O2 Admin - SDC vs DL Module [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

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iainmsmith

23-03-2004, 10:49

janet gough

23-03-2004, 12:49

Please forgive me if the answers to these questions are in the Instructor Manual - I haven't got it to hand and can't find the answers on-line

1) O2 Admin Student Materials

Are these included within the standard DL pack or do they always have to be bought as a seperate module? If the former, how does one deal with the situation where Ocean Divers or Sports Divers do the course and (presumably) have to buy the course materials and then go on to DL at some later stage. Do they have to buy the materials twice?

when new member purchaces the ocean diver pack the O2 student notes are with enclosed so enabling the O2 course to be taken
when doing the O2 course as a dive leader it is part of the theory lessons ie lessons DL 5-8 (i think)
in our branch we leave these theory and practical lesson out and students are then put on an O2 full blown course run in house therefore doing theory and practical exam and getting a cert sticker for the log book

2) Assessment

As far as I can tell, assessment of O2 Admin happens during the DL theory test only, the practical assessment having been removed completely (?). When the O2 Admin Module is taught ("at any stage after completing Ocean Diver"), how is it assessed? At what stage is the student considered qualified to give O2?

if done b4 dive leader stage they would do a full blown course and be assessed as per O2 course dictates

if done at DL stage see above run O2 course

If the course is being run as part of the DL course, is the theory assessed at any stage prior to the DL exam (presumably still done at the end of the course?). If not, can they be qualified as oxygen administrators prior to the end of the course?

if you run it as part of the course then students would be assessed in the DL exam and in the practical rescue assessment a student would only be an O2 administrator after completing both parts of DL course or when awarded the qualification.

Thanks.

Iain

Paul Oliver

23-03-2004, 16:20

Hi

The O2 notes come with the initial pack, so they are with the OD notes, and if they crossover from the old sylabus at SD or DL level they come with the manual and notes for that one at no extra cost.

You sign off a lesson once you are satisfied they have reached the specified competency level for that lesson as per the instrustor notes/manual i.e "Competent and Confident".

So if they have done all 6 lessons and been signed of as "competent and confident" in those lessons they have passed that subject. Same as pool lessons, you sign off when they are compitent and confident, there is no pool assesment 'cos its a continual assesment.

Doing it as an SDC is charging ?12 for a sticker they do not need 'cos its signed off in their log book, and they have already paid for those notes and log book.

You can do the 6 lessons in a 1 day course or as 6 lessons or however you feel best to achieve that training objective and achieve the required standards. (We have done it as a 1 day course and as 3 double evening lessons plus a practice session).

Personally i feel this new system is so much better as in the space of 12 months we have been able to increase our number of O2 administrators from 6 to 28 which has got to be good for a branch. Plus all those OD and SD have far more knowledge of F.Aid and diving related illness than they would have in the past.

Afterall O2 Admin is not rocket science, but as the backbone of our F.Aid the more that know it the better, also if we had an emergency the experienced diver who was an O2 administrator is probably going to be the Rescue Manager, he should be able to delegate the O2 admin to a less experienced diver while he gets on with the bigger picture. HTH

Regards

Paul
A big fan of the new DTP.

terryh

23-03-2004, 16:53

Doing it as an SDC is charging ?12 for a sticker they do not need 'cos its signed off in their log book, and they have already paid for those notes and log book.

But that does make the asumption that they want or are ready
for DL. Entry requirement for O2 SDC is Ocean Diver, so you can
get them trained much earlier.

After all is ?12 really that much to pay for a stand alone
course & ticket?

By the time our lot have got anywhere near DL they are already
have O2 & PRM, which not only makes the rest of DL theory
about one nights work, but gives you many more competent
rescuers considerably earlier.

TerryH

PeteM

23-03-2004, 17:28

By the time our lot have got anywhere near DL they are already
have O2 & PRM, which not only makes the rest of DL theory
about one nights work, but gives you many more competent
rescuers considerably earlier.

For the O2 bit there is absolutely no reason you can not do it as soon as they have finished OD - that's why they get the notes that early. So why waste money? Do the course (we do it as a one day course) and sign them up on the DL sheets.

Pete

Paul Oliver

23-03-2004, 22:46

Pete

Yes thats what we do, its not starting DL its doing lessons that count towards it with no extra cost. But primerily its giving us lots of O2 Administrators.

Terry

Sorry i may not have made that clear. The ones we have trained are a mixture of New OD, New SD and a few experienced SD starting DL. Just 'cos they are doing the O2 lessons, it don't mean they are starting DL at all, but its there in the bank if they need it, the same as doing an SDC but ?12 cheaper.

Thats why the notes come with the OD pack.

I would also add that i had 3 of our qualified O2 administrators who did the course several years ago sitting in the lessons as revision.

Of those doing DL it worked very well with their practical rescue scenarios later on as we used O2 admin in these as well giving a more rounded scenario than i remember doing on PRM (which i did several years before O2).

Regards

Paul

Lindsey Doyle

28-03-2004, 20:23

2) Assessment

As far as I can tell, assessment of O2 Admin happens during the DL theory test only, the practical assessment having been removed completely (?).

No, one of the 2 DL rescue lessons/assessments includes a session on CPR & O2 admin.

When the O2 Admin Module is taught ("at any stage after completing Ocean Diver"), how is it assessed? At what stage is the student considered qualified to give O2?

I just ran it for first time NOT as an SDC, to satisfy myself they were Com & con, they were observed/corrected as necessary during all practice sessions AND we ran a short scenario at the end where they brought together all they had learned on day.

If the course is being run as part of the DL course, is the theory assessed at any stage prior to the DL exam (presumably still done at the end of the course?).

Guess it's not an "Award" unless they pass the theory exam as on SDC. I got my students to sit the exam to ensure us as Instructors had delivered it adequately & that the new lectures covered same as old SDC! (They all did well, guess if any had not reached pass mark I'd have not signed off their theory lessons)Luckily, as they weren't keen on the idea of exam!!.#
HTH, Lindsey.

nick kay

29-03-2004, 08:58

When the O2 Admin Module is taught ("at any stage after completing Ocean Diver"), how is it assessed? At what stage is the student considered qualified to give O2?

My understanding, is that to teach O2 (not as an SDC), the following statements are correct:
1. OD (who did O2 as part of their course) thats now OWI can teach O2
2. OWI thats completed the O2 SDC can teach O2

I think I'm also correct in saying that either of the above can now teach the O2 SDC!

Guess it's not an "Award" unless they pass the theory exam as on SDC. I got my students to sit the exam to ensure us as Instructors had delivered it adequately & that the new lectures covered same as old SDC! (They all did well, guess if any had not reached pass mark I'd have not signed off their theory lessons)Luckily, as they weren't keen on the idea of exam!!.#

My understanding, is that CNx and O2 are Awards, i.e. they both have Theory & Practical test/attainment levels, whereas the rest of the SDCs are literally that "courses"

Stu Sheridan

29-03-2004, 12:49

A bit of further clarification required here I' afraid.

My DO has told all of us dive leaders that we're not qualified to administer O2 (We did the latest DL Course inc O2 Module) until we have done the SDC.
Consequently the DO won't authorize us to use the O2 kit when we go diving as small groups rather than as a branch.

Is this correct? From reading the previous posts I get the feeling that it isn't!

Whats the verdict?

Stu

PeteM

29-03-2004, 12:58

terryh

05-04-2004, 14:23

My DO has told all of us dive leaders that we're not qualified to administer O2 (We did the latest DL Course inc O2 Module) until we have done the SDC.
Consequently the DO won't authorize us to use the O2 kit when we go diving as small groups rather than as a branch.

Dispite some posts to the contrary the O2 module of DL is not
a stand alone course. The DL exam has several questions on
both O2 admin and 1st aid. As you cannot take a part exam,
it follows that you must complete all of DL before taking
the exam and thus being O2 certified.

So if you have completed and have been awarded DL, you are O2
qualified.

That's the main reason we do the SDC in full as a stand alone1
course. It's not dependent on completing or even starting
DL.

TerryH

iainmsmith

05-04-2004, 17:54

:=My DO has told all of us dive leaders that we're not qualified to administer O2 (We did the latest DL Course inc O2 Module) until we have done the SDC.
:=Consequently the DO won't authorize us to use the O2 kit when we go diving as small groups rather than as a branch.
:=

Dispite some posts to the contrary the O2 module of DL is not
a stand alone course. The DL exam has several questions on
both O2 admin and 1st aid. As you cannot take a part exam,
it follows that you must complete all of DL before taking
the exam and thus being O2 certified.

Says who? It's certainly not what HQ are saying. I quote:

"Throughout the current diver training syllabus for all grades there is a system of continual assessment for practical skills, in conjunction with the end of lesson tests and transfer of knowledge can be judged by instructors in this way. When instructing the O2 Admin module in a Branch as core diver training, typically progressively over several weeks, the training can be built up and recapped more easily than on a formal SDC as a one-day event.

For your second point, as long as the instructor has delivered the training and satisfied that students are competent, when the QRB is signed up for those particular elements DT2-7, they are equally qualified to administer O2 as therapy to divers, as a student that has done the same content on an SDC. There is no need for additional certification."

So if you have completed and have been awarded DL, you are O2
qualified.

Or if you've completed the parts of the DL Oxygen Module, whatever your grade is.

Now, IMO, there _should_ be a formal theory test at the end of the module (after all, the even the DL test doesn't assess the theory to the same depth that the O2 SDC did), but I don't think that one should have to charge the students an additional amount for the privilege. I'm also not sure how true HQ's assumption that we all teach this over a series of meetings is - the vast majority of correspondance that I've seen seems to suggest that the Module is being run in SDC format.

However, until and unless BSAC tweak things, the official line is that completing the Oxygen Module of DL _does_ qualify one to administer oxygen.

Iain

terryh

05-04-2004, 20:01

Before anybody gets too het up, I am playing devil's advocate.

Says who? It's certainly not what HQ are saying. I quote:

"Throughout the current diver training syllabus for all grades there is a system of continual assessment for practical skills, in conjunction with the end of lesson tests and transfer of knowledge can be judged by instructors in this way. When instructing the O2 Admin module in a Branch as core diver training, typically progressively over several weeks, the training can be built up and recapped more easily than on a formal SDC as a one-day event.

So why the questions on O2 etc. in the DL exam?
The above statement say to me that it's an attendance/assesment
and no exam at the end, yet we have exactly that with the DL
exam!

For your second point, as long as the instructor has delivered the training and satisfied that students are competent, when the QRB is signed up for those particular elements DT2-7, they are equally qualified to administer O2 as therapy to divers, as a student that has done the same content on an SDC. There is no need for additional certification."

Sorry same again. The DL exam pass mark is in part inclusive of
awnsering those O2 questions.

Now, IMO, there _should_ be a formal theory test at the end of the module (after all, the even the DL test doesn't assess the theory to the same depth that the O2 SDC did), but I don't think that one should have to charge the students an additional amount for the privilege. I'm also not sure how true HQ's assumption that we all teach this over a series of meetings is - the vast majority of correspondance that I've seen seems to suggest that the Module is being run in SDC format.

Agreed, a formal test would make it (IMO) a stand alone module
and truly equal to the SDC.

However, until and unless BSAC tweak things, the official line is that completing the Oxygen Module of DL _does_ qualify one to administer oxygen.

Before or after the DL exam?????????

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion as to when O2
admin is/isnt awarded.
Is it on completion of the modules or DL?

If it is true continual assessment, then there should be no
requirement for any O2 related questions in the DL exam.
Otherwise the opposite is true and it is assessed and you cant
be O2 unless you sit the exam and are a DL.

TerryH

iainmsmith

05-04-2004, 21:45

Before anybody gets too het up, I am playing devil's advocate.

Who, you? :)

:=Says who? It's certainly not what HQ are saying. I quote:
:=
:="Throughout the current diver training syllabus for all grades there is a system of continual assessment for practical skills, in conjunction with the end of lesson tests and transfer of knowledge can be judged by instructors in this way. When instructing the O2 Admin module in a Branch as core diver training, typically progressively over several weeks, the training can be built up and recapped more easily than on a formal SDC as a one-day event.
:=

So why the questions on O2 etc. in the DL exam?

[also playing Devil's Advocate]

Because it's a test of the knowledge which a DL should have at that point in his or her training. This should include the knowledge to manage an incident. An oxygen administrator does not necessarily need to know why they are doing what they are doing - they need to know _how_ to do it, with guidance from the Rescue Manager. (and no, I'm not entirely happy with that logic)

The above statement say to me that it's an attendance /
assesment and no exam at the end, yet we have exactly that
with the DL exam!

Indeed.

:=For your second point, as long as the instructor has delivered the training and satisfied that students are competent, when the QRB is signed up for those particular elements DT2-7, they are equally qualified to administer O2 as therapy to divers, as a student that has done the same content on an SDC. There is no need for additional certification."
:=

Sorry same again. The DL exam pass mark is in part inclusive
of awnsering those O2 questions.

But that test is to lead to qualification as DL, not oxygen administrator. I had to answer questions on Chartwork and ADT in my AD exam, but had never previously been assessed on my theoretical knowledge on those topics. I don't see a huge difference between what happened in that exam and what currently happens in the DL exam.

:=Now, IMO, there _should_ be a formal theory test at the end of the module (after all, the even the DL test doesn't assess the theory to the same depth that the O2 SDC did), but I don't think that one should have to charge the students an additional amount for the privilege. I'm also not sure how true HQ's assumption that we all teach this over a series of meetings is - the vast majority of correspondance that I've seen seems to suggest that the Module is being run in SDC format.
:=

Agreed, a formal test would make it (IMO) a stand alone
module and truly equal to the SDC.

:=However, until and unless BSAC tweak things, the official line is that completing the Oxygen Module of DL _does_ qualify one to administer oxygen.

Before or after the DL exam?????????

Before.

What gets me that if we are doing the SDC then why not just
call it that, have an exam at the end and include it as part
of DL?

Or even do what is done at the moment, but include an O2 Admin theory test on the instructor CD to be done at the end of the module, which, as at present, can be done at any time after OD qualification. In other words a test of knowledge at the end of the module to qualify as an Oxygen Administrator with a reassessment of that knowledge in the DL theory test.

After all isnt this exactly what we have ben doing (at cost)
in the old Advanced syllabus?

Indeed. But now that we give the O2 notes out with the OD student packs, I see no reason at all not to make the theory test available to the instructors assessing the module.

Does the module require more formal theory assessment? IMO, yes. I don't believe that an end-of-lesson Q&A session gets close to the test of theoretical knowledge that a formal theory assessment does - it can't. All you do is show that a number of the students were each able to answer one or two questions. That doesn't mean that they had all taken in as much information as they should have done.

I also have issues with people being able to do things (ie the practice of oxygen administration) without a proven understanding of why they are doing what they are doing.

OTOH, the solution is fairly easy. Many of us have copies of the O2 SDC Theory Test left over from courses which we have run. We may not be able to require that the student doing the module passes this test, but it does allow us to assess information transfer by asking them to sit it.

Iain

terryh

05-04-2004, 22:00

:=After all isnt this exactly what we have ben doing (at cost)
:=in the old Advanced syllabus?

Indeed. But now that we give the O2 notes out with the OD student packs, I see no reason at all not to make the theory test available to the instructors assessing the module.

Does the module require more formal theory assessment? IMO, yes. I don't believe that an end-of-lesson Q&A session gets close to the test of theoretical knowledge that a formal theory assessment does - it can't. All you do is show that a number of the students were each able to answer one or two questions. That doesn't mean that they had all taken in as much information as they should have done.

I also have issues with people being able to do things (ie the practice of oxygen administration) without a proven understanding of why they are doing what they are doing.

OTOH, the solution is fairly easy. Many of us have copies of the O2 SDC Theory Test left over from courses which we have run. We may not be able to require that the student doing the module passes this test, but it does allow us to assess information transfer by asking them to sit it.

We have (as a Uni club) already made the decision to pay the
extra ?12 and do it as an SDC, mainly because divers approach
DL about the time of there finals and may not complete the
entire course. With many ending up in foreign climes, O2 admin
SDC is considered to be of greater worth than a collection of
modules as part of another incomplete course.

The solution (IMO) is easy. The modules could quite easily
have there own exam and O2 award given. The O2 questions
removed from the DL exam and all in with the same price.

If it is the O2 SDC in all but name, why not just call it that.

So if you are a OD or Sport diver and want to do O2 you pay ?12.
If you are a DL trainee it's in with the course.

TerryH

iainmsmith

05-04-2004, 22:15

We have (as a Uni club) already made the decision to pay the
extra ?12 and do it as an SDC, mainly because divers approach
DL about the time of there finals and may not complete the
entire course. With many ending up in foreign climes, O2
admin SDC is considered to be of greater worth than a
collection of modules as part of another incomplete course.

So this means that your trainees end up paying twice for the same course materials?

The solution (IMO) is easy. The modules could quite easily
have there own exam and O2 award given.

Agreed.

The O2 questions removed from the DL exam

Disagree. If you're going to remove the O2 question from DL because they have already been assessed, then you should also remove all questions relating to material from Ocean and Sports Diver courses. IMO, the DL theory test should assess all the knowledge which a diver at that stage should possess and therefore anything in the training which they have done up to that point is fair game.

and all in with the same price.

Which should, IMO, be free, as they have already paid for the course materials in the basic training pack.

If it is the O2 SDC in all but name, why not just call it
that.

So if you are a OD or Sport diver and want to do O2 you pay
?12.
If you are a DL trainee it's in with the course.

This is the bit I don't get. While I understand why your Branch is doing what it is, what is the logic of the BSAC charging someone twice for the same materials because they want to be more useful, better trained divers and have a piece of paper that says so. (I think you are right that a piece of paper is going to count for more elsewhere than a series of signed-off lessons for a more advanced grade)

Iain

Paul Oliver

06-04-2004, 00:02

Stu

Your DO is talking Sh*te. You are qualified and he is opening himself up to litigation by refusing to let you use it. Diver Magazine Oct 2002 the case of Ann Krymer and ?25,000 payout.

Question:- What harm will you cause by using it?

Question:- What harm will you not cure by not using it?

Better a part trained operator putting a diver on O2 than no-one doing it cos they are scared of what?

There is lots of damage can be done by not administering it at the earliest opertunity. There is NO Damage caused by administering it when not required. The only potential grey areas are OxTox hits and Non Diving Casualties which are covered on the training.

Anyone trying to prevent use of the kit is an Ass and needs his Ass kicking. Its simple the training standards are in the manual but some don't want to change or build walls to prevent change FOR THE BETTER.

Regards

Paul

Dave

06-04-2004, 09:11

Anyone trying to prevent use of the kit is an Ass and needs his Ass kicking. Its simple the training standards are in the manual but some don't want to change or build walls to prevent change FOR THE BETTER.

Not at all. Only a O2 qualified administrator is covered for administering O2 and then only in realtion to a diving related injury. Not permitting an unqualified person to administer it is perfectly sensible and correct. An ASS would be someone who ignores this and lets anyone take it

Dave

PeteM

06-04-2004, 10:22

:=
:=Anyone trying to prevent use of the kit is an Ass and needs his Ass kicking. Its simple the training standards are in the manual but some don't want to change or build walls to prevent change FOR THE BETTER.

Not at all. Only a O2 qualified administrator is covered for administering O2 and then only in realtion to a diving related injury. Not permitting an unqualified person to administer it is perfectly sensible and correct. An ASS would be someone who ignores this and lets anyone take it

But the guy is a new style DL so he IS a qualifed O2 administrator

terryh

06-04-2004, 11:01

But the guy is a new style DL so he IS a qualifed O2 administrator:=

But is it a sancioned club dive?
I might be reading wrongly between the lines, but the original
post mentioned small groups and implied it was sort of outside
of branch dives.

So agreed if they are full DL why not O2 admin, unless there is
something we are not being told.

Many times on these fora, one post is followed by condemnation
without access to the other sides point of view. Before we
indulge in petty name calling, might it be prudent to actually
find out in detail why he/she may have made such a ruling?

All clubs are NOT the same and a blanket approach is not neccessarily the best.

TerryH

Paul Oliver

06-04-2004, 12:58

Dave

If you are signed off as Competent and Confident then its done.

So in another scenario are you saying a beginer who has not finnished his OD training and qualified should not use say a CBL to rescue his Dive Instructor if he passes out on a training dive? 'cos as he has not been signed off as OD he is not qualified to use a CBL for real?

Probably more scope for injury to the cas than giving O2 on the surface i'd say.

Paul

Stu Sheridan

12-04-2004, 16:37

Just a minute guys, I've just checked back to see that an argument has been raging in my absence!

Few points:

DO is a "she", and has only been doing what she thought was procedurally correct.
Since this error has been pointed out, the sitution has been rectified.

Dives as small groups. I can see why this may have been misleading, what I meant was Branch sanctioned dives, usually involving 2-4 experienced divers of DL/SD grade to places such as wastwater, hodges etc.

We tend to run most courses in house, for some reason, despite asking, our two instructors have never made any efforts to set an o2 course up. This has led to a situation where we have 2 members of a 30 strong branch who can administer o2.
Interestingly enough they also keep the o2 kit. Very kind of them to store it for us eh?

I can see the danger of not having o2 on dive site, which is why I bought (with a mate) my own.

My original question was really to benefit other members of the club who may not be quite as proactive as others.

Thanks for all the info you have posted, it's been very helpful and has confirmed what I suspected all along.

Stu.

Martin

19-04-2004, 14:35

What get's me is that, as a TI, I can happily teach the DL theory lessons DT2-7, therefy effectively certifying an oxygen administrator by signing off the lessons, but I'm not allowed to assist on a O2 'SDC' - even when I'm very willing and perfectly capable - because it's an 'SDC' which must be taught by OWI's who are 'approved'.

Seems potty to me.