View Full Version : Do Qualifications
chrispatterson
29-09-2008, 13:01
What is the required minimum qualification requred to be a DO within a club ?
There is no minimum requirement.
It is recommended that the DO be a BSAC Advanced Diver or above.
It is recommended that the DO be an OWI, or if not, then the training officer appointed by the DO should be an OWI or above.
It used to be the case that if an AD wanted the post then they would win over any less qualified perosn automatically, however anyone may now be elected DO
Any less qualified DO is going to need a lot of help from more experienced branch members and from his/her region.
Iain C.
Chris Cherrington
29-09-2008, 13:15
What is the required minimum qualification requred to be a DO within a club ?
A slight mental inbalance??
Chirs
slight mental inbalance
Only slight? :D
Tony Dwyer
29-09-2008, 15:44
A slight mental inbalance??
Chirs
Towards Masochism :)
Tristan Green
29-09-2008, 15:46
A slight mental imbalance??
ChrisBoundless enthusiam and skin as thick as a rhino :D
Cheers,
Tristan
DO, retired - I got out young :cool:
Richard Whitcombe
29-09-2008, 18:02
Going further into this, what if the DO is only a dive leader grade but the club has an advanced diver who doesnt want the post?
Does the DO then have to get things sanctioned by the advanced diver?
Where does this "lead instructor" thing come into it then - who can sign off the qualification in this situation?
Richard
The lead instrutor only relates to Instruction & Diver Training.
Basically, if the DO is not a QI (Qualified Instructor) then a lead instructor must be appointed. The lead instructor, MUST be a QI.
If there is no QI in the branch, then the branch cannot train divers without direct supervision of a QI.
With regard to the issue of a branch with a DO who is less senior than other members with regard to diving &/or Instructor grade. This should not present the DO with a problem. In fact, in my branch the current DO is an AD OWI, in a branch with FCD's & AI's.
Gareth
Going further into this, what if the DO is only a dive leader grade but the club has an advanced diver who doesnt want the post?
Does the DO then have to get things sanctioned by the advanced diver?
Where does this "lead instructor" thing come into it then - who can sign off the qualification in this situation?
You need to have a read of the Branch Officers' Handbook starting with Section 3.4.1 The Branch Committee; here is an extract:
Branch Diving Officer:
The Branch Diving Officer is the National Diving Officer's representative at Branch level, as defined in BSAC Rules. If appropriately qualified, the Branch Diving Officer will be the lead instructor of a Branch; and will be thus empowered to award (Section 4.4.4) Ocean Diver, Sports Diver, Dive Leader and Advanced Diver qualifications to members within their own Branch. Much of the Branch Diving Officer's responsibilities are contained in the Management of Diving (Chapter 4), an overview of the role can be found here.
A Branch Diving Officer should hold at least the qualification of BSAC Advanced Diver and ideally be a BSAC Qualified Instructor (minimum Open Water Instructor). If not, they should nominate a Qualified Instructor (minimum Open Water Instructor) to be lead instructor of the Branch. The nominated individual will then award diving qualifications in accordance with current guidance, see award a diving qualification (Section 4.4.4).
I can't give you the link as I can't log-in to the "Member's Only" area of BSAC.com from this PC.
Regards
Edward
Richard Whitcombe
29-09-2008, 20:16
Still unclear about that. If the DO isnt an AD and there is an AD in the branch then does that mean only the AD can award the qualifications? in which case isnt the DOs role completely pointless?
Can a non AD diving officer appoint himself as the lead instructor ?
What if the club HAS no advanced divers (which is a situation ive seen in several clubs) ?
Richard
Qualifications can only be awarded by QI's (qualifed instructors). The AD qualification is irrelevent when we are talking about awarding BSAC qualifcations.
If the DO is not a QI he cannot award a diving qualification. In the event that a DO is NOT a QI, a Lead Instructor must be nominated by the DO. An LI MUST be a QI.
It is sensible that the LI is the most senior QI in the branch, assuming he/she will takeon the responsibility.
Gareth
Richard Whitcombe
29-09-2008, 20:43
I worded that badly.
Lets try this situation:
A club DO is a dive leader/OWI. The club has an advanced diver/advanced instructor somewhere.
The AD/AI doesnt want the DO role.
Can that club DO award qualifications (up to DL level)?
Situation 2:
A club DO is a DL/OWI. The club has NO advanced divers or advanced instructors. Can the DO therefore also be the lead instructor and still award qualifications up to DL grade?
Richard
The DO, as a DL + OWI can award qualifications all the way up to AD.
The restrictions are on the Instructor doing the teaching, not the LI or DO. So, as long as the instructor teaching was an AD OWI, & where required an AI, there is no issue.
The issue of the recommendation that an AD is the DO is based on the theoretical limitations of the diving qualification. An AD, can plan and manage diving anywhere. Where as, in theory, a DL can only plan & manage dives to sites familer to the branch (DL).
Gareth
(As I Understand it)
Still unclear about that. If the DO isnt an AD and there is an AD in the branch then does that mean only the AD can award the qualifications? in which case isnt the DOs role completely pointless?
No, only a Qualified Instructor (QI), minimum - Open Water Instructor (OWI) can award a diving qualification. However an QI who is only a Dive Leader can NOT award Advanced Diver.
Can a non AD diving officer appoint himself as the lead instructor ?
No, they must be a QI.
What if the club HAS no advanced divers (which is a situation ive seen in several clubs) ?
Then diver qualifications can be signed-off by The Regional Coach or an AD/QI from another Branch. Its all in the Branch Officers' Handbook (BOH).
However, if the BOH isn't clear please let me know, when I do the next update I'll take your comments on board.
Regards
Edward
Richard
The DO, as a DL + OWI can award qualifications all the way up to AD.
(As I Understand it)
Not quite right, sorry. See Section 4.4.6, sub-section "Qualifications above the level held by the lead instructor:"
In the event of wishing to qualify an Advanced Diver when the lead instructor does not hold this qualification themselves, the lead instructor must seek guidance, ideally from the BSAC Regional Coach, a Qualified Instructor from within the Branch or from neighbouring Branches whom holds the Advanced Diver qualification. Under these circumstances, they should make the decision as to whether the qualification should be awarded and if so, should either:
• Recommend to the Branch Committee that the lead instructor awards and signs the qualification.
• Confirm the award and sign the qualification themselves.
In either case, the course of action taken must be recorded in Branch Committee Minutes (Section 3.4.4) and subsequently entered in Branch Training Records.
Regards
Edward
I can't give you the link as I can't log-in to the "Member's Only" area of BSAC.com from this PC.
Annoying isn't it.
Janos
Richard Whitcombe
29-09-2008, 21:12
Thats ok - its refusing to let me login at the moment anyway.
Anyway i think its clear now. Unless someone wants to become an advanced diver then a DO who is DL/OWI can award the qualifications.
Not quite right, sorry. See Section 4.4.6, sub-section "Qualifications above the level held by the lead instructor:"
Regards
Edward
Edward
Although this is of academic interest, why should this be the case.
Despite my misgivings, the current guidelines state that the DO (or LI) cannot refuse to sign a QRB if the QRB has been signed by an appropriately qualified instructor (in fact, I was actually told if the QRB had been signed by a QI, even if the QI was not authorised to sign the QRB the DO HAD to countersign the QRB - In this case I wouldn't, I would resign first).
So, on the basis that the LI or DO cannot refuse to sign a QRB, why do they then need to get approval if the grade exceeds their own, but cannot use there discretion if the grade is the same or lower than their own?
We seem to have an anomaly in the BOH!
Gareth
Thats ok - its refusing to let me login at the moment anyway.
Anyway i think its clear now. Unless someone wants to become an advanced diver then a DO who is DL/OWI can award the qualifications.
Up to Dive Leader, Yes.
Edward
Edward
Although this is of academic interest, why should this be the case.
Despite my misgivings, the current guidelines state that the DO (or LI) cannot refuse to sign a QRB if the QRB has been signed by an appropriately qualified instructor (in fact, I was actually told if the QRB had been signed by a QI, even if the QI was not authorised to sign the QRB the DO HAD to countersign the QRB - In this case I wouldn't, I would resign first).
So, on the basis that the LI or DO cannot refuse to sign a QRB, why do they then need to get approval if the grade exceeds their own, but cannot use there discretion if the grade is the same or lower than their own?
We seem to have an anomaly in the BOH!
Gareth
Anomaly, interesting. But before I fire it off to the NDO lets look at what we have.
Your DO a DL/OWI gets presented with a QRB for a prospective AD. Right so far.
The DO contacts the Regional Coach who either signs the QRB themself or authorised the DO to sign it.
Either way its recorded in the Branch Committee's minutes.
Sorry, I don't see the anomaly.
There is no reason why a LI can not check with HQ that the QI numbers in the QRB are valid. I've seen one QRB made up by a prospective student and presented for signature. You don't have to sign it off on the spot.
Edward
Edward
Although this is of academic interest, why should this be the case.
Despite my misgivings, the current guidelines state that the DO (or LI) cannot refuse to sign a QRB if the QRB has been signed by an appropriately qualified instructor (in fact, I was actually told if the QRB had been signed by a QI, even if the QI was not authorised to sign the QRB the DO HAD to countersign the QRB - In this case I wouldn't, I would resign first).
So, on the basis that the LI or DO cannot refuse to sign a QRB, why do they then need to get approval if the grade exceeds their own, but cannot use there discretion if the grade is the same or lower than their own?
We seem to have an anomaly in the BOH!
Gareth
Because in signing the DO is also saying that the candidate has received adequate instruction. The DO may not be able to judge the quality of the training if they have not received training for that qualification themselves.
The anomoly is that section 4.4.5 says that there are adequate grounds for refusal to award a qualification.
Janos
chrispatterson
30-09-2008, 10:26
The reason I asked the question was in the future our DO will be retiring, at this moment in time we have quite a few DL's an Advanced Instructor.
The question wasn't related to the sighning of QRB's as we have an advanced Instructor. The problem which I can see will arise is he may not want to take on the role of DO which then only leaves us with DL's
how does this affect us as regards to dive planning on a new site ?
The only way I could see around this would be for the DO ( Presumably a DL ) approving dives that are known to the club and if it's a new site that this would have to go to the Advanced instructor for approval.
What do you think ?
Ian@1904
30-09-2008, 12:07
The only way I could see around this would be for the DO ( Presumably a DL ) approving dives that are known to the club and if it's a new site that this would have to go to the Advanced instructor for approval.
What do you think ?Rather than trying to live by a rule book, how about applying some common sense.
Make sure that your DO is an experienced diver and knows what questions to ask. Most UK dive sites can be thoroughly investigated by internet, forums, skippers, and dive magazines.
The first ever trip I organised involved living on an island for three days, taking all provisions with us, arranging gas fills on the island, permission to land the boat on the island, and permission to dive off the island. Good job I was only a PADI diver when I did that :) All the diving was within my qualifications :)
At the time I became DO we had no AD or active OWI in our branch. I did a couple of courses. Seems like a good time for a few DLs to do the AD course.
johnskerry
30-09-2008, 13:22
I would have thought the Instructor qualification was more relevant than the diving grade for a DO. As I understand it a DO who is a DL OWI can award up to DL qualification.
The question I ask myself is how relevant is any diving grade to the job of being a DO, or more to the point do branches really need a DO anymore anyway ?.
Nigel Hewitt
30-09-2008, 13:43
...or more to the point do branches really need a DO anymore anyway ?
Well a branch needs a lead person to organise diving and slot in the conditions to make that safe diving. It often is the case that a lot of the club may be novices or relative newcomers so they need someone to pull the experience trick and say 'problem' to a dive plan. BSAC has formalised this office and also initially pulled them into the training structure although with the 'Lead Instructor' role that can now be hived off.
Does a club with few novices need a DO? That's a question for a bar fight. If a club wants to be more than just an association of people who go diving probably yes. I am a classic 'somebody who goes diving but happens to be a member of a BSAC club' and I've been very happy with my DOs over the years. Sensible, helpful people who haven't gone silly on me when I come back from a deep water trip with big numbers in the log or when I turn up for a club dive to 20m with helium in the rebreather. I even told my DO I was off to do Mod3 on the rebreather (100m hypoxic course) before I went this time which I was a bit dubious about doing before. I do, occasionally, hear of DOs with an attitude problem but I suspect they are few and far between. It's not like they can actually stop somebody diving so it is the type that solve rather than generate problems are the ones that stay in the job.
johnskerry
30-09-2008, 14:02
Yes I quite agree a branch needs a lead member, but is this person the DO anymore.
Members can book training, carry it out and the DO can be kept out of this loop: his only involvement may be to stamp a book, is this responsibility for training ?
Members of BSAC direct are I assume covered by BSACs insurance, but who is their DO and what knowledge of what they are up to does he or she have? Why should branch members be treated in a more onerous way!
The fact is BSAC no doubt for good reasons have consistently undermined the position of branch DO and branches in general, maybe we should recognise this and change the rules accordingly.
John (DO of 0833)
Nigel Hewitt
30-09-2008, 15:23
The fact is BSAC no doubt for good reasons have consistently undermined the position of branch DO and branches in general, maybe we should recognise this and change the rules accordingly.
A year or so ago I wrote on the forum that I saw a trend in clubs to shut off training at Sports Diver and this shows now as branches do not have enough advanced divers to cover the more onerous jobs like DO.
I do worry that if we don't reverse this drift we will become a club of 'same again' local dives and 'all done for us' foreign trips, attractive to new divers who appreciate our well oiled 'go diving' machine but slowly we will decline to accepting crossovers and doing 'little' dives while the sub class of techies look outside BSAC. This I see happening almost regardless of what BSAC training put in at the top as tech courses because they are, more often than not, school courses not branch courses and so are just one option for a tech training. I'm not sure how to stop it other than making more advanced training (DL/AD/FCD/AI) far more accessible so we suck people up to the higher grades while they are still relatively new divers and still into the training thing.
In BSAC fantasy land the DO is a benevolent father figure to a branch, embodying people skills, diving skills, second sight and the patience of Job. In reality they are normally somebody with a pressure job who has taken on a club task more as a duty than a pleasure. It has to be done or the club withers away but the poor soul can't see anybody else doing it and the other possible candidates have already done their turn.
Members of BSAC direct are I assume covered by BSACs insurance, but who is their DO and what knowledge of what they are up to does he or she have? Why should branch members be treated in a more onerous way!
John (DO of 0833)
As a branch member for 20 years, I have never told my DO what I'm up to when it is non Branch related, if it is branch related - then I'd abide by the branch rules.
A branch member does not have to tell the branch, they are covered by insurance when following SDP (and covered often not following SDP)
I remember about 10 years ago a Branch DO on a liveaboard being outraged that I had not told my own branch DO (or "ego" as it is often best pronounced)
Comparison with BSAC direct is tricky as I believe BSAC direct is not a training branch (BSAC instructors are not independent but train within the branch) an I don't think it can award qualifications.
As far as the BSAC undermining the Branches, "oh, whatever",
Tony (ex branch DO, Ex Areas Coach for what ever it is worth)
Richard Whitcombe
30-09-2008, 16:02
A year or so ago I wrote on the forum that I saw a trend in clubs to shut off training at Sports Diver and this shows now as branches do not have enough advanced divers to cover the more onerous jobs like DO.
Pretty much describes ours. Lots of SDs, a few DLs and thats about it. We have 2 ADs and none of the dive leaders are interested in doing advanced (myself included) as the qualifiction is viewed as pointless from a diving point of view. It doesn't allow you deeper, longer or anything else and as far as diving skills go most go outside to to TDI/IANTD and others.
The AD grade doesn't offer enough to make people want to bother doing it.
In reality they are normally somebody with a pressure job who has taken on a club task more as a duty than a pleasure. It has to be done or the club withers away but the poor soul can't see anybody else doing it and the other possible candidates have already done their turn.
Thats what it is here and in a few others i can think of. The DO is doing it purely as nobody else will stand and is only there because bsac say you must have one. We havent had anyone thats WANTED to be do for years.
johnskerry
30-09-2008, 16:08
Undermine is maybe not the right thing to say but certainly a feeling of lack of consultation of where BSAC are going.
The reason I asked the question was in the future our DO will be retiring, at this moment in time we have quite a few DL's an Advanced Instructor.
The question wasn't related to the sighning of QRB's as we have an advanced Instructor. The problem which I can see will arise is he may not want to take on the role of DO which then only leaves us with DL's
how does this affect us as regards to dive planning on a new site ?
The only way I could see around this would be for the DO ( Presumably a DL ) approving dives that are known to the club and if it's a new site that this would have to go to the Advanced instructor for approval.
What do you think ?
The DO does not have to be the most experienced, most qualified, or even most certified diver in the club. What is important is that they ensure that the diving in the club is safe. This can be achieved by delegation, so if the DO ensures that the Management of diving in the branch is carried out to a sufficient standard then this amounts to the same thing.
If I were Managing a trip to (say) a reef which was a pick-your-depth reef between 80m and 8m, and some divers asked if they could dive the bottom. Then as Dive Manager I don’t need to be trimix trained myself to approve the dive. I don’t need to know gas plans and so on. What I do need to know is that the divers had the right qualifications, and were aware of the relevant parts of BSAC SDPs.
I would say the same applies to your example and diving an unknown site – as long as the DO is satisfied that the proposed marshall is competent to Manage the trip then it’s ok.
Janos
If I were Managing a trip to (say) a reef which was a pick-your-depth reef between 80m and 8m, and some divers asked if they could dive the bottom. Then as Dive Manager I don’t need to be trimix trained myself to approve the dive. I don’t need to know gas plans and so on. What I do need to know is that the divers had the right qualifications, and were aware of the relevant parts of BSAC SDPs.
I would say the same applies to your example and diving an unknown site – as long as the DO is satisfied that the proposed marshall is competent to Manage the trip then it’s ok.
Janos
Having been a DL DO for 3? years - it works in practise, so long as you coordinate the diving, ask for advice when you need it, it is OK.
Iain.
A year or so ago I wrote on the forum that I saw a trend in clubs to shut off training at Sports Diver and this shows now as branches do not have enough advanced divers to cover the more onerous jobs like DO.
This is the issue that has been banded around for the last few years. Its back to the AI in the branch. i.e if you have an AI then it appears to be much easier to get people through to AD. I have totally given up on AD training in our branch as the AD trainees found the process too stressful. (and thats not to say that the region were not very helpful in providing "AD examiners" They did on each and every occasion that I asked for one.
That means that we just don't get new AD divers any more. I only know one candidate that has got through since 1995.
The result is that a lot of divers stay at DL. We have quite a few with experience of diving that streches from 10 to 25 years. In reality they are totaly capable of organising dives to unknown destintations, or anything new and adventurous. They just don't see any benifits above the effort required to get to AD.
In regards to a DO that is either DL/OWI or AD/OWI, I don't think it makes much practical difference. The AD/OWI are few and far between. The DL/OWI's are more than capable of evaluating and checking proposed dives to anywhere. Because someone is a DL does not stop them organising adventourous diving.
I do worry that if we don't reverse this drift we will become a club of 'same again' local dives and 'all done for us' foreign trips, attractive to new divers who appreciate our well oiled 'go diving' machine but slowly we will decline to accepting crossovers and doing 'little' dives while the sub class of techies look outside BSAC. This I see happening almost regardless of what BSAC training put in at the top as tech courses because they are, more often than not, school courses not branch courses and so are just one option for a tech training. I'm not sure how to stop it other than making more advanced training (DL/AD/FCD/AI) far more accessible so we suck people up to the higher grades while they are still relatively new divers and still into the training thing.
I guess I agree with that. And probably would say that eventually you would have to ask yourself, what a BSAC branch would offer above and beyond a PADI Club. If branches don't offer some sort of added value then you start to lose the crossover stream too. Sounds like the incident pit to me.
In BSAC fantasy land the DO is a benevolent father figure to a branch, embodying people skills, diving skills, second sight and the patience of Job. In reality they are normally somebody with a pressure job who has taken on a club task more as a duty than a pleasure. It has to be done or the club withers away but the poor soul can't see anybody else doing it and the other possible candidates have already done their turn.
The DO post is more than just signing logbooks. Thesedays a certain drive is required to push the club (is it called motivation) forward. Without it the branch will wither away. I am not sure I know the answers to any of that either.
But it is fairly obvious to me that the step betwen DL and AD is very high. And needs to be flattened somehow.
Gary
Adrian Kelland
30-09-2008, 21:11
A year or so ago I wrote on the forum that I saw a trend in clubs to shut off training at Sports Diver and this shows now as branches do not have enough advanced divers to cover the more onerous jobs like DO.
I do worry that if we don't reverse this drift we will become a club of 'same again' local dives and 'all done for us' foreign trips, attractive to new divers who appreciate our well oiled 'go diving' machine but slowly we will decline to accepting crossovers and doing 'little' dives while the sub class of techies look outside BSAC. This I see happening almost regardless of what BSAC training put in at the top as tech courses because they are, more often than not, school courses not branch courses and so are just one option for a tech training. I'm not sure how to stop it other than making more advanced training (DL/AD/FCD/AI) far more accessible so we suck people up to the higher grades while they are still relatively new divers and still into the training thing.
In BSAC fantasy land the DO is a benevolent father figure to a branch, embodying people skills, diving skills, second sight and the patience of Job. In reality they are normally somebody with a pressure job who has taken on a club task more as a duty than a pleasure. It has to be done or the club withers away but the poor soul can't see anybody else doing it and the other possible candidates have already done their turn.
Nothing really there to disagree with.
Mike Halligan
01-10-2008, 12:05
A year or so ago I wrote on the forum that I saw a trend in clubs to shut off training at Sports Diver and this shows now as branches do not have enough advanced divers to cover the more onerous jobs like DO.
I do worry that if we don't reverse this drift we will become a club of 'same again' local dives and 'all done for us' foreign trips, attractive to new divers who appreciate our well oiled 'go diving' machine but slowly we will decline to accepting crossovers and doing 'little' dives while the sub class of techies look outside BSAC. This I see happening almost regardless of what BSAC training put in at the top as tech courses because they are, more often than not, school courses not branch courses and so are just one option for a tech training. I'm not sure how to stop it other than making more advanced training (DL/AD/FCD/AI) far more accessible so we suck people up to the higher grades while they are still relatively new divers and still into the training thing.
In BSAC fantasy land the DO is a benevolent father figure to a branch, embodying people skills, diving skills, second sight and the patience of Job. In reality they are normally somebody with a pressure job who has taken on a club task more as a duty than a pleasure. It has to be done or the club withers away but the poor soul can't see anybody else doing it and the other possible candidates have already done their turn.
Agreed then, still agree now. :o
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