who can instruct [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

TerryH

26-09-2003, 14:20

ok gang quick one

i have been telling my branch they cannot use divers who have not been on the I.F.C to lecture.which they were going to do.

and once they have become an assistant instructor they can then give lectures with a N.Q.I in attendance.

Correct, it's an ACI/ADI minimum.

and

They can give lectures "under supervison", So a Sport/ADI will
need to be watched, but hardly an Advanced/1st class/ADI.
Common sense and DO/TO discresion.

TerryH

Adrian Kelland

26-09-2003, 14:23

ok gang quick one

i have been telling my branch they cannot use divers who have not been on the I.F.C to lecture.which they were going to do.

and once they have become an assistant instructor they can then give lectures with a N.Q.I in attendance.

am i correct in saying this?

You're correct Mark

Only instructors can instruct.

The old ITC route is Ok, don't forget.

Adrian

markbsac

26-09-2003, 17:41

:=ok gang quick one
:=
:=i have been telling my branch they cannot use divers who have not been on the I.F.C to lecture.which they were going to do.
:=
:=and once they have become an assistant instructor they can then give lectures with a N.Q.I in attendance.
:=
:=am i correct in saying this?

You're correct Mark

Only instructors can instruct.

The old ITC route is Ok, don't forget.

Adrian

thanks guys

just need this to sort it out in my branch...as im one of the A/D O.W.I in the branch they decided to let a sports diver who had not done a I.F.C or old I.T.C to give lectures i have told them this must not happen.but i am encourageing all those that want to instruct to attend the I.F.C and i will give them 100% help and encouragement.

mark

dave covey

27-09-2003, 12:41

:=Only instructors can instruct.

Here's a tongue in cheek observation, but nontheless true....

I first dived in 1980 under the old class 3 sylabus & changed when Sportsdiver etc came in (1985-ish). At that point you could instruct up to your own level without a piece of paper saying so......

By 1990 BSAC had "invented" the INSTRUCTOR & there was a scramble to obtain said paperwork, resulting in a 3 year waiting list. I obtained "assistant instructor" but found it impossible to progress as there were no vacancies anywhere.

I served in HM forces from 1977 until 2000. In that time I instructed in a multitude of sins, inc Small Arms & Explosives. I later worked for the probation service as a community service supervisor-If I can motivate 13 offenders (during a world cup game)surely I must be able to TEACH?

I realise theres H&S etc to consider but it struck me as bizarre.

Now, where was I? Oh yeah, "I left you in this positionnnnnnnnn"!!

Dave Covey, Koh Samui, Thailand, www.divesamui.org

Paul Oliver

28-09-2003, 22:04

86C

Thats Drill, since when were you a drill pig?

Regards

Paul

dave covey

30-09-2003, 13:39

86C

Thats Drill, since when were you a drill pig?

Regards

Paul

.....since they sent me on the course in 94-ish. Rick Garcia was on with me. On day 2 I had a show parade for having hair on my carpet. As the RSM approached he asked....

"Wot you 'ere for?"

" 'air on me carpet sir" I replied

"Well, where is it?" he growled, to which I replied "I searched everywhere but couldn't find no HARE, will THIS do?" & gave him a RABBIT i'd shot the night before!! Rick (& the entire course)fell about laughing & they left me alone for the rest of the course!

I couldn't take that sort of thing seriously, I pulled another stunt with 2 kippers and a can of black paint but i'll save that for the reunion!

I realise we're off topic but my advice to anyone attending a course at AADW (pirbright)is remove all badges & play the "grey man". Rick kept his Commando dagger on & was given EVERYTHING! I wore cooks whites (in the mess kitchen) & told 'em I was a CHEF......until the last day!!

86c

Paul Oliver

30-09-2003, 19:35

Dave

And if it was now and the observation:-

"Covey you need a hair cut"

Reply! "Well thank you very much sir, you have made my day, can i buy you a beer for that later" Or something like that.

Dive Safe

Paul

dave covey

01-10-2003, 13:00

"Well thank you very much sir, you have made my day, can i buy you a beer for that later" Or something like that.

...cheers mate. On the subject of political correctness I feel i'd better return to my original point. There are;

a) Dive instructors that lack the charisma/confidence to teach. The 'knock on' effect often results in students making preventable mistakes at a later stage.

b) Non Instructors that have the ability to maintain interest/put their point accross but are prevented from doing so by a piece of paper!

Take care,

86c

Andy Nye

01-10-2003, 15:49

b) Non Instructors that have the ability to maintain interest/put their point accross but are prevented from doing so by a piece of paper!

Take care,

86c

Exactly

Andy

steve swift

01-10-2003, 19:41

b) Non Instructors that have the ability to maintain interest/put their point accross but are prevented from doing so by a piece of paper!
:=

And have to pay good money (with no chance of getting it back) to get the piece of paper to then have the privilege of giving up every moment of their free time use said piece of paper.....

matt

01-10-2003, 22:44

:=
:=b) Non Instructors that have the ability to maintain interest/put their point accross but are prevented from doing so by a piece of paper!
:=:=

And have to pay good money (with no chance of getting it back) to get the piece of paper to then have the privilege of giving up every moment of their free time use said piece of paper.....

Well here's a subject close to my heart!

Right the problem is; insurers/landsharks/etc demand that only instructors teach diving. A wholesale return to DLs and ADs teaching just aint gonna happen.

So how do we go about keeping the paper pushers happy whilst sensibly involving divers that are capable and not adverse to teaching, but who are not (yet) interested in being instructors?

Has anyone put any thought into this? Does anyone have a practical suggestion?

Regards
Matt

terryh

02-10-2003, 01:19

So how do we go about keeping the paper pushers happy whilst sensibly involving divers that are capable and not adverse to teaching, but who are not (yet) interested in being instructors?

Has anyone put any thought into this? Does anyone have a practical suggestion?

Just one which may sort of help, but would need BSAC to do a little work.

We have a SALT table for divers why not one for Instructors?

In our club we have RYA powerboat Instructors, RNLI cox,
1st Officers & an Engineering Officer.

Although in the process of getting there, only one of this lot
are ADI's or NQI's. So why not have a SALT table that allows
eg: The RYA guys to teach chartwork etc.

How about paramedics/nurses/doctors teaching first aid & O2
Admin etc?

Have 2x ASA Lifeguards/Lifesaving Inst.
Cant they do all the non-scuba stuff in BSAC lifesaver?

Wouldnt the Engineering Officer be ace at doing Boat Engines,
Compressor operations & Maintanance etc?

So Imagine a list of BSAC approved professional qualifications
that are recognised as being of a sufficient level to be able to teach.

Might not be exactly what your looking for Matt, but it may
help (it does need BSAC's sancion though).

Or.

Maybe somebody at BSAC would like to comment on .....

You actually let anybody teach anything.
Its accepted that there are standards for teaching which say
X grade, teaches Y, but that only applies to a course.

If I want to get one of my RYA guys to explain charts to
students on a DL course than as long as none of that counts
towards the grade and nothing is signed up than your non-Inst
can do what he likes.

The best bit, is when your student does the actual lecture,
it is an absolute doddle, because your non-Inst has already
done the groundwork.

Of course you have to ensure that the guy giving the lecture
is competent, but that applies to all DO/TO/Instructors anyway.

Doesnt quite give cart-blanche to a free for all, but does allow a resonable compromise.

Rgds
TerryH

dave covey

02-10-2003, 10:25

Doesnt quite give cart-blanche to a free for all, but does allow a resonable compromise.

Rgds
TerryH

...thanks to everyone for the feedback. It's good to see I can still 'lob the odd grenade'lol

Paul Oliver

02-10-2003, 23:43

86C

And your aim is as bad as ever!!!!

M10A

BSACHQ

03-10-2003, 10:59

To All,
The answers to most of the queries brought up in this thread can be answered from information available on the BSAC website and in particular the syllabus section at <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techservs/syllabus/" >http://www.bsac.org/techservs/syllabus/</a> that outlines the instructor requiremetns for each course.

The one aspect that has been changed is for the O2 Admin course, where the approved instructor requirement has been removed. Provided an NQI has attended the O2 course as a student, they are are able to teach the course. This also applies to the PRM course.

All instruction must be done by an NQI but there is nothing wrong in asking experts to give informal guidance to members on the subjects they are experts or qualified in. This can only be beneficial to the membership.

With regards to the crossing over of instructor grades, the BSAC has been successfully operating a crossover process for many years, enabling qualified instructors from other agencies to gain their OWI qualification. Information on this procedure and other crossover processes can be found on the website at <a href="http://www.bsac.org/learn/iip.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/learn/iip.htm</a>

I hope this is of use in providing answers to your queries but as always, if you require further details, please contact us at HQ.

Alistair Reynolds
BSAC Technical Manager

terryh

03-10-2003, 11:32

With regards to the crossing over of instructor grades, the BSAC has been successfully operating a crossover process for many years, enabling qualified instructors from other agencies to gain their OWI qualification. Information on this procedure and other crossover processes can be found on the website at <a href="http://www.bsac.org/learn/iip.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/learn/iip.htm</a>

Hi Al, nice to see that we are getting HQ feedback on these
fora at last. Can I suggest that a better FAQ page be set
up or some sort of index of your replies. This amongst many
topics comes up regularyly you need to have it accessable once
a definative HQ statement is made.

Onto the topic....

If I am an RYA Instructor who is say an Ocean Diver. Although
fully qualified and dare I say it more knowledgable than a BSAC
NQI on charts/Boats etc, I cannot teach. I have to go right
through the whole Diver/Instructor scheme to get to a point where I can do what I can do NOW.

So why not a SALT for Instructors.
Something on the lines of
RYA Inst. Can teach Chartwork sections of DL.
Lifesaving Inst. Can teach all surface (non-scuba) elements
of Lifesaver.

and so on.

We have many professional people in our ranks who have skills
and knowledge that exceed those needed by an NQI to teach.
We are missing a greta opportunity by insisting (wrongly) thet they be an NQI. You still have to be an Instructor, just not a
BSAC one.

TerryH

BSACHQ

03-10-2003, 16:06

Hi Terry,
Thank you for your response which I found very supportive.

Your suggestions are well-founded and I will pass them on to the appropriate groups for consideration.

With regards to your RYA Instructor; an RYA Powerboat Level II instructor can in fact instruct on a BSAC Boathandling course but cannot be the Chief Instructor unless they are an NQI. This is explained in the Boathandling course syllabus.

Perhaps that answers your query and solves the problem for you, as an RYA instructor. We could use you after all.

Alistair Reynolds
BSAC Technical Manager

crofty

07-10-2003, 12:31

:=With regards to the crossing over of instructor grades, the BSAC has been successfully operating a crossover process for many years, enabling qualified instructors from other agencies to gain their OWI qualification. Information on this procedure and other crossover processes can be found on the website at <a href="http://www.bsac.org/learn/iip.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/learn/iip.htm</a>
:

Onto the topic....

If I am an RYA Instructor who is say an Ocean Diver. Although
fully qualified and dare I say it more knowledgable than a BSAC
NQI on charts/Boats etc, I cannot teach. I have to go right
through the whole Diver/Instructor scheme to get to a point where I can do what I can do NOW.

So why not a SALT for Instructors.
Something on the lines of
RYA Inst. Can teach Chartwork sections of DL.
Lifesaving Inst. Can teach all surface (non-scuba) elements
of Lifesaver.

and so on.

We have many professional people in our ranks who have skills
and knowledge that exceed those needed by an NQI to teach.
We are missing a greta opportunity by insisting (wrongly) thet they be an NQI. You still have to be an Instructor, just not a
BSAC one.

TerryH

Now that is a great idea!

terryh

07-10-2003, 16:18

:=
:=We have many professional people in our ranks who have
skills
:=and knowledge that exceed those needed by an NQI to teach.
:=We are missing a greta opportunity by insisting (wrongly)
thet they be an NQI. You still have to be an Instructor, just
not a
:=BSAC one.
:=
:=TerryH

Now that is a great idea!
:=

Here's a great example. The Dean of the Maritime Studies
Department (PhD etc.etc.) is also a BSAC Advanced and has
offered to teach the odd theory module.

Yet I have to say no, even though I can say yes to a newly
qualified Sport Diver with two days attendance on a weekend
course (no exam).

TerryH

John Williams

07-10-2003, 20:39

:=:=
:=:=We have many professional people in our ranks who have
skills
:=:=and knowledge that exceed those needed by an NQI to teach.
:=:=We are missing a greta opportunity by insisting (wrongly)
thet they be an NQI. You still have to be an Instructor, just
not a
:=:=BSAC one.
:=:=
:=:=TerryH
:=

Not true!

If you read Alistair's reply you will note that he says that there is nothing wrong with using experts to help teach BSAC courses.

Your Dean would be MORE than welcome to contribute. However - to ensure that a BSAC course is aimed at DIVERS and does not conflict with BSAC training methods and ideology the Dean should not be the Course Boss. (Many experts are so thoroughly enthralled - and enthralling - when given the opportunity that they teach all of the must, should and could info (remember your ITC/IFC) instead of concentrating on the essentials and how they relate to diving)

Next time your Dean wants to help out on a course - please invite me to contribute too (I might learn something from him/her)

John
BSAC AD/AI 2574
Ex Navigation Officer HMS Striker
RYA Coastal Skipper
Chartwork and Position Fixing SDC Lead Instructor in 3 days time (wo would have loved your Dean to be available to join my staff)

Andy Nye

08-10-2003, 08:36

John
BSAC AD/AI 2574
Ex Navigation Officer HMS Striker
RYA Coastal Skipper

**** Surely an Navoff is a RYA Yachtmaster at the very least, ? 15 + medical + PSS + passport photo , gets you a commecial endorsement ****

Chartwork and Position Fixing SDC Lead Instructor in 3 days time (wo would have loved your Dean to be available to join my staff)

terryh

08-10-2003, 12:31

If you read Alistair's reply you will note that he says that there is nothing wrong with using experts to help teach BSAC courses.

Your Dean would be MORE than welcome to contribute. However - to ensure that a BSAC course is aimed at DIVERS and does not conflict with BSAC training methods and ideology the Dean should not be the Course Boss. (Many experts are so thoroughly enthralled - and enthralling - when given the opportunity that they teach all of the must, should and could info (remember your ITC/IFC) instead of concentrating on the essentials and how they relate to diving)

Next time your Dean wants to help out on a course - please invite me to contribute too (I might learn something from him/her)

Here we go again.

Let's look at the BSAC website which is also repeated as part
of the BOH: <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba2.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba2.htm</a>

This is the official documentation that is included as part of
our risk asessment and is our "bible" to ensure we dont ever
get near any liabilty issues. The relevant authorities that we
have to awnser to, demand that we follow this doctrine.

So tell me where it says we can use professional teachers (like
our Dean) to teach?

As you say, in this case teaching abilty is not in doubt, but
if we change the parameters slightly, what then?

If she is a Dean/Sport Diver does that mean she can teach upto
her level or below it (Ocean)? In fact should it be a
requirement that non-Instructors (in the ADI/NQI sense) should
be at least an Advanced diver before we even think of using
them as teachers?

We both know that these individuals can teach, but I think that
it needs a bit more clarity from BSAC then a post on a forum
page before we do.

I'd like to see something like ......

"Professional educators are acceptable to teach specific
elements of BSAC theory courses, providing their diver grade is
suitably advanced. All such instruction should be under the
direct supervison of the course boss and with the full approval
of the branch DO."

Add that to the standards for Instruction page and we would
enable quite a few pro-educators.

TerryH

Paul Oliver

08-10-2003, 22:53

terryh

09-10-2003, 01:45

Terry,

I have been trying not to reply but i feel i need to chip in.

Your points as ever are very true, valid and relevant, but why not just sit back a bit and look at it. Whilst you are trying hard to clarify [MODERATED], the govening body needs to conform to lots of rules. As do we.

But for the sake of a quality lecture from an expert outside the qualifications frame why not just [MODERATED] do it. If i had this option i would certainly attend out of interest. As i do for lectures by Assistant instructors and newly qualified instructors. At the end i will add any relevant points, then as i attended and i am happy i sign off the lesson.

I have no DO problems with this 'cos thats me, i doubt you will as well.

[MODERATED]

Regards and good luck in your quest for beurocratic perfection.

Paul

[Moderators Note : Valid responses to post can be made without resorting to spelling designed to bypass our systems and personal attacks on other forum participants. For this reason I have moderated this message leaving the relevant content intact. KL]

Ahh Keith I'm going to wonder what he said now!!!

Paul. As you are probably aware from previous posts, you know
we are a Uni club. Unlike other "normal" BSAC clubs we are
under the constant threat of closure if we dont follow the
doctrine as set out by Sport & Rec, Students Union and Faculty.

In nearly all cases that simply means following to the letter
the rules and recommendations of BSAC. As long as we do that
they leave us alone and the club goes from strength to strength.

But .......
We have to prepare annual risk assessments and in that provide
evidence of Instructor grades and there suitabilty to teach.
This obviuously includes the page from the website or BOH.

Now we have a Dean, a member of the faculty, offering to
help. Don't you think that I need to be very careful and ensure
that such help is OK by BSAC standards?
Isnt the very fact that it is a member of the very heiracy that
can close us down enough reason for making sure that we have
the correct BSAC paperwork?

As you say in a normal club you would just do it.
Many BSAC Special branches dont have that luxury.

TerryH
(Seriously toned down for Keith's benefit)

David Martin

09-10-2003, 12:28

Paul. As you are probably aware from previous posts, you know
we are a Uni club. Unlike other "normal" BSAC clubs we are
under the constant threat of closure if we dont follow the
doctrine as set out by Sport & Rec, Students Union and Faculty.

In nearly all cases that simply means following to the letter
the rules and recommendations of BSAC. As long as we do that
they leave us alone and the club goes from strength to strength.

But .......
We have to prepare annual risk assessments and in that provide
evidence of Instructor grades and there suitabilty to teach.
This obviuously includes the page from the website or BOH.

Terry.

I'm also in (2) Uni Clubs.

I would have assumed that your "Sport & Rec, Students Union and Faculty" would have been able to accept an adequately prepared risk assessment, using some degree of common-sense.
If your faculty will not accept this, I sympathise.

As a method of jumping through some hoops: why not have your instructor say "I {instuctor) am giving you the lecture on (subject) I now present our "visual aid" ", then hand over to the lecturer, with the instructor ensuring that the content is as per BSAC?

David

Paul Oliver

09-10-2003, 16:32

keith

Sorry for causing you more work, ahh i dont do clever bypasses, more like poor spelling. I will not post when drunk again - this week anyway.

Regards

Paul

terryh

09-10-2003, 17:02

I would have assumed that your "Sport & Rec, Students Union and Faculty" would have been able to accept an adequately prepared risk assessment, using some degree of common-sense.

Keyboard !!!!!!!!!
You really shouldnt use the words common-sense in the same
sentence as .....

Look at it this way. Uni's stand all fall in every respect by
there reputation. Look at the schools, colleges etc who have
had serious incidents involving students. Do we remember there
academic acheivements or that a schoolboy was drowned in a
river?

I have every simpathy for those in authority, that have to
justify there actions, after all isnt that what we would have
to do as well?

So if you have almost no idea as to what is or isnt safe
(example below) then you need an official body (BSAC) to do
that for you. That means that for almost every variant you need
a piece of paper.

It might seem bureaucratic (it is), but if you knew absolutley
nothing about scuba wouldnt you want a piece of paper?

TerryH

PS:
Example: On a rare occaison when we managed some funding, we
put in for a much needed O2 analiser. We were told in no
uncertain terms that having pure O2 was dangerous, a fire risk
and that no such claim would be entertained. This was all on
the advice of an OW diver who convinced one of the committees
that he new about diving.
Took a bit of diplomacy and a very straight face to explain
that he was a little mistaken as to the concept.

John Williams

09-10-2003, 22:10

John Williams

09-10-2003, 22:16

:=John
:=BSAC AD/AI 2574
:=Ex Navigation Officer HMS Striker
:=RYA Coastal Skipper

**** Surely an Navoff is a RYA Yachtmaster at the very least, ? 15 + medical + PSS + passport photo , gets you a commecial endorsement ****

Ah - but now I have to admit that HMS Striker was not a proper navy boat ...but a University Royal Navy Unit training vessel & that I was appointed "unofficial" navigation officer and navigation training mentor by the Commanding Officer and not by the admiralty.

Anyway - I've used my navigation skills in the URNU, for diving, for sailing and for hiking/orienteering. I enjoy using them - but have never felt the need to commercialise them.

John
"Busted" Navigation Officer

terryh

10-10-2003, 13:09

INSTRUCTORS
Chief Instructor to be a BSAC Open Water Instructor, or person of proven instructing ability who holds a qualification in navigation such as RYA/DTP Yachtmaster. Other Instructors (BSAC NQIs) as required to the satisfaction of Chief Instructor.

Direct quote from the "Offcial" BSAC syllabus for Chartwork & Position Fixing from this site.

Great so we an use a RYA/DTP Yachtmaster, but can you tell me
if I can use: Multihull Level 1, Multihull Level 2, Keelboat
Level 1, Keelboat Level 2, Helmsman, Powerboat Level 1,
Powerboat Level 2, Safety Boat, Advanced Powerboat, Competent
Crew, Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper, Offshore Racing Crew,
Watchleader,

Or how about: Dinghy, Keelboat, Multihull, Advanced, Racing,
Coastal, Senior, Powerboat, Personal Watercraft, Advanced
Coastal, RYA Cruising Instructors.

In other words - please use your discretion and common sense to utilise the expertise available to you whilst ensuring that BSAC standards are maintained and that the content remains relevant to BSAC diving.

Err how would I know that? Using RYA as an example. I'm an OWI
and am certified to teach Chartwork etc. of DL/Adv etc. I can
also "boss" CPF SDC's, but I dont know the syllabus of any
of the above RYA levels and unless I do, with the exception of
the mentioned RYA Yachtmaster, how can I tell?

Jobsworth?, buerocratic? Well yes. Absolutley. If one student
compains we can get closed down, It's that simple.
You have the luxury of working in grey areas, we do not.

TerryH

matt

10-10-2003, 15:48

Jobsworth?, buerocratic? Well yes. Absolutley. If one student
compains we can get closed down, It's that simple.
You have the luxury of working in grey areas, we do not.

Terry
I can understand your reticance to use your judgement. How often is this a problem for you? What about ringing BSAC and asking as and when required. You could ask for a fax authorisation if you need it in writting.

Just a thought

terryh

10-10-2003, 16:42

I can understand your reticance to use your judgement. How often is this a problem for you? What about ringing BSAC and asking as and when required. You could ask for a fax authorisation if you need it in writting.

It's really not a problem Matt, more of a way to facilitate
more Instructors and there involvment with the branch then
anything else.

It's just that as an awful lot of coursework is Maritime based,
we get a vast range of students who are genuinly very
knowledgable, to those that think they are!

Yes we could email BSAC every time, but just thought that as we
have parity in other areas, it might not be bad idea to start
thinking of a SALT type table for Instructors.

After all we have the statement that RYA Yachtmasters can do
CPF and that presumably (doesnt say it though) means they
can teach same in DL, but what of other RYA grades and
professional Maritime grades?

Like I say, unlike many other clubs who only have themselves
to awnser to, we cannot afford to have any grey areas.

Rgds
TerryH

John Williams

10-10-2003, 20:36

:=INSTRUCTORS
:=Chief Instructor to be a BSAC Open Water Instructor, or person of proven instructing ability who holds a qualification in navigation such as RYA/DTP Yachtmaster. Other Instructors (BSAC NQIs) as required to the satisfaction of Chief Instructor.
:=
:=Direct quote from the "Offcial" BSAC syllabus for Chartwork & Position Fixing from this site.
:=

Great so we an use a RYA/DTP Yachtmaster, but can you tell me
if I can use: Multihull Level 1, Multihull Level 2, Keelboat
Level 1, Keelboat Level 2, Helmsman, Powerboat Level 1,
Powerboat Level 2, Safety Boat, Advanced Powerboat, Competent
Crew, Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper, Offshore Racing Crew,
Watchleader,

Or how about: Dinghy, Keelboat, Multihull, Advanced, Racing,
Coastal, Senior, Powerboat, Personal Watercraft, Advanced
Coastal, RYA Cruising Instructors.

:=In other words - please use your discretion and common sense to utilise the expertise available to you whilst ensuring that BSAC standards are maintained and that the content remains relevant to BSAC diving.
:=

Err how would I know that? Using RYA as an example. I'm an OWI
and am certified to teach Chartwork etc. of DL/Adv etc. I can
also "boss" CPF SDC's, but I dont know the syllabus of any
of the above RYA levels and unless I do, with the exception of
the mentioned RYA Yachtmaster, how can I tell?

Jobsworth?, buerocratic? Well yes. Absolutley. If one student
compains we can get closed down, It's that simple.
You have the luxury of working in grey areas, we do not.

TerryH

If you - as a BSAC Instructor, teaching a BSAC course - think that others have a valuable contribution to make (and that their contribution will enhance the course and NOT detract from it).

USE THEM!!

It makes absolutely NO difference what was in their original qualification (or even that they have any qualifications...experience is good enough!) - as long as you are happy that they are capable of helping teaching the BSAC syllabus.

It really is that simple...if you think they will add to the course USE THEM!

John

markbsac

10-10-2003, 20:55

:=:=:=
:=:=:=We have many professional people in our ranks who have
:=skills
:=:=:=and knowledge that exceed those needed by an NQI to teach.
:=:=:=We are missing a greta opportunity by insisting (wrongly)
:=thet they be an NQI. You still have to be an Instructor, just
:=not a
:=:=:=BSAC one.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=TerryH
:=:=

Not true!

If you read Alistair's reply you will note that he says that there is nothing wrong with using experts to help teach BSAC courses.

Your Dean would be MORE than welcome to contribute. However - to ensure that a BSAC course is aimed at DIVERS and does not conflict with BSAC training methods and ideology the Dean should not be the Course Boss. (Many experts are so thoroughly enthralled - and enthralling - when given the opportunity that they teach all of the must, should and could info (remember your ITC/IFC) instead of concentrating on the essentials and how they relate to diving)

Next time your Dean wants to help out on a course - please invite me to contribute too (I might learn something from him/her)

John
BSAC AD/AI 2574
Ex Navigation Officer HMS Striker
RYA Coastal Skipper
Chartwork and Position Fixing SDC Lead Instructor in 3 days time (wo would have loved your Dean to be available to join my staff)

VD/BAR AND SCAR !!!!!!! AND YOU YOU MUCKY MATELOT..LOL

Paul Oliver

10-10-2003, 22:05

John

But as we know a RN CO who's Nav Officer hits a rock is going to get a DCM/GCM. So that all runs with the theme of this thread, deligation and acceptance of using best available resources to complete a task/mission.

Nav Safe

Paul

Paul Oliver

10-10-2003, 22:08

John

Well i was going to say i am upset by that, to carry on an old thread but i cannot.

Regards

Paul

Paul Oliver

10-10-2003, 22:13

John

But then i'm far more diplomatic when sober, LOL

Dive Safe

Paul

terryh

10-10-2003, 23:36

If you - as a BSAC Instructor, teaching a BSAC course - think that others have a valuable contribution to make (and that their contribution will enhance the course and NOT detract from it).

USE THEM!!

It makes absolutely NO difference what was in their original qualification (or even that they have any qualifications...experience is good enough!) - as long as you are happy that they are capable of helping teaching the BSAC syllabus.

It really is that simple...if you think they will add to the course USE THEM!

Brilliant idea. So if you could just point me in the direction
of the relevant bits in the BOH, so I can justify it to the SU,
Sport & Rec, Local Authority etc.etc.

Yes really John.

I would like you to find me any BSAC document that says what
you have said above.

TerryH

iainmsmith

11-10-2003, 10:00

:=
:=If you - as a BSAC Instructor, teaching a BSAC course - think that others have a valuable contribution to make (and that their contribution will enhance the course and NOT detract from it).
:=
:=USE THEM!!
:=
:=It makes absolutely NO difference what was in their original qualification (or even that they have any qualifications...experience is good enough!) - as long as you are happy that they are capable of helping teaching the BSAC syllabus.
:=
:=It really is that simple...if you think they will add to the course USE THEM!
:=

Brilliant idea. So if you could just point me in the direction
of the relevant bits in the BOH, so I can justify it to the SU,
Sport & Rec, Local Authority etc.etc.

Yes really John.

I would like you to find me any BSAC document that says what
you have said above.

Terry,

As Course Boss, you are responsible for ensuring that the required content is delivered by the instructors teaching the lessons (as well as ensuring that all the course admin gets done!)

As the instructor for a lesson, you are responsible for ensuring that the specified lesson content is delivered. You are allowed to use whatever visual aids and presentation methods you choose in order to achieve that objective.

So, for the purposes of a lesson, what is the problem with using someone more experienced, more highly trained and more knowledgeable as your "presentation method/visual aid". The instructor is responsible for ensuring that what their teaching is in keeping with the BSAC's (and a wise instructor using a "living visual aid" in this manner will have gone through the lesson with them beforehand to ensure that there are no nasty surprises) and a "Question and Answer" session at the end will confirm that they have picked up the knowledge that they should have done.

If I may (probably mis-) quote from, "A Few Good Men":

Prosecution Lawyer: "Please turn to the page in this book [Rules and Regs for Guantanamo Bay Marine Corps Base] that discusses a 'Code Red?'"

Marine Witness "Uh...I can't."

PL: "So there's no such thing"

Defence Lawyer: "Please turn to the page that tells you where the cookhouse is."

MW: "I can't."

DL (incredulously): "What, you mean that they don't let you Marines eat???"

Iain

terryh

11-10-2003, 12:38

Well there you go Iain believing hollywood again. Hate to
burst your bubble as it was a good film, but the book they
reffered to was the National Marine Rules & Regs and not
specific to Guantamino. There is a whole raft of other
publications, including site maps that would have made sure
the guys got fed.

Mind you that wouldnt have made such a good ending would it?

But ..... You said.

"As Course Boss, you are responsible for ensuring that the
required content is delivered by the instructors teaching the
lessons (as well as ensuring that all the course admin gets
done!)

As the instructor for a lesson, you are responsible for ensuring that the specified lesson content is delivered. You are allowed to use whatever visual aids and presentation methods you choose in order to achieve that objective.

So, for the purposes of a lesson, what is the problem with using someone more experienced, more highly trained and more knowledgeable as your "presentation method/visual aid". The instructor is responsible for ensuring that what their teaching is in keeping with the BSAC's (and a wise instructor using a "living visual aid" in this manner will have gone through the lesson with them beforehand to ensure that there are no nasty surprises) and a "Question and Answer" session at the end will confirm that they have picked up the knowledge that they should have done."

Again please show me where In any "official" BSAC publication
I can effectivily use non-Instructors to teach.

You call them visual aids others may call them Instructors.
Looks like a grey area on another grey area.

TerryH

Mike Halligan

11-10-2003, 16:54

iainmsmith

11-10-2003, 18:08

Well there you go Iain believing hollywood again. Hate to
burst your bubble as it was a good film, but the book they
reffered to was the National Marine Rules & Regs and not
specific to Guantamino. There is a whole raft of other
publications, including site maps that would have made sure
the guys got fed.

Mind you that wouldnt have made such a good ending would it?

That's the problem with analogies (and especially analogies quoted from memory without reference to the primary source!)...push them hard enough and flaws will appear. Nonetheless, I'm sure you know what I was getting at!

"As Course Boss, you are responsible for ensuring that the
required content is delivered by the instructors teaching the
lessons (as well as ensuring that all the course admin gets
done!)

As the instructor for a lesson, you are responsible for ensuring that the specified lesson content is delivered. You are allowed to use whatever visual aids and presentation methods you choose in order to achieve that objective.

So, for the purposes of a lesson, what is the problem with using someone more experienced, more highly trained and more knowledgeable as your "presentation method/visual aid". The instructor is responsible for ensuring that what their teaching is in keeping with the BSAC's (and a wise instructor using a "living visual aid" in this manner will have gone through the lesson with them beforehand to ensure that there are no nasty surprises) and a "Question and Answer" session at the end will confirm that they have picked up the knowledge that they should have done."

Again please show me where In any "official" BSAC publication
I can effectivily use non-Instructors to teach.

I'm sure that you can find the necessary information to support my description of the roles of Course Boss and Instructor. In what way is the use of expert supporting staff inconsistent with such roles?

Iain

terryh

11-10-2003, 18:14

John is right. Precisely how an OWI who is not ABI is to cope with the pratical session, I shudder to think, but that_is_how_the_syllabus_is_written.

How about discussing the whole of the SDC syllabus with the person you believe is as well qualified as a BSAC OWI, and see whether you can agree it is within competence? Then, you (with your OWI ticket) can sit in on the expert's lectures and practical, and maybe learn something.

If it is any help to you, the content looks similar to the RYA Advanced Powerboat Assessment (which requires both Day Skipper Theory and Level 2 Powerboat Assessment before entry) but it's not perhaps so rigorous in its assessment of the student.

If that's no help, please don't bother.

Hi Mike,

Again the problem isnt that we can do this, it's that we have
nothing that says we can. You say that I can make an objective
decision as to the competence of these individuals.

Yep common sense and all that, but that again puts the
responsibilty on me and not BSAC. The relevant authorities
dont give a monkeys about me or what I say. All they want is a
bit of paper that says X grade can teach Y by whatever
organisation controls the sport (or club). As long as they
have that then alls fine and we can get on with teaching.

Now if BSAC list half a dozen or so RYA grades that are ok to
teach say DL chartwork, then I can wave that piece of paper
and happily use them. It's really not that difficult.

Trouble is that most of the replies on here concern regular
branches who have nobody but themselves (or BSAC) to answer
to. I've lost count as to how many times I've said this, but
we dont have that luxury.

I'm not that bothered at the mo as we have more than enough
Instructors. Just seems a shame that this group of talent
is being neglected for want of an A4 bit of paper.

Rgds
TerryH

Mike Halligan

11-10-2003, 19:48

Terry,

OK, so we've the risk-averse Senate syndrome. That's been seen before often enough, and somewhat closer to my home than to yours.

I would suggest that the particular qualifications of the person you have in mind should be set before Jim / Alistair and a ruling obtained that this person
a) cannot,
b) can without supervision,
c) can with (min) OWI supervision,
deliver the syllabus(i) in question.

Thus the additional stresses of University Branch status are resolved, at a level suited to the demands of the funding authority.

Maybe you could inform yourself from a joint RYA/BSAC school to see whether you've a good chance. (I have used a couple and found them really clued up on read-across.)

I don't believe it is worthwhile BSAC quoting a litany of possible alternatives, since the training agencies are numerous, grades available even more so and their content is revised frequently. I doubt we can justify a full-time job maintaining read-across for the number of enquiries dealt with.

HTH

Mike