View Full Version : Dive Leader Qualifying Dives
Mark Weeks
02-01-2004, 14:03
Just a quick query,
Under the new Dive Leader course there are a number of qualifying dives that need to be completed (e.g. 6 boat dies, 10 dives greater than 25m etc) before the qaulification can be awarded. I am under the impression that you cannot class a dive to 30m on a RIB as both a boat dive and a dive greater than 25m, and that each of the qualifying dives must be separate; I am correct in thinking this ?
Cheers
Mark
Just a quick query,
Under the new Dive Leader course there are a number of qualifying dives that need to be completed (e.g. 6 boat dies, 10 dives greater than 25m etc) before the qaulification can be awarded. I am under the impression that you cannot class a dive to 30m on a RIB as both a boat dive and a dive greater than 25m, and that each of the qualifying dives must be separate; I am correct in thinking this ?
Sounds right to me. One dive per box. Dont forget that the page
is wrong and you need to do 8 not 6 Dive leading dives.
You need to get your students to change the page at the start
of the course.
You can download replacement pages at the very bottom of this
page.
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/irc/dtpcor.shtml" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/irc/dtpcor.shtml</a>
TerryH
Mike Halligan
02-01-2004, 19:08
Sounds right to me. One dive per box. Dont forget that the page
is wrong and you need to do 8 not 6 Dive leading dives.
You need to get your students to change the page at the start
of the course.
Hi, Terry,
It sounded right to me as well, until I read the course rubrik (p219) in the Instructor Manual. There (at top RHS) it says "Of the 20 dives:
* at least 6 should be carried out from boats
* on at least 8 the student should act as leader
* at least 10 should show depth experience greater than 25m."
So I guess we have to make up our minds as DO/TO/Instructor teams where the 4 overlapping dives might be allowed.
The same rubrik does state (earlier on p219) that a minimum of 20 dives and 600 mins underwater since qualifying as SD are required, so a frank examination of the logbook before the student embarks on DL training might reveal how much, if anything, can be accepted and signed at that point. Here, I would counsel extreme caution and reference to the DO before signature if in any doubt at all.
Speaking personally, as OWI and as TO, I would not wish to sign off (or see signed off) more than two criteria in a single dive and I wouldn't combine where there has been an extension of skill (be that new type of boat, new site for demonstrating leadership or increased depth). I might be content to accept that two conditions can be signed as met where the combination of boat, site and depth are well known to the student. However, I question the value in boring students to death in this way and I would expect that every such instance will attract the scrutiny of the DO.
Plenty of room for winter argument in the pub here, isn't there? I'm off out the country until March, so good luck.
Happy New Year
Mike ;-)
Just a quick query,
Under the new Dive Leader course there are a number of qualifying dives that need to be completed (e.g. 6 boat dies, 10 dives greater than 25m etc) before the qaulification can be awarded. I am under the impression that you cannot class a dive to 30m on a RIB as both a boat dive and a dive greater than 25m, and that each of the qualifying dives must be separate; I am correct in thinking this ?
If a dive is 30m from a boat , then it is both a boat dive and a dive greater than 25m. There is no requirement for them to be classed separately.
Dave
It sounded right to me as well, until I read the course rubrik (p219) in the Instructor Manual. There (at top RHS) it says "Of the 20 dives:
* at least 6 should be carried out from boats
* on at least 8 the student should act as leader
* at least 10 should show depth experience greater than 25m."
So I guess we have to make up our minds as DO/TO/Instructor teams where the 4 overlapping dives might be allowed.
The person needs to do a minimum of 20 dives regardless. If the 1st 10 dives are > 25m and the trainee has acted as leader on 8 of them and 6 of them were from a boat, then these predicates are met in just 10 dives.
Speaking personally, as OWI and as TO, I would not wish to sign off (or see signed off) more than two criteria in a single dive and I wouldn't combine where there has been an extension of skill (be that new type of boat, new site for demonstrating leadership or increased depth).
Why not? You are providing a BSAC qualification, not your own. It is incumbent on an instructor/DO to qualify under BSACs terms rather than own. Does it state anywhere that the dives have to be at a time other when there has been an extension of skill?
Plenty of room for winter argument in the pub here, isn't there? I'm off out the country until March, so good luck.
Not really. Either a qualification is issued as directed bu BSAC or by a DOs own personal preferences
Dave
Not really. Either a qualification is issued as directed bu BSAC or by a DOs own personal preferences
Sigh ....
Not this one again.......
You are right that BSAC has set the benchmark and we all follow
it. So a DO MUST sign-up an individual, but.....
The DO also has a duty of care to ensure the safety of the other
club members (and the diver in question). Even if your diver
jumps through all the hoops there is nothing in the rules that
says he actually gets to go diving at that level.
It's very easy to subtly arrange it so that the deeper stuff is
unavailable, until enough quality dives are done and yes that
does mean the equivient of one dive per box.
After all, why the rush?
TerryH
:=
:=Not really. Either a qualification is issued as directed bu BSAC or by a DOs own personal preferences
:=
Sigh ....
Not this one again.......
You are right that BSAC has set the benchmark and we all follow
So why suggest that it is ok to do otherwise?
It's very easy to subtly arrange it so that the deeper stuff is
unavailable, until enough quality dives are done and yes that
does mean the equivient of one dive per box.
Riggghhht...so it is ok for branches to rewrite the diver training programme and define their own standards. Perhaps branches should next start creating their own diving grades too and at least be open about it
After all, why the rush?
Simple. The diver is undertaking training under the programme defined by BSAC not by the branch. There is no justification whatsoever for not awarding the qualification when the person has reached the requirements that are defined.
Seems a pretty reasonable idea to me...pretty much as one would expect when doing any qualification , diving or otherwise. Wouldn't the driving test be so much more fun , for example, if the examiners were allowed to define their own individual requirememts for what should be defined as a pass and wouldn't A levels be much more of a giggle if the individual markers were allowed to set their own standards for what marks should be awarded to a paper
Dave
Sigh ....
Not this one again.......
Sorry Terry I am bemused why you would hold back signing multiple boxes. This is an experience record, if they dive 25m+ 10 times from boats acting as dive leader they have the experience. What am I missing?
You are right that BSAC has set the benchmark and we all follow
it. So a DO MUST sign-up an individual, but.....
The DO also has a duty of care to ensure the safety of the other
club members (and the diver in question). Even if your diver
jumps through all the hoops there is nothing in the rules that
says he actually gets to go diving at that level.
If your training in branch then a DO or marshal will have approved this guy leading dives and diving >25m on 6 occassions. If the DO is not happy to allow this guy to act as a DL why is he letting him dive like one?
If someone has trained elsewhere then the DO is within his rights to disallow diving until such times that skills can be assessed as suitable for branch diving. I would think that would take a couple dives tops.
It's very easy to subtly arrange it so that the deeper stuff is
unavailable, until enough quality dives are done and yes that
does mean the equivient of one dive per box.
If the guy really should not have a DL ticket then it is very likely that he is going to find it difficult to get DO/marshal approval or even a buddy for deeper dives. Sure he can go outside the branch for deeper dives, if he can find a buddy, but he can do that as a Sport Diver anyway. We actually find this peer approval most effective.
After all, why the rush?
Well exactly. Why start someone on DL training before they are ready.
Regards
MattS
Mike Halligan
03-01-2004, 14:04
:=Speaking personally, as OWI and as TO, I would not wish to sign off (or see signed off) more than two criteria in a single dive and I wouldn't combine where there has been an extension of skill (be that new type of boat, new site for demonstrating leadership or increased depth).
Why not? You are providing a BSAC qualification, not your own. It is incumbent on an instructor/DO to qualify under BSACs terms rather than own. Does it state anywhere that the dives have to be at a time other when there has been an extension of skill?
Dave,
Because, if there isn't sufficient experience outwith the period during which DL is being actively taught, then I _personally_ would not wish to overtax the student and have them deal with more than one of the following at the same time -
a new type of boat (i.e. less than 2 dives from that type), leading on an unfamiliar site (i.e. been there < twice before) or
reaching a depth they'd not been to twice before.
If there has been sufficient experience at SD level before embarking on the DL course, none of this will arise, i.e. if the student has heeded advice always given in my experience (and now always given by me) to go and enjoy diving for a while as SD before taking on DL.
No-one is suggesting that the conditions should be met prior to starting the DL course. However, if _in_my_branch_ the boat and depth criteria are not fully met inside 12 months from qualifying at SD, then there is something disingenuous in that diver approaching the branch for DL tuition. Such is the basis of my answer to Terry's question. The circumstances of divers learning to dive _in_the_branch_I_attend_ will result in them needing only to demonstrate a sufficiency of leadership after the relevant theory and practical lessons. There will be adequate opportunity for those 8 dives in a single season, so long as DO, TO, Instructors and DLs/ADs are attentive to the needs of students who in turn make their needs clear.
I believe I am bound to satisfy myself that a trainee has met the criteria set down by the BSAC (no more, no less) and then to recommend to my DO that they be awarded the qualification. For you to suggest I should do otherwise is your prerogative, but to suggest that I actually do otherwise is offensive.
Mike
Andy Nye
03-01-2004, 19:19
Should really be ALL D/L training dives carried out in SALT water,,, IMHO.
Saves on the big D/L muddy Puddle divers coming to the coast and making the incident numbers rise.
Andy
andy botten
03-01-2004, 19:28
IMHO the short answer is "yes!"
From previous posts; we are agreed; the leading must be done after the D/L demonstration dive.
On p219 it does say of the 5 conditions, wall, low vis, etc. must be done on seperate dives. It is grey on the other qualifying dives.
The key phrase is "minimum of 20 dives" since qualifying as a Sports diver.
It is up to the DO to pick which dives he/she considers appropriate.
30m off a boat could have two ticks logged in one dive.
However, under the minimum rule I am happy to only sign-off one item. Especially as in the morning will be the 30+ dive and the afternoon will be the 15m drift. Both from the same boat. The result is the same, the student gets the signature in both boxes. Otherwise, the student could press for a third signature for the afternoon boat dive.
Likewise; I would not sign-off all the hardboat dives as the result of a weeks liveaboard holiday. It does not meet the criteria of "variety of diving conditions in the branch." See above.
David Walker
03-01-2004, 21:28
Should really be ALL D/L training dives carried out in SALT water,,, IMHO.
Saves on the big D/L muddy Puddle divers coming to the coast and making the incident numbers rise.
Ummm - I have to disagree there!
Thats all nice for people who live near the coast, but being a Uni club based near Coventry we can't afford to get to the coast and dive every weekend, nor would we have the time or be able to organise it - if we had to do that then our membership would suffer.
We effectively close down over the summer, and would likely waste even more money every weekend just to find out we can't dive due to weather over the winter months.
Also, if we're paying ?30 a day for boat diving, do we really want to be doing training, or just enjoying the diving? On the other hand, we could spend ?6 to get into Stoney, have a full day to do training dives, which we can do all year round, and at the same time as the more basic training, saving on transport costs.
In any case, there is salt water which is just as sheltered as inland sites, and so they would have just the same potential problems dealing with strong currents, tides, planning, depth or whatever.
Its all very nice having ideals, but unless they're realistic and affordable, particularly for Uni clubs with students who don't have much money, then it can only be detrimental to the sport. Apart from anything else, it would mean that we would never get any instructors through if we couldn't get people to the coast to finish Dive Leader. You think thats a good thing?
And what about people who become Dive Leader just so that they can become an instructor, but in their pleasure diving never want to go beyond the Sports Diver limits? Why would they spend many times more to get the qualification which is of no more benefit to them than doing it in inland sheltered sites?
Sorry, but you seem to have a selfish view of training - you might have good access to the coast, you may be able to train in the summer, you may have enough instructors to be at the coast for DLs and in Stoney for OD/SD at the same time, and you may be able to afford many days of expensive diving and travelling, but not everyone can, or simply don't want to. Of course we don't want incidents, but doing all the training in the sea would make no difference - maybe have one or two dives in the sea, or just as one of the conditions a DL must have experienced, but certainly not all of the dives.
David
Riggghhht...so it is ok for branches to rewrite the diver training programme and define their own standards. Perhaps branches should next start creating their own diving grades too and at least be open about it
Your interpretation, not mine.
It is NOT ok to rewrite any part of the syllabus, but it is
perfectly ok for a branch to make ANY stipulations or rules
they like after the course is completed.
So I cant refuse to sign anybody up, as long as they have done
what's required, but I can (with the authority of the branch & constitution) stipulate that after Dive Leader they do 1000x 6m
dives with a a tea-cosy on their head before there allowed to
use the grade.
The point here is that while the diver grade itself should be
the same standard across the board. Each branches level of
diving may vary from pretty reserved to extreme. We have a duty
of care to ensure that the individual diver is up to the standard required for that branch.
Diver grade alone is NOT sufficient. So clubs have developed
there own ways of control.
You might not like the way we do it, but we are absolutly
within standards.
TerryH
"For you to suggest I should do otherwise is your prerogative, but to suggest that I actually do otherwise is offensive. "
With respect, it was you who wrote
"Speaking personally, as OWI and as TO, I would not wish to sign off (or see signed off) more than two criteria in a single dive and I wouldn't combine where there has been an extension of skill (be that new type of boat, new site for demonstrating leadership or increased depth)."
Can you tell me where it explicitly states that no more than 2 criteria can be covered in 1 dive? If not, then I do suggest that you are doing otherwise and I cannot see why you can be offended by my observation.
Dave
Mike Halligan
04-01-2004, 17:39
"For you to suggest I should do otherwise is your prerogative, but to suggest that I actually do otherwise is offensive. "
With respect, it was you who wrote
"Speaking personally, as OWI and as TO, I would not wish to sign off (or see signed off) more than two criteria in a single dive and I wouldn't combine where there has been an extension of skill (be that new type of boat, new site for demonstrating leadership or increased depth)."
Can you tell me where it explicitly states that no more than 2 criteria can be covered in 1 dive? If not, then I do suggest that you are doing otherwise and I cannot see why you can be offended by my observation.
Dave,
That is extremely selective editing, and a confrontational non-sequiter to boot. Nowhere have I said that I do other than the rubrik demands, acting always under the guidance and direction of my DO. The branch has no current DL student, and therefore I've no need to assess their achievement or otherwise.
I have explained my reasons for applying the BSAC guidance to the circumstances of my branch - fact and opinion put in answer to Terry's question. I have no use for something that "explicitly states that no more than 2 criteria can be covered in 1 dive".
I have explained how I believe one might avoid exposing a trainee to more than one new experience at the same time and why I believe that such avoidance is better for adequate assessment of the trainee (all this in the context of the branch within which I teach). I have further explained that in the first 12 months of SD diving I would expect every diver in that branch to experience the requisite depth and boat diving progression, together with a broad range of site conditions. Thus, in the normal sequence of events, there would be little need if any to sign two criteria against a single dive. The thought in our context of signing three-in-one is anathema.
After relevant theory and practical sessions, only leadership experience need be accumulated. I also set out how I expect to see that requirement being satisfied by the nature of branch diving, the interest of the trainee and the commitment of more senior divers.
Speaking personally, as OWI and as TO, I would not wish to sign off (or see signed off) more than two criteria in a single dive and I wouldn't combine where there has been an extension of skill (be that new type of boat, new site for demonstrating leadership or increased depth).
I set, police and vary no requirement, that is the function of others. I do observe and report what happens in practice and I have (perhaps foolishly) chosen to try to explain that here. You retain the prerogative of treating my experience and opinion as you see fit, but please draw no conclusion in ignorance, so quaintly English.
Ath bhlian faoi mhaise duit, mo chara dilis.
Happy New Year, Health, happiness & prosperity to all.
Mike ;-)
Lindsey Doyle
08-01-2004, 01:54
From previous posts; we are agreed; the leading must be done after the D/L demonstration dive.
Have I missed something? I don't agree with this....I interpret the 8 leading dives as experience gained since SD (just like all the "conditions" dives e.g, boat, deep etc).
I've told our DL students that on these dives they are being dive leaders.......once they qualify they will be Dive Leaders.
Any SD (or OD)is able to lead an equally or more experienced buddy.....I feel new SDs should try to lead 50% of their dives, even though we still "look after" our newly qualified guys as they're gaining experience in currents etc.
Having done the DL demo leading lesson (which is about leading and looking after a beginner), they can practise this "higher" level leading if required, before being assessed on their abilities.
In the old DL, only 5 dives had to be led (2 of those could be the assessments),they HAD to be done after leading demo, so it's unlikely to be 8 now........AFAIK, the OLD old SD (developed with DL)didn't have a leading assessment the way the current and previous SD does/did.
Cheers! Lindsey.
Mark Weeks
09-01-2004, 14:56
Thanks for all the replies, I've had an official answer off BSAC:
According to the Instructor Manual, it is only the five out of the choice of seven different conditions of dive types that must be logged as separate dives:
Planned deco
Navigation
Low vis
Night
Wreck
Drift
Wall
Of the twenty dives, at least six should be carried out from boats, at least eight the student should act as DL, at least 10 should show depth experience greater than 25m, so obviously there will be some of these experienced simultaneously - so yes. But there must be a minimum no of 20 dives and 600mins u/w experienced since qualifying as Sports Diver.
Regards,
Mike Clack, Technical Department, BSAC HQ
Just a quick query,
Under the new Dive Leader course there are a number of qualifying dives that need to be completed (e.g. 6 boat dies, 10 dives greater than 25m etc) before the qaulification can be awarded. I am under the impression that you cannot class a dive to 30m on a RIB as both a boat dive and a dive greater than 25m, and that each of the qualifying dives must be separate; I am correct in thinking this ?
Cheers
Mark
nick kay
09-01-2004, 16:31
According to the Instructor Manual, it is only the five out of the choice of seven different conditions of dive types that must be logged as separate dives:
Planned deco
Navigation
Low vis
Night
Wreck
Drift
Wall
Of the twenty dives, at least six should be carried out from boats, at least eight the student should act as DL, at least 10 should show depth experience greater than 25m, so obviously there will be some of these experienced simultaneously - so yes. But there must be a minimum no of 20 dives and 600mins u/w experienced since qualifying as Sports Diver.
Mike Clack, Technical Department, BSAC HQ
Just checking... Does that mean, that a Wreck dive with planned deco, with student acting as a DL to 30m... Whilst 4 conditions have been met, only 3 count?
Wreck OR Planned Deco
Dive Leader dive
30m dive
Martin Sutcliffe
14-01-2004, 12:01
Just checking... Does that mean, that a Wreck dive with planned deco, with student acting as a DL to 30m... Whilst 4 conditions have been met, only 3 count?
Wreck OR Planned Deco
Dive Leader dive
30m dive
That would appear to be the case.
Have fun.
Martin
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