defibrillators

[rogersides]

Hi,
I've noticed that one of the first aid qualifications under PADI, includes optional training in use of the defibrillators (AED) that you sometimes see in shopping centres etc.

Will BSAC be looking to include this in their first aid for divers training? Or is it already included in a course?

[tony dwyer]

Hi,
I've noticed that one of the first aid qualifications under PADI, includes optional training in use of the defibrillators (AED) that you sometimes see in shopping centres etc.

Will BSAC be looking to include this in their first aid for divers training? Or is it already included in a course?

AED's are life savers. I suspect that they are going to be almost omnipresent in the very near future.
They do however, require a little training. Which I would be happy to provide (wearing PADI badge).

I would like to see the use of AED's included in BSAC training, That said, I have yet to be involved in a major incident while on a diving trip, let alone deal with an arrested casualty.

[steve parry]

i've wondered about the use of defibrillators- a most useful
piece of kit in a dry emergency. Two points though (maybe you can advise how PADI address these)

(1) In the UK the casualty may be in a clumbersome dry suit (cut it off in an emergency I hear you say ? Thats one of the best first aid techniques I know- take a knife to within 6 inches of an O'Three......the recovery effect is nothing short of a miracle...)

(2) Electricity & Water don't mix. Possible partial short circuit between the electodes on the chest if wet ? the
treatment may not be so effective due to a weeker charge ?



:=Hi,
:=I've noticed that one of the first aid qualifications under PADI, includes optional training in use of the defibrillators (AED) that you sometimes see in shopping centres etc.
:=
:=Will BSAC be looking to include this in their first aid for divers training? Or is it already included in a course?
:=
AED's are life savers. I suspect that they are going to be almost omnipresent in the very near future.
They do however, require a little training. Which I would be happy to provide (wearing PADI badge).

I would like to see the use of AED's included in BSAC training, That said, I have yet to be involved in a major incident while on a diving trip, let alone deal with an arrested casualty.

[tony dwyer]

i've wondered about the use of defibrillators- a most useful
piece of kit in a dry emergency. Two points though (maybe you can advise how PADI address these)

(1) In the UK the casualty may be in a clumbersome dry suit (cut it off in an emergency I hear you say ? Thats one of the best first aid techniques I know- take a knife to within 6 inches of an O'Three......the recovery effect is nothing short of a miracle...)

(2) Electricity & Water don't mix. Possible partial short circuit between the electodes on the chest if wet ? the
treatment may not be so effective due to a weeker charge ?



(1) Yup - that would work. Tell em about in a loud voice first!

(2) AED's go through a safety check. The ones I trained on would not work if there was a short present. Have to dry the casualty a bit. Pour alcohol on him / her perhaps?

[muddy puddle]

Great, lots of wiggly amps on a nice wet boat/poolside/waters edge! I know I will be standing on a rubber mat!!
I say leave that to the professionals!

[Paul Oliver]

Great, lots of wiggly amps on a nice wet boat/poolside/waters edge! I know I will be standing on a rubber mat!!
I say leave that to the professionals!

Muddy

While i agree on that i raised the issue today while doing rescue training and one of my students an ER Nurse. Her view was that the systems now are so simple with a guide built into the machine talking you through it, that it has got to be a consideration in the future.

Dive Safe

Paul

[iainmsmith]

:=Great, lots of wiggly amps on a nice wet boat/poolside/waters edge! I know I will be standing on a rubber mat!!
:=I say leave that to the professionals!

Muddy

While i agree on that i raised the issue today while doing rescue training and one of my students an ER Nurse. Her view was that the systems now are so simple with a guide built into the machine talking you through it, that it has got to be a consideration in the future.

Then lets consider it in the future when the technology available is suitable for use in the conditions in which we're talking about using it.

(Of course, if someone can tell me with absolute certainty that an AED knows not to "shock" if there's the risk of arcing, then I will reconsider my position)

Iain

[Will Swift]

I believe the gel pads (electrodes) need dry skin to adhere, without a firm connection to the body the AED doesn't allow a shock - and even a weeker charge would be better than no charge at all.

We all accept that being trained means we may need to use that training, and that means for the wider community too, an extra couple of hours on the use of an AED doesn't seem too much of an additional burden to put into the BSAC training course.

[Gordon Archer]

I believe the gel pads (electrodes) need dry skin to adhere, without a firm connection to the body the AED doesn't allow a shock - and even a weeker charge would be better than no charge at all.

We all accept that being trained means we may need to use that training, and that means for the wider community too, an extra couple of hours on the use of an AED doesn't seem too much of an additional burden to put into the BSAC training course.


------------------

AED Defibrillators are an easy piece of equipment to use the important part of using these is the basic training in CPR that goes along with this.
I am an OWI instuctor and by qualification via my local ambulance brigade, I am also qualified in the use of a defibrillator.(I am now an instuctor for our local Heart start scheme).
Local communities all over the country are setting up what is known as Heart start schemes that respond to any incident of suspected heart problem's in an emergency. Being local we can arrive on site trained ready to administer assistance in minutes whereas ambulances can take 30+ minutes to rural and some metropolitain area's.
The course is short, good and you have to re-qualify every six months.
As divers we are all skilled in cpr, the device is self
monitoring and talks you through the necessary scenario's that you might meet.
The problem is, there are not enough volunteer's and here we are asking about including the equipment in a course by BSAC.
Go and seek the local scheme or start one up, are not dive clubs part of the local community, and with all the divers around a pool of already cpr trained people is available.
The local ambulance brigade will train you for free you give the community something in return and you will be able to answer all the questions above.

[Paul Oliver]

Iain

Well she did mention something along those lines, i'll ask her agin tomorrow, but like so much progress is so fast nowerdays. I think this thread linked to that started by Dr Chris Edge will certainly be cropping up in the future.

Maybe chance for BSAC to become cutting edge again?

Or wait for someone else to do it all and follow meekly behind?

Dive Safe

Paul

[tony dwyer]

Iain

Well she did mention something along those lines, i'll ask her agin tomorrow, but like so much progress is so fast nowerdays. I think this thread linked to that started by Dr Chris Edge will certainly be cropping up in the future.

Maybe chance for BSAC to become cutting edge again?

Or wait for someone else to do it all and follow meekly behind?

Dive Safe

Paul

AED training is already available from PADI Instructors via the Rescue First Response course.

[zine parker]

Just as with CPR the more people who know how to use an AED the better; particularly if AEDs become more common - there is, I think, one at the railway station.

Having just been on an ILS course a point was made that AEDs cost at least ?2500 each. Sadly not quite within the budget for our branch no matter how hard we try to swing the authorities "it's to ensure safety".

Zine

[iainmsmith]

Just as with CPR the more people who know how to use an AED the better; particularly if AEDs become more common - there is, I think, one at the railway station.

Yeah, fine. But is it BSAC's role to be teaching resuscitation techniques that are of very limited applicability in diving situations? As you point out, AEDs are financially out of reach of most Branches and I'm hugely sceptical about mixing high voltages and salt water...never mind the issue of keeping the AED servicable. After all, it's not as if marine radios and engines had an excellent reputation for reliability within UK dive clubs...and they're designed for the environment!

If people want to go and learn how to use AEDs in circumstances where AEDs might be useful, then there are organisations out there that teach you how to do it. We're a DIVING club, not a voluntary first aid society.

Iain

[Anthony Nathan]

Hi,
I've noticed that one of the first aid qualifications under PADI, includes optional training in use of the defibrillators (AED) that you sometimes see in shopping centres etc.

Will BSAC be looking to include this in their first aid for divers training? Or is it already included in a course?


We have had an AED in Rickmansworth SAC for years and actually submitted our course to BSAC years ago - no reply from them!

[Winker88]

Hi,
I've noticed that one of the first aid qualifications under PADI, includes optional training in use of the defibrillators (AED) that you sometimes see in shopping centres etc.

Will BSAC be looking to include this in their first aid for divers training? Or is it already included in a course?

Hi I am a EFR Instructor the AED is a good bit of kit it saves lifes.one rule of a de-fib is never use it by water or with water divers get wet!!!!!!!!

[Dave Humm]

Personally I'd be very surprised and concerned to see a defib used in a rib. Not safe at all.

AED's will detect the pulse of others who may be touching a casualty and therefore won't shock; as mentioned earlier the pads need to be affixed to the chest (which may require shaving beforehand - I jest not) Even if they were used on a rib, everyone needs to be clear of the casualty prior to the delivery otherwise one or more persons are going to get a nasty shock - Literally ! This is after you've removed the DS, dried the casualty etc etc etc. A Rib is not the place to offer this form of treatment. (not yet anyway)

CPR can be administered if the casualty is positioned well within the boat (room permitting) with minimal remedial preparation. Naturally the casualty should be handed over to the appropriate services and taken to a medical facility ASAP.

The only circumstance where I feel a defib would be of benefit is before or after a dive where the potential casualty is dry and out of his equipment. Remembering that an AED can be used on a conscious casualty complaining of severe chest pains, the unit would analyse the casualty and provide a visual read out for the ambulance service upon their arrival or, should the casualty arrest, the AED would be already attached and set up ready to deliver shock when it determines appropriate.

As an AED trained user (and advanced first aider working in the chemical industry) I have seen this first had and can testify they are a superb - idiot proof bit of kit. They do not however like water !

Safe diving

Dave H

[pete gosnell]

When I first heard that PADI was introducing an AED course I thought that it was a good idea. In the States there are more AEDs in public places that you can shake a stick at. They are also in the work place and even in schools so the rationale for the course may be the availability of an AED close to a diver at a pool or lake or even the sea. I understand that PADI offer their courses worldwide hence the availability of doing an AED course in England but that's where the similarity ends.
Although in the UK AEDs are being found in several public places and people are being trained on them there are no where near the ammount that is needed.
So now if I take this one step further. If BSAC were to run an AED course and you pass it what AED would you use? They cost about ?2k to buy so you need to belong to a club with funds to buy one. Who would look after it, where would you store it and how would it be used, as in would you have it at the poolside on training nights or take it to sea in the boat? When would it come out of it's box?
Don't forget some basic rules for defibrillation;
1. only shock dry people (if the body is wet, arcing between the 2 gel pads can occur)
2. don't shock someone if they are in a pool of water (you maybe standing in that same pool of water-the law of conductivity)
3. make sure that no one is touching the body when it is being shocked (even a biphasic shock delivers a 120J belt as it's first automated power setting -- ouch!)
4. never shock on the move
5. have plenty of room to work in
Are rules 1-5 condusive to a diving environment?

I use AEDs, 12 lead manual defibs and consider myself well practised. How often would you recertify? I recert my community first responder group every 3 months which is free.You might have to pay a fee.

Although it is the time to the first shock which is critical I cannot see clubs buying an AED and therefore think that maybe in years to come an AED course would be a good idea but now would be a waste of peoples time and commitment.
Pete
Paramedic

[David Humm]

Pete,

You asked
"...How often would you recertify?"

I'm required to undergo recerfification every year and complete a refresher course at 6 month intervals IE once in between certification.

(This is occupationally based and nothing to do with diving)

If your using 12 lead manual defibs I'm presuming your medically trained, =Scratch that just seen "Paramedic" in your post= naturally this level of qualification isn't required for the 'average' diver who, if using an AED would be leaving all the important decisions to a fully automated unit... Bar ONE. It won't know if the casualty or the surroundings is/are wet, thats a fairly easy one to figure out - even under stress.

I'm all in favour of AED's providing they are fully supported by diving agencies and are operated by trained persons. I am however sceptical on their validity within the "wet" diving community - For all the reasons you and others mention.

Regards and safe diving

Dave Humm