Auto Air

[Gonzo Richards]

If an Auto Air or Air 2 is fitted to a bc do you still need an octopus ? Can anyone help with the rules on alternative air suplies

[Andy Wade]

If an Auto Air or Air 2 is fitted to a bc do you still need an octopus ? Can anyone help with the rules on alternative air suplies

It depends on your buddy to an extent.
If you have an Auto Air or an Air 2, then you do have an alternative air supply. So you don't _actually_ have to have an octopus as well.
However, the technique is slightly different than for that of a person with an octopus regulator on their main reulator first stage.
Generally speaking they would give their octopus rig to the person out of air (I say 'generally speaking' as I don't want to go over the issues surrounding donation of main or octopus in an emergency).
With an Auto Air or Air 2 you need to donate the main regulator mouthpiece and use the Auto Air or Air 2 for yourself as their hoses are not long enough for an easy donation to someone who is out of air.
Provided that this is recognised beforehand, and run through with your buddy before the dive, then this isn't a problem.

I have heard of people experiencing problems with Auto Air and Air 2, but from what I can gather, this is usually because they don't get serviced and checked as regularly as a normal regulator and octopus rig.
For some reason, many people don't seem to recognise their importance because they're part of a BC rather than a regulator.
Until it's too late of course.....

[NeilB]

Andy's reply seems to just about sum it up, but I would add that when using the air2 as an AAS you have very little room for movement. Due to the length of the hose your head is turned to the left and this makes eye contact with you buddy difficult. So I suppose an AAS ascent with an air2 would be even harder.
Go for a octopus, or a pony or, ultimatley, twins.

[Edward Haynes]

When the idea of having an AAS was coming in I opted for the Air II, but soon realised that my buddy would grab the Air II in a real situation. They would have my buoyancy controls, so for a little extra expenditure I had an Octopus fitted to come over my left shoulder allowing face to face assents. The Air II is (IMHO) the best inflation/deflation, but then I'm biased towards Scubapro.

Edward

[PeteM]

If an Auto Air or Air 2 is fitted to a bc do you still need an octopus ? Can anyone help with the rules on alternative air suplies

In addition to the above reply's you also need to remember that you are not allowed to teach with any kit that requires you to donate the primary reg, therefore if you teach you must have an octopus

HTH

Pete

[pauls1149]

I?m more than a little concerned about this thread. The initial question asks about the ?rules?. I didn?t think we were in the job of making ?rules? about people?s kit configuration. Surely it?s only advice. There is no set way to configure kit for diving each person must decide for themselves what they want and how they want it. The argument about what is and what is not an AAS and what reg should be used by a buddy in an out of air situation will go on for ever.

If you are looking for advice about kit configuration then the answers given have been sound. If you are looking for ?rules? then the answer must be there are none. There is no ?BSAC way? and long may that be the case or we will never be able to progress in our diving techniques.

[PeteM]

If you are looking for advice about kit configuration then the answers given have been sound. If you are looking for ?rules? then the answer must be there are none. There is no ?BSAC way? and long may that be the case or we will never be able to progress in our diving techniques.

Actually I would strongly disagree that there are no rules, the are most definitely rules for instructing, you only have to read the instructors hand book to establish that.

And when the NDO says "you must not instuct in a situation where you will be donating the primary reg" that that becomes a de facto rule

[Andrew Taylor]

If an Auto Air or Air 2 is fitted to a bc do you still need an octopus ? Can anyone help with the rules on alternative air suplies

There is no right/wrong configuration; try many variations to see which best suits your needs/comfort/pocket.

As for your original question of "rules" then we must consider why you are asking?

If you are concerned about your buddy, then (as far as I know (and I don't pretend to know all)) there are no rules. But if you are teaching go for the octopus - not an Auto Air or Air II. Only teach using a dedicated valve orientated to the buddy - that means the 2nd stage must come over your left shoulder (unless it's side vented).

Personally I've got both, not be intention, more by natural progression as my diving has progressed.

Originally I had an Air II for personal use, I've always had very good reliable service from all my Scubapro valves (and I've had several) and I would recommend the Air II to anyone for personal use.

Later when I progressed onto teaching and became an Open Water Instructor, I invested in a dedicated octopus 2nd stage for my buddy.

No doubt some will criticise me for having too many modes of failure - they're right of course.

Some might also criticise me for have a confusing set up for my buddy. But there I would disagree - a good Buddy Check clears any doubt. My trainees see me using the Air II for my use and they practice using the octopus for their own use BEFORE we go into the water.

If your not teaching, then don't worry about using your Air II for personal use. I regularly practice using my Air II, on almost every dive, at all depths and I can very strongly recommend it, it's a very good reliable valve. Just don't forget to get it serviced.

Enjoy your diving.

Andrew Taylor
Training Officer
Hyndburn 0747

[Gordon Archer]

If an Auto Air or Air 2 is fitted to a bc do you still need an octopus ? Can anyone help with the rules on alternative air suplies



Having an Auto Air fitted to my Buddy BC I have both dived & taught succesfully with this setup.
All it takes is the purchase of the extended convaluted hose from AP Valves.
This allows for the easy use and deployment in both teaching and for real. There is nothing wrong in the use of this device.
It meets the requirements of and alternate air source and is neat and tidy. Plus for some reason itis extremly good in cold water, I have never had a free flow from this kit. Which is more than can be said from some octopus rigs I have met.
Why must people knock a particular set up because it is different!

[terryh]

Why must people knock a particular set up because it is different!:=

They're not.

Knocking the Air 2 is just way to easy. Most of us
that have had/used/experience of them have assigned them to the
bin (I have two in a box in the garage BTW).

There are many reasons why they are bad, with even fewer that
are good. Many are not the fault of the product, but of the
operator, eg: Freeflowing Air 2's because they havnt been
serviced.

While that problem may be fixed by a good servicing schedule,
it's easier to change the Air 2, than it is to change the
operator.

TerryH

[Gordon Archer]

:=Why must people knock a particular set up because it is different!:=

They're not.

Knocking the Air 2 is just way to easy. Most of us
that have had/used/experience of them have assigned them to the
bin (I have two in a box in the garage BTW).

There are many reasons why they are bad, with even fewer that
are good. Many are not the fault of the product, but of the
operator, eg: Freeflowing Air 2's because they havnt been
serviced.

While that problem may be fixed by a good servicing schedule,
it's easier to change the Air 2, than it is to change the
operator.

TerryH


I cannot comment on the Air 2 but as to the Auto Air.
Well the comment on most of us is not exactly true, I have used the Auto Air since it was first launched some 10 years or so ago, have taught and dived with it in all conditions. Even ran nitrox through it!, and I find it a good piece of kit.
I would readily recommend it to anyone.(Auto Air that is)

Regards Gordon

[Vic]

[Of an AutoAir...]

> Well the comment on most of us is not exactly true, I have used
> the Auto Air since it was first launched some 10 years or so
> ago, have taught and dived with it in all conditions. Even ran
> nitrox through it!, and I find it a good piece of kit.

I've used one for deep-water (55m) bailout. It worked, I lived.

> I would readily recommend it to anyone.(Auto Air that is)

I would certainly recommend anyone using one to service it! It's very easy to do, the manufacturer supplies parts and service manuals to anyone that needs them, and a new poppet seal which is what normally causes the problems people complain about) costs you 10p...

Vic.

[terryh]

I cannot comment on the Air 2 but as to the Auto Air.
Well the comment on most of us is not exactly true, I have used the Auto Air since it was first launched some 10 years or so ago, have taught and dived with it in all conditions. Even ran nitrox through it!, and I find it a good piece of kit.
I would readily recommend it to anyone.(Auto Air that is)


I wouldnt, but hey that's my (and your) choice. Better than
nothing yes, better than an independent cylinder or twin - well
no.

Add to that the servicing issue (which I believe has
contributed to at least two fatalities that I know of) plus the
potential for a cluster **** when used with a buddy in an OOA
situation (swapping regs, trying to use inflate/dump etc.).

Simply think that a fully working (and serviced) independently
accessable reg of the same standard as your primary is
infinatly better than a combination effort, which can only be
described as on a par with something you should only use in the
bath (warm water).

TerryH

[jens hucke]

What would be interesting in furthering the debate, isn't so much how highly or not Air2/AutoAir owners rate their unit, but how those OOA buddys/trainees who have been presented with a diver equipped with such devices rated it, as opposed to a conventional octy coming from the donor's left (as illustrated more and more in all the new BSAC litterature). Hopefully someone will give us their side of the story first hand.
regards
jens

[Gordon Archer]

I wouldnt, but hey that's my (and your) choice. Better than
nothing yes, better than an independent cylinder or twin - well
no.

Well obviously you have an extreme aversion to any other divers opinion and we will have to agree to differ over this piece of equipment


Add to that the servicing issue (which I believe has
contributed to at least two fatalities that I know of) plus the
potential for a cluster **** when used with a buddy in an OOA
situation (swapping regs, trying to use inflate/dump etc.).

Well on this comment I have some experience, Having been involved in an OOA due to a diver having free flow of both main & Octopus regs at 20m in Stoney Cove one very cold day. The equipment (Auto AIR) Worked well when called upon the diver was safely recovered.
He has since re configured with an Auto AIR.
This is why I trust this piece of equipment it has proved itself in situ and did the business. What more can you ask.

As an instuctor I have to trust my equipment, know where it is about me and how to deploy it, and trust it will do the job if needed. You do not get much of a second chance.

Simply think that a fully working (and serviced) independently
accessable reg of the same standard as your primary is
infinatly better than a combination effort, which can only be
described as on a par with something you should only use in the
bath (warm water).

The argument about keeping kit servicable can easily be argued against this type of setup as well as against any piece of equipment or setup.
The (warm water) Comment is really unfair towards an eccellent piece of equipment.
I certainly do not class Stoney as Warm Water. 4 degrees celcius on the last dive I did there.

Regards Gordon.

[terryh]

:=
Well on this comment I have some experience, Having been involved in an OOA due to a diver having free flow of both main & Octopus regs at 20m in Stoney Cove one very cold day. The equipment (Auto AIR) Worked well when called upon the diver was safely recovered.


Err sorry, cold (4-6 degrees?) at Stoney and you didnt have a
redundant air source? Or did your main, octo & pony fail?

If you want to argue that the Auto Air is (IYO) yet another
back-up (whether I like it or not) fine, but dont try and
justify it instead of a proper redundant source.

You must be a non-pro Instructor anyway as HSE wouldnt exactly
be chuffed without a decent (independent backup).

TerryH

[David J Smith]

:=:=
:=Well on this comment I have some experience, Having been involved in an OOA due to a diver having free flow of both main & Octopus regs at 20m in Stoney Cove one very cold day. The equipment (Auto AIR) Worked well when called upon the diver was safely recovered.
:=

Err sorry, cold (4-6 degrees?) at Stoney and you didnt have a
redundant air source? Or did your main, octo & pony fail?

If you want to argue that the Auto Air is (IYO) yet another
back-up (whether I like it or not) fine, but dont try and
justify it instead of a proper redundant source.

You must be a non-pro Instructor anyway as HSE wouldnt exactly
be chuffed without a decent (independent backup).

TerryH

Why wouldn't they ? and define "wouldn't exactly be chuffed"

I am sure in BSAC safe diving practices it says, under the heading Alternate Air Source "The BSAC strongly recommends that all divers carry an alternative air source (AAS) in the event that they may need to share air underwater.
Suitable AAS include an 'Octopus Rig' (a second 2nd stage fitted to the same 1st stage of the regulator, which includes the type fitted to a direct feed)."
I am sure it says it because I have just cut and paste it verbatim (hopefully not infringing BSAC copyright !).
So diving as a 'non-profit making' instructor you would be diving in accordance with safe diving practices and therefore apart from telling you that a more strongly recommended alternative would be an independent cylinder and regulator I don't see HSE really doing a lot else. And he said diver not student!
I am sure that ideally all instructors would dive with an independent source, a pony, maybe even a twin set but two things may cause problems:
1. Cost. As a BSAC instructor people tend to do it for the love of the sport and not as a money spinner so may not be able to afford that twin set and wing every season.
2. Practicality. The age old decision on how much kit to wear with potentially new students, I will leave that as it is a separate thread altogether.

Hind sight is a wonderful thing, I have dived in Stoney in cold water to 20m without a second, truly independent source of air, does that then make me a bad instructor ?? I would ask you to do a straw poll the next time you are there of club instructors who are taking trainees in and see who has a truly independent air supply and what depth they are taking them to.

I was in the unfortunate position of having to do two AAS ascents last week with the same student(!) the first after his main regulator free flowed, on the second occasion, after lunch he was even using different equipment.
I have an Auto-Air, but I also have a Octopus which I gave him, and on the second occasion he took.
I do it that way because I choose to do so, I am sure Gordon?s longer hose (ooer!) is as suitable. I choose to do it that way and I make a point of briefing it like that.

After all the primary purpose of an AAS is to supply air to your dive buddy when they have a problem with theirs, do they care where your hose is coming from at the moment that they want air or do they just remember what the brief said about what to take and where it is located. I would suggest the latter, and if the equipment is suitable for the task I would think they will be happy.

As to the suitability of Auto-Air or Air 2, I am sure if they weren?t up to the job they are advertised for, the HSE would have had something to say on the matter.


Discuss

[Gordon Archer]

Err sorry, cold (4-6 degrees?) at Stoney and you didnt have a
redundant air source? Or did your main, octo & pony fail?

None of my equipment failed! My buddy had the falure of both his Main & Octopus.

If you want to argue that the Auto Air is (IYO) yet another
back-up (whether I like it or not) fine, but dont try and
justify it instead of a proper redundant source.

Now you want to change the subject to a redundant air source, which is a different piece of equipment, and not the thread we were discussing, plus it is not a requirement to dive in cold water which you seem to imply.
There is a requirement for an Alternate Air source and this comes in several guises.

You must be a non-pro Instructor anyway as HSE wouldnt exactly
be chuffed without a decent (independent backup).

Yes I am a so called Non-Pro Instuctor.
I am a BSAC, OWI Instructor, of which there are several thousand all teaching to a set standard, having dedicated much of their spare time, effort & money to achieve the required standard, and without thought of reward.

[terryh]

:=
:=Err sorry, cold (4-6 degrees?) at Stoney and you didnt have a
:=redundant air source? Or did your main, octo & pony fail?
:=
None of my equipment failed! My buddy had the falure of both his Main & Octopus.
:=
:=If you want to argue that the Auto Air is (IYO) yet another
:=back-up (whether I like it or not) fine, but dont try and
:=justify it instead of a proper redundant source.
:=
Now you want to change the subject to a redundant air source, which is a different piece of equipment, and not the thread we were discussing, plus it is not a requirement to dive in cold water which you seem to imply.:=

Sorry Gordon, but your example changed the thread, not me.

There is a requirement for an Alternate Air source and this comes in several guises.
:=
:=You must be a non-pro Instructor anyway as HSE wouldnt exactly
:=be chuffed without a decent (independent backup).
:=
Yes I am a so called Non-Pro Instuctor.
I am a BSAC, OWI Instructor, of which there are several thousand all teaching to a set standard, having dedicated much of their spare time, effort & money to achieve the required standard, and without thought of reward.
:=

??????? I am also a volunteer BSAC OWI, put in more than some,
less than others. WHO CARES! Bottom line here is that YOU/ME
as an Instructor should be as safe as you possibly can be. That
obviously means following BSAC regs, but it also means looking
outside the box as to what's going on around you. Remember
BSAC are supposed to be producing independent free-thinking
Instructors.
HSE say you must have. True that would be for pro BSAC/PADI
etc, but if they do, isnt it prudent to wonder why and question
your own standards at the same time?

Yes this thread has evolved, but the inherent message is the
same. As part of your risk assessment, is your kit
optimised and the best it can be for the circumstances you are
going to use it?

If I have ratio of 2:1 (The absolute max I would entertain in
UK cold waters BTW), you get a FF on BOTH students how are you
going to cope?

True story. Experinced senior Instructor/1st Class, diving at
Stoney with 2x students. He on Apex, they on Spiros.
20m and one student FF. Goes onto Octo. Within seconds 2nd
student goes FF and is given primary. Inst and students now
heading for the surface with Instructor doing an ESA.
Everybody ok and he got away with it, but looking at it in
hindsight.
1) Spiros are not sealed.
2) Pony would have given him redundancy (reg each).

So lets go back to the original post. Auto Air would have got
this guy out of a jam by being a third reg - agreed. Is it the
best option? Well IMO no, an independnt source would be far
better.

What if he had Auto air and no octopus? He would be in the
BSAC incident report. There is no way he could have donated
his primary, then his Auto Air, then tried an ESA without major
task loading, fumbling and two stressed and panicking students.

Remember, not anti auto-air, anti-auto air as an integral part
of your bailout plan.

Rgds
TerryH

[David J Smith]

:=:=
:=:=Err sorry, cold (4-6 degrees?) at Stoney and you didnt have a
:=:=redundant air source? Or did your main, octo & pony fail?
:=:=
:=None of my equipment failed! My buddy had the falure of both his Main & Octopus.
:=:=
:=:=If you want to argue that the Auto Air is (IYO) yet another
:=:=back-up (whether I like it or not) fine, but dont try and
:=:=justify it instead of a proper redundant source.
:=:=
:=Now you want to change the subject to a redundant air source, which is a different piece of equipment, and not the thread we were discussing, plus it is not a requirement to dive in cold water which you seem to imply.:=

Sorry Gordon, but your example changed the thread, not me.

:=There is a requirement for an Alternate Air source and this comes in several guises.
:=:=
:=:=You must be a non-pro Instructor anyway as HSE wouldnt exactly
:=:=be chuffed without a decent (independent backup).
:=:=
:=Yes I am a so called Non-Pro Instuctor.
:=I am a BSAC, OWI Instructor, of which there are several thousand all teaching to a set standard, having dedicated much of their spare time, effort & money to achieve the required standard, and without thought of reward.
:=:=

??????? I am also a volunteer BSAC OWI, put in more than some,
less than others. WHO CARES! Bottom line here is that YOU/ME
as an Instructor should be as safe as you possibly can be. That
obviously means following BSAC regs, but it also means looking
outside the box as to what's going on around you. Remember
BSAC are supposed to be producing independent free-thinking
Instructors.
HSE say you must have. True that would be for pro BSAC/PADI
etc, but if they do, isnt it prudent to wonder why and question
your own standards at the same time?

Yes this thread has evolved, but the inherent message is the
same. As part of your risk assessment, is your kit
optimised and the best it can be for the circumstances you are
going to use it?

If I have ratio of 2:1 (The absolute max I would entertain in
UK cold waters BTW), you get a FF on BOTH students how are you
going to cope?

True story. Experinced senior Instructor/1st Class, diving at
Stoney with 2x students. He on Apex, they on Spiros.
20m and one student FF. Goes onto Octo. Within seconds 2nd
student goes FF and is given primary. Inst and students now
heading for the surface with Instructor doing an ESA.
Everybody ok and he got away with it, but looking at it in
hindsight.

1) Spiros are not sealed.
2) Pony would have given him redundancy (reg each).

So lets go back to the original post. Auto Air would have got
this guy out of a jam by being a third reg - agreed. Is it the
best option? Well IMO no, an independnt source would be far
better.

What if he had Auto air and no octopus? He would be in the
BSAC incident report. There is no way he could have donated
his primary, then his Auto Air, then tried an ESA without major
task loading, fumbling and two stressed and panicking students.

Remember, not anti auto-air, anti-auto air as an integral part
of your bailout plan.

Rgds
TerryH



Could he not have briefed for his students, prior to the dive to carry out the ascent using the(ir) free-flowing regulator ??

As having three people in a very small radius with two free flowing regulators must have been very bubbly and a little disorientating for them, better with one in their mouth.

[terryh]

Could he not have briefed for his students, prior to the dive to carry out the ascent using the(ir) free-flowing regulator ??


Hmm, not sure that would have made a difference. We might
practice FF in the safety of the pool, but to expect two
students (remember they are still learning) to manage a
double FF in these circumstances?

As having three people in a very small radius with two free flowing regulators must have been very bubbly and a little disorientating for them, better with one in their mouth.


Agreed, but with one variation. Even if we let the bad planning
issue go, I would have thought a better bailout would be to
hand off the Octo/Primary and for the Inst to use the FF reg.
That's got to be better than an ESA.

Still we are all warm and toasty, he was at 20m in the middle
of a cluster****. Who knows what you or I would have done?

Correction, I know what I would have done as I still do it!
Only dive on sealed Apex and use pony when going below 10m
and/or you go to 2:1 ratio.

TerryH

[David J Smith]

:=
:=Could he not have briefed for his students, prior to the dive to carry out the ascent using the(ir) free-flowing regulator ??
:=

Hmm, not sure that would have made a difference. We might
practice FF in the safety of the pool, but to expect two
students (remember they are still learning) to manage a
double FF in these circumstances?

I know what 'student' means, but isn't the reason why we practice the drill so that they can carry it out, and as it is part of the OD course it should (!) be fresh in their minds.
as opposed to someone who learned a skill but has been fortunate enough to not need it, the result of which is they probably haven't practiced, as I would suggest the majority of people don't once qualified.

As having three people in a very small radius with two free flowing regulators must have been very bubbly and a little disorientating for them, better with one in their mouth.
:=

Agreed, but with one variation. Even if we let the bad planning
issue go, I would have thought a better bailout would be to
hand off the Octo/Primary and for the Inst to use the FF reg.
That's got to be better than an ESA.

Still we are all warm and toasty, he was at 20m in the middle
of a cluster****. Who knows what you or I would have done?

Correction, I know what I would have done as I still do it!
Only dive on sealed Apex and use pony when going below 10m
and/or you go to 2:1 ratio.

I know what I would do also, as I mentioned in my previous post I had a very similar incident last week, which is why i felt I could offer my two pence worth. We had briefed the problems of cold water diving and the risk of free flow. In fact we were diving at the National Diving Centre in Chepstow where they even help by writing it on the large briefing board that they have. I was teaching a SD student, who had only completed a couple of dives since his OD course and he managed magnificantly, twice on the same day. The first time he breathed from his reg most, if not all of the way up and the second time he breathed from my Octopus because I made him take it, A case of once bitten twice not going to risk it.


I am not suggesting that all students are the same and you are correct that some wouldn't cope, but then how many are actually going to be put in the position that both regs from two seperate sets ff within 'seconds'

That said my bloke was using two different sets of kits, two different regulators, the second were both Apeks ! How unlucky was he!
Needless to say no one will dive with incident pit peter !

I know this has gone slightly (!) adrift from the post of the originator, but perhaps we should start a thread of, a funny thing happened to me on the way to 20m..........

There is a lot to be learned from the experiences of others and I know one of the pages I pay particular attention to in DIVE is the "It happened to me"

[Philip Smith]

:=:=If you want to argue that the Auto Air is (IYO) yet another
:=:=back-up (whether I like it or not) fine, but dont try and
:=:=justify it instead of a proper redundant source.

Of course, an auto air could be fed from a redundant air source. Not my preference, but possible.

What if he had Auto air and no octopus? He would be in the
BSAC incident report.

Should the incident not have been reported anyway?

Philip Smith

[terryh]

There is a lot to be learned from the experiences of others and I know one of the pages I pay particular attention to in DIVE is the "It happened to me"


Yep, and the best one was where somebody pointed out what many
of us have been screaming at the page for years.
Wrong final conclusion.
You know the sort of thing ......
"We survived a dive in a force 8" - Conclusion = boat skills were A1.
Real conclusion = check the weather forecast!

TerryH

[terryh]

:=What if he had Auto air and no octopus? He would be in the
:=BSAC incident report.

Should the incident not have been reported anyway?


Possibly, but it was just before my time (as a club Officer)
and was told by the Inst concerned a good 18 months later.

TerryH