AV

[Tony Dwyer]

The following is from BSAC 'Safe diving practices'.

***********
When demonstrating or practising AV in the water, a proper seal (usually nose) should be made. A simulated seal is not sufficient to give the sense of realism required, and does not guarantee a successful acquisition of technique. The use of a manikin is strongly recommended when practising AV on land.
***********

I have a vague recollection of a suggestion that we cannot insist that a trainee (or anyone else) actually performs a real nose seal during a training or assessment exercise.

This make sense to me as there is a risk of infection and current first aid training emphasises the use of barriers when contact with bodily fluids is a possibility.

If one conducts a 'Risk Assessment' of the proposed activity. It could be argued that mouth to nose contact may present unacceptable risk.

Any Thoughts?

[Steve Walker]

I think this is a tricky one and I'd suggest we all have to make that individual choice depending on circumstances, no point teaching AV if you don't teach one of the most crucial parts, but no need to overdo it either.

On sunday I was teaching SS1 with three trainees, one had a little bit of an outgoing cold so I somewhat deliberately demonstrated on the other two, but got them to demonstrate it on each one of the others my rationale being that these three would probably already have been exposed to the bugs due to the microbial mixis which takes place at the start of term. Once they'd demonstrated competency with static AV then briefly with in water AV I'd leave it at that and not encourage too much mouth/nose contact

I would say that it's fair to excercise common sense judgement in such cases and others we can dream up, I certainly wouldn't be willing to demo AV if I had felt there was a higher risk than one might "reasonably" expect (very grey area indeed). But if an instructor doesn't ever want to be exposed to any biological risks at all, probably best to stay at home in a Howard Hughes sty-lee and give up diving altogether ;-)))))
Cheers
steve

[terryh]

The following is from BSAC 'Safe diving practices'.

***********
When demonstrating or practising AV in the water, a proper seal (usually nose) should be made. A simulated seal is not sufficient to give the sense of realism required, and does not guarantee a successful acquisition of technique. The use of a manikin is strongly recommended when practising AV on land.
***********

I have a vague recollection of a suggestion that we cannot insist that a trainee (or anyone else) actually performs a real nose seal during a training or assessment exercise.

This make sense to me as there is a risk of infection and current first aid training emphasises the use of barriers when contact with bodily fluids is a possibility.

If one conducts a 'Risk Assessment' of the proposed activity. It could be argued that mouth to nose contact may present unacceptable risk.

Any Thoughts?

Yep.

We usually make a seal on the nose bridge of the mask during
training and reserve the actual mouth to nose for assessments
only.

The question is always asked have you a cold, cold sores,
mouth ulcers etc. and only if the awnser is no do we carry on.

You have a approval from both parties and are only using mouth
to nose during assessments where it can be argued that
realism is essential for all concerned.

All IMO of course.

TerryH

[Steve Walker]

We usually make a seal on the nose bridge of the mask during
training and reserve the actual mouth to nose for assessments
only.

But AIUI, in the new SD training AV isn't actually "assessed" in the way it used to be when I were a Sport Diver (and this was all fields back then... ), at least not according to the prompt cards I was looking at this weekend which seemed to make that part of SD a bit of a breeze (will check manual at home later). Unless the trend has been to still include the old style method?

[Tony Dwyer]

Pretty much my own position.

The question was raised because one of our new ADI's was apparently told during a rescent IFC that a real mouth<>nose seal was required to be demonstrated.

[terryh]

:=We usually make a seal on the nose bridge of the mask during
:=training and reserve the actual mouth to nose for assessments
:=only.

But AIUI, in the new SD training AV isn't actually "assessed" in the way it used to be when I were a Sport Diver (and this was all fields back then... ), at least not according to the prompt cards I was looking at this weekend which seemed to make that part of SD a bit of a breeze (will check manual at home later). Unless the trend has been to still include the old style method?

Assessment in all but name.

Diver Rescue - SO1
Rescue from 6m.
*Complete rescue sequence.
"should be performed as one continuos sequence"

"At the end of the exercise the students should be fully
competent and confident .........is not performed correctly ..
......should be carried out until this standard is acheived".

TerryH

[Steve Walker]

:=:=We usually make a seal on the nose bridge of the mask during
:=:=training and reserve the actual mouth to nose for assessments
:=:=only.
:=
:=But AIUI, in the new SD training AV isn't actually "assessed" in the way it used to be when I were a Sport Diver (and this was all fields back then... ), at least not according to the prompt cards I was looking at this weekend which seemed to make that part of SD a bit of a breeze (will check manual at home later). Unless the trend has been to still include the old style method?

Assessment in all but name.

Diver Rescue - SO1
Rescue from 6m.
*Complete rescue sequence.
"should be performed as one continuos sequence"

"At the end of the exercise the students should be fully
competent and confident .........is not performed correctly ..
......should be carried out until this standard is acheived".

TerryH



Yep, guess it's all in the interpretation, so we do get to be evil to the little dears after all Muhahahahaha.....
PS found out last week that the trainee who had to do SS1 in the pool the previous week was so knackered by towing a casualty one length of the pool, dekitting them then getting them into the cloak/mantle carrying position, that she's signed up to the Uni gym to get fit :-)))) THat's what happens when kids play 'puta games instead of getting out on their bikes
Cheers
Steve - old fogey - W

[derek perry]

Pretty much my own position.

The question was raised because one of our new ADI's was apparently told during a rescent IFC that a real mouth<>nose seal was required to be demonstrated.

On my OWI course and exam I and other members of my branch refused to actually make contact and we were accommodated.
This even went to the top at BSAC and came back that if you don't do the seal then there should be additional manikin training to compensate and the water training should be as near the real thing as possible. We were told you will NOT fail if you refuse to make contact but the instructor should be satisfied in your ability to do it/teach it if it really happens.
We have never taught it in our branch due to the possible risk of infection.

Derek Perry
D.O. Cosmos S.A.C.

[Tony Dwyer]

:=Pretty much my own position.
:=
:=The question was raised because one of our new ADI's was apparently told during a rescent IFC that a real mouth<>nose seal was required to be demonstrated.

On my OWI course and exam I and other members of my branch refused to actually make contact and we were accommodated.
This even went to the top at BSAC and came back that if you don't do the seal then there should be additional manikin training to compensate and the water training should be as near the real thing as possible. We were told you will NOT fail if you refuse to make contact but the instructor should be satisfied in your ability to do it/teach it if it really happens.
We have never taught it in our branch due to the possible risk of infection.

Derek Perry
D.O. Cosmos S.A.C.

Thank you for the response

regards

Tony

[dave woodward]

If we were really worried about infections, then surely you would get that much interest from the old farts in teaching the young impressionable girls in Uni clubs how to .... ;)

Dave


The following is from BSAC 'Safe diving practices'.

***********
When demonstrating or practising AV in the water, a proper seal (usually nose) should be made. A simulated seal is not sufficient to give the sense of realism required, and does not guarantee a successful acquisition of technique. The use of a manikin is strongly recommended when practising AV on land.
***********

I have a vague recollection of a suggestion that we cannot insist that a trainee (or anyone else) actually performs a real nose seal during a training or assessment exercise.

This make sense to me as there is a risk of infection and current first aid training emphasises the use of barriers when contact with bodily fluids is a possibility.

If one conducts a 'Risk Assessment' of the proposed activity. It could be argued that mouth to nose contact may present unacceptable risk.

Any Thoughts?

[zineparker]

Having got my ILS manual in front of me - "only 15 documented cases of CPR related infection have been recorded, mostly of bacteria such as Neisseria meningitidis. Transmission of hepatitis B virus, hepatitis C virus, or cytomegalovirus during CPR has not been reported." Sadly they don't give any idea as to how many cases of resucitation / the time period this was over.

I would like to think that our trainees are smart enough to recognise when ventilations aren't working but having tried neck extension / airway management etc. for real it is nice to have done it when it isn't an emergency and to have met some of the pitfalls.

Zine

(medical student)