Ocean Diver Paper "D" !! (FAO TerryH, Mike Halligan, Philip Smith & Simon Marchant)

[Lindsey Doyle]

Hi,
Particularly to those 4 guys whose names I put in the thread name!
I don't want to start a discussion, just need help if anyone can offer it. (Got your names from searching previous pages on the subject of writing your own test papers - you all mentioned doing just this).
2 of our trainees have failed the OD exam twice & saw the third as a mock.
We'd like them to have a third go at a similar style paper, but don't have time to write one by Thursday when they'd ideally retake (don't want to string this out unnecessarily!).
I've never known anyone fail more than twice, so hope this will be their last attempt!! We've given them a lot of input re revision.
As you know, BSAC still haven't made any papers available for purchase so it'd be GREAT if someone could help us out....not sure how we could reciprocate (used to swap papers in the old days!).
PLEA: BSAC please enter all the questions (90 for OD) onto a database so you can generate new papers....can't be that hard to do....whereas it is for us as the CD is read-only. It'd be well-worth ?6 for the time it'd save us alone.
Thank you! Lindsey.

[Andy Nye]

Wouldn't you think that if the exams are being failed at this rate, instead of a retest, just pass them ,,,,

This clearly shows that the INSTRUCTORS are at fault, as lessons are not taken onboard the students to extend the learning process.

Only had a few fail in our club, and when i read them the question, rather them read it ,,, what we found was.


Some of our members couldn't read,so orals were given. But thats about One exam in 20

Andy

[richard scarsbrook]

E-mail me privately and I will send you one.

[Adrian Kelland]

Lindsay

We did a bit of OD training over summer for a couple of people. In their first exam, they failed quite badly, 12 or 13 wrong each. We went though the paper with them. The errors were spread over the whole sylabus. They went back and revised for a week, then took the B paper. Both passed, 1 or 2 wrong answers. We did not use a paper as a mock.

Did you analyse the wrong answers, were deco table questions all or mostly wrong for example? There could be issues with an instructor or 2 to be corrected. If 2 failed twice and others passed first time, have you checked that the retakes can read properly? A sensitive subject, but it does exist. Was one relectant to take the paper? Think about how you might want to do the paper orally in such a case.

I know a very experienced diver (AD) who has a lot of experience of diving and associated skills, yet that diver will run a mile from writing anything down. I don't know why, but it doesn't really matter, it does not interfere.

Spend a little time trying to work out why they failed twice, rather than just keep on putting papers in front of them until they pass.

Adrian

[Mike Halligan]

Hi, Lindsey,

Sorry, I can't help you. I got round to examining the three sample OD papers only recently and found them completely consistent with both the Interactive Learning site and the Instructor Manual (I'm still saving for the Student Pack, I can buy a weekend's diving for that price in NZ). I realised that OD and SD candidates should not have access to the CD ROM. Therefore, I decided I needn't develop more OD or SD papers.

I noticed, BTW, several questions repeated between the three papers, so that gives a stock somewhat less than 90. Even so, I guess I could re-sort them once I figured out how many questions per lesson, etc.

In previous discussions I wrote about observed reversal in pass rates (7:3 became 3:7) on introduction of the CD / SD syllabus and about practice papers solving the issue for us.

We are talking here about "must-know" data, without which I would be reluctant to take people on open water OD training dives. A candidate who fails twice back to back has no right to see the third opportunity as a mock. Are you sure they're not taking the . . . . ?

If you get nowhere in your quest, I'd give them a final fling at the first one they failed.

Sorry,

Mike

[TerryH]

Hi,
Particularly to those 4 guys whose names I put in the thread name!
I don't want to start a discussion, just need help if anyone can offer it. (Got your names from searching previous pages on the subject of writing your own test papers - you all mentioned doing just this).
2 of our trainees have failed the OD exam twice & saw the third as a mock.
We'd like them to have a third go at a similar style paper, but don't have time to write one by Thursday when they'd ideally retake (don't want to string this out unnecessarily!).
I've never known anyone fail more than twice, so hope this will be their last attempt!! We've given them a lot of input re revision.
As you know, BSAC still haven't made any papers available for purchase so it'd be GREAT if someone could help us out....not sure how we could reciprocate (used to swap papers in the old days!).
PLEA: BSAC please enter all the questions (90 for OD) onto a database so you can generate new papers....can't be that hard to do....whereas it is for us as the CD is read-only. It'd be well-worth ?6 for the time it'd save us alone.
Thank you! Lindsey.

Sorry Lindsey, away working and only have access to a laptop
without any BSAC stuff. Too late for tommorow, but will email
you with any re-writes we do.

Rgds
TerryH

[Lindsey Doyle]

:=Wouldn't you think that if the exams are being failed at this rate, instead of a retest, just pass them ,,,,

No, that would be "detracting" from the requirements etc etc...not allowed to do. Personally I wouldn't abuse my NQI number in this way (signing something I KNEW hadn't been completed to a satisfactory standard).
Also I think it would be insulting to the students....both those knowing they were "cheated" through and those who did pass. Our students can be justifiably proud of their achievements in training.

This clearly shows that the INSTRUCTORS are at fault,

I don't think so....course had usual mix of experienced & new (supervised) lecturers, revision sessions etc.

...as lessons are not taken onboard the students to extend the learning process.

? Sorry, don't understand this.


Only had a few fail in our club, and when i read them the question, rather them read it ,,, what we found was.


Some of our members couldn't read,so orals were given. But thats about One exam in 20

We only have a few "failures" (2 out of 6 this time), everyone has another go, then if fail again, I do an oral....BUT I NEED ANOTHER PAPER FOR THIS!!! That's what I asked for!!!(NOT a discussion..)
As it happens, this is our 2nd OD course, no-one on 1st course needed a 3rd exam (all saw one paper for mock & 1 or 2 more for exam...).
As we know our students well, we know they can read, but accept they don't show full potential at "written" exams, hence the plan to do it orally.

[Lindsey Doyle]

We did a bit of OD training over summer for a couple of people. In their first exam, they failed quite badly, 12 or 13 wrong each. We went though the paper with them. The errors were spread over the whole sylabus.

We found similar.

They went back and revised for a week, then took the B paper. Both passed, 1 or 2 wrong answers.

Yes, I think B is the most straightforward.

Did you analyse the wrong answers,

Yes, of course! (& deco tables were fine, actually)

There could be issues with an instructor or 2 to be corrected.

Don't think so...I had considered this.

If 2 failed twice and others passed first time, have you checked that the retakes can read properly?
Yes, we know our students well & don't ask them to take exam if they don't get on ok with mock...this is final check they can read etc.

Spend a little time trying to work out why they failed twice, rather than just keep on putting papers in front of them until they pass.

Thanks for the advice, but the reason I DIDN'T want to start a discussion was that we have followed all recommended procedures.
They certainly have NOT had papers repeatedly given...mock was late July, 1st failure early Aug, 2nd failure a few weeks later (due to hols). Plenty of interactive revision/support given.
I was TO for 3 years and set a lot of exams (rough estimate over 100)...we always give them a 2nd go if they fail, then step in if needed with oral exam...no-one's ever not managed to show required standard by then. (I like them to show they can apply knowledge to diving topics, not just rote learn answers to questions).
In this particular case, I have analysed how they tackle the questions...one tends to rush & chooses first answer that looks ok, other is just nervous I think. Both perform better orally, so that's how I'll deliver this next (& last!) exam.
Didn't have this problem before new DTP as could buy papers from HQ, and regularly used 4 different ones.
Previously I have had great satisfaction in successfully coaching people who were very poor at maths, had English as a foreign language, were dyslexic etc.
We are certainly NOT an exam factory!

[Lindsey Doyle]

I noticed, BTW, several questions repeated between the three papers, so that gives a stock somewhat less than 90.

Yes, actually I'd noticed that too!

Even so, I guess I could re-sort them once I figured out how many questions per lesson, etc.

Great if you could....

about practice papers solving the issue for us.

Yes...we used one of the 3 as a mock. They don't sit real exam until do ok on mock!!

We are talking here about "must-know" data, without which I would be reluctant to take people on open water OD training dives.

I agree...Although they now don't have to take it until last on the course... !

A candidate who fails twice back to back has no right to see the third opportunity as a mock.

?? They had one mock, FIRST, then have sat 2 different exam papers. Next will be an oral exam (need new paper for that), as they aren't succeeding the "standard" way, we step in and adapt materials to suit needs.

Thanks for your advice.:=

[Lindsey Doyle]

Thank you in particular to Terry & Richard who have offered precisely the practical help I'd requested.

[TerryH]

Thank you in particular to Terry & Richard who have offered precisely the practical help I'd requested.

No problems Lyndsey.

Part of our Campus is Warsash Maritime College, so many of
our students are RYA power boat Instructors or yachtmasters etc.
We even have 1st officers and engineering officers.

Imagine the fun we have when doing questions around
tides/charts etc!!!!!

Worse than wrong, I would say laughably inept, but hey that's
what we expect from BSAC.

TerryH

[Andy Nye]

Same here terry,

Deep sea pilot, to which teachs chartwork his way 8-)
2 yachtmaster commercials.
HM Forces with boat handling tickets

The list is endless with quail's & experience

[Adrian Kelland]

Hi Lorraine

Thanks for the reply. I glad you had already done that I covered. I know there are people who will just keep throwing papers at students until they pass, without considering if the instruction may be the issue...

100 exams in 3 years, oh to even have a fraction of that many ;-)

Regards

Adrian

[Philip Smith]

Hi Lindsey,

Particularly to those 4 guys whose names I put in the thread name!
I don't want to start a discussion, just need help if anyone can offer it.

Sorry not to be able to help in time -- just back from a fortnight away. If you let me know your e-mail address, I can send you some material, if still useful.

Philip Smith