View Full Version : CBL - getting attention
Here's one for you on a Friday afternoon.
2x Instructors and only a minor disagreement on a minor part of
CBL. Imagine face down diver.
1) Wave hand in front of face. No response grab and swing round
into lift position, start lift.
2) Wave hand in front of face. No response grab and swing round
into lift position. Give two taps/hard pushes on shoulder
area. Still no response, start lift.
I know what I do, but whats the opinion of those on here?
1 or 2?
TerryH
Mike Halligan
20-02-2004, 15:50
Terry,
FWIW, I'd go with (1).
Reasons -
a) the KISS principle
b) if the prone diver didn't want lifting then I guess (s)he'd make feelings known (having been grabbed and then swung face-to-face with some ugly mug)
Mike
Terry,
FWIW, I'd go with (1).
Reasons -
a) the KISS principle
b) if the prone diver didn't want lifting then I guess (s)he'd make feelings known (having been grabbed and then swung face-to-face with some ugly mug)
Yep, my thought originally. But the "what if" is when the
diver is maybe semi-concious and the grab so smooth they dont
know they are being lifted.
Thinking is, that it may be worse if they come round during the
ascent.
TerryH
Edward Haynes
20-02-2004, 17:08
Also would go for (1).
Casualty could still come round during lift following (2) so what's the advantage? (Apart from breaking their shoulder)
Edward
Mike Halligan
20-02-2004, 17:26
Yep, my thought originally. But the "what if" is when the
diver is maybe semi-concious and the grab so smooth they dont
know they are being lifted.
Thinking is, that it may be worse if they come round during the
ascent.
Again, IMHO.
So, what about the "What-if"? We're contemplating a "Good Samaritan" life-saving attempt and not some academic or legal hypothesis. My land-shark sister would say, "Where there's a will, there's relatives". Bearing that in mind, if the subject doesn't like it then drop 'em - to swim home unaided.
Mike ;-)
So, what about the "What-if"? We're contemplating a "Good Samaritan" life-saving attempt and not some academic or legal hypothesis. My land-shark sister would say, "Where there's a will, there's relatives". Bearing that in mind, if the subject doesn't like it then drop 'em - to swim home unaided.
Playing devils advocate.
All 1st Aid training says check for a response. No different
UW, but how effective is it?
Situation doesnt apply if he is face up, you can still do a
couple of (light) taps on the shoulder while looking into the
eyes for a response.
Face down, wave your hand in front. Cant see any real response
so you grab. Now this act alone, may be forceful enough to get
a response, but what if it isnt?
Surely the rescuer must ensure that any check is effective?
Cant do that without looking in the face, hence secondary
tap on shoulder.
Discuss.
TerryH
Philip Smith
20-02-2004, 20:19
CBL. Imagine face down diver.
1) Wave hand in front of face. No response grab and swing round
into lift position, start lift.
2) Wave hand in front of face. No response grab and swing round
into lift position. Give two taps/hard pushes on shoulder
area. Still no response, start lift.
I know what I do, but whats the opinion of those on here?
1 or 2?
Neither. If they were lying face down, you probably wouldn't have room to wave your hand in front of their face. I've never been convinced by the need to spend time checking responsiveness underwater anyway. Someone lying limp on the bottom looks very different from someone having a close look at a nudibranch. If I wasn't sure, I might give them a nudge or a shoogle. If they are in fact conscious, they will respond as soon as you grip them. If they are "semi-conscious", they need to be lifted anyway.
Philip Smith
Mike Halligan
20-02-2004, 21:55
Terry,
The Devil has no need of another advocate, he has them all.
Grabbing an inert lifeform and propelling it to the surface whilst maintaining the safety of the rescuer should be quite enough. All this theoretical "Do, check" stuff is very fine but IMHO irrelevant. JFDI is the appropriate and reasonable approach.
As I said, if the rescued don't like it, we can always dump 'em. Until then, let's get the corpse into the fresh air, pronto. Waving hands and/or punching the poor soul doesn't add any value. Agonising whether (or which) merely compounds an already futile and somehow ridiculous charade.
This doesn't fit your very curt instruction "Discuss" but then I don't feel bound to comply.
Mike :-)
Nick McV
21-02-2004, 10:55
Once you have grabbed the poor unfortunate, got them upright, wedged your hand under the BC strap (I usually give a little shake to ensure good grip and that the strap buckle is secure) and dumped your own excess air (if any) and organised the dumps/controls on the casualty, if they haven't responded in that time, I'd say go for it.
In the final analysis, isn't it better to say 'Sorry for the misunderstanding' to a live diver on the surface than to relatives under more sombre circumstances?
Neither. If they were lying face down, you probably wouldn't have room to wave your hand in front of their face. I've never been convinced by the need to spend time checking responsiveness underwater anyway. Someone lying limp on the bottom looks very different from someone having a close look at a nudibranch. If I wasn't sure, I might give them a nudge or a shoogle. If they are in fact conscious, they will respond as soon as you grip them. If they are "semi-conscious", they need to be lifted anyway.
Philip Smith
That is what I was thinking, and was taught (more or less), by another agency.
Nick
:=Neither. If they were lying face down, you probably wouldn't have room to wave your hand in front of their face. I've never been convinced by the need to spend time checking responsiveness underwater anyway. Someone lying limp on the bottom looks very different from someone having a close look at a nudibranch. If I wasn't sure, I might give them a nudge or a shoogle. If they are in fact conscious, they will respond as soon as you grip them. If they are "semi-conscious", they need to be lifted anyway.
:=
:=Philip Smith
That is what I was thinking, and was taught (more or less), by another agency.
Nick
You obvioulsy havnt done safety cover on photo courses/shoots!
Some get so ingrosed in waiting for that nudi to crawl into the
frame, you would think they were comatose.
Remember (I know this will get me replies of safety is
everything etc) quite often these are guests paying lots of
dosh. Get it wrong (start a lift without checking) and they
wont be applauding your zeal, but looking for another dive
school.
Still dont go with the no room bit. If the mask is that close
to the deck you cant get your hand in (50mm), then it would be
pretty obvious there not wondering about f'stops!
TerryH
Steve Walker
23-02-2004, 16:20
I always teach trainees to grab the potential casualty by both harness straps and give them a good shake, that's the way it was taught to me, if they're half (or fully!) asleep or in some other kind of torpor, that should snap them out of it
Lynn Jackson
23-02-2004, 17:54
This is all very well when the casualty isn't fighting back - but what if they're *very* conscious and *very* panicked?
I drill and practice both calm conscious and unconscous regularly but I honestly am not sure what to do in this situation. My DO is adamant that you never leave your buddy, but what if they are threatening your survival too? Do you stay out of arms reach until they stop struggling? Do you swim around and lift them from behind?
All advice will be helpful on this...
This is all very well when the casualty isn't fighting back - but what if they're *very* conscious and *very* panicked?
I drill and practice both calm conscious and unconscous regularly but I honestly am not sure what to do in this situation. My DO is adamant that you never leave your buddy, but what if they are threatening your survival too? Do you stay out of arms reach until they stop struggling? Do you swim around and lift them from behind?
All advice will be helpful on this...
Very much from my PADI training rather than BSAC, but you only
put yourself in the danger that YOU want to.
If you do a CBL it is marginally more dangerous than an
ordinary ascent. You have assessed the risk and carried on
anyway. However if that person then started to panic and you
thought you were in danger yourself, then let them go.
Same applies on the surface. You NEVER go in face to face,
always working your way round the back and grabbing from behind
with a headlock. Always assume that they are NOT ok even if they say they say they are.
If things got really bad then flat handed finger-tip punch
in the stomach or kidneys will do enough to stop most attacks.
Bottom line is that an unconcious diver is less likely to hurt
you, so let him struggle, get tired and when he starts to give up, move in.
It might be PC to say never let go, but in a panic that maybe
your only option.
Ask around your club if there are any PADI rescue divers.
They do a lot more stuff on paniced divers than BSAC.
TerryH
ric morte
23-02-2004, 20:16
Ask around your club if there are any PADI rescue divers.
They do a lot more stuff on paniced divers than BSAC.
TerryH
When me and my friend were practising open water drills at Stoney for our O/W practical exam there were two students undertaking their PADI rescue diver training. We took a few minutes off to watch them in the water. We were very impressed by the whole approach. The bit on a panicking diver was particularly good.
Incidently we were even more impressed by the fact that the instructor had some good wet slates. We, on the other hand, had spent ages making up and laminating our own for the 'mini drills'.
I always teach trainees to grab the potential casualty by both harness straps and give them a good shake, that's the way it was taught to me, if they're half (or fully!) asleep or in some other kind of torpor, that should snap them out of it
If you shake vigorously and the diver is actually comatose do you not risk their reg coming out? Or possibly complicating an injury which may have left them in the state they are in.
I further suggest that the bottom of the sea is no place for a kip or even half a kip. If the diver is at all incapacitated lift em.
I am firmly with Mike H on this, don't mess about you can always argue about it on the surface.
Regards
Matt
This is all very well when the casualty isn't fighting back - but what if they're *very* conscious and *very* panicked?
I drill and practice both calm conscious and unconscous regularly but I honestly am not sure what to do in this situation. My DO is adamant that you never leave your buddy, but what if they are threatening your survival too? Do you stay out of arms reach until they stop struggling? Do you swim around and lift them from behind?
All advice will be helpful on this...
All IMHO
My first rule of diving is "I'm all right Jack" I am not saying you should neglect your buddy, just that you should not put his well-being before your own.
Be cautious of what your DO is saying to you. I was similarly brainwashed to always stick with my buddy. Following a more experienced diver who disregarded our carefully considered dive plan placed me about as close to death underwater as I ever want to come. Your limits are your limits no one elses.
I have faced severely panicked divers on two occassions. Both times my attempts to assist were met with their attempts to punch me in the face. I went with what felt right. Stay out of arms reach, plan what your going to do and keep reassessing that, maintain eye contact and hope they snap out of it. It also helped me to count in my head so that I maintained a realistic sense of time. Luckily on both occassions it worked.
The problem with the tank lift is that you can't maintain eye contact. Whether that is a good or bad thing depends on the diver you are trying to assist. One way or another a panicking diver is going to calm down. Whatever else you do, you need to make sure you are still around to assist them when they do so.
Regards
Matt
You obvioulsy havnt done safety cover on photo courses/shoots!
Some get so ingrosed in waiting for that nudi to crawl into the
frame, you would think they were comatose.
Remember (I know this will get me replies of safety is
everything etc) quite often these are guests paying lots of
dosh. Get it wrong (start a lift without checking) and they
wont be applauding your zeal, but looking for another dive
school.
Photographers. The camera will be aimed at something. Place hand in shot and make OK sign.
Marine biologists. Look for frantic slate scribbling. If not apparent tug sharply on fin and smile when they frantically turn around looking for the seal.
in both cases once you have their attention point at your contents guage to justify your disturbance.
Works a treat and does not require anyone to punch, slap, shake or otherwise assault anyone else :-)
Of course the biggest problem is not the photographer or biologist becoming comatose, but the safety diver dieing of boredom.
Regards
Matt
Lindsey Doyle
24-02-2004, 00:17
Situation doesnt apply if he is face up, you can still do a
couple of (light) taps on the shoulder while looking into the
eyes for a response.
Face down, wave your hand in front. Cant see any real response
so you grab. Now this act alone, may be forceful enough to get
a response, but what if it isnt?
Surely the rescuer must ensure that any check is effective?
Cant do that without looking in the face, hence secondary
tap on shoulder.
It's the "custom" in my branch to look into eyes & lightly tap on mask while getting grip (casualty upright by now)to check for response......but starting to lift an apparently lifeless diver is the priority......
Suspect the wave under eyes of face-down diver would require a few secs delay while you gave "resting/observing" diver a chance to turn over & signal you...surely time wasted?
Cheers, Lindsey.
Photographers. The camera will be aimed at something. Place hand in shot and make OK sign.
Not exactly a good idea if they are doing macro, which is
inevitably what they are doing that gives the impression of
being comatose!
Marine biologists. Look for frantic slate scribbling. If not apparent tug sharply on fin and smile when they frantically turn around looking for the seal.
And what if they are counting how many grains of sand are in
the search grid? Besides works better if you say that Whitetips,
Reef, Angel (pick shark local to the area) are about and have
been known to "nibble" divers fins.
in both cases once you have their attention point at your contents guage to justify your disturbance.
Now that I do agree with. You can forget all the warnings about
normal dive planning. Photographers have got to be No1 in the
"I dont need to look at my gauge" stakes. One of the main
reasons they end up needing safety cover.
Works a treat and does not require anyone to punch, slap, shake or otherwise assault anyone else :-)
Of course the biggest problem is not the photographer or biologist becoming comatose, but the safety diver dieing of boredom.
Tell me about it!!!!
My best one was hanging midwater over a dropoff, waiting
to catch the photographers who would insist on falling off the
edge. Funniest bit was when a German dive school of obvious
novices, went steaming overhead whilst doing a brilliant dredger impersination. Result = total wipeout!
TerryH
Paul Oliver
25-02-2004, 03:51
I'm with Mike H as well.
Plus:-
"All 1st Aid training says check for a response. No different
UW, but how effective is it?"
Does not "Check for and if necessary remove from further danger" come before that, i feel that the underwater situation falls into that, as we all know we have to get to the surface to start First Aid.
Regards
Paul
Nevil Adkins
25-02-2004, 04:13
In the final analysis, isn't it better to say 'Sorry for the misunderstanding' to a live diver on the surface than to relatives under more sombre circumstances?
Imagine the scene - we were doing a trimix course and bimbling around a very small wreck at 50m with not a lot to look at. I looked around and noticed the instructor face down on the sand not moving. "Oh heck - the sod's gone and thrown a rescue scenario into the dive" I think and motor towards said instructor. I grab his shoulder, turn him round, look into his eyes, to see a mixture of surprise and amusement. He gave me a big OK and we continued our dive. We had a good laugh about it back in the boat.
Cheers
Nevil
Incidently we were even more impressed by the fact that the instructor had some good wet slates. We, on the other hand, had spent ages making up and laminating our own for the 'mini drills'.
Ric,
Instructor prompt cards are available from the BSAC web shop for all grades upto Advanced. Have a look......
ric morte
25-02-2004, 09:44
Instructor prompt cards are available from the BSAC web shop for all grades upto Advanced. Have a look......
Yes, back then I already had a set of the old DTP slates for the diver grades. What I was referring to was a set of prompt cards for the O/W practical exam: single drills only such as CBL (first time lift) detailing the briefing, exercise, timings, debrief, etc.
By the way I still have the slates on Microsoft Word if anyone is interested...
Ric
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