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if someone does the old aci course and fails the ci exam on a number of occaisions how long can they go on being a aci because things change, also what can they do
if someone does the old aci course and fails the ci exam on a number of occaisions how long can they go on being a aci because things change, also what can they do
Keep taking the exam, get some prep from either your branch or contact your Regional Coach or anyone that is an ITS instructor, get them to watch and help and advise
You will always be able to teach under the direct supervision of a NQI, but not sign books, they would do that
Don't give up
JP
:=if someone does the old aci course and fails the ci exam on a number of occaisions how long can they go on being a aci because things change, also what can they do
Keep taking the exam, get some prep from either your branch or contact your Regional Coach or anyone that is an ITS instructor, get them to watch and help and advise
You will always be able to teach under the direct supervision of a NQI, but not sign books, they would do that
Don't give up
JP
its not me but we have a member who passed his aci about eight years ago and has failed the ci and the new scheme on a number of occasions but he still instructs without direct supervision and this causes me concearn i was wondering if there was a cut off point whereby the qualification needs re sitting
David Walker
12-04-2004, 19:15
its not me but we have a member who passed his aci about eight years ago and has failed the ci and the new scheme on a number of occasions but he still instructs without direct supervision and this causes me concearn i was wondering if there was a cut off point whereby the qualification needs re sitting
Theres nothing documented about cut-offs i've ever seen. As long as you've done the IFC (or old ITC) and you're Dive Leader or above you don't need direct supervision in water to teach. If you're not happy with your member teaching then talk to your DO about it - its his/her ultimate decision who teaches in your club, and if they aren't up to standard then don't allow them to teach.
Of course, ideally you'll find out exactly why they keep failing their exams and try to help them to improve so that they are up to standard.
David
Theres nothing documented about cut-offs i've ever seen. As long as you've done the IFC (or old ITC) and you're Dive Leader or above you don't need direct supervision in water to teach. If you're not happy with your member teaching then talk to your DO about it - its his/her ultimate decision who teaches in your club, and if they aren't up to standard then don't allow them to teach.
Of course, ideally you'll find out exactly why they keep failing their exams and try to help them to improve so that they are up to standard.
David
I accept what you say and you are right about the issues surrounding his ability to teach, things change and if someone did a course some eight years ago and they are teaching the same methods that they were taught, surley this can not be right in the intertests of safty there must come a time when this diver should reattend the IFC what was then the ITC. The problem in relation to the DO is that he may be the DO. He is a very capable diver and I would never question his ability to dive but what I would question is the best practice which leads on to the duty of care that we all have not just the DO.
Garry
I accept what you say and you are right about the issues surrounding his ability to teach, things change and if someone did a course some eight years ago and they are teaching the same methods that they were taught, surley this can not be right in the intertests of safty there must come a time when this diver should reattend the IFC what was then the ITC. The problem in relation to the DO is that he may be the DO. He is a very capable diver and I would never question his ability to dive but what I would question is the best practice which leads on to the duty of care that we all have not just the DO.
Garry
Great divers, don't neccesarily make great Instructors and
visa-versa. Problem here may be the insular nature of club
training. Without at least some contact at training levels with
other clubs/courses, bad habits just get worse.
I can remember a few years back retraining a group who were
meant to be A1 accordinging to there Instructor. He was (not
surprisingly) the only NQI in the club and his practices had
been embedded in club training policy. Result everybody was
extremely weak on main skills.
Maybe you should have a word with your area/regional coach.
Voice your concerns and suggest a friendly visit during a pool
training session. At least then you might have an objective
(and authoritive) aprasal of what's going on.
TerryH
he should not be teaching unsupervised at all, he can't sign a log book..................the ACI is not an assessed qualification just proof of attendance
your branch should sort this out, if not you regional coach
jp
:=:=if someone does the old aci course and fails the ci exam on a number of occaisions how long can they go on being a aci because things change, also what can they do
:=
:=Keep taking the exam, get some prep from either your branch or contact your Regional Coach or anyone that is an ITS instructor, get them to watch and help and advise
:=
:=You will always be able to teach under the direct supervision of a NQI, but not sign books, they would do that
:=
:=Don't give up
:=JP
its not me but we have a member who passed his aci about eight years ago and has failed the ci and the new scheme on a number of occasions but he still instructs without direct supervision and this causes me concearn i was wondering if there was a cut off point whereby the qualification needs re sitting
he should not be teaching unsupervised at all, he can't sign a log book..................the ACI is not an assessed qualification just proof of attendance
your branch should sort this out, if not you regional coach
jp
:=:=if someone does the old aci course and fails the ci exam on a number of occaisions how long can they go on being a aci because things change, also what can they do
:=
:=Keep taking the exam, get some prep from either your branch or contact your Regional Coach or anyone that is an ITS instructor, get them to watch and help and advise
:=
:=You will always be able to teach under the direct supervision of a NQI, but not sign books, they would do that
:=
:=Don't give up
:=JP
its not me but we have a member who passed his aci about eight years ago and has failed the ci and the new scheme on a number of occasions but he still instructs without direct supervision and this causes me concearn i was wondering if there was a cut off point whereby the qualification needs re sitting
David Walker
14-04-2004, 20:57
Not sure if its different with the old club instructor stuff, but under the new scheme a Dive Leader who has done an IFC can teach in open water without direct (ie in-water) supervision.Obviously they can't sign the QRBs or anything, but can do the lessons.
It does sort of make sense though if you think about it - even though they haven't been assessed as competent instructors, they are competent to lead unqualified divers, and so safety isn't a problem (otherwise they wouldn't be DL). Because of the 'on-site' supervision (ie an instructor is around) they can get help and advice if necessary, and the instructor needs to be happy that they are capable of teaching and that the students know everything they need to do before signing them off. The only 'risk' is that they may not teach effectively, and if the 'full' instructor sees the skills aren't up to scratch on the final dive (which in our club an OWI always does, whoever did the rest of the lessons) then the student gets more practice and teaching before being signed off.
Obviously in an ideal world everyone would be taught by an OWI all the time, but this world isn't ideal.
It all comes down to DO responsibility - they can decide whether the DL+IFC is competent to be taking lessons. If they can, it is very useful to a club, particularly eg University clubs who may be short of full instructors and who do lots of training. Personally I've found being at Uni and having no car makes it extremely difficult getting to instructor training events, although club diving with University minibuses happens almost every weekend. When i'm on holiday and at home where I actually have a car, the courses happen to be at the opposite end of the country, or its the summer and there aren't any ITS events (or very few anyway).
David
he should not be teaching unsupervised at all, he can't sign a log book..................the ACI is not an assessed qualification just proof of attendance
your branch should sort this out, if not you regional coach
jp
:=its not me but we have a member who passed his aci about eight years ago and has failed the ci and the new scheme on a number of occasions but he still instructs without direct supervision and this causes me concearn i was wondering if there was a cut off point whereby the qualification needs re sitting
they can lead a dive, they can act as safety cover, they can't teach without supervision, if i am wrong show me where it tells us that
jp
Not sure if its different with the old club instructor stuff, but under the new scheme a Dive Leader who has done an IFC can teach in open water without direct (ie in-water) supervision.Obviously they can't sign the QRBs or anything, but can do the lessons.
It does sort of make sense though if you think about it - even though they haven't been assessed as competent instructors, they are competent to lead unqualified divers, and so safety isn't a problem (otherwise they wouldn't be DL). Because of the 'on-site' supervision (ie an instructor is around) they can get help and advice if necessary, and the instructor needs to be happy that they are capable of teaching and that the students know everything they need to do before signing them off. The only 'risk' is that they may not teach effectively, and if the 'full' instructor sees the skills aren't up to scratch on the final dive (which in our club an OWI always does, whoever did the rest of the lessons) then the student gets more practice and teaching before being signed off.
Obviously in an ideal world everyone would be taught by an OWI all the time, but this world isn't ideal.
It all comes down to DO responsibility - they can decide whether the DL+IFC is competent to be taking lessons. If they can, it is very useful to a club, particularly eg University clubs who may be short of full instructors and who do lots of training. Personally I've found being at Uni and having no car makes it extremely difficult getting to instructor training events, although club diving with University minibuses happens almost every weekend. When i'm on holiday and at home where I actually have a car, the courses happen to be at the opposite end of the country, or its the summer and there aren't any ITS events (or very few anyway).
David
:=he should not be teaching unsupervised at all, he can't sign a log book..................the ACI is not an assessed qualification just proof of attendance
:=your branch should sort this out, if not you regional coach
:=jp
:=:=its not me but we have a member who passed his aci about eight years ago and has failed the ci and the new scheme on a number of occasions but he still instructs without direct supervision and this causes me concearn i was wondering if there was a cut off point whereby the qualification needs re sitting
Not sure if its different with the old club instructor stuff, but under the new scheme a Dive Leader who has done an IFC can teach in open water without direct (ie in-water) supervision.Obviously they can't sign the QRBs or anything, but can do the lessons.
From <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/owiacomp.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/owiacomp.htm</a> , an Assisant Club Instructor can teach theory and pool lessons under supervision. An Assistant Instructor can teach Theory and Practical Lessons under supervision of an NQI. I think that allowing the training to be performed without direct supervision is risible. The person has been assessed for his diving abilities not for his teaching abilities. The allowance is there to allow a person to gain experience with supervision and also so that the supervisor can deal with mistakes. With someone who has repeatedly failed the exam, this to me, seems even more important. The person has been assessed and found to be lacking.
If the person has trained a diver without direct supervision, how can the person being asked to sign it off do so given that he has not seen the trainees skills?
Dave
This is exactly what causes me great concearn I do not doubt the ability to dive but to teach is another skill. I am aware that a CI can not supervise ACI in open water which then leaves a double whammy. There are training needs for both the ACI and his mate the CI who is alos present but not supervising despite what is written inthe BOH
iainmsmith
15-04-2004, 09:45
they can lead a dive, they can act as safety cover, they can't teach without supervision, if i am wrong show me where it tells us that
They need "on-site" supervision, not "in-water" supervision.
As per:
"ADI/Dive Leader:
Classroom, sheltered water, open water - on site supervision"
- <a href="http://www.bsac.org/technical/dtp/lsocean.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/technical/dtp/lsocean.htm</a>
"ADI/Dive Leader:
Classroom, sheltered water, open water - on site supervision"
- <a href="http://www.bsac.org/technical/dtp/lssports.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/technical/dtp/lssports.htm</a>
...and the instructor manual.
Iain
This is exactly what causes me great concearn I do not doubt the ability to dive but to teach is another skill.
I am not going to disagree with that. But what about the point David Walker made;
"Obviously in an ideal world everyone would be taught by an OWI all the time, but this world isn't ideal."
You could rephrase that;
In an ideal World superb skills would be taught by superb teachers.
But the World is not perfect! So which would you say is the better alternative within a club diving environment?
1. Superb skills taught poorly
2. Poor skills taught superbly
I have absolutely no hesitation in preferring the former case.
If there is a problem with;
+ Safety
+ The results your DO achieves
+ The validity of the qualifications he signs
+ The status of his insurance
Discuss it with other instructors in the branch and raise it with the committee. If none of these issues exist then are you engaging in anything more than a ticket waiving exercise?
ATEOTD this is a practical sport and 'What is taught' is far more important than 'How it is taught' (IMVHO).
Regards
Matt
Sorry matts
but what you say is pretty poor why make do with what you have we should continue to try and provide the highest standards we can because we are teaching scuba diving not draughts, if the board falls onto your toe it may hurt but compared with what could go wrong especailly with poor skills. There is no excuse for poor skills. The point I am trying to make is if somone wants to be an instructor then they should continue up the ladder an ACI is an assitant not an instructor its always alright until somthing goes wrong.
Guys, listen up, an ACI can teach what, without supervision nothing, what can they do without supervision is to accompany a trainee either on a pleasure dive ( remember them!! ) or as safety cover for a trainee to practice a skill that has already been taught either by a Qualified instructor or a ACI being supervised by a qualified instructor
Thats it no more no less
JP
Sorry matts
but what you say is pretty poor why make do with what you have we should continue to try and provide the highest standards we can because we are teaching scuba diving not draughts, if the board falls onto your toe it may hurt but compared with what could go wrong especailly with poor skills. There is no excuse for poor skills. The point I am trying to make is if somone wants to be an instructor then they should continue up the ladder an ACI is an assitant not an instructor its always alright until somthing goes wrong.
john kendall
15-04-2004, 12:02
Guys, listen up, an ACI can teach what, without supervision nothing, what can they do without supervision is to accompany a trainee either on a pleasure dive ( remember them!! ) or as safety cover for a trainee to practice a skill that has already been taught either by a Qualified instructor or a ACI being supervised by a qualified instructor
Thats it no more no less
A DL/ADI can teach with On-Site Supervision, this means an OWI at the same site, but not necessarily in the water with them.
Than OWI can then sign off the lesson if they are happy.
John
:=Guys, listen up, an ACI can teach what, without supervision nothing, what can they do without supervision is to accompany a trainee either on a pleasure dive ( remember them!! ) or as safety cover for a trainee to practice a skill that has already been taught either by a Qualified instructor or a ACI being supervised by a qualified instructor
:=
:=Thats it no more no less
A DL/ADI can teach with On-Site Supervision, this means an OWI at the same site, but not necessarily in the water with them.
Than OWI can then sign off the lesson if they are happy.
And herein lies the crux of the matter
But how can the OWI be happy with the quality of the instruction given if he hasn't seen it?
Allowing an ACI to teach under supervision seems perfectly fine to me, however my view on supervision is that it is supervised in a manner where the person supervising knows what has happened. An OWI sitting on the shore is, imo, in no position to know what happened in the water.
if the ADI has failed the exam , surely it is even more important to ensure that the person be properly supervised to (a) ensure that the trainee has been properly trained and , just as importantly (b) to be able to give feedback to the ADI over where improvements can be made in order to assist his passing next time
Dave
Sorry matts
but what you say is pretty poor why make do with what you have we should continue to try and provide the highest standards we can
The two positions are not mutually exclusive. I agree we should continue to strive for the highest standards of diving skills AND teaching skills. BUT You need to be moving to progress. We must work with what is in front of us, otherwise we sit forever waiting for the World to become perfect around us.
We are left to debate what is 'acceptable' and what is the priority.
because we are teaching scuba diving not draughts, if the board falls onto your toe it may hurt but compared with what could go wrong especailly with poor skills. There is no excuse for poor skills.
I absolutely agree. But the fact is that the Instructor courses and exams place teaching skills before diving skills. Some people with very good diving skills, are never judged to have teaching skills worthy of the name NQI. Similarly there are some very good and highly qualified teachers who's diving skills are somewhat questionable.
As you say we are teaching scuba diving. As I say, how we go about teaching it must be; safe, valid and insured. I don't consider any of those points to be negotiable.
Quality of teaching and the end result of such, is a huge grey area though. Now the point I am making is, that what actually counts is the quality of skills the diver possesses when they emerge from this grey area. You can be the best teacher in the World but if your ex-trainees inflict continual problems on their buddies, it don't mean a damn.
The point I am trying to make is if somone wants to be an instructor then they should continue up the ladder an ACI is an assitant not an instructor
You may be assuming too much. Many of the best instructors don't particularly want to be instructors. Similarly some of the keenest instructors would do better to focus a bit more on what they are actually teaching and get into open water with their peers a bit more often. As far as I am concerned, the most problematic instructors are those that seem to think that they are somhow above 'mere' divers simply because they can waive a ticket qualifying them to teach.
I guess what makes me uneasy about your position is that you acknowledge your DO has good skills, but you want to deny your trainee divers access to that skills set. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If your DO is teaching safely and within the supervisory requirements laid down by BSAC, there would appear little reason to seek a ban. If you do in fact get your ban, it is highly likely your going to completely alienate your DO. This guy has been teaching 8 years and is your DO. Look around your branch and see how many people are prepared to help out for that ammount of time? What you are suggesting sounds like a very destructive course of action to me.
Rather than looking for ways to prevent this guy doing what you don't like, why not apply that energy to finding a way to bring him into the fold. The challenge in front of you is to persuade your DO that he can in fact take the exam, pass it and be an even more useful branch member. You motivate and encourage by telling people what they can do, not by telling them what they can't do.
its always alright until somthing goes wrong.
Absolutely. When a diver has their masked kicked off for the first time; they need to recover it and clear it, quickly without fuss. The details of how they went about learning to do so (as long as it was safe etc), are less important than being able to do it.
Possibly not what you wanted to hear.
YMMV
Regards
Matt
john kendall
15-04-2004, 16:00
:=:=Guys, listen up, an ACI can teach what, without supervision nothing, what can they do without supervision is to accompany a trainee either on a pleasure dive ( remember them!! ) or as safety cover for a trainee to practice a skill that has already been taught either by a Qualified instructor or a ACI being supervised by a qualified instructor
:=:=
:=:=Thats it no more no less
:=
:=A DL/ADI can teach with On-Site Supervision, this means an OWI at the same site, but not necessarily in the water with them.
:=
:=Than OWI can then sign off the lesson if they are happy.
And herein lies the crux of the matter
But how can the OWI be happy with the quality of the instruction given if he hasn't seen it?
Allowing an ACI to teach under supervision seems perfectly fine to me, however my view on supervision is that it is supervised in a manner where the person supervising knows what has happened. An OWI sitting on the shore is, imo, in no position to know what happened in the water.
Well that depends on the OWI and the history between them and the ADI.
There are 2 or 3 ADIs in my club who I will let teach in openwater without direct in-water supervision. Why? Because I have directly supervised them teaching in the pool and in open-water, and am happy about the quality of their skills and teaching. Yes I am currently pushing them towards the various instructor exams, and I doubt that they will have much issue in passing them, once they take them.
if the ADI has failed the exam , surely it is even more important to ensure that the person be properly supervised to (a) ensure that the trainee has been properly trained and , just as importantly (b) to be able to give feedback to the ADI over where improvements can be made in order to assist his passing next time
This I have no arguments against. If I had someone in my branch keep failing the instructor exams, I'd want to know why, and try and help them pass next time.
John
last point first it is what I want to hear and you make a very good case, I do not want to alienate the DO that is the reason i deceided to see what other clubs are doing I do want to see his skills put to full use I am taking over from him next week so its my problem and I will make sure that all ACI have in water supervision until I am happy otherwise. I suppose what I want is safe way to use him and I feel that because he is a all round good guy is not really enough when its my problem to regulate the standards. it is refreshing to have dialoge and not rants
Hi John
Well you certainly take it to the edge mate, some would say you are just being a real person, and a nice one, but the real position is that whilst underwater and whilst you are ashore they are not being supervised.... but the liability is yours and I hate to think what would the insurance company's thoughts would be if either there was an incident while a trainee was being taught a skill by an unsupervised ACI or indeed signed off for a skill that later caused them or her an injury because they could not carry out that skill and it had been signed off by an NQI that was not present during the training session
Safe Diving Practices??
JP
:=:=:=Guys, listen up, an ACI can teach what, without supervision nothing, what can they do without supervision is to accompany a trainee either on a pleasure dive ( remember them!! ) or as safety cover for a trainee to practice a skill that has already been taught either by a Qualified instructor or a ACI being supervised by a qualified instructor
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Thats it no more no less
:=:=
:=:=A DL/ADI can teach with On-Site Supervision, this means an OWI at the same site, but not necessarily in the water with
them.
:=:=
:=:=Than OWI can then sign off the lesson if they are happy.
:=
:=
:=And herein lies the crux of the matter
:=
:=But how can the OWI be happy with the quality of the instruction given if he hasn't seen it?
:=
:=Allowing an ACI to teach under supervision seems perfectly fine to me, however my view on supervision is that it is supervised in a manner where the person supervising knows what has happened. An OWI sitting on the shore is, imo, in no position to know what happened in the water.
Well that depends on the OWI and the history between them and the ADI.
There are 2 or 3 ADIs in my club who I will let teach in openwater without direct in-water supervision. Why? Because I have directly supervised them teaching in the pool and in open-water, and am happy about the quality of their skills and teaching. Yes I am currently pushing them towards the various instructor exams, and I doubt that they will have much issue in passing them, once they take them.
:=if the ADI has failed the exam , surely it is even more important to ensure that the person be properly supervised to (a) ensure that the trainee has been properly trained and , just as importantly (b) to be able to give feedback to the ADI over where improvements can be made in order to assist his passing next time
This I have no arguments against. If I had someone in my branch keep failing the instructor exams, I'd want to know why, and try and help them pass next time.
John
Hi John
Well you certainly take it to the edge mate, some would say you are just being a real person, and a nice one, but the real position is that whilst underwater and whilst you are ashore they are not being supervised.... but the liability is yours and I hate to think what would the insurance company's thoughts would be if either there was an incident while a trainee was being taught a skill by an unsupervised ACI or indeed signed off for a skill that later caused them or her an injury because they could not carry out that skill and it had been signed off by an NQI that was not present during the training session
Safe Diving Practices??
JP
:=:=:=Guys, listen up, an ACI can teach what, without supervision nothing, what can they do without supervision is to accompany a trainee either on a pleasure dive ( remember them!! ) or as safety cover for a trainee to practice a skill that has already been taught either by a Qualified instructor or a ACI being supervised by a qualified instructor
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Thats it no more no less
:=:=
:=:=A DL/ADI can teach with On-Site Supervision, this means an OWI at the same site, but not necessarily in the water with
them.
:=:=
:=:=Than OWI can then sign off the lesson if they are happy.
:=
:=
:=And herein lies the crux of the matter
:=
:=But how can the OWI be happy with the quality of the instruction given if he hasn't seen it?
:=
:=Allowing an ACI to teach under supervision seems perfectly fine to me, however my view on supervision is that it is supervised in a manner where the person supervising knows what has happened. An OWI sitting on the shore is, imo, in no position to know what happened in the water.
Well that depends on the OWI and the history between them and the ADI.
There are 2 or 3 ADIs in my club who I will let teach in openwater without direct in-water supervision. Why? Because I have directly supervised them teaching in the pool and in open-water, and am happy about the quality of their skills and teaching. Yes I am currently pushing them towards the various instructor exams, and I doubt that they will have much issue in passing them, once they take them.
:=if the ADI has failed the exam , surely it is even more important to ensure that the person be properly supervised to (a) ensure that the trainee has been properly trained and , just as importantly (b) to be able to give feedback to the ADI over where improvements can be made in order to assist his passing next time
This I have no arguments against. If I had someone in my branch keep failing the instructor exams, I'd want to know why, and try and help them pass next time.
John
Hi
Firstly well done, being DO is a very rewarding position to hold be proud and strong, and like you have on this forum never be frightoned to ask
Regarding your ACI, sounds like he needs some refresher training and depending wherte you are in the country, you should contact your Regional Coach for some help, if the guy is keen to teach and he must be he will welcome this approach
By letting him teach you would not be helping, just embedding some "bad" habits
JP
last point first it is what I want to hear and you make a very good case, I do not want to alienate the DO that is the reason i deceided to see what other clubs are doing I do want to see his skills put to full use I am taking over from him next week so its my problem and I will make sure that all ACI have in water supervision until I am happy otherwise. I suppose what I want is safe way to use him and I feel that because he is a all round good guy is not really enough when its my problem to regulate the standards. it is refreshing to have dialoge and not rants
john kendall
15-04-2004, 16:48
Hi John
Well you certainly take it to the edge mate, some would say you are just being a real person, and a nice one, but the real position is that whilst underwater and whilst you are ashore they are not being supervised.... but the liability is yours and I hate to think what would the insurance company's thoughts would be if either there was an incident while a trainee was being taught a skill by an unsupervised ACI or indeed signed off for a skill that later caused them or her an injury because they could not carry out that skill and it had been signed off by an NQI that was not present during the training session
To be honest the liability is mine as DO for ALL the instructing that goes on in my branch. I am working within BSAC's guidelines as to supervision levels required for a DL/ADI, and so my insurance should be OK (Note I use "Should" since anything to do with insurance is grey). As DO I regularly watch and accompany any of my instructors when they are teaching, in order to satisfy myself that everything is taught well. Also our students rotate around the instructors so that no one persons bad habbits can be embedded too much.
Safe Diving Practices??
I am within them.
John
But how can the OWI be happy with the quality of the instruction given if he hasn't seen it?
How can a PIE assessor be happy with your ability to teach complete newbies a multi day course, when they only see a 30 minutes lesson delivered to Dive Leaders?
The OWI does the same as an instructor examiner, they take what they see and fill in the gaps to make a judgement call on the quality. The OWI actually has it far easier, with the luxury of seeing the real results that the ACI achieves and being able to make their assessment over a longer period, with input from other instructors in the branch.
Allowing an ACI to teach under supervision seems perfectly fine to me, however my view on supervision is that it is supervised in a manner where the person supervising knows what has happened. An OWI sitting on the shore is, imo, in no position to know what happened in the water.
You do know you are describing is exactly what the majority of people find most difficult about delegation? Personally I do not have a problem with the idea that some ACIs can in fact teach, are possibly better at it than me, but a BSAC examiner has yet to realise it. Given the limitations the BSAC examiner has to work within, it is not surprising.
if the ADI has failed the exam , surely it is even more important to ensure that the person be properly supervised to (a) ensure that the trainee has been properly trained
The candidate not being good enough is only one reason to fail an exam. Examiners and candidates can both have bad days. As an OWI in the same branch you are in a good position to assess whether the examiner got it right or not. BSAC allow you and every other OWI the opportunity to make the judgement possibly to acknowlege the imperfections within the examining process.
and , just as importantly (b) to be able to give feedback to the ADI over where improvements can be made in order to assist his passing next time
There will be a report sheet detailing why the candidate failed. That is probably the best place to start looking for the problem areas.
Just a couple questions of my own;
1. When exactly did we get this surplus of instructors that means we have to cull the teaching pool still further?
2. Where do I find all the training incident reports which 'must' have resulted from all these ACIs teaching badly and dangerously?
Regards
Matt
Mike Halligan
15-04-2004, 18:14
Garry,
You're about to be the man on the spot, as you take on the mantle of DO. At that point you would be entirely correct, IMVHO duty-bound, to revise the safety and training aspects of Branch activity you are to look after.
Both BOH and DTP are updated since your predecessor attended his ITC, so there is the possibility that his view might not be entirely current. As the responsible officer, you must satisfy yourself that things are being done to your satisfaction according to the guidance available to you. (i.e. presumption, negligent consideration and the opinion of others do not score here, you must inform and satisfy yourself)
You may find you've a long way to go before you are satisfied, and the issues you raise here will be a part of that. I suggest you de-personalise this by looking into everything done (and everyone doing it) within your jurisdiction. That way, no-one can sustain arguments of vicitimisation (won't stop them raising them). Then set out your stall before the Committee, stating what you wish to see improved, why, by when, and by what means.
If you decide to encourage and assist the ACI/ADI/CI strength of the Branch toward TI/PI/OWI, where is the harm in that? Much is in the presentation and the consideration shown to those who have put themselves out for the good of others. However, the safety of the trainee has to be always, absolutely and transparently paramount.
Hope this helps,
Mike
To be honest the liability is mine as DO for ALL the instructing that goes on in my branch. I am working within BSAC's guidelines as to supervision levels required for a DL/ADI, and so my insurance should be OK (Note I use "Should" since anything to do with insurance is grey). As DO I regularly watch and accompany any of my instructors when they are teaching, in order to satisfy myself that everything is taught well. Also our students rotate around the instructors so that no one persons bad habbits can be embedded too much.
Got to agree with John here. The ACI/ADI grade should be looked
at in tandem with both diver grade and associated skills. After
all are we really saying that a 1st class/ADI is going to be a
muppet compared with a newly qualified Sports/ADI?????
Bottom line is that you (the DO) have to be objective and
decide who can and can't teach on each individuals own merits.
That is after all what is meant by supervison.
TerryH
last point first it is what I want to hear and you make a very good case, I do not want to alienate the DO that is the reason i deceided to see what other clubs are doing I do want to see his skills put to full use I am taking over from him next week so its my problem and I will make sure that all ACI have in water supervision until I am happy otherwise. I suppose what I want is safe way to use him and I feel that because he is a all round good guy is not really enough when its my problem to regulate the standards. it is refreshing to have dialoge and not rants
Might not be a bad idea to contact your coach and ask him to be
the bad cop. You can then play the good cop and get some action
by lumping the blame on him.
Less chance then of alienating anyone.
TerryH
David Walker
16-04-2004, 03:38
From my view though there shouldn't be any problems to do with safety of the dive. As I said before, the ACI in open water MUST be at least a DL, who according to the BSAC standards can lead an unqualified diver unsupervised. If they happen to add mask clearing in during that dive, how does that suddenly make them incapable of looking after the person they're diving with? If you have an issue with the safety of those people when instructing, then that implies that you don't believe they are up to Dive Leader standard - which is a different matter entirely, and if you believe that then you should talk to them/your DO/you regional coach and find out how they got signed off as DL in the first place.
That just leaves the quality of the teaching in question. We always have an OWI do the last lesson so that they can clearly assess the trainee, and so spot if anything may have been taught badly, and that is corrected if necessary. Where an AI is instructing in open water (or the pool for that matter) they will have followed along and watched at least a couple of lessons given by an OWI (probably more), and been directly supervised on at least one lesson before they will be allowed to take students in on their own. That in itself is far more experience / observation than you'd ever get in the instructor exams.
And for those of us who have difficulty actually getting to instructor exams, in the clubs where training is generally far more common and long-term experienced members less common, the system works brilliantly! If AI's couldn't teach without direct supervision, then our club would more than half our training capacity, and I suspect many similar clubs would too. All comes down to the 'ideal world' again unfortunately!
David
Well you certainly take it to the edge mate, some would say you are just being a real person, and a nice one, but the real position is that whilst underwater and whilst you are ashore they are not being supervised.... but the liability is yours and I hate to think what would the insurance company's thoughts would be if either there was an incident while a trainee was being taught a skill by an unsupervised ACI or indeed signed off for a skill that later caused them or her an injury because they could not carry out that skill and it had been signed off by an NQI that was not present during the training session
Safe Diving Practices??
hope so mate, if you stay within SAP your liability is covered by our policy, remember being a DO does not give your the right to break the rules.
BesT
JP
:=Hi John
:=
:=Well you certainly take it to the edge mate, some would say you are just being a real person, and a nice one, but the real position is that whilst underwater and whilst you are ashore they are not being supervised.... but the liability is yours and I hate to think what would the insurance company's thoughts would be if either there was an incident while a trainee was being taught a skill by an unsupervised ACI or indeed signed off for a skill that later caused them or her an injury because they could not carry out that skill and it had been signed off by an NQI that was not present during the training session
To be honest the liability is mine as DO for ALL the instructing that goes on in my branch. I am working within BSAC's guidelines as to supervision levels required for a DL/ADI, and so my insurance should be OK (Note I use "Should" since anything to do with insurance is grey). As DO I regularly watch and accompany any of my instructors when they are teaching, in order to satisfy myself that everything is taught well. Also our students rotate around the instructors so that no one persons bad habbits can be embedded too much.
:=Safe Diving Practices??
I am within them.
John
hope so mate, if you stay within SAP your liability is covered by our policy, remember being a DO does not give your the right to break the rules.
BesT
JP
:=Hi John
:=
:=Well you certainly take it to the edge mate, some would say you are just being a real person, and a nice one, but the real position is that whilst underwater and whilst you are ashore they are not being supervised.... but the liability is yours and I hate to think what would the insurance company's thoughts would be if either there was an incident while a trainee was being taught a skill by an unsupervised ACI or indeed signed off for a skill that later caused them or her an injury because they could not carry out that skill and it had been signed off by an NQI that was not present during the training session
To be honest the liability is mine as DO for ALL the instructing that goes on in my branch. I am working within BSAC's guidelines as to supervision levels required for a DL/ADI, and so my insurance should be OK (Note I use "Should" since anything to do with insurance is grey). As DO I regularly watch and accompany any of my instructors when they are teaching, in order to satisfy myself that everything is taught well. Also our students rotate around the instructors so that no one persons bad habbits can be embedded too much.
:=Safe Diving Practices??
I am within them.
John
> remember being a DO does not give your the right to break the
> rules.
I suspect John knows that. He's been DO for a while now.
And what is more, he's not breaking any rules.
Vic.
And for those of us who have difficulty actually getting to instructor exams, in the clubs where training is generally far more common and long-term experienced members less common, the system works brilliantly!:=
Come on David the ADI system works well and fine if you want
to use ADI/DL for training, but please dont say that it's
difficult to get to exams.
There is NO excuse for not taking exams, just need motivation.
TerryH
john kendall
16-04-2004, 12:33
hope so mate, if you stay within SAP your liability is covered by our policy, remember being a DO does not give your the right to break the rules.
Which bit of Iain's Post ( <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2970.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2970.html</a>) didn't you understand? The supervision requirements are VERY clearly laid out by BSAC. Who said anything about breaking the rules?
John
last point first it is what I want to hear and you make a very good case, I do not want to alienate the DO that is the reason i deceided to see what other clubs are doing
OK I have spent the last 7 years on our branch committee, initially as assitant DO and for the last 2 as the slightly reluctant chairman. The branch has about 100 members and is pretty much 50 years old. I would possibly sufferred bodily injury long ago if I had not learnt how to tip toe around divers with vastly more experience than I have. I have also learnt that 'Assistant' can have a special meaning in dive clubs. Often the 'Assistant' is the guy that is not quite qualified but does all the hard work.
I do want to see his skills put to full use I am taking over from him next week so its my problem
As has been pointed out you don't actually have to change anything. If an NQI is on site and prepared to sign the QRB, your DO is allowed to instruct unsupervised.
However, what you might consider doing is discussing with your DO, whether his skills would not be better employed in Open Water. What happens to your trainees once they have qualified? It usually takes a couple of dives to smooth the edges and slicken up their performance. They need to be treated as buddies rather than trainees. An experienced diver with instructor experience would be an assett at this point.
and I will make sure that all ACI have in water supervision until I am happy otherwise.
What is the difference between an ADI/ACI and an NQI? A 30 minute exam perhaps! There is as much chance of an NQI having embedded bad habits as an ADI. There is as much chance of an NQI being out of date as an ADI. Superiority complexes though...NQIs are far more susceptible.
What I am getting at is why treat ADIs in a substantially different manner than your NQIs? ADIs and NQIs are, after all, part of the same teaching team. You don't build teams by allowing or imposing meaningless lines between the ranks. How would you feel if your collegues at work kept telling you how many more o'levels they happen to have?
I would not be inclined to change things the moment you take over. The chances are that your training process works, even if it is not perfect, or exactly how you wish it to be. If you immidiately prevent ACIs from teaching inwater unsupervised, you are telling them 2 things; you know how to do their job, you do not trust any of them.
Why not take the time to dive with each of your NQIs and ADIs (treat them the same) then get everyone around the table and discuss how the training process can be improved. That may mean having ACIs supervised inwater. Make a visible decision after visibly assessing the situation.
I suppose what I want is safe way to use him and I feel that because he is a all round good guy is not really enough when its my problem to regulate the standards.
Safety is a relative subject. Rather than trying to judge what is safe, you might do better to look for things that are definately unsafe.
What I would say is that it is not your job to regulate standards. You have NQIs, ACIs and experienced divers around you, ask their opinion. At the end of the day these are the people that will set the standards. The strength of clubs is that you are never alone, you just have to learn to ask for help. Safety cultures themselves are bred It takes the whole club to buy in and take responsibility for safety. The best way to make that happen is to encourage it rather than just trying to impose it.
it is refreshing to have dialoge and not rants
I hope I was not ranting ;-)
My problem is, that I have seen people learn to dive and qualify as NQI in a couple years. They tell us all EXACTLY what we have been doing wrong for so long...and then leave the sport. One or two of these people I simply will not dive with. Conversely we have a number of ACIs/ADIs that have been teaching perfectly well for years. The divers they turn out have consistantly good skills, which reflects the experience of their teachers. Ultimately the difference between ACI and NQI is a 30 minute exam. The difference between a good instructor and a bad instructor is far more complicated.
Good luck in your new position. Try to enjoy it and remember this is a hobby. What you manage to achieve will largely depend on other peoples perception of your actions. You can't please all the people all the time, but if most of the people are displeased most of the time, they may have a point. The best way to displease someone is to say 'NO' so try to avoid it.
Regards
Matt
With you all the way while the ACI/ADI's are gaining experience
or in the process of OWIC, TIE, PIE etc, but ........
Ultimately the difference between ACI and NQI is a 30 minute
exam.
Come on. If you have an ACI/ADI who is working as an instructor
(albeit under indirect supervision) then YOU (as DO) feel that
he is up to the standard of an assessed NQI.
If you have enough confidence to give him students, then why
not sit that 30 minute exam?
If the 30min exam is such a minor point then it should be a
doddle for these ACI's.
IMO if you (as DO) are prepared to give an ACI/ADI a student
unsupervised, then that individual is ready for the exam and
should be encouraged to take it at the earliest opportunity.
we have a number of ACIs/ADIs that have been teaching perfectly well for years.:=
So why not do the exam???????
TerryH
...in the clubs where training is generally far more common and long-term experienced members less common, the system works brilliantly!
It works just as well in clubs with long term, experienced members who spend more time diving than training. We are a coastal branch and the Sea is a bit of a distraction. We make sure that assessments are done by NQIs.
Regards
Matt
If AI's couldn't teach without direct supervision, then our club would more than half our training capacity, and I suspect many similar clubs would too. All comes down to the 'ideal world' again unfortunately!
David
David Walker
17-04-2004, 20:37
Come on David the ADI system works well and fine if you want
to use ADI/DL for training, but please dont say that it's
difficult to get to exams.
There is NO excuse for not taking exams, just need motivation.
Consider the following facts:
- I would need probably in excess of 50kg of equipment with me for an open water event, a lot of which is big and bulky.
- For open water events, it is impractical to use public transport.
- I don't own a car
- The car I have access to is a 3-4 hour train journey home, and to do so requires me to miss a day of university (3 lectures, 20% of my week!)
- I would then have to drive from Durham to Warwick to pick up my equipment (having just gone from Warwick to Durham by train) and then on to wherever the course is!
- Even for a theory event, they generally start early on a saturday or sunday morning, and getting a train anywhere at that time is just a non-starter (and yes, i've looked very recently trying to get to the TIE in London next weekend).
The extra costs in the train journeys and petrol are very significant compared to what it would cost most people to travel to an event.
I'm not complaining here, I don't believe that they can run events everywhere for everyone and wouldn't expect them to (although another in Leamington during University term times would be good :o) ), but without a car getting to events it nigh-on impossible, simple as that. Diving is fine, we run club trips or someone else from the club would want to go who has a car, which works fine and diving is never a problem. But theres no one else in the club at the same stage of the instructor training as me, and so going to courses together isn't an option for me either... and no one is going to give me a lift halfway across the country and sit around waiting for me either!
Just pointing out that everything is not always easy, and that is why I appreciate the current system so much.
David :O)
David J Smith
17-04-2004, 22:21
:=Come on David the ADI system works well and fine if you want
:=to use ADI/DL for training, but please dont say that it's
:=difficult to get to exams.
:=There is NO excuse for not taking exams, just need motivation.
Consider the following facts:
- I would need probably in excess of 50kg of equipment with me for an open water event, a lot of which is big and bulky.
- For open water events, it is impractical to use public transport.
- I don't own a car
- The car I have access to is a 3-4 hour train journey home, and to do so requires me to miss a day of university (3 lectures, 20% of my week!)
- I would then have to drive from Durham to Warwick to pick up my equipment (having just gone from Warwick to Durham by train) and then on to wherever the course is!
- Even for a theory event, they generally start early on a saturday or sunday morning, and getting a train anywhere at that time is just a non-starter (and yes, i've looked very recently trying to get to the TIE in London next weekend).
The extra costs in the train journeys and petrol are very significant compared to what it would cost most people to travel to an event.
I'm not complaining here,
Yes you are.
Consider the following facts:
- I would need probably in excess of 50kg of equipment with me for an open water event, a lot of which is big and bulky.
- For open water events, it is impractical to use public transport.
- I don't own a car
- The car I have access to is a 3-4 hour train journey home, and to do so requires me to miss a day of university (3 lectures, 20% of my week!)
For a saturday examination : There is a train on fridays departing Durham at 16:58 with 1 change a Leamington Spa to Warwick. It is perfectly feasible to take dive gear on a train, even if you spend a few ? to take a cab to the station; I travel with full gear ( including cylinders ) once or twice a month on travel by air; train's even easier. Starting from Warwick, there are Instructor Exams which take place within an easy drive of Warwick.
If the event is on a sunday, you don't even need to head down till the saturday anway
- I would then have to drive from Durham to Warwick to pick up my equipment (having just gone from Warwick to Durham by train) and then on to wherever the course is!
It is perfectly feasible to take the gear on the train to Warwick, especially if someone can meet you at Warwick station on arrival
Just pointing out that everything is not always easy, and that is why I appreciate the current system so much.
Ok, it's not on your doorstep, but hardly difficult. When I did my CIE , I had to take a train from Rugby to Birmingham and then change to a service to Holyhead. I then stayed the night in Holyhead and took the exam the next morning. The same applied when I went up there again to do the OWIC. It is possible to do these events using public transport of you want to do the even.
Dave
So you belong to a Uni club like us, then use the SU minibus!
We do!
or
As most UK OWIC/PIE etc. are held at Inland sites, combine
this with a buddy pair and take them diving.
Three in a car + kit. You do the exam, they have a splash.
or
Have a word with your regional coach and see if any ordinary
branches (I'm assuming you are a special branch) have anybody going on an OWIC/PIE. I'm sure they would share fuel costs.
or
Put a call out for anybody thinking of doing an exam on here
and see if they might swing by your place. Again share costs.
or
Contact your next door Uni branch, get a dialogue going between
DO's & TO's. Combine transport.
If you want to be an Instructor then dont complain make it
happen! It is easy, just need to be motivated.
Pity your not in our club. I would have taken you there myself
to gain another NQI.
TerryH
Philip Smith
18-04-2004, 11:18
or ...
or ...
or ...
or ...
or get on your bicycle [eeh, when ah wur a lad ... no, no -- stop that at once!]
:=or ...
:=or ...
:=or ...
:=or ...
or get on your bicycle [eeh, when ah wur a lad ... no, no -- stop that at once!]
For some unknown reason I suddenly have a craving for some Hovis. No seriously, I really do!
Tel.
David Walker
18-04-2004, 17:13
So you belong to a Uni club like us, then use the SU minibus!
We do!
They won't let me drive it - need to be 21! :O(
As most UK OWIC/PIE etc. are held at Inland sites, combine
this with a buddy pair and take them diving.
Three in a car + kit. You do the exam, they have a splash.
Its always possibly, the only problem being that the instructor courses are generally booked several weeks in advance so hard to guarantee someone will want to go. An option though, see if I can work something out.
Have a word with your regional coach and see if any ordinary
branches (I'm assuming you are a special branch) have anybody going on an OWIC/PIE. I'm sure they would share fuel costs.
Put a call out for anybody thinking of doing an exam on here
and see if they might swing by your place. Again share costs.
Both possibilities - seems a bit cheeky like :O\
If you want to be an Instructor then dont complain make it
happen! It is easy, just need to be motivated.
I'll get it done - I won't be able to get it done in the next few weeks so in effect that gives me until October before i'd realistically be teaching again anyway. I'dd do the next course as AOWI, and then do the exams later - if nothing else gives me more practice... September's a good month - lots of courses starting up again, and i'm not at Uni.
Pity your not in our club. I would have taken you there myself
to gain another NQI.
Hehe - just matching up people's free time thats the problem usually. Never mind.
Anyway, all this is completely off the original point anyway (that being able to teach before doing exams is a good idea), and i'm going to get it done eventually so everyone's happy! :O)
David
With you all the way while the ACI/ADI's are gaining experience
or in the process of OWIC, TIE, PIE etc, but ........
:=
:=Ultimately the difference between ACI and NQI is a 30 minute
exam.
Come on. If you have an ACI/ADI who is working as an instructor
(albeit under indirect supervision) then YOU (as DO) feel that
he is up to the standard of an assessed NQI.
Nobody in a branch can make make that decision, it is made by a BSAC instructor examiner, during a short assessment, in front of Dive Leaders. What we can do in the branch is recognise good instructors. Our assessment is made over a longer period, by a group of people, based on the instructors performance in front of actual trainees.
If you have enough confidence to give him students, then why
not sit that 30 minute exam?
I continually encourage people to do the exams. What I can't do is force people to take the exams, or change their performance once they are in front an examiner.
If the 30min exam is such a minor point then it should be a
doddle for these ACI's.
I never said the exams were a doddle. For some, the exams are far from a doddle. What I said was; the actual difference between an ACI/ADI and an NQI, is succesful completion of the exams. Assuming that ACIs are flawed only because they have not passed the exams is nonsense. Assuming that passing the exams makes a good diving instructor, is similarly nonsense. Instructors that can't accept these simple facts, are heading for a superiority complex which will negate them ever being good instructors (IMVHO).
IMO if you (as DO) are prepared to give an ACI/ADI a student
unsupervised, then that individual is ready for the exam and
should be encouraged to take it at the earliest opportunity.
Possibly.
I can think of a few individuals who probably would not pass the exams. For instance, we have an ACI who's un-compromising nature makes me certain they would fail a PIE. But that same 'fault' is a positive boon when it comes to DL and AD lessons. I did once suggest that maybe this person might lighten up...but this person is un-compromising ;-) I can also think of a couple NQIs I would not get in the water with.
:=we have a number of ACIs/ADIs that have been teaching perfectly well for years.:=
So why not do the exam???????
It is their decision, not mine. I am more than happy to motivate, encourage and arrange coaching, but life is too short to get involved in individual arguments.
I guess the time we have been established, has allowed us to accumulate more than our fair share of people that have issues with BSAC, or don't like examines etc. Whilst these ACIs continue to be popular with trainees and produce divers with good skills, I see no point in messing with a system that works. When you have trainees queing up waiting for particular ACIs in preferrence to being taught by an NQI, I suspect the most important assessment has been made.
Regards
Matt
:=Come on. If you have an ACI/ADI who is working as an
instructor (albeit under indirect supervision) then YOU (as DO)
feel that he is up to the standard of an assessed NQI.
Nobody in a branch can make make that decision, it is made by a BSAC instructor examiner, during a short assessment, in front of Dive Leaders. What we can do in the branch is recognise good instructors. Our assessment is made over a longer period, by a group of people, based on the instructors performance in front of actual trainees.:=
Sorry Matt don't get you, as an NQI you have assessed the
individual and deemed him safe/competent to teach unsupervised.
The benchmark for such an assessment (even if it's as seems in
your club a continual assessment) must be BSAC's own, the exam.
So logic says that if you are going to let him/her teach
unsupervised then you must be confident that he/she would
pass and that it is purely a time/availabity constraint rather
than a skill issue.
TerryH
Sorry Matt don't get you, as an NQI you have assessed the
individual and deemed him safe/competent to teach unsupervised.
I accept I am one person in the process yes.
The benchmark for such an assessment (even if it's as seems in
your club a continual assessment) must be BSAC's own, the exam.
There is no must about it. BSAC sanction our continual assessment by allowing NQIs to supervise in the vicinity. BSAC also sanction us preventing any NQI we are unhappy with from teaching. The DO may refuse to approve that instructor from diving within the branch. Not something we do lightly but yes, in 50 years we have told one qualified instructor where to get off.
So logic says that if you are going to let him/her teach
unsupervised then you must be confident that he/she would
pass and that it is purely a time/availabity constraint rather
than a skill issue.
That I feel is a leap of faith rather than logic. I do not believe that any one person can sufficiently judge what is and is not a safe and effective diving instructor solely on the outcome of a few short exams.
:=So logic says that if you are going to let him/her teach
:=unsupervised then you must be confident that he/she would
:=pass and that it is purely a time/availabity constraint rather
:=than a skill issue.
That I feel is a leap of faith rather than logic. I do not believe that any one person can sufficiently judge what is and is not a safe and effective diving instructor solely on the outcome of a few short exams.
Why?
Prior to the exam I need to be under supervison, technicly
after doing (and passing) that 20 minutes, I'm ok by myself.
That means that BSAC has at that very point decided that the
candidate is not a muppet and can be given students.
I know it's a very basic point and a basic exam for that
matter, but I was always under the impression that the exam was
more a measure of safety and control rather than the skillbase
itself.
If that's the case then it is a valid test and like BSAC must
be taken as a benchmark.
TerryH
:=last point first it is what I want to hear and you make a very good case, I do not want to alienate the DO that is the reason i deceided to see what other clubs are doing
OK I have spent the last 7 years on our branch committee, initially as assitant DO and for the last 2 as the slightly reluctant chairman.
yes so have I and the point is ? it is you that has created the mythical situation with the diving officer, I asked how can a ACI go without retaking the course you have give me your views which seemed more preoccupied with defending the position of the DO than anything else as DO I will make the decision after I have dived with him and seen for myself the standard of his instruction. The point i was making is that things change and i feel that you can not make assumptions based on past history. The exam is not a automatic ticket to being an expert and only a fool would think it is but what it is is a central gauge by what a basic standard can be seen to have been met. This diver needs to be coached because he will be a good instructor but as DO i do not think it is appropiate to allow ACI to take in trainees unsupervised be that on the bank or in the water.
Garry
> I asked how can a ACI go without retaking the course
I still can't see the problem with this. If he's instructing well - good for him. If he's not - sort him out. But basing this assessment purely on whether or not he passed an exam doesn't seem like a good idea; there are a variety of reasons for failing exams despite being perfectly competent in the subject matter.
> The point i was making is that things change
This is the bit of what you've said that I can't get to grips with.
Why, exactly, should holding a *qualification* mean that someone stays up-to-date, whereas not holding that quali means they don't respond to change?
I really do think that bit's spurious.
> as DO i do not think it is appropiate to allow ACI to take in
> trainees unsupervised be that on the bank or in the water.
An ACI is *not* allowed to take in trainees unsupervised. He *must* be supervised by an NQI. them's the rules, and they're well stated. But be aware that "supervised" means "having an NQI on-site"; if you add any further restrictions to that statement then those are *your* restrictions, not BSAC's. ATEOTD, it's your branch that will lose out from that.
Vic.
Why?
For a start...The ITS does not claim to assess diving skills. Remedial teaching skills are also not a big feature.
Prior to the exam I need to be under supervison, technicly
after doing (and passing) that 20 minutes, I'm ok by myself.
No you can't. BSAC do not allow instructors to teach indipendantly, they must be attached to a branch or school. The level of supervision is relaxed as qualification increases but it never dissapears. All BSAC instructors are always supervised.
That means that BSAC has at that very point decided that the
candidate is not a muppet and can be given students.
Disagree. BSAC have decided that the candidate has taught one skill safely, progressively, effectively and behaved themselves during two or three demos. The branch/school oversite process is responsible for muppet prevention, not the ITS particularly.
I know it's a very basic point and a basic exam for that
matter, but I was always under the impression that the exam was
more a measure of safety and control rather than the skillbase
itself.
Somone has to take responsibility for the skill base.
If that's the case then it is a valid test and like BSAC must
be taken as a benchmark.
I did not say it was an invalid test. It is a benchmark, an indicator. The limitation with benchmarks is that they focus on details, they do not reflect the complete picture.
Regards
Matt
I did not say it was an invalid test. It is a benchmark, an indicator. The limitation with benchmarks is that they focus on details, they do not reflect the complete picture.
But that's the whole point.
Nobody is saying that passing the exam makes a good or even
competent Instructor, but it is as you say an indicator of a
minimum required standard.
As such, no matter what continual assessment or vetting you do
at club level, you must be reasonably confident that an
unsupervised ADI would (if he took it) pass the exam.
As a TO I am the one who allocates Instructors and will only
use unsupervised ADI's who I am confident would pass the
exam. Yes there whole attitude skillbase is part of that assessment, but the benchmark for me is the exam.
The others are used as supervised assistants only.
Quiet honestly I would prefer (and we are working towards)
Only NQI's teaching and ACI's assisting. That is after all the
stated aim of BSAC.
TerryH
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