lectures

[steve-k]

the need for lectures

if somebody taught themselves the theory part of a course, and was able to comfatabaly pass the theory exam, would they need to still do the lecture? and if so why
as i have had explaned to me, there are plenty of self teaching courses avalable, and if you pass the exam you have deemed to have reached the required levle

i have never herd of this within diving befour and would apreciate your views
steve-k

[Steve Walker]

the need for lectures

if somebody taught themselves the theory part of a course, and was able to comfatabaly pass the theory exam, would they need to still do the lecture? and if so why
as i have had explaned to me, there are plenty of self teaching courses avalable, and if you pass the exam you have deemed to have reached the required levle

i have never herd of this within diving befour and would apreciate your views
steve-k

Shortcuts - the modern epidemic... I'm so sick of this prevailing attitude.

Someone once tried this with me and the answer was a resounding "No!"
I'd say the lectures are a formal requirement for a very good reason: self-taught is fine up to a point but if there's a serious FUBAR because the self-taught trainee did not fully understand a diving issue, then they haven't been properly trained. If someone has had formal lectures from a properly qualified instructor (given that instuctors in a given area tend to know something of one another as there are relatively few of them) and they are properly signed off, then I find there's a whopping big hole in their theory knowledge that tells me quite a bit about that trainee an their attitude to their training.

Plus if someone doesn't have the committment to sit through a handful of basic lectures (FFS! it's not Orbital Mechanics is it?) I wouldn't want to give up my precious spare time to take them diving.

Regards
Whackford Squeers Esq. ;-)

[steve swift]

Shortcuts - the modern epidemic... I'm so sick of this prevailing attitude.

Someone once tried this with me and the answer was a resounding "No!"
I'd say the lectures are a formal requirement for a very good reason: self-taught is fine up to a point but if there's a serious FUBAR because the self-taught trainee did not fully understand a diving issue, then they haven't been properly trained. If someone has had formal lectures from a properly qualified instructor (given that instuctors in a given area tend to know something of one another as there are relatively few of them) and they are properly signed off, then I find there's a whopping big hole in their theory knowledge that tells me quite a bit about that trainee an their attitude to their training.

Plus if someone doesn't have the committment to sit through a handful of basic lectures (FFS! it's not Orbital Mechanics is it?) I wouldn't want to give up my precious spare time to take them diving.

Regards
Whackford Squeers Esq. ;-)

Interestingly PADI are really pushing the self-learning route. The learning is assessed, and they have the opportunity to ask the instructor for help so there shouldn't be bits they don't understand by the time they get in the water.

To look at it from a different perspective, I have sat in enough lectures (diving, work related and uni) to know that lectures are not always necessarily the answer....

If the student has the desire to do it himself, why not let him? If he passes the theory exam at the end, he knows what the powers that be have decided he needs to know. End of problems re cant get to club on certain night etc

Rgds
Steve

[Pete Stiff]

Hi, I have always regarded lectures as an information top-up and a sort of discussion group activity, so trainees are always encouraged to read the manuals and come to lectures prepared to widen the knowledge they had aquired. If people are talked at they only retain a fairly low percentage of information but if they read it themselves, even only once they retain more and this tends to reflect in pass rates.
So a combination of self education and follow up lectures seem to be working best, also the lecture room is a good place to build a club atmosphere and buddy partnerships etc..

[Andy Wade]

Hi, I have always regarded lectures as an information top-up and a sort of discussion group activity, so trainees are always encouraged to read the manuals and come to lectures prepared to widen the knowledge they had aquired. If people are talked at they only retain a fairly low percentage of information but if they read it themselves, even only once they retain more and this tends to reflect in pass rates.
So a combination of self education and follow up lectures seem to be working best, also the lecture room is a good place to build a club atmosphere and buddy partnerships etc..

Indeed.
A good instructor will bring the subject to life, explaining it in a way that each and every student can understand, and adding to it with their experience, which is something that simply can't be got from a dive manual.
IMHO it is essential for the student to read the manual from cover to cover, and for their questions about the subject to be answered by the instructor in the lecture. 'Self teaching' is not an exclusive option in diving.
And to dive with the people that trained you and socialise with you, is the single most important thing that a dive club can provide.


.

[John Williams]

My wife sat, and passed, her Club Instructor Exam at the time when the entry level had been lowered to Dive Leader - but the level of the examination remained at Advanced Diver.

HQ were happy for her to have her AD Theory signed up as passed since she had passed a Nationally Assessed exam to that level.

However, in consultation with her DO (me) she asked if she could sit through all the lectures when they were presented ...just to take every available opportunity to learn.

It is partly this attitude that makes her a very widely respected and very capable diver.

I do not beleive that people should be held back by scheduling problems (cannot make every week because of shifts etc) - but do beleive that there should be a minimum standard of training. The minimum standard involves supervision by a BSAC NQI...which is simply not available when reading a book.

Discussions with qualified people are a key part of learning - is this not the primary reason why we visit the pub after training sessions???

You should decide for yourself what is the minimum standard required - and differentiate it from the standard you would like to acheive.

Most divers strive for excellence and the highest standards rather than "cutting corners" to reach minimum standards. I've never cut a corner without understanding the implications and considering the consequences carefully - and then I've only done it when there was no real alternative to doing so.

But then...it's your life (and the lives of those who dive with you)

John

[steve-k]

john an excellent reply

and thx to others for the reply

i think that most of us ageree that discussions are an important part of the learning process

however (and theres allways an however) my inital statement was amed towardes the elete and not the norm

my background first
i did all my bsac courses from scratch althaugh i was padi qualified, i had and have no problems with this as i have allways had the opinion that we can never learn too much

but re-the self learning process
i will take myself as an example rarther than the person that aproched me,
i should of done my advanced diver at least 3 years ago, but due to us being a small club, we (they) never got round to it, now i am going down the instructor route i have got and read the instructor manual, i looked at the advanced diver section and thaught i know and do all that anyway,
now bairing in mind that i dont mind re-doing any course i have no problem with doing the full course, but to teach somebody what thay have allready been doing for the last few years does seam a tad of a waist of time

[steve-k]

john an excellent reply

and thx to others for the reply

i think that most of us ageree that discussions are an important part of the learning process

however (and theres allways an however) my inital statement was amed towardes the elete and not the norm

my background first
i did all my bsac courses from scratch althaugh i was padi qualified, i had and have no problems with this as i have allways had the opinion that we can never learn too much

but re-the self learning process
i will take myself as an example rarther than the person that aproched me,
i should of done my advanced diver at least 3 years ago, but due to us being a small club, we (they) never got round to it, now i am going down the instructor route i have got and read the instructor manual, i looked at the advanced diver section and thaught i know and do all that anyway,
now bairing in mind that i dont mind re-doing any course i have no problem with doing the full course, but to teach somebody what thay have allready been doing for the last few years does seam a tad of a waist of time

[Geoff Oldfield]

Interesting topic this. On an earlier trip to the Bahamas this year I was introduced to the self learning model by the diving centre we were using for our boat diving. I was having a social chat with one of the American divers from the boat and learned that he had started diving only the Saturday before. I asked him about how his training was going and about the lectures as he was on a resort course. He told me he was handed a book and told to read it. No problem there I thought, until he added that he had not really had the time to turn a page yet as he had been busy entertaining the family when he wasn't diving. Interestingly, that day we had all dived Theos Wreck at 32 mtrs and he was amongst us. Now that's progressive training for you, wreck penetration at 25mtrs after starting in the pool only three days before. Fortunately he hadn't had a problem, otherwise I wouldn't have been talking to him.

My point is that yes you can learn by reading a book, if you really put your mind to it, but lectures give the lecturer a golden opportunity to put the facts into perspective in an interesting and helpful way and give the candidate an oppertunity to check for transfer.

Sure an examination can do the same thing, but my experience with BSAC exam papers is that they miss too much need to know stuff and pad out with could know stuff. Good instructors identify what is must know and attempt to get the important bits across.

My recomendation is use the two mediums, lectures and self study.

Geoff

[Andy Wade]

Interesting topic this. On an earlier trip to the Bahamas this year I was introduced to the self learning model by the diving centre we were using for our boat diving. I was having a social chat with one of the American divers from the boat and learned that he had started diving only the Saturday before. I asked him about how his training was going and about the lectures as he was on a resort course. He told me he was handed a book and told to read it. No problem there I thought, until he added that he had not really had the time to turn a page yet as he had been busy entertaining the family when he wasn't diving. Interestingly, that day we had all dived Theos Wreck at 32 mtrs and he was amongst us. Now that's progressive training for you, wreck penetration at 25mtrs after starting in the pool only three days before. Fortunately he hadn't had a problem, otherwise I wouldn't have been talking to him.

And because he didn't have either an experienced instructor or any experienced dive buddies to point out the error of his ways, he could have killed both himself and his buddy.
Sounds to me like a dreadful way to teach diving.

My point is that yes you can learn by reading a book, if you really put your mind to it, but lectures give the lecturer a golden opportunity to put the facts into perspective in an interesting and helpful way and give the candidate an oppertunity to check for transfer.

Sure an examination can do the same thing, but my experience with BSAC exam papers is that they miss too much need to know stuff and pad out with could know stuff. Good instructors identify what is must know and attempt to get the important bits across.

My recomendation is use the two mediums, lectures and self study.

Absolutely.

[edward haynes]

steve-k

I would not like to be the Branch Diving Officer who signed up such an individual.

The Instructor Manual and the Branch Officers Handbook both make it clear that nothing should be added or REMOVED from the training course(s).

None attendance of lectures is (IMHO) a move away from the guidance issued by BSAC. What would the insurance companies make of it?

Edward

[steve-k]

Edward

i agree with you

my comments ware amed at at indevidules that have allready suppased the levle thay are about to undertake

when i did by boat handalling course i learned nothing and found the course (theory wise) very disapointing, this was not a bad instructor or bad course content, but the course is amed for indevidules with no idea about boats and only teaches the basics, i was even invited to demonstrate my digital chart system as part of the course (i was in fact teaching the instructor) lol
the leacures took up 3 evenings and some traveling, i learned nothing,
this said i dont regret doing the lectures, as i agree that the social aspect can be as important as the lectures

i actually agree that all lectures should be attended, i was voicing a members opinion and a bit of devils advocart

steve-k

[Steve Walker]

:=My recomendation is use the two mediums, lectures and self study.

Absolutely.

Me three! I've always told trainees that they won't pass the exam unless they (i) listen to the lectures AND (ii) thoroughly read the study materials, and it's easy enough to intersperse the lecures with "see pages XX to XX in the manuals for recommended reading around this subject..."
I remember one trainee (a medical student no less ...) who thought the old Sport Diving manual was "too much of a big book to bother to read"

[markbsac]

the need for lectures

if somebody taught themselves the theory part of a course, and was able to comfatabaly pass the theory exam, would they need to still do the lecture? and if so why
as i have had explaned to me, there are plenty of self teaching courses avalable, and if you pass the exam you have deemed to have reached the required levle

i have never herd of this within diving befour and would apreciate your views
steve-k

When starting a lecture i always tell the students this is mainly an overview of the whole topic and they may not be able to take it all in during the lecture ..so must read the lecture up in there student study books and sports diver manual...to get it to sink in if unsure.

and to ask any instructor anything if stuck on a specific topic.

[Nick McV]

now bairing in mind that i dont mind re-doing any course i have no problem with doing the full course, but to teach somebody what thay have allready been doing for the last few years does seam a tad of a waist of time

I would support the argument that book learning on its own is not always sufficient, and raise the point that the assessment does not cover everything. Getting the student to sit in on the lectures, and involve them by getting them to lead/present portions of the lecture may be an option, and maybe give them a taste for instruction?

This may help them to see some value in attending the lectures and integrate them better into the branch, as well as giving you an opportunity to see that there are no holes in their understanding.

[Dave]

I would support the argument that book learning on its own is not always sufficient, and raise the point that the assessment does not cover everything.

Not always sufficient implies that sometimes it can be sufficient. The assessment may not cover everything but even if the person had attended lectures, in areas non-examined, there would be nothing to show that the person remembered anything about that area anyway

Getting the student to sit in on the lectures, and involve them by getting them to lead/present portions of the lecture may be an option, and maybe give them a taste for instruction?

This could not take place unless the person had already undertaken the IFC in which case they already would have the taste of it

This may help them to see some value in attending the lectures and integrate them better into the branch, as well as giving you an opportunity to see that there are no holes in their understanding.

Personally, I think that if the person can pass the exam straight up, then I see little benefit in sitting through lectures. They obviously do have the requisite theoretical knowledge

Dave