View Full Version : SDCs and approuval.
jens hucke
14-01-2004, 15:35
Just a quick question.
Most SDCs ( detailed syllabus on the bsac web site) such as Search and Recovery specify that instructors must at least have done the course.
For Advanced Diving Techniques the following is published:
Chief Instructor to be a BSAC Open Water Instructor + Advanced Diver. Other Instructors to be Club Instructors who are also Advanced Divers.
So can the course be run even by an AD/OWI how hasn't done the course as such, but has the relevant experience, or has it just been forgotten among the rewrites?
If anyone has the full SDC instructor's pack relevant to ADT, maybe they can look it up for me.
thanks
jens
Dave Woodward
14-01-2004, 16:47
Jens,
This is on the instructor notes published on the BSAC site :
The course must be led by an instructor holding a minimum qualification of Open Water Instructor. Other staff instructors must hold a minimum qualification of Club Instructor. All instructors must be Advanced Divers and hold the Advanced Diving Techniques course logbook certificate.
They should also have practical experience of using the
equipment and techniques covered during the course during their normal diving activities.
A minimum ratio of one Instructor to three students is required.
I think it is just the extra line that says they must all have doen the course.
I suppose if it is on the web it should be the latest dated March 2001
Dave
Just a quick question.
Most SDCs ( detailed syllabus on the bsac web site) such as Search and Recovery specify that instructors must at least have done the course.
For Advanced Diving Techniques the following is published:
Chief Instructor to be a BSAC Open Water Instructor + Advanced Diver. Other Instructors to be Club Instructors who are also Advanced Divers.
So can the course be run even by an AD/OWI how hasn't done the course as such, but has the relevant experience, or has it just been forgotten among the rewrites?
If anyone has the full SDC instructor's pack relevant to ADT, maybe they can look it up for me.
thanks
jens
Jens,
This is on the instructor notes published on the BSAC site :
All instructors must be Advanced Divers and hold the Advanced Diving Techniques course logbook certificate.
Ah, but what if they have the equivilent sticker?
EG. PADI DM gets a PRM sticker, so when he becomes an NQI does
that mean he can or cant run a PRM SDC?
He hasnt actually attended the PRM course, has he?
TerryH
jens hucke
15-01-2004, 15:19
Cheers for that.
Just goes to show... I looked under Technical Services, then SDC syllabus, and ended up looking at a version dated 09/02 which is also on line, rather than the full version on the Instructor's resources page. The 09/02 syllabus doesn't mention the previous attendance requirement for instructors. I guess it is just an oversight. Maybe someone at HQ can update the file at some stage?
Thanks again
jens
Jens,
This is on the instructor notes published on the BSAC site :
The course must be led by an instructor holding a minimum qualification of Open Water Instructor. Other staff instructors must hold a minimum qualification of Club Instructor. All instructors must be Advanced Divers and hold the Advanced Diving Techniques course logbook certificate.
They should also have practical experience of using the
equipment and techniques covered during the course during their normal diving activities.
A minimum ratio of one Instructor to three students is required.
I think it is just the extra line that says they must all have doen the course.
I suppose if it is on the web it should be the latest dated March 2001
David Walker
16-01-2004, 01:19
Just goes to show... I looked under Technical Services, then SDC syllabus, and ended up looking at a version dated 09/02 which is also on line, rather than the full version on the Instructor's resources page. The 09/02 syllabus doesn't mention the previous attendance requirement for instructors. I guess it is just an oversight. Maybe someone at HQ can update the file at some stage?
Theres actually quite a lot of bits like that, where two documents about the same thing aren't linked. I spent ages looking for the bit under the Dive Leader info that said what SDCs were allowable as dives from the qualification, and all over the main Dive Leader section I couldn't find anything, and eventually coming right out and going back in a different way I found it.
The whole structure of the site isn't really helpful in finding things like that, but it'd be a hell of an overhaul to get it all into some reasonably browsable form.
That said, some of the SDCs / ITS things still link to the 2003 POE.
David
John Williams
23-01-2004, 18:36
Ah, but what if they have the equivilent sticker?
EG. PADI DM gets a PRM sticker, so when he becomes an NQI does
that mean he can or cant run a PRM SDC?
He hasnt actually attended the PRM course, has he?
TerryH
Quite correct..or it should be!
The BSAC has a culture of learning and mentoring by example.
Any NQI worth his/her ticket would want to at least observe on a course before teaching it...just to make sure that they had understood the Instructor Notes properly and had an opportunity to engage in the post-course Instructor debreif to clear up any questins.
They don't need to have done it as a student, nor do they need the ticket in their book...but they do need to have been introduced to the subject by someone familiar with it beforte they go off to teach it alone and without support.
John
:=Ah, but what if they have the equivilent sticker?
:=
:=EG. PADI DM gets a PRM sticker, so when he becomes an NQI does
:=that mean he can or cant run a PRM SDC?
:=He hasnt actually attended the PRM course, has he?
:=
:=TerryH
Quite correct..or it should be!
The BSAC has a culture of learning and mentoring by example.
Any NQI worth his/her ticket would want to at least observe on a course before teaching it...just to make sure that they had understood the Instructor Notes properly and had an opportunity to engage in the post-course Instructor debreif to clear up any questins.
They don't need to have done it as a student, nor do they need the ticket in their book...but they do need to have been introduced to the subject by someone familiar with it beforte they go off to teach it alone and without support.
Err not really John. Although your argument sounds logical it
does suffer from a basic flaw.
If I have an equivilent SDC ticket, then BSAC have deemed I am
equal to or better than that grade. So I have completed all the
skills/assessments required.
So my logic says I have done what's required of the SDC (albeit
from another agency).
My Instructor status is also not in doubt (NQI status).
Doesnt that mean all I need to do is follow a syllabus?
After all, did I have to sit through Club/Sport & the new
Ocean/Sport prior to teaching it?
Or was it simply accepted that as an Instructor, I have the
ability to read a manual and put into practice skills and
experience that I already have?
Put simply, if you have ANY conditions attached to non BSAC
SDC equivilents, then IMO it's NOT a true equivilent and would
IMO give the impression that it's seen (by BSAC) as inferior to
it's own.
TerryH
John Williams
24-01-2004, 18:25
"Equivalence" does not mean "the same".
Indeed in some cases the BSAC equivalence allows for the same as - but with improvements that give exemptions from higher training.
In some cases the lack of something is highlighted and a few extra BSAC bits can be added to gain a higher BSAC equivalence.
BSAC allow for weaknesses in one area to be offset by strengths in another. Remember the Borderline being offset by a Merit concept?
Howver the sensible NQI will sit through a BSAC course to familiarise him/herself with the differences. Then they will be aware of the shortfall in their "equivalent qualification" so that they can be brought up to snuff.
Equally they should be aware of any "extras" in their "equivalent qualification" so that should the timetable/syllabus be under pressure they can concentrate on what MUST be there rather than what COULD. Remember that from your ITC?
I accept equivalence and allow those with it to work at that level. I allow them to train for the next higher BSAC level and then consider them to be fully BSAC trained to their new level. I do not allow NQIs to train BSAC courses that they are not familiar with - nbot without support from someone who is more highly qualified or familiar anyway.
As to the new DTP...the skills were not different - they were just presented in a different order. I also reviewed the syllabus with my team so that we all understood where we were coming from before we embarked on a new programme. I have many NQIs qualified to a higher level that CI/OWI whose experience was brought into that debate. Any remaining questions were raised at Regional and ITS Instructor Level and resolved BEFORE anyone not fully conversant with BSAC methodology was allowed to teach it unsupported.
John
As to the new DTP...the skills were not different - they were just presented in a different order.:=
I also reviewed the syllabus with my team so that we all understood where we were coming from before we embarked on a new programme. I have many NQIs qualified to a higher level that CI/OWI whose experience was brought into that debate. Any remaining questions were raised at Regional and ITS Instructor Level and resolved BEFORE anyone not fully conversant with BSAC methodology was allowed to teach it unsupported.
Shame on you John. You mean you did lesson plans from the
syllabus, even though you had never done the course!!!!
Err isnt that exactly the same as an RYA boathandler/BSAC NQI
reading the BSAC syllabus for the first time and planning the
lesson?
After all didnt you say "the skills were not different - they
were just presented in a different order".
As for BSAC methodology, dont you think a BSAC NQI might know
that by now?
Sorry, but while I fully appreciate that NQI's who have NOT got
the relevant SDC need to attend one first. I do not think that
it is neccessary if you have the equivilent from another agency.
After all the skill is already there. All that's needed is to
put it in the BSAC order and that takes your average NQI an
hour tops going over the syllabus.
TerryH
John Williams
26-01-2004, 09:40
Thanks for correcting the spelling of "Approuval" ...it was beginning to get to me!
I guess that I just think that if the BSAC offers a free service to it's NQI's (as in observing on an SDC before you teach it) then it seems churlish to turn that opportunity down.
This is one of the key responsibilities of the Coaching Scheme - their goals are to help branches to develop their own instructors until they can operate all SDCs independently of support.
Of, course if those developed instructors would like to support the region in developing others then their help would be greatly appreciated.
If a branch has not yet got the capability to run courses for it's own members then the Region also supports them by offering a range of SDCs open to all members ...and these events need staffing (offers of help greatly appreciated here too - and it keeps your own skills smack up-to-date as well as providing constructive discussions about the performance of all the NQIs in order to help them improve their own standards)
Not to mention that Regional Courses are a great source of new contacts, new ideas and new friends...as well as being really good craik!
Why miss out on such a great opportunity?
John
Thanks for correcting the spelling of "Approuval" ...it was beginning to get to me!
I guess that I just think that if the BSAC offers a free service to it's NQI's (as in observing on an SDC before you teach it) then it seems churlish to turn that opportunity down.
This is one of the key responsibilities of the Coaching Scheme - their goals are to help branches to develop their own instructors until they can operate all SDCs independently of support.
Of, course if those developed instructors would like to support the region in developing others then their help would be greatly appreciated.
If a branch has not yet got the capability to run courses for it's own members then the Region also supports them by offering a range of SDCs open to all members ...and these events need staffing (offers of help greatly appreciated here too - and it keeps your own skills smack up-to-date as well as providing constructive discussions about the performance of all the NQIs in order to help them improve their own standards)
Not to mention that Regional Courses are a great source of new contacts, new ideas and new friends...as well as being really good craik!
Why miss out on such a great opportunity?
Sorry, you are doing it again John. You are offering a free
service to Instructors who are already trained in PRM. After
all they have the sticker that says so!
The way I look at it, is that if a PADI DM equivilent to BSAC
PRM sticker is NOT sufficient to be able to teach PRM without
attending one first, then the sticker is NOT valid and the
whole scheme is suspect.
Look at our situation.
We are currently going through training for 20x Ocean Divers,
8x Sport Divers and 6x DL. Plus we are running O2, Nx & PRM
SDC's all before Easter 2004, which is our training cut-off
date (Training club finishes - Dive club begins).
We have three NQI's who have PRM by virtue of there PADI DM
status. If all three went and observed on one of your SDC's
6-9x qualfying dives would be lost on that day. Yet all three
are exprienced BSAC Adv/NQI's with a good diving/teaching
history and have PADI certs far in excess of whats required at
PRM level.
IMO all thats needed is a written syllabus of PRM so the skills
Instructors already have, can be put in BSAC order.
TerryH
"Equivalence" does not mean "the same".
Since when?
equivalent adj equal in value, power or meaning, etc
equal adj 1 the same in size, amount or value, etc
Dave
John Williams
27-01-2004, 17:10
...... if a PADI DM equivilent to BSAC
PRM sticker is NOT sufficient to be able to teach PRM without
attending one first, then the sticker is NOT valid and the
whole scheme is suspect.
The EQUIVALENCE or SALT scheme was never intended to be anything other than a statemet that you are ready to commence training to the next higher level within the BSAC.
It says NOTHING about teaching.
It NEVER set out to say. Go get another qualification, with another agency, and then come back here and teach those skills/lessons to our members without further training.
The idea was that we would not set people back to square one (cos that's silly) - BUT (and it's a big BUT) that does NOT mean that other qualifications are considered to be the SAME.
They are considered to be so similar that the next higher BSAC course would effectively iron out the differences and make the award of the NEXT badge the SAME.
However - if you want to be able to teach to the EQUIVALENT level to which you have been taught (by another agency) please feel welcome with open arms. We will undertake to make your EQUIVALENT qualification exactly the same (or even better by acknlowledging where your training was to a higher standard whilst making sure that everything you teach is at least up to our standards at this level) ....for FREE!
Furthermore, if you remain enthusiastic we would be delighted to harness that enthusiasm at every level by ensuring that when you teach for the BSAC (at any level) it does not cost you a penny to do so!)
What's your problem with that deal Terry?
look up "equivalent" and "same" or "equal" in the dictionary and you will see a subtle difference.
The BSAC is not putting barriers in the way. It is ensuring consistency and NAtional Standards...and it is doing so without cost to new members with "equivalant" qualifications.
John
PS
I've tried hard to make you realise where the BSAC is coming from on this one. If you don't want to listen than I'll not perpetuate this debate any longer. It's not that "I have spoken and therefore am correct". It is simply that you are not listening and therefore further debate is pointless.
Sorry John, but IMO you are seriously wrong.
Lets get rid of one inaccuaracy from the start. The topic is
most definatly NOT SALT. Divers (NB: Divers) who come from
other agencies, dont have the full BSAC picture and depending
on grade will have to do some remedial work, even if it's just
Intro to BSAC and a bit on the 88's.
We both agree that SALT is an entry level for the next grade.
No argument and no discussion needed, but that is NOT the
thread.
An SDC is a Skill Development Course. It is a stand alone
qualification with it's own individual certification.
Technical sheet A5
"Members who have studied certain subjects through other diver training courses, evening classes or hold professional qualifications may be eligible to apply for a BSAC Skill Development Course Alternative Training Certificate. This acknowledges that their qualification/training meets the requirements of the equivalent BSAC Skill Development Course."
Note it says "meets". So the skills involved are the same as
(or even exceed) those required for the BSAC SDC.
It is trully the "equivilent" and not a paper exercise.
So please tell me based on that basic information, why you think
that a BSAC NQI who has done BSAC Sport, DL, Adv (Including -
O2, DPM, BH, Adv Nx, ADT) and has awarded BSAC certifications
going into 3 figures. Cannot run a PRM SDC without attending a
BSAC one first simply, because his PADI DM equivilent is seen as being inferior?
TerryH
John Williams
29-01-2004, 16:24
Not inferior...different.
And without attending the relevant BSAC s/he will not understand those differences.
I never said that you COULD NOT teach these courses...just that you SHOULD attend them before attempting to teach them.
If you are Ocean Yachtmaster then your qualification clearly (and hugely) exceeds CPF. However ...how do you know what to miss out if you don't attend the SDC for yourself (as an observer, as a member of the instructional team ...and fully expensed).
When the notes say..."discuss tides. including the rule of twelfths" the OY probably wont know what 1/12ths are. S/he will be able to discourse about tides for several days without even mentioning 1/12ths.
How does s/he know what to exclude from a brief set of notes aimed at REMINDING the instructor what they saw on the last course they attended?
John
Not inferior...different.
And without attending the relevant BSAC s/he will not understand those differences.
How come? They are after all BSAC divers/Instructors and have a
full grounding in the relevant topics. Might not have been the
same order , but ......
I never said that you COULD NOT teach these courses...just that you SHOULD attend them before attempting to teach them.
If you are Ocean Yachtmaster then your qualification clearly (and hugely) exceeds CPF. However ...how do you know what to miss out if you don't attend the SDC for yourself (as an observer, as a member of the instructional team ...and fully expensed).:=
When the notes say..."discuss tides. including the rule of twelfths" the OY probably wont know what 1/12ths are. S/he will be able to discourse about tides for several days without even mentioning 1/12ths.
How does s/he know what to exclude from a brief set of notes aimed at REMINDING the instructor what they saw on the last course they attended?
So we now agree that it is entirely possible to run an SDC
without first attending, as long as you have the equivilent
grade.
There is no doubt an Ocean Yachtmaster/BSAC NQI certainly has
both the inteligence and abilty to put together an SDC. Based
on your last comment the only thing that is stopping them is
not having a decent set of notes/written syllabus.
So it seems all we need is better course notes!
TerryH
John Williams
30-01-2004, 16:55
....and an ability to recognise a golden (free) opportunity when one sees it.
Expecting to teach a different syllabus without seeing it (when seeing it is for free) is simply arrogance gone rampant.
IMHO
John
....and an ability to recognise a golden (free) opportunity when one sees it.
Expecting to teach a different syllabus without seeing it (when seeing it is for free) is simply arrogance gone rampant.
IMHO
So how many courses and syllabi have you done cold Jonn?
Fact: These are BSAC NQI's.
Fact: They have the relevant skills equal to or in excess of
those required for the particular SDC.
What smacks of arrogance is the assumption that BSAC NQI's are
not intelligent enough to read a BSAC list/order and create
there own lesson plans.
Twice you mention "free". Correction it's not!
It will take one day or two to attend with all the expenses
neccesary. Time that could quite easily be spent actually
running the course for real.
Honestly John, BSAC is not the pinnicle of diving. It is one
agency amongst a miriad of others. Skill is skill and it makes
not one jot of difference if I learnt it with BSAC, PADI or the
Brownies. If skills X, Y & Z are required for a particular SDC
I DO NOT need BSAC to tell me again how to perform them. All I
need is BSAC to tell me what order they would like me to
present them.
Of course we may have minor diffrences. I might say 14:2 in
PADI mode, when I should be doing 15:2 BSAC mode. Again I dont
need to relearn AV, nor do I need to attend an SDC so I can
relearn how to count the BSAC way, just need to read a page
which says BSAC do 15:2.
TerryH
I must be sickening for something in this 30C heat since I agree with Terry for once.
Dave
I must be sickening for something in this 30C heat since I agree with Terry for once.
At least you have the excuse of the temprature!
I really don't see what this arguement is about. Does someone trained outside of the club have the knowledge require by the SDC? Yes otherwise they would would not have the equivalence sticker. Does the person have the ability to teach? Yes or they would not have an NQI. Does the person have the brain to read the sylabus to figure out what and how to teach it? I hope so.
Pete
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