Club instructor querie

[Rob Meddes]

Hiya
A friend of mine needs 3 dives to complete his sports diver (due to weather) & has asked me if i can complete his training. I'm an AD/Club instructor. I've completed my OWI course but have lost my 12 hr form so despite completing well over the 12 hrs i'm still just a CI. I've looked in the manual & it says an Assistant OWI can teach under supervision. What is an Assistant OWI? The basic question is can i finish my mates course?
Cheers
Rob

[PeteM]

Hiya
A friend of mine needs 3 dives to complete his sports diver (due to weather) & has asked me if i can complete his training. I'm an AD/Club instructor. I've completed my OWI course but have lost my 12 hr form so despite completing well over the 12 hrs i'm still just a CI. I've looked in the manual & it says an Assistant OWI can teach under supervision. What is an Assistant OWI? The basic question is can i finish my mates course?

AOWI is someone who has done the IFC and OWIC but not passed the exams

IIRC when we changed to the new sylabus it was specifically stated that a CI with experience is teaching in open water could continue to teach irrespective of the requirements in the manual which where phrased with the new instructor structure in mind - so you can teach your friend

HTH

Pete

[sbates]

:=Hiya
:= A friend of mine needs 3 dives to complete his sports diver (due to weather) & has asked me if i can complete his training. I'm an AD/Club instructor. I've completed my OWI course but have lost my 12 hr form so despite completing well over the 12 hrs i'm still just a CI. I've looked in the manual & it says an Assistant OWI can teach under supervision. What is an Assistant OWI? The basic question is can i finish my mates course?

AOWI is someone who has done the IFC and OWIC but not passed the exams

IIRC when we changed to the new sylabus it was specifically stated that a CI with experience is teaching in open water could continue to teach irrespective of the requirements in the manual which where phrased with the new instructor structure in mind - so you can teach your friend



The New Branch Officers Handbook is a useful source of information.

From section 4.2.5

"Club Instructor is a pre 2002 Nationally Qualified Instructor qualification, because no open water assessment was required, they are not permitted to supervise either Assistant Diving Instructors or Practical Instructors at open water locations. However, they are permitted to teach open water lessons (to their diver grade) without the need for another Nationally Qualified Instructor to be present."

[Rob Meddes]

So does all this mean the as an AD i can teach upto AD & if so why did i do my OWI course?????
Is this supposed to be this complicated ;?)
Cheers
Rob

[PeteM]

So does all this mean the as an AD i can teach upto AD

Yes but not all aspects as some must be taught be an advanced instructor.

Is this supposed to be this complicated ;?)

Don't think it is personally

Pete

[Mike Halligan]

So does all this mean the as an AD i can teach upto AD & if so why did i do my OWI course?????
Is this supposed to be this complicated ;?)

Hi, Rob,

It does mean that you can teach the OD & SD syllabus you have been examined in (both Pool and Theory) and, because of your experience, Open Water as well. It also means you can deal with those parts of DL and (in part) AD that you covered in your own learning (both having changed and former-AD being a modular course). There was no intention of depriving CIs of their existing privileges. Those CIs who attended OWIC have the option of logging experience, rather than taking OWIE.

However, I'm not so sure about teaching of those former SDCs that have now become a part of the core DTP - since previously you would have had to be an "Approved SDC Instructor" or Advanced Instructor to teach them.

The OWIC was there to encourage us to think seriously about OW training and its specific challenges. It also provided the entry platform for SDC instruction (an alternative being CI with AIC). It should be easy to obtain more schedules for your logged experience, then go back through your own or the TO's logs and reconstruct your claim to OWI. Alternatively, there is no time limit so re-starting from a current date is another option.

No more than my opinion, based on observation and memory.

HTH

Mike

[Steve Walker]

So does all this mean the as an AD i can teach upto AD & if so why did i do my OWI course?????
Is this supposed to be this complicated ;?)
Cheers
Rob

Rob, didn't I send you an electronic copy of the OWI log sheet? all you need to do is fill in the details of the logged training from your logbook and you should be able to get your Regional Coach to sign the required section, then just post it off to Sean Gribben and hey presto, 'Bob's your Aunties boyfriend" I had a similar problem with a lost sheet and signatures, got it sorted in a jiffy by my Regional Coach

[Edward Haynes]

Rob

When you get your OWI certificate you can then supervise Assistant Diving Instructors or Practical Instructors at open
water locations, as a Club Instructor you can't.

HTH

Edward

So does all this mean the as an AD i can teach upto AD & if so why did i do my OWI course?????
Is this supposed to be this complicated ;?)
Cheers
Rob

[John Williams]

Hiya
A friend of mine needs 3 dives to complete his sports diver (due to weather) & has asked me if i can complete his training. I'm an AD/Club instructor. I've completed my OWI course but have lost my 12 hr form so despite completing well over the 12 hrs i'm still just a CI. I've looked in the manual & it says an Assistant OWI can teach under supervision. What is an Assistant OWI? The basic question is can i finish my mates course?
Cheers
Rob

All of the other replies are valid.

One thing you should remember however, is that whilst you can sign up every section of your mates training only the Branch DO can sign up the qualification record page.

Most DOs like to know who is carrying out training/when and where it is being carried out - so that they can decide for themselves that it does fit into (or around) the overall training programme that they have designed for the branch before they are asked to sign it off.

For this reason you might like to discuss completing the training with the DO before actually doing it...just out of courtesy.

John

[Dave]

Most DOs like to know who is carrying out training/when and where it is being carried out - so that they can decide for themselves that it does fit into (or around) the overall training programme that they have designed for the branch before they are asked to sign it off.

If I recall correctly, it is BSAC that have defined the training programme rather than the DO.

For this reason you might like to discuss completing the training with the DO before actually doing it...just out of courtesy.

But courtesy is the keyword. The DO can not prohibit it nor refuse to sign up the qualification if it has been done in accordance witb the DTP

Dave

[jens hucke]

But courtesy is the keyword. The DO can not prohibit it nor refuse to sign up the qualification if it has been done in accordance witb the DTP

Dave

True, but if he hasn't been informed that training was taken place and if he feels that both the student and instructor felt they had to sneak behind his back to carry out the training, he might also have valid doubts that it was carried out in accordance with the DTP. The DO is the custodian of training standards within the branch on behalf of the NDO, and while a NQI has been assessed, there has to be a reason as to why BSAC felt the need to have the DO as an additional Quality Assurance.

At the least don't be surprised if presented with the completed training, the DO feels the need to do a check out dive with the student as Quality Control prior to awarding the qualification.

The DO can in fact refuse to sign up the qualification if he doubts the quality of the training received by the student isn't high enough and could put him in danger. The matter, if unresolved, could then go to the regional coach for arbitration, and if the DO still felt that he couldn't in good conscience sign up the qualification, he may prefer to resign rather than be made to aprouve diving and training conduct which he feels uncomfortable with and doesn't want to be responsable for.

A lot of hasstle that can be easily be avoided simply by putting the DO in the frame right from the start. If you consider the existing DO as unreasonable, you can always vote for a new one next time around, or change branches or start a new branch. This isn't any failling of the BSAC branch system nor of the individuals, just human nature.

kind regards
jens

[Dave]

True, but if he hasn't been informed that training was taken place and if he feels that both the student and instructor felt they had to sneak behind his back to carry out the training, he might also have valid doubts that it was carried out in accordance with the DTP. The DO is the custodian of training standards within the branch on behalf of the NDO, and while a NQI has been assessed, there has to be a reason as to why BSAC felt the need to have the DO as an additional Quality Assurance.

There doesn't have to be a reason. With any other agency I know of, when the instructor has completed the training for a student, the instructor sends the details to the agency and they then issue a certifcation card. The role of the DO is , as far as I can see, no different to that, just localising the activity rather than having it centrally managed. Unless he has good grounds to doubt that the training was done, then he has no grounds to refuse to sign it. This is one of the areas where being a member of BSAC Direct comes in so useful. No need to worry about a DOs fragile ego



At the least don't be surprised if presented with the completed training, the DO feels the need to do a check out dive with the student as Quality Control prior to awarding the qualification.

He has no right to require this. To require this is to require that the student undergo training beyond that proscribed by BSAC. If he doesn't want to sign it, then it should be progressed to an Area Coach or to the NDO

if the DO still felt that he couldn't in good conscience sign up the qualification, he may prefer to resign rather than be made to aprouve diving and training conduct which he feels uncomfortable with and doesn't want to be responsable for.

Or the area coach can just sign pro persona for the NDO.

A lot of hasstle that can be easily be avoided simply by putting the DO in the frame right from the start.

There should be no need to tell the DO unless he is a control freak.

Dave

[derek perry]

:=A lot of hasstle that can be easily be avoided simply by putting the DO in the frame right from the start.

There should be no need to tell the DO unless he is a control freak.

Dave if you don't tell the DO it isn't a branch dive and any training is invalid anyway.

I Quote below from

BSAC BRANCH OFFICERS HANDBOOK
(A Guide to Branch Management within the BSAC)

4.5.1 What is a Branch Dive?
The National Diving Committee has defined an official Branch dive:

"As one that is carried out with the prior knowledge and approval of the Branch Diving Officer."

Derek

[Dave]

:=:=A lot of hasstle that can be easily be avoided simply by putting the DO in the frame right from the start.
:=
:=There should be no need to tell the DO unless he is a control freak.

Dave if you don't tell the DO it isn't a branch dive and any training is invalid anyway.

except for the bit where it isnt since The person doing the instruction may well be a member of another branch and just have told hisDO that he is going to be doing it. Doesn't matter what Do knows about it.

Dave

[Rob Meddes]

[jens hucke]

As far as I understand, other agencies' instructors will issue a "temporary" qualification, then the agency verifies that the instructor is on their books, current, paid up, qualified to teach what he has taught, and the agency does in fact provide the QA, will sound past trainees, even taking instructors off their list if there is concern about standards or behaviour. So you are right in comparing it to being similar to localising that same QA with the DO. The difference is that a DO can not withdraw someone's NQI status, and that BSAC doesn't require/perform minimum performance checks on a regular ongoing basis to keep Instructors on a valid and active list for branches, although a mechanism is in place to deal with extreme cases being reported. Hence the more informal local QA role of the DO. Whether this is right or wrong or even enough is a different argument, but it is "a" way of doing it.

There equally should be no need to go intentionally behind the DOs back and use the good natured branch framework to force him or anyone else for that matter into doing something against their will such as blackmailling them into signing a piece of paper because it says somewhere they have to. As such the DO can refuse to sign, and step down on grounds that he would be failling his duty of care by issuing qualifications that he fears might put the divers in danger.

Maybe the DO you refer to is a control freak with a large but fragile ego having a personal grudge with an instructor, in which case the instructor would be unfair to use an innocent trainee as the pawn in the middle, just to make a point because the BOH says he can.

Of course if the instructors and DO trust each other, and are all capable, then none of this is an issue, as the DO would surely appreciate and endorse any safe training opportunity to have been exploited for the benefit of the branch members, regardless of prior knowledge. I think this is close to the point you were trying to make, in which case I agree.

kind regards
jens

[Edward Haynes]

Derek

Just one question, where is it stated that training will only be conducted on a 'Branch Dive'?

Granted all Open Water training shall be preceded by a Risk Assessment (BOH Para 2.4.12), which I would expect the Branch Diving Officer to ask for. If they don't they could be opening themselves for a claim of negligence (see BOH 4.5.1, sub-Para, Non-Authorised Dives).

Edward

I Quote below from

BSAC BRANCH OFFICERS HANDBOOK
(A Guide to Branch Management within the BSAC)

4.5.1 What is a Branch Dive?
The National Diving Committee has defined an official Branch dive:

"As one that is carried out with the prior knowledge and approval of the Branch Diving Officer."

Derek

[Dave]

There equally should be no need to go intentionally behind the DOs back and use the good natured branch framework to force him or anyone else for that matter into doing something against their will such as blackmailling them into signing a piece of paper because it says somewhere they have to.

That isn't blackmail. That is his duty. If it says that it is
a requirement of the role, how is it blackmail? If a person is not prepared to meet rules that pertain to the position, then they shouldn't take it in the 1st time. To call it blackmail is risible

If he has some concern to check that the person who signed the person up is indeed an instructor, he can check with HQ to confirm it. Perhaps HQ will even be prepared to check with the instructor to confirm that he did give the training and sign the person up. These would be quite reasonable checks to make. To refuse to award the qualification after this, would be unreasonable and , iirc, beyond the right of the DO ad well as being insulting towards the instructor.


As such the DO can refuse to sign, and step down on grounds that he would be failling his duty of care by issuing qualifications that he fears might put the divers in danger.


If he undertakes the above, then I cannot see how he can have any valid concerns.

Of course if the instructors and DO trust each other, and are all capable, then none of this is an issue, as the DO would surely appreciate and endorse any safe training opportunity to have been exploited for the benefit of the branch members,

Not all instructors know all DOs (unsurprisingly). I expect that most DOs are sensible and would be pleased for the trainee that they were able to get their training done , wherever it was done. I can only hope that it is a small minority which would go into a sulk that the trainee undertook the training wherever it could be found.

Dave

[jens hucke]

Hi Dave,
I think we are both talking about different scenarios, as I was more concerned about inbranch management where the DO is "responsable" for his instructors in his branch, as opposed to an outside instructor whose training he is asked to just acknowledge.
regards
jens

[derek perry]

:=:=:=A lot of hasstle that can be easily be avoided simply by putting the DO in the frame right from the start.
:=:=
:=:=There should be no need to tell the DO unless he is a control freak.
:=
:=Dave if you don't tell the DO it isn't a branch dive and any training is invalid anyway.
:=
except for the bit where it isnt since The person doing the instruction may well be a member of another branch and just have told hisDO that he is going to be doing it. Doesn't matter what Do knows about it.

Then a DO has been informed and it is a club dive, no problem.

Derek


Dave

[Philip Smith]

What people also have to remember if it's not a branch dive your BSAC 3rd party insurance is invalid

Not true (BOH 4.5.1).

Philip Smith

[Dave]

Hi Dave,
I think we are both talking about different scenarios, as I was more concerned about inbranch management where the DO is "responsable" for his instructors in his branch, as opposed to an outside instructor whose training he is asked to just acknowledge.


Ahh, that is a slightly different kettle of worms.

Dave

[Dave]

What people also have to remember if it's not a branch dive your BSAC 3rd party insurance is invalid and cerainly my life insurance states I am covered for diving only within BSAC rules.

1st part is untrue and with the second part, does it specifically say BSAC or does it say "certifying agency". Many people have multiple certifications from different agencies

Dave

[derek perry]

:=What people also have to remember if it's not a branch dive your BSAC 3rd party insurance is invalid

Not true (BOH 4.5.1).

Philip Smith

Quite right, getting my insurances mixed up

Derek

[derek perry]

:=What people also have to remember if it's not a branch dive your BSAC 3rd party insurance is invalid and cerainly my life insurance states I am covered for diving only within BSAC rules.

1st part is untrue and with the second part, does it specifically say BSAC or does it say "certifying agency". Many people have multiple certifications from different agencies

Dave

Dave
1st part you are right I was getting insurances mixed up.
2nd part, my insurance does only refer to BSAC because that was my declared agency when I took up the policy 20 years ago and that is what was referd to in the correspondense.
Derek

[Edward Haynes]

Next someone will suggest 2 ex-members one being an instructor and one a novice can go off training and it will be accepted.

No, see BOH 4.2.5 'Who can Teach - and What?'
"... All instruction must be supervised (Supervised means *** ?on the premises / at the dive site? *** and able to be called upon for help and advice if needed) by an Nationally Qualified Instructor ..."
(the astrexes have been added for effect.)

What people also have to remember if it's not a branch dive your BSAC 3rd party insurance is invalid and cerainly my life insurance states I am covered for diving only within BSAC rules.

Not correct, but Philip has given the reference. Interesting to see the an ex-SAA Branch (the branch's affiliation was withdrawn after the incident) could be sued over the death of a diver on an 'unoffical' dive.

Edward

[Dave]

Not correct, but Philip has given the reference. Interesting to see the an ex-SAA Branch (the branch's affiliation was withdrawn after the incident) could be sued over the death of a diver on an 'unoffical' dive.


Nothing like misreporting a news article is there Edwared

The Affiliation was not withdrawn, but suspended

The fact that someone has stated "We are to see a solicitor to see what action we can take on whether to sue the club" does not suggest that there is any likelihood of their being able to do so, unlike your comment. If the club had nothing to do with the dive, I am prepared to bet a Hahn Premium that they have no liability

Plus given the accuracy of reporting such as "She was also not qualified to use nitrox in her breathing tank - a mixture of nitrogen and oxygen - to reach deeper depths." . I doubt that the coroner as told this, or if he was, he was misled.

Also "He was told Miss Stevens, of Hazelwood Close, Honiton, was not qualified to dive so deeply, particularly as it was her first dive of the year." ... Qualifications ( unless SAA is different ) make no mention of explicit restrictions on depth for a specific dive ( in this case the 1st ) , just a general limitation.

Dave

[Edward Haynes]

Accepting the inaccurate journalistic licence of the article and my comments, the question is.

How would you show, as the DO (or other committee member), you had no liability if this incident had happened in your branch?

We are now way off the original subject

Edward

[Dave]

How would you show, as the DO (or other committee member), you had no liability if this incident had happened in your branch?

By saying

"I had no knowledge of their plans so was unable to make any recommendations to them against doing so. If they had come to me with their plan , I would have recommended against it due to it being beyond their training limits depthwise ( which they know about since the qualification limits are explained in the course and on the certification page of their Qualification record ) and untrained in use of enriched air nitrox. They were diving against BSAC recommdations and outide the knowledge of teh branch"

I think that that would do the trick, same as I think it would do to protect the NDO should it have been a member of BSAC Direct.

Dave