DL Qualifying Dives - before or after training?

[David Walker]

I'm going to be starting Dive Leader when I get back to Uni in October, but am diving over the summer and I want to know if I can count those dives (which will be ~30m from a boat) as qualifying dives for my Dive Leader?
When i'm at my Uni club, I rarely get the chance to go deeper than 20m or do boat dives, so if I can i'd like to get some of these signed off now, before i've done the DL theory and open water stuff.
This diving over the summer will be with an OWI/Advanced Diver, so he is able to sign them off if its allowed. Everything I can find doesn't mention the order these need to be done in, so I assume its OK.

Thanks

David

[PeteM]

I'm going to be starting Dive Leader when I get back to Uni in October, but am diving over the summer and I want to know if I can count those dives (which will be ~30m from a boat) as qualifying dives for my Dive Leader?
When i'm at my Uni club, I rarely get the chance to go deeper than 20m or do boat dives, so if I can i'd like to get some of these signed off now, before i've done the DL theory and open water stuff.
This diving over the summer will be with an OWI/Advanced Diver, so he is able to sign them off if its allowed. Everything I can find doesn't mention the order these need to be done in, so I assume its OK.
:

From the instructor manual
The Dive Leader syllabus includes Open Water lessons and experience dives which should total minimum of 20 dives and 600 mins underwater time since qualifying as a Sports Diver.
To ensure that students receive experience in a range of conditions the open water dives must include at least 5 conditions from the following.....[snip]
Only one of the above conditions may be logged per dive.

Of the twenty dives
- at least six should be carried out from boats
- on at least eight the student should act as dive leader
- at least ten show depth experience greater than 25m

That's it - however I personally will not sign anyone for the dive leadership experience dives unless they have already had DO2 and DO3 signed off on the basis you can not practise something until you have been taught it.

HTH

Pete

[David Walker]

:

From the instructor manual
The Dive Leader syllabus includes Open Water lessons and experience dives which should total minimum of 20 dives and 600 mins underwater time since qualifying as a Sports Diver.
To ensure that students receive experience in a range of conditions the open water dives must include at least 5 conditions from the following.....[snip]
Only one of the above conditions may be logged per dive.

Of the twenty dives
- at least six should be carried out from boats
- on at least eight the student should act as dive leader
- at least ten show depth experience greater than 25m

That's it - however I personally will not sign anyone for the dive leadership experience dives unless they have already had DO2 and DO3 signed off on the basis you can not practise something until you have been taught it.


So does that mean I can do them at any time, before or after then? That is basically the same as what i've read, but to me it doesn't seem to clearly say when these dives have to be done in relation to the rest of the DL qualification.

I assume it means it can all be done together, and DL can be signed off once all training and these qualification dives have been done.

So basically, I can get the dives i'm doing now signed off as part of DL?

Sorry if i'm reading this completely wrong.

David

[Mike Halligan]

So does that mean I can do them at any time, before or after then? That is basically the same as what i've read, but to me it doesn't seem to clearly say when these dives have to be done in relation to the rest of the DL qualification.

I assume it means it can all be done together, and DL can be signed off once all training and these qualification dives have been done.

So basically, I can get the dives i'm doing now signed off as part of DL?

David,

I believe my DO and I agree with Peter's post, in which case you would be thought slightly off-beam in my Branch.

The boat dives, the amount and variety of diving experience and the depth progression have no pre-condition beyond qualification as SD. They have no relevance either, until you decide to engage in the pursuit of the DL qualification. For this you will need instruction, both theory and practical.

There are issues of sequencing over the practical leadership of others. I would not sign up (and if I did my DO would not accept) leadership experience recorded prior to delivery of the relevant theory lesson. Until then, you are a leading buddy within a pair of similarly qualified buddies. (Let's forget SD/OD pairs for now.)

Those eight dives would have to be conducted after the lesson is given. The similarity of the diving undertaken to the general diving of the Branch also comes into play when the DO is considering the 8 dives.

This is IMHO something you should be discussing with your DO before embarking on DL. I would recommend you do not approach the DO with your interpretation but rather ask for his/hers.

HTH,

Mike

[andy botten]

I will have to read the manual again!
But my take was the boat dives & depth dives are the ones that count towards the 600 minutes.
That is they show experience gained since sports diver.

I agree about leading.

[PeteM]

I will have to read the manual again!
But my take was the boat dives & depth dives are the ones that count towards the 600 minutes.
That is they show experience gained since sports diver.

They all do, see my quote of the manual earlier

Pete

[nick kay]

Sorry, why do the 12 dives where you're not acting as a DL require you to have completed the DL lectures?

1. Providing you've done the necessary depth progression dives since the end of SD, you're qualified to dive to 35m (assuming all the necessary safety stuff takes place)
2. You're not qualified to dive past 35m until you've qualified as a DL
3. I would have thought that providing the dives are properly agreed with the DO, within the diver's experience and subsequently logged, then they count?
4. Totally agree that for the "acting as a DL" dives, the relevant DL lectures must have taken place first

[PeteM]

Sorry, why do the 12 dives where you're not acting as a DL require you to have completed the DL lectures?

1. Providing you've done the necessary depth progression dives since the end of SD, you're qualified to dive to 35m (assuming all the necessary safety stuff takes place)
2. You're not qualified to dive past 35m until you've qualified as a DL
3. I would have thought that providing the dives are properly agreed with the DO, within the diver's experience and subsequently logged, then they count?
4. Totally agree that for the "acting as a DL" dives, the relevant DL lectures must have taken place first

Err... that's what everyone is saying....

[TerryH]

Sorry, why do the 12 dives where you're not acting as a DL require you to have completed the DL lectures?

1. Providing you've done the necessary depth progression dives since the end of SD, you're qualified to dive to 35m (assuming all the necessary safety stuff takes place)
2. You're not qualified to dive past 35m until you've qualified as a DL
3. I would have thought that providing the dives are properly agreed with the DO, within the diver's experience and subsequently logged, then they count?
4. Totally agree that for the "acting as a DL" dives, the relevant DL lectures must have taken place first

Your are either doing the DL course or your are not.
Why is it neccesary to see if you can "get round" the course by
using any and all dives?

You are doing lectures and skills to enable you to become a
Dive Leader. What you learn, you apply. That is obviously
right for the Dive Leading dives.

But the same also applies when you are WATCHING the
Instructors. Knowledge gained from lectures etc. is applied
to dives even if guided by an Instructor.

So do the course, then do the dives. KISS.

TerryH

[paul beal]

As I see it, there is no reason why a sports diver who dives after sports and before starting the DL course shouldn't have those dives credited towards Dive Leader. The QRB after all says "dives since sports diver". This is with the exception of the dives you have to act as a dive leader on.

The dives from a boat, below 25m and others (navigation etc)IMO can and perhaps should be done before emabrking on the course. The DL lectures are, after all mostly PRM and O2 admin these days.

Paul

[David Walker]

As I see it, there is no reason why a sports diver who dives after sports and before starting the DL course shouldn't have those dives credited towards Dive Leader. The QRB after all says "dives since sports diver". This is with the exception of the dives you have to act as a dive leader on.

The dives from a boat, below 25m and others (navigation etc)IMO can and perhaps should be done before emabrking on the course. The DL lectures are, after all mostly PRM and O2 admin these days.


Well I've done PRM and O2 already anyway :o) Going off was said earlier, ill try to get in touch with my DO, see what he thinks about it. As I said though, the only reason I want to do this now is that I don't usually do many boat dives or deep dives usually, so i'd rather have them count as i'm doing them now.
The Leading a Dive I can do anywhere, so i'm in no hurry to get any of those signed off and i'll wait until after i've done the lectures and open water lessons.
Anyway, i'll see what my DO says.
Thanks for your help everyone!

David

[edward haynes]

As a DO (which I'm not currently) I would want to know PRIOR to the LD quallifying dives that they where going to take place.
There is no time limit to the LD course (IHMO) the course starts when you either attend the first lecture or do the first LD quallifying dive.

Talking to your DO is recommended.

Edward

[Dave]

I'm going to be starting Dive Leader when I get back to Uni in October, but am diving over the summer and I want to know if I can count those dives (which will be ~30m from a boat) as qualifying dives for my Dive Leader?
When i'm at my Uni club, I rarely get the chance to go deeper than 20m or do boat dives, so if I can i'd like to get some of these signed off now, before i've done the DL theory and open water stuff.
This diving over the summer will be with an OWI/Advanced Diver, so he is able to sign them off if its allowed. Everything I can find doesn't mention the order these need to be done in, so I assume its OK.

Thanks

David

As far as the dives since SD go, any dive can count towards the dives for Dive Leader. Of the dives, unless it changed in new syllabus, at least 5 have to be with you acting as the Dive Leader which logically should take place after having undertaken the training. So, if you are just wanting to count these dives towards the time/# of dives then fine, no worries, as long as you arnt planning to count them as dives acting as a DL

As it says, it is dives since SD, not dives since starting the DL course

Dave

[Paul Oliver]

Bloody *ell

I'm agreeing with Dave totally on all 3 of his responces.

Idea (simple) get the instructor to sign off the dives in your log book saying he feels X objective has been achieved if you have a problem with not sure about your DO.

Agree DL objectives need to be taught first, but how much DL is taught, tend to agree (a lot) with Chris Boardman on this one.

Regards

Paul

[Dave]

Your are either doing the DL course or your are not.
Why is it neccesary to see if you can "get round" the course by
using any and all dives?

There is nothing to get round. As part of the experience level expected, the person undertaking DL has to show that he has completed a number of dives since completing SD.

So do the course, then do the dives. KISS.

Except that an instructor requiring that will be breaching the aspect of not adding to nor detracting from the requirements of a qualification

Dave

[Dave]

Those eight dives would have to be conducted after the lesson is given. The similarity of the diving undertaken to the general diving of the Branch also comes into play when the DO is considering the 8 dives.

Umm, no it shouldn't. As long as the dives comply with that which BSAC have stated as being the requirements, then the person is entitled to that grade. If there are any specific things to do with a particular branch's diving activities, then these should be covered after awarding the grade and not be a pre-condition

Dave

[Mike Halligan]

:=The similarity of the diving undertaken to the general diving of the Branch also comes into play when the DO is considering the 8 dives.

Umm, no it shouldn't. As long as the dives comply with that which BSAC have stated as being the requirements, then the person is entitled to that grade.

BOH, para 4.2.18. The said 8 dives are as much a part of the experience under consideration as any other. DO's discretion, which I will not challenge though you may do as you wish.

Mike

[Dave]

BOH, para 4.2.18. The said 8 dives are as much a part of the experience under consideration as any other. DO's discretion, which I will not challenge though you may do as you wish.


BSAC define the requirements for a qualification, not individual DOs. It is not up to a DO to refuse to accept something that is valid just because it doesn't fit his personal views on what should be done

If a diver has completed that required , then If a branch has any special circumstances which require specific skills beyond that defined, then the person should be awarded the qualification and these areas covered afterwards.

Dave

[edward haynes]

David

30m + diving: As a SD you may have already have been taught/lead to 35m depth, this is all part of your depth progression after qualifying as a SD. Therefore, you are quite at liberty to reach this depth on subsequent dives.

Boat diving: During your CD (most properly OD) or SD training you may well have been taught to dive from a RIB and a hard boat, so once again you don?t require to be taught these skills again, providing you where ?taught? in the first place and didn?t just do the diving.

Getting back to your question.

DL Theory Lesson DT1 covers ?Experience dives? which should ideally be given before you undertake this skill progression.

Having covered >30m and boat dives, the ?Experience dives? element of the DL course covers particular types of diving of which:
* 6 are to be carried out from a boat,
* 10 are to show experience of 25m or greater.

As you can see boat dives and depth in themselves are not DL qualifying elements. The ?Experience dives? element of the DL course require you to be ?taught? (by an NQI or experienced LD for that skill set), as these dives are intended to extend your diving experience above that of a SD. If these dives are signed-off by an individual your Branch Diving Officer doesn?t know, they are at liberty to ensure you are competent and ask you to undertake tuition again.

Contra to common belief, your Branch instructor(s) can select the ?Experience dives? element(s) which are most appropriate to the sort of diving you will encounter with your Branch (Page 5, Instructor Manual 2002).

However, the order in which training is undertaken is not set in stone. Why not get your OWI/AD dive buddy to speak to your Branch Diving Officer so it?s not a surprise when an odd signature appears in your Logbook. From the description you give it sounds like your Branch Diving Officer could do with the help in getting another DL in the Branch.


HTH

Edward

[Mike Halligan]

Dave,

BSAC define the requirements for a qualification, not individual DOs. It is not up to a DO to refuse to accept something that is valid just because it doesn't fit his personal views on what should be done
AFAIK, I have not suggested that any requirement is changed or that anything valid has not been accepted. I do not intend to do so. I certainly do NOT suggest there is any imposition of personal views.

If a diver has completed that required , then If a branch has any special circumstances which require specific skills beyond that defined, then the person should be awarded the qualification and these areas covered afterwards.
Self-evident to you and I

Mike

[El.Hoopo]

Terry,

Its not the DL demonstration/practice/assessment dives thatr are the issue here, to gain the DL qualification 12 dives must be completed with the candidate as the Dive Leader. If they are an experienced SD, their plan has been approved by the DO and TO then why does an instructor have to be present for this dive to count towards advancement?

Kisses, El.Hoopo

[TerryH]

Terry,

Its not the DL demonstration/practice/assessment dives thatr are the issue here, to gain the DL qualification 12 dives must be completed with the candidate as the Dive Leader. If they are an experienced SD, their plan has been approved by the DO and TO then why does an instructor have to be present for this dive to count towards advancement?

Kisses, El.Hoopo

Hi Hoop,
Have 4 spaces for Saturday by the way!!!!

I read it as not neccesarily an Instructor, but IMO must at
least be a grade with enough practical experience to make an
objective observation. Best would be an Advanced, minimum would
be experinced DL.

But if you are on a course why not just dive with the one who
has been teaching you.

Rgds
TerryH