the air check the final
operation. Hence BRA instead of BAR.

BTW

BWRAF is in fact BRA! PADI have IMO got it right.

TerryH

John Williams

11-07-2004, 15:55

Terry,
Once again you post the gospel according to Terry H - but then invite discussion. Just who are you trying to prove what to?...and why?

The shame of it is that when people try to discuss - you just shoot them down in flames. Hardly a discussion then!

The Buddy Check is just that - the final thing you do to your Buddy before you both hit the water - to make sure that everything works, is in place and you know how to work each other's kit.

If it is not...then make it work and put it in place and do another complete Buddy Check. Anything else and you either break off to put something right, forget where you are and miss something else - or complete the Buddy Check whilst trying to remember what was wrong and forget to fix it at the end. The end result is that you either forget something and/or your Buddy gets confused about how your kit works.

Before you hit the water do a Buddy Check (does not matter what system/mnemonic you use as long as its the last thing you do before you hit the water - and that your Buddy understands it!)

John

Mike Halligan

11-07-2004, 16:33

Once again you post the gospel according to Terry H - but then invite discussion. Just who are you trying to prove what to?...and why?

The shame of it is that when people try to discuss - you just shoot them down in flames. Hardly a discussion then!

Dear John,

Whenever Terry H closes with the word "discuss" it is code for
"derive from first principles the full range of possible arguments both for and against this statement and then use them to prove beyond doubt that I am right".

Regards,

Mike ;-)

terryh

11-07-2004, 17:32

:=Once again you post the gospel according to Terry H - but then invite discussion. Just who are you trying to prove what to?...and why?
:=
:=The shame of it is that when people try to discuss - you just shoot them down in flames. Hardly a discussion then!
:=
Dear John,

Whenever Terry H closes with the word "discuss" it is code for
"derive from first principles the full range of possible arguments both for and against this statement and then use them to prove beyond doubt that I am right".

Regards,

Mike

Well actually Mike it's the best way to get open minded ideas
on the forum. I've changed many a way of thinking, diving
and teaching from comments made on here. I'm not so far up
my own backside that I cant see other ways.

Perhaps just perhaps I wanted somebody to tell me I'm wrong,
argue the point. It is after all only my opinion and I'm as wrong as much as I'm right. Sadly what is after all a Sunday
afternoon respite from cleaning/sorting shedloads of dive kit
from yesterday has turned into a take a pop at Terry fest.

TerryH

terryh

11-07-2004, 17:39

Terry,
Once again you post the gospel according to Terry H - but then invite discussion. Just who are you trying to prove what to?...and why?

Jeeze John, what bit you on the a** today?

I put forward a point sprinkled with questions and plenty of
IMO's. So looks like we cant even post an idea on here
and argue options without the thought police having a go!!!

What am I trying to prove? Well just maybe It's topical to
me after witnessing another BSAC diver just about to mess up
on site yesterday dispite a so-called buddy check.

Thought I'd sound it out on here, but seems if I question any
response I get flamed.

The sensible thing would be to shut up and go away, but I've
never been that sensible.

TerryH

David Walker

11-07-2004, 18:44

:=I've never known circumstances where you'd need to turn off the air or disconnect more than one hose in the last bit of the buddy check - if its only one hose it'd likely something was just trapped or something, in which case you'd just put it straight back on, and everyone I know eg if it was the drysuit hose would just give a quick push of the button to make sure it still worked.

And in that scenario you have just turned off the air to get
the drysuit hose on, and used the residual air in the system
to test it. Your air might still not be fully on.

If someone is halfway through a buddy check, and finds their drysuit hose off, then firstly they should be able to connect it without touching anything else, and if they do get someone to turn the air off because it is difficult to get back on then they only have to remember for the next 10 seconds that it needs to be turned back on - apart from anything else, if they need to turn the tank off to reattach the hose then they also need to purge it! And as the drysuit inflator is part of bouyancy then it makes no difference to your air anyway!

Actual example 1 - Manifolded twinset isolator knocked after a
hose re-routing. Gauge showed full, but was showing only one
cylinder. Enough residual air in one side to use drysuit. Only
became apparent when the air started to go down considerably
quicker than it should and by then he was at 35m!

In which case they need to monitor air more effectively - even if they noticed when they got to 35m then there should be more than enough in one tank to surface perfectly safely. When you say knocked are you just talking knocked so it closed or knocked off completely? If it is just closed then you should be able to open it (otherwise why bother with the isolator?), or breathe off the other side (surely there is a reg on the other tank too?). Of course it's better to start the dive with things working properly, but things do sometimes go wrong.

Actual example 2 - Training dive at Stoney, Adv + Spt who were
dong there 1st dive in quite a few months. I wasnt with them,
but up-top waiting for them to clear area. Quick signal and
down they go, about a minute later up they come with a the Adv
looking like he had cologen injections in his lips.
Seems there was only residual air in his system, the buddy
failed to awnser to his responses and he only made it by
dumping his w/belt and finning like F*** to the surface.
He was on the 6m ledge. Anywhere else and he would have been a
gonner. Seems he had problems with his drysuit hose and failed
to re-connect and recheck his supply. What made it worse was
that it was his wife who failed to heed his signals for OOA.

So it failed in the first stage of the check again, in 'bouyancy', yet it wasn't picked up in the later 'air' part of the buddy check? You can't protect against everything, and if people don't complete even the normal buddy check then whatever order you do it in won't help.

All of which you have been trained to deal with. Bad. but
more recoverable than not having any air to breathe while doing
it.

Don't you generally jump in with your reg in your mouth? Two breaths and you'd know something was wrong! Before descending don't you have your reg in your mouth? Again, its a few seconds to breathe the system empty! If there's a problem with your air you should never get below the surface! If you have a problem with bouyancy however, you could easily drop down - and you're far less safe below the surface than floating happily on top of it!

Sorry, but the issue here isnt that those who do BAR buddy
check need BRA as a better system, but thsoe that dont or who
do a sloppy one would benefit from BRA.
Yes of course the awnser would be to do it right and we all
tell our students that, but in the real world where mistakes
can happen and buddy checks can be omitted/cut short it seems
eminently more sensible to make the air check the final
operation. Hence BRA instead of BAR.

So why did you ask for comments? You've clearly decided that your way is far better than any other, despite the flaws pointed out. I still believe that the responsibility falls on the diver to do their check correctly - if they don't then that is their problem! There is plenty of opportunity before you even get below the surface to realise a problem with your air supply so that should be an issue - yes it may be inconvenient to spend that extra minute on the surface while you find out why your reg isn't providing any air, but it should never pose a safety problem.
Like I said, whatever order you do it in doesn't matter, as long as it is done properly! If you don't do it right one way, doing it another way won't help you.

David

iainmsmith

11-07-2004, 19:31

The BSAC buddy mantra is BAR. For many years now I wondered
why it wasnt BRA. Political correctness? Early throwback to
a schoolboy sniggering type mentality? Who knows?

But serioius point. Is BAR instead of BRA more liley to cause
a problem?

This may seem a minor point, but the results of getting it
wrong are quite catastophic. I vote BRA not BAR.

Personally, I think worrying about the order of letters is missing the point. BAR is taught as a method of checking key features, but it's not the only way to ensure that they are done. As you point out, BRA works also, as does the ABC of the buddy check - Air, Buoyancy and Clips.

As long as the student clearly demonstrates that they know to check all of these items, I couldn't care less what order they do things in.

(And personally, I use BARZ as a buddy check - it's not nice hitting the water in Gildy in February then realising that your suit wasn't done up all the way! I'd feel worse (though in a nice warm, dry and cosy way!) if it was a student who did it)

Iain

terryh

11-07-2004, 19:50

Personally, I think worrying about the order of letters is missing the point. BAR is taught as a method of checking key features, but it's not the only way to ensure that they are done. As you point out, BRA works also, as does the ABC of the buddy check - Air, Buoyancy and Clips.

As long as the student clearly demonstrates that they know to check all of these items, I couldn't care less what order they do things in.

(And personally, I use BARZ as a buddy check - it's not nice hitting the water in Gildy in February then realising that your suit wasn't done up all the way! I'd feel worse (though in a nice warm, dry and cosy way!) if it was a student who did it)

Iain

Hmmm not missing the point, more being realistic.

As long as they do a buddy check who cares what the letters are
and if interrupted then of course it needs to be started again.

Trouble is that divers are human and will make mistakes.
Quite often very simple ones that would have been picked up on
a decent buddy check. So based on that, would having air as the
final act be better?

TerryH

David Walker

11-07-2004, 20:59

Trouble is that divers are human and will make mistakes.
Quite often very simple ones that would have been picked up on
a decent buddy check. So based on that, would having air as the
final act be better?

If people are going to cut a buddy check a little short for some reason (ie someone telling them to get in the water 'NOW'!) then the most important bit, the 'air', may be neglected. Not very likely, but then neither is someone turning their air off and disconnecting hoses during the 'releases' part of the buddy check, forgetting to reconnect everything, failing to run through the buddy check again, not noticing that they have no air as they first get into the water, and then descending to only notice their air is turned off as they reach 50m!

David

terryh

11-07-2004, 21:33

If people are going to cut a buddy check a little short for some reason (ie someone telling them to get in the water 'NOW'!) then the most important bit, the 'air', may be neglected. Not very likely, but then neither is someone turning their air off and disconnecting hoses during the 'releases' part of the buddy check, forgetting to reconnect everything, failing to run through the buddy check again, not noticing that they have no air as they first get into the water, and then descending to only notice their air is turned off as they reach 50m!

David

We book about 20 trips a year on hardboats and take up about
same number again as guests filling spaces unsold by other
clubs. This "exposes" us to many a club and diver.

Your average hardboat has 12 divers. In most cases the skippers
will estimate time to site and expect divers to be ready as
soon as they get there. This is especially true in bad weather
conditions. Nobody wants to be hanging around waiting for
slack.

Once the shot is in time is critical, so now you have a perfect
recipe for a missed or shortened buddy check. The most common
omition is the drysuit feed. Its not part of main system, that
was checked back in the car park/harbour. So if its not
connected now then it will be found during a very rushed buddy
check.

Trying to connect the hose while the system is charged with
gloves on can be tricky. What makes it worse is the use of
BC inflators instead of the correct drysuit inflator (Has a
larger ferule).
So you ask your buddy to switch off the air, purge, connect and
switch on again.

Chances of doing another air check are pretty slim. What makes
it worse is that the drysuit hose is normally done as part of
releases. So with BAR it is the last thing to be found and so
the air check would aready have been done.

You are absoltely right that the buddy check should be started
again, but you are the front pair and another 10 divers are
glaring at you to get in NOW. So you trust your buddy and in
you go.

Now change it to BRA. The hose was picked up during the R
bit, the whole system including drysuit funcion is checked
during the A and your in the water.

Please dont come back with the mantra "should have done
another check". What I am trying to discuss here is the idea
that when things arent done properly, BRA is better than BAR
as it accepts some divers dont redoe the check.

TerryH

iainmsmith

12-07-2004, 10:35

Once the shot is in time is critical, so now you have a
perfect recipe for a missed or shortened buddy check.

Terry,

If buddy checks are being rushed, does this not suggest that there has been inadequate warning given to kit up, ie, poor marshalling?

The most common omition is the drysuit feed. Its not part of
main system, that was checked back in the car park/harbour.
So if its not connected now then it will be found during a
very rushed buddy check.

"very rushed buddy check" - again I think we see the problem...

Trying to connect the hose while the system is charged with
gloves on can be tricky. What makes it worse is the use of
BC inflators instead of the correct drysuit inflator (Has a
larger ferule).
So you ask your buddy to switch off the air, purge, connect
and switch on again.

Why? If you can't disconnect and reconnect a drysuit feed with gloves on then a) you don't know how to use your kit properly and b) you get your buddy to do it c) you get a bystander to do it or d) you take a glove off.

Chances of doing another air check are pretty slim.

Slack drills are no excuse (though I take your point that we are all human). However, see below:

What makes it worse is that the drysuit hose is normally done
as part of releases.

Why? Surely, given the BSAC obsession with using your drysuit as your primary means of buoyancy control, this is a buoyancy device? You do teach according to the Word of BSAC, don't you? :-)

Heck, even in my Branch where we generally work outside this particular stipulation, the drysuit gets done as a "B" item. After all, surely it makes more sense to do, "BC inflates here, oral inflation like this, vent here, dump here, Drysuit inflates here, dumps here" (and, in so doing, actually demonstrating that the drysuit feed is plugged in and working) If you don't test the drysuit at that point, when do you?

I certainly don't teach people to disconnect the drysuit feed as part of "R" - after all, that's breaking apart a system which has already been proven to work - though it does get pointed out as something to disconnect.

So with BAR it is the last thing to be found and so
the air check would aready have been done.

Disagree - drysuit controls should be covered (and tested) before "A" is reached.

You are absoltely right that the buddy check should be started
again, but you are the front pair and another 10 divers are
glaring at you to get in NOW. So you trust your buddy and in
you go.

Rules Number 1 and 2 would seem to apply. No-one should ever be pressurised by anyone immediately before getting in the water. Any Marshal who allows this to happen is not doing his job and any group where "10 divers are glaring at you to get in NOW" would seem to be in dire need of a serious wake-up call and a reality check. Slack is rarely _that_ time critical

The Tabarka, in Scapa, is the only dive I've done where slack is so critical that a minute here or there might matter...and even there, I once had to (and had time to) make three entries, descents, looks around, ascents, waits on surface, pickups and re-entries on one slack.

Now change it to BRA. The hose was picked up during the R
bit, the whole system including drysuit funcion is checked
during the A and your in the water.

But you don't breath from your drysuit, so why check it as "A"? Buoyancy is where you test your buoyancy devices, Air where you make sure that you can breath and Releases is where you point out that which needs to be disconnected.

Please dont come back with the mantra "should have done
another check". What I am trying to discuss here is the idea
that when things arent done properly, BRA is better than BAR
as it accepts some divers dont redoe the check.

My counter suggestion is that by doing things at (what seems to me to be) their logical place in the buddy check, the issues you raise do not arise. Those that might arise would seem to be driven by inappropriate behaviour by other divers...which is something a half-competent Marshal should be all over.

Iain

terryh

12-07-2004, 11:27

:=Once the shot is in time is critical, so now you have a
:=perfect recipe for a missed or shortened buddy check.

Terry,

If buddy checks are being rushed, does this not suggest that there has been inadequate warning given to kit up, ie, poor marshalling?

:=The most common omition is the drysuit feed. Its not part of
:=main system, that was checked back in the car park/harbour.
:=So if its not connected now then it will be found during a
:=very rushed buddy check.

"very rushed buddy check" - again I think we see the problem...

:=Trying to connect the hose while the system is charged with
:=gloves on can be tricky. What makes it worse is the use of
:=BC inflators instead of the correct drysuit inflator (Has a
:=larger ferule).
:=So you ask your buddy to switch off the air, purge, connect
:=and switch on again.

Why? If you can't disconnect and reconnect a drysuit feed with gloves on then a) you don't know how to use your kit properly and b) you get your buddy to do it c) you get a bystander to do it or d) you take a glove off.

:=Chances of doing another air check are pretty slim.

Slack drills are no excuse (though I take your point that we are all human). However, see below:

:=What makes it worse is that the drysuit hose is normally done
:=as part of releases.

Why? Surely, given the BSAC obsession with using your drysuit as your primary means of buoyancy control, this is a buoyancy device? You do teach according to the Word of BSAC, don't you? :-)

Heck, even in my Branch where we generally work outside this particular stipulation, the drysuit gets done as a "B" item. After all, surely it makes more sense to do, "BC inflates here, oral inflation like this, vent here, dump here, Drysuit inflates here, dumps here" (and, in so doing, actually demonstrating that the drysuit feed is plugged in and working) If you don't test the drysuit at that point, when do you?

I certainly don't teach people to disconnect the drysuit feed as part of "R" - after all, that's breaking apart a system which has already been proven to work - though it does get pointed out as something to disconnect.

:=So with BAR it is the last thing to be found and so
:=the air check would aready have been done.

Disagree - drysuit controls should be covered (and tested) before "A" is reached.

:=You are absoltely right that the buddy check should be started
:=again, but you are the front pair and another 10 divers are
:=glaring at you to get in NOW. So you trust your buddy and in
:=you go.

Rules Number 1 and 2 would seem to apply. No-one should ever be pressurised by anyone immediately before getting in the water. Any Marshal who allows this to happen is not doing his job and any group where "10 divers are glaring at you to get in NOW" would seem to be in dire need of a serious wake-up call and a reality check. Slack is rarely _that_ time critical

The Tabarka, in Scapa, is the only dive I've done where slack is so critical that a minute here or there might matter...and even there, I once had to (and had time to) make three entries, descents, looks around, ascents, waits on surface, pickups and re-entries on one slack.

:=Now change it to BRA. The hose was picked up during the R
:=bit, the whole system including drysuit funcion is checked
:=during the A and your in the water.

But you don't breath from your drysuit, so why check it as "A"? Buoyancy is where you test your buoyancy devices, Air where you make sure that you can breath and Releases is where you point out that which needs to be disconnected.

:=Please dont come back with the mantra "should have done
:=another check". What I am trying to discuss here is the idea
:=that when things arent done properly, BRA is better than BAR
:=as it accepts some divers dont redoe the check.

My counter suggestion is that by doing things at (what seems to me to be) their logical place in the buddy check, the issues you raise do not arise. Those that might arise would seem to be driven by inappropriate behaviour by other divers...which is something a half-competent Marshal should be all over.

Iain

Good arguments Iain and you are absolutley right that the
Marshal should pick up on all this lot and there is no excuse
etc.

I disagree with "Slack is rarely _that_ time critical"
The Aeolian Skye had less than a 25 min window with a pretty
fierce current either side a week ago.

The last two "incidents" I witnessed as a "guest" (we took
third of a boat on each) had the helo out on one and the
ambulance at the dockside on the other.

Our group had a Marshal and we did the usual slate/buddy
checks etc. The other groups (Both of which were BSAC clubs),
did NO buddy checks and No Marshalling.

In this case BRA or BAR would have made no odds, but the fact
remains that although the buddy check should be done and the
Marshal be on the case, the reality in many cases is very
different.

It all comes down to this .......

If we accept that the situation will be less than perfect,
isnt a mantra that has air as the last action safer?

TerryH

iainmsmith

12-07-2004, 13:31

Good arguments Iain and you are absolutley right that the
Marshal should pick up on all this lot and there is no excuse
etc.

I disagree with "Slack is rarely _that_ time critical"
The Aeolian Skye had less than a 25 min window with a pretty
fierce current either side a week ago.

So, for a 25 minute window, does it _really_ matter if someone takes an extra 30s just to run through a formal buddy check?

The last two "incidents" I witnessed as a "guest" (we took
third of a boat on each) had the helo out on one and the
ambulance at the dockside on the other.

Our group had a Marshal and we did the usual slate/buddy
checks etc. The other groups (Both of which were BSAC clubs),
did NO buddy checks and No Marshalling.

In this case BRA or BAR would have made no odds, but the fact
remains that although the buddy check should be done and the
Marshal be on the case, the reality in many cases is very
different.

It all comes down to this .......

If we accept that the situation will be less than perfect,
isnt a mantra that has air as the last action safer?

I don't think so. If the diver/group are disciplined enough to do buddy checks, they'll do them properly in whatever order (because, through training and practice, they know the _concepts_ of what they need to check, and don't simply know a TLA which is to be religiously adhered to). If they're not disciplined enough to do a buddy check, they won't. For them, you could have a mnemonic spelling POSEIDON and it would still make not the slightest difference.

For initial training (which is when BAR needs to be drilled into divers), we have to accept that there is the potential for some little (and not so little!) schoolboy titillation and sniggering if BRA is used. Some instructors will be able to work past that without a blink. I can think of some instructors, though, who would probably be at least slightly embarrassed by using such an acronym. I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that discomfitting instructors in any way is a mistake.

That being the case, maybe one could come up with some other acronym that might put air at the end (but, as above, I really don't see the need), but given that BAR is established within BSAC as the mnemonic for the buddy check and works perfectly well, I personally don't see the need.

Iain

John Williams

12-07-2004, 14:44

Thought I'd sound it out on here, but seems if I question any
response I get flamed.

Not at all!

What seems to happen is that you see someone else doing something different to the way you do it - you then pop up on here to say something which always seems to read

"Hey guys - you'll never guess what idiotic practice I saw today! Don't you think if you all did it my way we'd all be a great deal safer? - but hey ...let's hear the silly ideas that you all have so that I can shoot them down and show how much better than you I am!"

Maybe I'm doing you a great disservice.

These fora ARE for discussion, they ARE for differences of opinion to be aired. They MIGHT just make a difference...but only if it appears that all those who contribute are in it for the improvement. Your posts just seem to always start out right and then end up degenerating into you telling people why they are wrong!

I know that some people find that challenging other people's ideas and having their own challenged allows all the chaff to be burned away and that hopefully all that is left in the crucible is the right answer. (this seems to be your philosophy)

However others don't like getting their hands burned in the heat. I generally only wade in when I feel that you are bullying others who have tried to respond positively - by shouting them down. All you will end up doing is making people wary of contributing to your debates...and this will mean that you have no opposing opinion to temper your own in the crucible (and you'll end up with the wrong answer!)

So...just back off a little and allow that others are allowed to contribute ...after all you did ask them to!

Make contribution a nice "fluffy" experience instead of a more "run the gauntlet one" and you might find that you get better results.

John

John Williams

12-07-2004, 14:59

..seems to be that whatever mnemonic you use should be standardised (to avoid confusion), not likely to cause titilation (and therefore distraction)

but most of all a Buddy Check should be

DONE IN PLENTY OF TIME AND DONE PROPERLY!

BSAC have standardised on BAR
BAR has important diving connotations (both during and after!)

All of us check the BARS in our cylinders every time but not all of us remember to wear a BRA (maybe Terry does?)
(see the scope for distraction?)

Lets stick with the tried and tested method and try to make sure that everyone does it every time and does it properly every time, in plenty of time!

It's much more important to do it than it is to argue about the order in which it might get done!

John

terryh

12-07-2004, 15:01

So, for a 25 minute window, does it _really_ matter if someone takes an extra 30s just to run through a formal buddy check?

Not in our club, but I've seen many that rush it as I suspect
so have you.

I can think of some instructors, though, who would probably be at least slightly embarrassed by using such an acronym. I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that discomfitting instructors in any way is a mistake.

Come on, BRA is part of everyday language. You would have to
be extremely sensitive for that one.

That being the case, maybe one could come up with some other acronym that might put air at the end (but, as above, I really don't see the need), but given that BAR is established within BSAC as the mnemonic for the buddy check and works perfectly well, I personally don't see the need.

Well yes PADI do, BWRAF. Weights in BSAC are always done with
releases. So it is BRA.

Do we need to change it? I'm not convinced myself, just talking
out loud.

PADI do ESA in training. We stopped doing it because of the
likelyhood of more incidents in training then there was ever
a need to do it for real.
So was it a perceived risk that changed policy or an actual
incident?

Apply that logic to buddy breathing.

So the question is - Have there been any incidents where air
last would have made a difference?

TerryH

terryh

12-07-2004, 15:14

tristan green

13-07-2004, 05:49

Well yes PADI do, BWRAF. Weights in BSAC are always done with
releases. So it is BRA.

Someone let me into the secret - what does the "F" stand for in the "PADI" acronym? I've not come across this one before.

Back when I learned I was taught the ABC - Air (regs + gauges), Bouyancy (BCD[STAB] + drysuit), Clips (BCD, weights + drysuit feed). Anyone remember when it changed to BAR, or why?

Cheers,
Tristan

Matts

13-07-2004, 08:09

Someone let me into the secret - what does the "F" stand for in the "PADI" acronym? I've not come across this one before.

Buoyancy Weights Releases Air Final OK

Back when I learned I was taught the ABC - Air (regs + gauges), Bouyancy (BCD[STAB] + drysuit), Clips (BCD, weights + drysuit feed). Anyone remember when it changed to BAR, or why?

I happen to have been taught BAR as a novice. Since then I have come across ABC, BWRAF, BARZ, SSS (surfacing, supply, secure) - and they all work. I tend to agree with Iain that the mneumonic itself does not matter, other than it helps if a group of students are using the same one. The prioroty is to teach a method which ensures you never enter the water with your air off, without buoyancy or with your kit around your ankles.

The buddy check is a final function check before you step into the non-life supporting environment. You are trying to answer a basic safety question - am I safe to enter the water, does my buddy agree? It is such an important question that we use a mneumonic which reminds us exactly what we need to check.

Regards
MattS

Katy Nicholson

14-07-2004, 06:35

V. interesting discussion. I largely subscribe to the school of thought that as long as you cover all bases it doesn't matter in which order. However I am upset that my mnemonic hasn't been mentioned by anyone - what about BARK. K means Kit (and my name - just in case I forget to take myself!). Always useful to talk your buddy through your kit (briefly!), whether you have a computert, where that emergency flag is stashed, the spare torch and your knife - especially when diving with a trainee / less qualified person who won't always have such a lot of 'bits'.

John Williams

14-07-2004, 20:33

If you want a fluffy reply goto petworld.

We are discussing the application of techniques and skills
that have a dramatic affect on the safety (or otherwise) of our
friends. I make NO apologies for arguing the point or
getting my hands burnt (which I have on many an occasion).

TerryH

And if you want a fight go to World Wrestling Federation!

If you want a discussion that all are welcome to participate in ...moderate your tone!

(People respond better to explanation than they do to ranted rhetoric!)

Andy Wade

14-07-2004, 21:20

terryh

14-07-2004, 22:58

If you want a discussion that all are welcome to participate in ...moderate your tone!

As I said, go to petworld.

TerryH

Dave

15-07-2004, 11:31

:=If you want a discussion that all are welcome to participate in ...moderate your tone!
:=

As I said, go to petworld.

Well , do you want discussions or do you just want to jump down peoples throats if they do not agree with the dogma according to Terry?

Dave

terryh

15-07-2004, 13:25

Well , do you want discussions or do you just want to jump down peoples throats if they do not agree with the dogma according to Terry?

Sorry Dave if it was the "dogma according to Terry" then I
would never accept I'm wrong. I am - frequently.

We all have our own way of approaching topics. I tend to go
with the flow until personal experience (not neccesarily just
the one occaison) flags a problem. Might me a perceived one
and just me, but I've found that sounding it out on here gets
more details/options in the open.

If I then pull apart/attack/disect replies than I expect
nothing less from anybody else of my ideas. That's not Dogma
that's getting rid of the Chaff.

Besides there is an easy awnser. Dont like it, dont reply.

TerryH

Paul Oliver

16-07-2004, 22:41

Dave

17-07-2004, 11:30

Well Terry more pedant stuff,

Oh well i use ABC Air, Buoyency, Clips.

Have done on all my BSAC instructor training and exams up to the AI Course - never a problem and obviously so minor as to not warrent a debrief point.

Regards

Paul

Glad to hear it. The whole thing seems a non issue to me. What is important with a buddy brief is that all the necessary checks are made. Things like BAR, BWAF etc are just there as aide memoires to assist people to remember the points to cover. As long as *all* checks are performed, what does it matter which comes in which order

Dave

terryh

17-07-2004, 12:30

Glad to hear it. The whole thing seems a non issue to me. What is important with a buddy brief is that all the necessary checks are made. Things like BAR, BWAF etc are just there as aide memoires to assist people to remember the points to cover. As long as *all* checks are performed, what does it matter which comes in which order

Well Mr.Pedantic here might want to question that.
Note I said might as I'm not sure myself.

As you say it is a non-issue as long as a good buddy check is
done, then any one of the mantras will do and order is largely
irrelevant. All agreed, yes?

But ......
It is an absolute fact that you will get variations from
full buddy check to none whatsoever. Ok we cant do much about
those that seem to be immune from getting it wrong, but what of
those who do a rudimentry check?

I started this thread with the idea that Air last would
increase the odds of the air not being left off in a sloppy
or interrupted buddy check. Almost all the awnsers have been to
say that it doesnt matter because you should do a full buddy
check.

Ok so we can put our head in the sand and keep spouting that
one or we can be more realistic and accept that some dont do
what they should. Then ask the question if there are any simple
things we can do to facilitate even a small percentage incease
in safety in these circumstances.

So please re-read the question.
Ignoring the facts that they should do a full buddy check
and accepting some will do a partial, would Air last as in
BRA or BWRAF be safer? Are there any incidents or anecdotes to
support this?

Thin I know, but IMO no thinner then stopping BB or ESA in
training.

TerryH

David Walker

17-07-2004, 19:00

So please re-read the question.
Ignoring the facts that they should do a full buddy check
and accepting some will do a partial, would Air last as in
BRA or BWRAF be safer? Are there any incidents or anecdotes to
support this?

People who aren't going to do a full buddy check more than likely won't use any of these anyway - whats the point in saying "I use 'BAR', but am only going to do 'R'", or equally "I use BRA, but i'm lazy so i'll just do 'A'"? People won't, people don't. People new to diving follow the training and do the full check, just as they should - they'll probably have experienced people there with them who will correct them if they go wrong. The more experienced, particularly with a regular buddy, do sometimes (or always) cut the buddy check short - but they know that if they aren't checking everything in order they will check that they have air, and many of them were taught with BAR. I sometimes miss bits out, or just do the check to myself - but the thing I always check is air... and I too was taught BAR.

You have to trust divers to have a bit of intelligence - if they are going to cut corners and not do full buddy checks, they should know what they're doing - if they don't, the marshall should step in and make sure they do it properly. If people are doing the 30th dive in a row with the same kit and the same buddy, there's little point in going through pointing out every clip and dump in your kit - they know already. Just be sure that you're happy your kit works and that's fine. But like I said, all these people are intelligent enough to check they have air and that it is turned on!

David

Dave

18-07-2004, 01:29

I started this thread with the idea that Air last would
increase the odds of the air not being left off in a sloppy
or interrupted buddy check. Almost all the awnsers have been to
say that it doesnt matter because you should do a full buddy
check.

Ok so we can put our head in the sand and keep spouting that
one or we can be more realistic and accept that some dont do
what they should. Then ask the question if there are any simple
things we can do to facilitate even a small percentage incease
in safety in these circumstances.

Depending on who I am diving with, the explicit check may be no more than to just air is on and that inflator works ( pretty much the B and A phases ) which takes just a cpl of seconds. With an inexperienced diver I would be inclined to go through the check in a more formal manner

If doing a full check with someone, then Air will be checked twice. On the B when checking buoyancy I teach that the "air in/out" check should be performed by adding and releasing air to/from the BC, so air being on is tested in both the B and A phases.

I would hope that if the check of the buoyancy fails that someone would catch on and switch the air. If they skip to the A phase without the B, then air will still be checked. I would find it strange if someone doing any form of buddy check would just check releases

Dave

terryh

18-07-2004, 13:20

Let's be realistic here and think about the very common
scenario that made me post this topic in the first place.

Your primary system was assembled and checked. The ONLY part
of the system which cannot be checked prior to kitting up,
is the drysuit feed. Not surprisingly it is by far the most
common ommision.

Ok so hopefully you become aware of it during the buddy check
and try to connect it. I dont have a problem, but I know some
who cant pull back the ferule and connect witout switching the
air off. Cold/wet hands (maybe it's the second dive) doesnt
help. Nor the small BC inflator ferule vs the larger Apex type.

So the air is switched off and this could quite easily be after
the A part of the buddy check. Now we all know that we should
start again, but real life doesnt work like that.

So if we had Air as the last operation, would such an act of
switching off, connecting and switching on be largly irrelevant?
Isnt it safer simply because the act of checking air hasnt
actually been done yet?

TerryH

iainmsmith

18-07-2004, 16:28

Ok so we can put our head in the sand and keep spouting that
one or we can be more realistic and accept that some dont do
what they should. Then ask the question if there are any
simple things we can do to facilitate even a small
percentage incease in safety in these circumstances.

So please re-read the question.
Ignoring the facts that they should do a full buddy check
and accepting some will do a partial, would Air last as in
BRA or BWRAF be safer? Are there any incidents or anecdotes
to support this?

I don't know. I believe you're suggesting the change in practice, so surely it should be your job to provide such real life incidents, not simply generate hypothetical scenarios.

You were concerned about people turning air off in order to connect drysuit feeds and not turning it back on again. Is it possible that people actually know to test the inflator after connecting the feed, even assuming that they forget to turn the air on?

In the absence of any posters here having come forward with real-life situations, is it possible that you're worrying about a non-issue?

Iain

David Walker

18-07-2004, 21:39

So the air is switched off and this could quite easily be after
the A part of the buddy check. Now we all know that we should
start again, but real life doesnt work like that.

I still have the issue that I can't see someone turning off the air, and not remembering to turn it back on. If you got your buddy to do it, they'd be ready to dive themself, have nowhere else to be and nothing else to do, so don't even need to let go of the cylinder valve for the couple of seconds that it takes you to connect the inflator. If they do let go and move away, then surely you'd still remember to turn the air on? And even if you didn't remember, you'd want to test the inflator having just connected it - and as you'd have had to purge the system (otherwise why turn it off?), then you wouldn't even get a short burst of inflation even if you did a very quick test. And if you didn't do that test, you'd put your reg in your mouth before you jumped in - again, no air to even get a single breath. Or you'd inflate your BCD fully before jumping in - no air for that either! If you did manage to get in the water without noticing, you'd find out as soon as you put your reg in ready to descend that the air wasn't on! I just can't see how doing the air last could make the slightest difference. If the divers concerned are completely out of it and don't remember during the buddy check, then they must notice before they jump in, and if not then then certainly before they descend. Only possibility for real danger is the divers involves are absolutely stupid, have no competence or diving skill whatsoever, don't remember during the buddy check, jump in without their reg or inflating their BCD, and then let all of their air out and get below the surface before putting their reg in and taking a breath! Now that really isn't very likely is it!

For the very very marginal benefit (maybe one person a year will remember to turn on their air during the buddy check rather than just before jumping in, but still not an issue), its a significant change to something thats been around for years.

Like I said before, I wouldn't particularly object to it being changed (unless we have to pay for new instruction materials in which case I would strongly object, unless they were free!), its just I don't see a need!

David

Dave

18-07-2004, 21:55

Isnt it safer simply because the act of checking air hasnt
actually been done yet?

Using BAR , it hasn't been done yet. BC and , optionally, drysuit inflator checks come under buoyancy. Air and Releases are yet to be covered. If someone is not going to continue a buddy check after finding problem with inflator then it doesnt matter what order things are done. In both BAR or BRA .. buoyancy comes before air. I see no issue.

Dave

Paul Oliver

18-07-2004, 23:32

Well

I try and get the 90 odd members of my branch to read this forum to educate themselves, and it has been very difficult to get them interested.

I fear that this thread has killed off what interest there was.

I used to learn lots from this forum but that has died off.

I will refrain from further comment as i've had a drink and KL always deletes me when i've been drinking.

So Sad,

Paul
DO Canterbury Divers, Branch 326

terryh

19-07-2004, 12:54

In the absence of any posters here having come forward with real-life situations, is it possible that you're worrying about a non-issue?

Maybe. Reason I asked is because I do have evidence of
real-life situations, two of which I have seen the consequences
myself.
I may well be wrong, which is why I asked the question.

One thing that has surprised me is the insistance that the
air doesnt need to get turned off while connecting the drysuit.
Agreed in most cases it doesnt, but on a boatload of 12
divers, odds are that at least a couple will do just that.

TerryH

john kendall

19-07-2004, 13:50

:=
:=In the absence of any posters here having come forward with real-life situations, is it possible that you're worrying about a non-issue?
:=

Maybe. Reason I asked is because I do have evidence of
real-life situations, two of which I have seen the consequences
myself.
I may well be wrong, which is why I asked the question.

One thing that has surprised me is the insistance that the
air doesnt need to get turned off while connecting the drysuit.
Agreed in most cases it doesnt, but on a boatload of 12
divers, odds are that at least a couple will do just that.

It's not that people are saying that Air doesn't get turned off. It is that Drysuit is checked in "B" for bouyancy. So if a problem is found, and fixed, the next thing on the list is "A" for Air anyway.

I think it is much much more important to drill into people to do proper and adequate checks before jumping in, rather than the order the letters occur.

In my own case, I do a complete check on myself before I do anything else. Then if I am diving with a trainee or lesser experience buddy, I will do a full formal buddy check with them.

John

David Walker

19-07-2004, 18:11

One thing that has surprised me is the insistance that the
air doesnt need to get turned off while connecting the drysuit.
Agreed in most cases it doesnt, but on a boatload of 12
divers, odds are that at least a couple will do just that.

*cries*

Just please please read what has been written! Some people may need to turn air off to connect a drysuit hose, most people accept that, but there's no reason that it should cause any problem, and no reason to reorder the buddy check.

If you do teach people to check the drysuit hose as a release, as it sounds like you do, then maybe you should reconsider the fact that if you're wearing a drysuit then it is an essential bouyancy control, and so comes under 'B'... which is before 'A'!
And of course, read my other post for why, whichever order you do it in, it should not ever cause any problems for anyone that changing the order of the buddy check would fix.

David

terryh

19-07-2004, 23:48

Just please please read what has been written! Some people may need to turn air off to connect a drysuit hose, most people accept that, but there's no reason that it should cause any problem, and no reason to reorder the buddy check.

If you do teach people to check the drysuit hose as a release, as it sounds like you do, then maybe you should reconsider the fact that if you're wearing a drysuit then it is an essential bouyancy control, and so comes under 'B'... which is before 'A'!
And of course, read my other post for why, whichever order you do it in, it should not ever cause any problems for anyone that changing the order of the buddy check would fix.

Ok I think this has been done to death, but one last go.

Well I dont teach it as part of release. I do it at Buoyancy
(inflate) AND Releases (pull ferule back). That way it's
covered from both angles. After all you may need your buddy
to ditch that set during a rescue attempt and you cant always
be sure that he/she is aware of drysuit operations.

Look at this way. Nobody ever jumps in without air on, right?
Obviously wrong we know it has happened (seen it 4x myself).

So that means some checked, some didnt.
Cant do much about those that didnt, so what of those that did?

All I'm saying is that there is a possibilty that Air last may
(note I said may) be better in these circumstances.

TerryH

Dave

20-07-2004, 09:09

Look at this way. Nobody ever jumps in without air on, right?
Obviously wrong we know it has happened (seen it 4x myself).

So that means some checked, some didnt.
Cant do much about those that didnt, so what of those that did?

But that does not show that there was anything wrong with a buddy check, just that it wasnt done. If they missed the air being switched off during Bouyancy ( inflate / deflate jacket/suit ) *and* Air, why would they catch it in another order. Assuming that the buoyancy element was checked properly, then an unattached hose would be spotted. Once fixed, the next check is air. On reaching releases, there should be no possibility of unconnected hoses *iff* the buddy check was properly performed.

I see nothing to suggest that changing the buddy check order would improve things. All that has been suggested to me is that people have not been performing the individual checks properly

Dave

terryh

20-07-2004, 10:47

I see nothing to suggest that changing the buddy check order would improve things. All that has been suggested to me is that people have not been performing the individual checks properly

Ok so how is it that the OOA incidents that I'm aware of have
all had one thing in common. A re-routing/change of hose etc.
which required the air to be turned off. In one case the
isolating knob of a twin was knocked shut.

What seems to be the common denomonator is that the buddy is
the one doing the off/on. AFAIK they all had done buddy checks.

So conclusion is that they did a detailed air first, but missed
that all important re-check after re-configiring kit.
Move air to last and there is no need for a secondry check.

We are definately going round in circles, so unless anybody
has anything new to add, I'm outta here.

Rgds
TerryH

Dave

20-07-2004, 11:06

What seems to be the common denomonator is that the buddy is
the one doing the off/on. AFAIK they all had done buddy checks.

So conclusion is that they did a detailed air first, but missed
that all important re-check after re-configiring kit.
Move air to last and there is no need for a secondry check.

What you seem to keep ignoring is that an unconnected hose should be found during the B phase. Continuing on from B will lead on to air being after the missing connector being spotted. Whether BAR or BRA is used, the A is after the B. If it is getting screwed up with BAR, I see no reason why it would be any better with BRA

For them to have done air beforehand, then they'd have to be doing ABR or ARB

Dave

terryh

20-07-2004, 12:33

What you seem to keep ignoring is that an unconnected hose should be found during the B phase.

So you never got your hose/octo caught under your BC.
Never had the croch strap stuck up your back?
Never had ......

There is a whole list of possibles that doesnt come under
buoyancy.

Continuing on from B will lead on to air being after the missing connector being spotted. Whether BAR or BRA is used, the A is after the B. If it is getting screwed up with BAR, I see no reason why it would be any better with BRA

Nope. If you have ANY operation after Air then you have the
chance of a change in configeration and that may mean switching
the air off. So do BAR and you still have Releases.

For them to have done air beforehand, then they'd have to be doing ABR or ARB

So isnt BAR air beforehand? I'm talking Air last not Air first.

TerryH

David Walker

21-07-2004, 19:43

So you never got your hose/octo caught under your BC.

But octo *is* air, so no problem!
Hose is bouyancy or air, and air is the latter of the two

Never had the croch strap stuck up your back?

No reason to turn off the air unless you have a seriously dodgy setup. If you take hoses off it's most likely to be bouyancy (ie drysuit hose), so why not do that last?

Never had ......

Nope...

There is a whole list of possibles that doesnt come under
buoyancy.

:=For them to have done air beforehand, then they'd have to be doing ABR or ARB
So isnt BAR air beforehand? I'm talking Air last not Air first.

Only in ABR and ARB does air come before a drysuit hose - that was the point being made. With just about any other mixture of B, A and R, the drysuit hose (the thing you've talked about throughout the thread) would be checked before the air.

Another way to look at it - if the drysuit hose does cause a lot of problems, that is because the buddy check as is stands (ie BAR) isn't done in the correct order - if you try to put in a new order, that introduces more confusion, and most likely people don't do things in any particular order anyway.

And another possibility - why not RAB? If the drysuit hose is the common problem you keep talking about, then if you check that first and have a problem with releases, then you may forget to reconnect the drysuit hose.
And with BRA, what if something goes wrong in air that means you have to unclip a buckle or something to put something right. Not doing releases last means you may jump in the water with a clip undone - and you're probably less likely to notice something like that than you are to miss the fact that your reg has absolutely no air in whatsoever. If you go in without buckles done up properly, the impact could easily knock it completely out and you find yourself floating around with your kit strapped only around one arm, pulling you sideways and under! Hardly safe is it!

The point? Whichever order you advocate, there is always something that could go wrong in the last stage that messes up something you did earlier. If BSAC changed to BRA and then someone had an accident because they forgot to reclip thier waist band after freeing a trapped reg, there would be calls that the new way was dangerous and it should be changed back. If someone has an accident because we keep BAR and someone forgets to reconnect a drysuit hose after a problem with a trapped reg, then equally it could be argued that if we all just listened to Terry it'd never have happened. So many possibilities - and the common solution is just to do a full buddy check, and if you do find something wrong and have to unclip, turn off, dekit, move, or in any way modify anything, then you check those things you modified again. Its the only way you will prevent preventable buddy-check-caused accidents. Personally, i'll continue to do a full check when diving with less experienced people, and with others i'll do something appropriate to the dive, conditions, and the particular buddy.

David

terryh

21-07-2004, 22:06

If you go in without buckles done up properly, the impact could easily knock it completely out and you find yourself floating around with your kit strapped only around one arm, pulling you sideways and under! Hardly safe is it!

But that's my point. It makes no odds if you have/havnt re-done
your buckles, loose your weightbelt etc. With a working reg in
your mouth you can breathe and sort it out.

The point? Whichever order you advocate, there is always something that could go wrong in the last stage that messes up something you did earlier.:=

Agreed, but whatever goes wrong you stand a better chance of
getting out of it, if you have an air supply while you are
doing it.

TerryH

Matts

22-07-2004, 20:16

But that's my point. It makes no odds if you have/havnt re-done
your buckles, loose your weightbelt etc. With a working reg in
your mouth you can breathe and sort it out.

So you don't think having the reg ripped out is a possible consequemce of jumping in with loose kit?

Agreed, but whatever goes wrong you stand a better chance of
getting out of it, if you have an air supply while you are
doing it.

Terry I can see what you are getting at but COMPLETELY disagree with your premise. The order is immaterial because the procedure must be completed entirely to be valid - like a pilots pre-flight check. The only optional part is the buddy. Most experienced divers will have done ABC, BAR, SSS or whatever, themselves before verifying the check to their buddy at the side of the boat.

Entering the water without checking buoyancy, breathing supply and that your kit is secure simply is not safe and that I feel is what we should be endeavouring to get across. IMHO this thread would be far more useful if we were discussing how buddy checks could be taught better and how students can be taught to manage time pressures. The procedure is not at fault, the way it is taught may be.

Of course this is BSAC and there is no reason why you can't teach BRA. As long as the procedure/mnemonic covers buoyancy, air, releases you are free to teach it. Personally I will continue to teach BAR and strive to find techniques which ensure my trainees never forget to do all of it.

Rgds
Matt

wendell paul griffiths

04-08-2004, 08:22

here here
no more to be said

Taff

Terry,
Once again you post the gospel according to Terry H - but then invite discussion. Just who are you trying to prove what to?...and why?

The shame of it is that when people try to discuss - you just shoot them down in flames. Hardly a discussion then!

The Buddy Check is just that - the final thing you do to your Buddy before you both hit the water - to make sure that everything works, is in place and you know how to work each other's kit.

If it is not...then make it work and put it in place and do another complete Buddy Check. Anything else and you either break off to put something right, forget where you are and miss something else - or complete the Buddy Check whilst trying to remember what was wrong and forget to fix it at the end. The end result is that you either forget something and/or your Buddy gets confused about how your kit works.

Before you hit the water do a Buddy Check (does not matter what system/mnemonic you use as long as its the last thing you do before you hit the water - and that your Buddy understands it!)

John