View Full Version : Newbies and wings
Steve Walker
02-06-2003, 19:14
Recently, I was saying to another (non-instructor AFAIK) diver that I would not recommend a wing for a newbie diver, he disagreed. Personally, I still would not recommend one for a variey of reasons, but was wondering if any instructors here would, as a general rule, advocate wings from the beginning of training?
Regards
Recently, I was saying to another (non-instructor AFAIK) diver that I would not recommend a wing for a newbie diver, he disagreed. Personally, I still would not recommend one for a variey of reasons, but was wondering if any instructors here would, as a general rule, advocate wings from the beginning of training?
Regards
If the wing is properly setup and sized then I see no difference between that and jacket style BCD
One of my trainees has just qualified as SD and bought his BP/Wing after finishing Ocean Diver, he has had no problems adapting and is a total convert
Pete
Paul Oliver
02-06-2003, 20:41
Hi Steve,
I ask our new members not to go out and buy one until they have mastered buoyancey control (and i know that will open a can of worms). We provide about 20 sets of kit so new divers can train and try a few channel dives before deciding if they like both Diving in general and UK diving before spending loads of money.
Both this year and last i have had inexperienced divers get wings after training on jackets and not haveing good enough control to be safe. This has however been sorted out after a session or 2 with a wing using instructor.
Regards
Paul
Buddy Commando User
john kendall
02-06-2003, 21:18
Recently, I was saying to another (non-instructor AFAIK) diver that I would not recommend a wing for a newbie diver, he disagreed. Personally, I still would not recommend one for a variey of reasons, but was wondering if any instructors here would, as a general rule, advocate wings from the beginning of training?
I would totally advocate using a wing at any level. In fact I have taught a couple of people from Day one in Backplate/wing setups. Why you ask, well in these particular cases the trainees were quite small, and so it was much easier to fit a wing to them than the "Small" BC's the club owns. (My club owns wings as well as Jacket style BCs)
However I'd advocate all trainees mastering Bouyancy as early as possible, regardless of the BC type.
John
Steve Walker
03-06-2003, 10:10
I can see a good argument for a situation as Paul describes in his club, i.e. get experience and maybe your first qual then make an informed decision based on trying out both types, but does any branch have only wings as "club hire kit" or does anyone take absolute raw beginners out for first dives using a wing?
Just a point of curiosity really.
Regards
Steve
john kendall
03-06-2003, 11:07
I can see a good argument for a situation as Paul describes in his club, i.e. get experience and maybe your first qual then make an informed decision based on trying out both types, but does any branch have only wings as "club hire kit" or does anyone take absolute raw beginners out for first dives using a wing?
Just a point of curiosity really.
Well, Yes as I said, I have taken absolute raw beginners for first dives using a wing.
My club owns both Stab Jackets and Wings for hire/training kit.
John
Recently, I was saying to another (non-instructor AFAIK) diver that I would not recommend a wing for a newbie diver, he disagreed. Personally, I still would not recommend one for a variey of reasons
To turn the question round - what have you got against a properly setup and sized wing for a new diver?
> If the wing is properly setup and sized then I see no
> difference between that and jacket style BCD
Unfortunately, that's a big "if".
So often, in so many disciplines, beginners seem to equate "bigger" with "better". Ever seen someone struggle with a 100lb lift wing and a single 12l cylinder? It ain't pretty...
If the trainee has the nouse to listen to what they're told (about size, for example), then I can't see a problem. But how often do they listen to a bit of this, a bit of that, then try to take some sort of "middle ground" of all the advice they've been given?
Vic.
andy botten
03-06-2003, 13:30
We have a couple of Buddy travel wings in the club.
It seemed like a good idea as they were cheaper than a Commando and one size fits all.
We then issued these to total novices.
The feedback from the instructors was they are not as easy to use as a BC, particularly for AV, landing & dekitting in the pool.
Also a few students who tried both felt the BC gave them a sense of security.
My own experience in instructing is that when they are wearing a wing I am loath to get them to take it off and put it back on in the deep end. On the occasions I have tried this, the students ended up getting tied up in the harness.
That said I have just swaped to a wing for open water.
I use the BC in the pool as that is what most of my students are using.
As an aside: the new Diver Training Programme requires the teaching of ditching the weights.
Try that with a wing and a crutch strap.
> If the wing is properly setup and sized then I see no
> difference between that and jacket style BCD
Unfortunately, that's a big "if".
So often, in so many disciplines, beginners seem to equate "bigger" with "better". Ever seen someone struggle with a 100lb lift wing and a single 12l cylinder? It ain't pretty...
If the trainee has the nouse to listen to what they're told (about size, for example), then I can't see a problem. But how often do they listen to a bit of this, a bit of that, then try to take some sort of "middle ground" of all the advice they've been given?
The same could be applied to any kit, we've recently discussed it on ukrs about people taking advice out of context and going for twins with no experience. You would not say to a new diver don't buy your own tanks until you've got experience just in case they turn up with twin 15's and a couple of side slungs so why ban the use of wings until they have experience?
Are we going to ban dry suits because people go and buy second hand ones that are far to big for them (saw one person 5 foot nothing buy a dry suit off a chunk 6'2" bloke) which is probably more dangerous than an over sized wing.
You will always get people that will not listen to advice that does not mean we have to ban everything just to protect the stupid - hopefully only the merkin's do that
Pete
iainmsmith
03-06-2003, 13:45
As an aside: the new Diver Training Programme requires the
teaching of ditching the weights.
Try that with a wing and a crutch strap.
Erm...why would this be a problem?
If the weightbelt is worn over the harness, undo the belt, ditch it
If the weightbelt is worn under the harness, undo the waist strap, undo the weightbelt and ditch the belt.
Or am I missing something?
Iain
iainmsmith
03-06-2003, 13:49
does any branch have only wings as "club hire kit"
Not yet, although we're gradually moving in that direction. Unfortunately we can't afford to replace all of our BCs in one go.
Does anyone take absolute raw beginners out for first dives using a wing?
Yes. Absolutely. If they start off in a wing then they discover how much fun they are...and don't mistake that nasty enclosed feeling (pers. opinion) of a BC for a "sense of security".
Iain
> The same could be applied to any kit
Yes, absolutely.
> You will always get people that will not listen to advice
> that does not mean we have to ban everything just to protect
> the stupid - hopefully only the merkin's do that
Sadly, there have been many attempts to prevent divers using kit they're perfectly capable of using, just because someone truly stupid could get hurt if they did...
Vic.
> On the occasions I have tried this, the students ended up
> getting tied up in the harness.
What sort of harness?
There is a huge range of harness types; IMHO, many of them are far, far too complex. My harness is made to fit *me*, and doesn't need adjusting all that often.
I go for simplicity; my one-piece harness has one extra that the purists don't like (thanks to KeithL for the info on how to do it!). I don't think I could get tied up in it if I tried...
Vic.
Steve Walker
03-06-2003, 15:11
To turn the question round - what have you got against a properly setup and sized wing for a new diver?
That's pretty much the essence of my point, "properly setup and sized" which takes some extra time. If I take some raw newbie out I expect for them to be able to use one of the hire BCs (invariably a stab) without spending a lot of (extra) time faffing with it.
If I lent some newbie my own (OMS) wing (sans twinset), I would expect them to be fairly puzzled and not to have had any prior experience. As for a newbie being able to correctly thread the cam buckle ... I think you'll know what I mean, there's plenty of experienced divers who come unstuck with that one.
Perhaps I should emphasise tht I'm thinking about a Uni club type situation with a lot of bods sharing a small amount of kit and a certain amount of time pressure.
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't, just that (personally) under the circumstances I have described, I would not recommend it as the preferred option.
Regards
Steve
john kendall
03-06-2003, 15:19
:=To turn the question round - what have you got against a properly setup and sized wing for a new diver?
That's pretty much the essence of my point, "properly setup and sized" which takes some extra time. If I take some raw newbie out I expect for them to be able to use one of the hire BCs (invariably a stab) without spending a lot of (extra) time faffing with it.
If I lent some newbie my own (OMS) wing (sans twinset), I would expect them to be fairly puzzled and not to have had any prior experience. As for a newbie being able to correctly thread the cam buckle ... I think you'll know what I mean, there's plenty of experienced divers who come unstuck with that one.
I think a lot of it comes down to the intellegence of the trainee, and the quality of instruction. I'd expect someone to have issues with an ABLJ if they had never used one. They just need instruction in the differences.
Perhaps I should emphasise tht I'm thinking about a Uni club type situation with a lot of bods sharing a small amount of kit and a certain amount of time pressure.
There is a trick for this though. Have multiple backplates, and fewer Bladders. That way you can set up the BP's to suit various sized people. And since the BP/harness bit costs maybe ?50 per set you can have lots of them, compared to lots of different sized BC's
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't, just that (personally) under the circumstances I have described, I would not recommend it as the preferred option.
So would you suggest they buy a Stab jacket, and then buy a wing later, or just not buy a BC until they have their Buoyancy sorted?
John
andy botten
03-06-2003, 15:44
Erm...why would this be a problem?
Task loading for trainees not familiar with kit.
Getting them to remember to hunt for a (pair) of little clip(s).
If the weightbelt is worn over the harness, undo the belt, ditch it
Who puts their weight belt on last these days?
In your buddy brief for releasing your (non integrated) weights do you say "Undo the crutch strap first?"
With 10kg hanging on the crutch strap the releases are going to be harder to reach/release.
:=To turn the question round - what have you got against a properly setup and sized wing for a new diver?
That's pretty much the essence of my point, "properly setup and sized" which takes some extra time. If I take some raw newbie out I expect for them to be able to use one of the hire BCs (invariably a stab) without spending a lot of (extra) time faffing with it.
I still see no difference between the wing question and any other piece of kit, if you give a 5'0" young lady a XL Commando it will be a liability and will put her off for life. Similarly the 18 stone 6'6" bloke that sucks air like a hoover so needs at least a 15L will be incompatible with a XS Commando. Does this mean a Commando is a dodgy piece of kit? No it does not, it means that particular Commando is inappropriate to that particular individual.
Why do people have no problem allocating appropriate stab jackets but think it will be impossible to allocate appropriate BP/Harness? What is the problem?
If I lent some newbie my own (OMS) wing (sans twinset), I would expect them to be fairly puzzled and not to have had any prior experience. As for a newbie being able to correctly thread the cam buckle ... I think you'll know what I mean, there's plenty of experienced divers who come unstuck with that one.
If I lend a newby who has learnt in a wing my aging Commando I would expect them to be fairly puzzled and not to have had any prior experience, what's the difference?
When I get a newby I expect to teach them how to use the kit we allocate them, I thought that's what instructors do :-)
Everything is new to a newby. We have to teach them how to use a form of BCD whether that is stab jacket or wing, I don't get the difference.
Perhaps I should emphasise tht I'm thinking about a Uni club type situation with a lot of bods sharing a small amount of kit and a certain amount of time pressure.
So as John said buy a selection of BP/Harnesses at about ?50 a setup and a limited number of cells.
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't, just that (personally) under the circumstances I have described, I would not recommend it as the preferred option.
But the thing you've failed to explain is this magical difference between a wing and a stab jacket
andy botten
03-06-2003, 15:49
What sort of harness?
The one that comes with the Buddy - one size fits all.
Taking it off and putting it back on at the bottom of the pool is not easy for newbies.
For those with some diving under their belt and their own personal set up; this is not a problem.
:=What sort of harness?
The one that comes with the Buddy - one size fits all.
Sorry it does not.
XL Buddy on 5'0" individual does not fit.
XS Buddy on 6'6" individual does not fit
andy botten
03-06-2003, 17:15
:=:=What sort of harness?
:=
:=The one that comes with the Buddy - one size fits all.
Sorry it does not.
XL Buddy on 5'0" individual does not fit.
XS Buddy on 6'6" individual does not fit
I was talking of the Buddy travel-wing which in their blurb is so described.
(I am not trying to score points)
Steve Walker
03-06-2003, 17:17
There is a trick for this though. Have multiple backplates, and fewer Bladders. That way you can set up the BP's to suit various sized people. And since the BP/harness bit costs maybe ?50 per set you can have lots of them, compared to lots of different sized BC's
That sounds like a very good cost-effective idea actually.
So would you suggest they buy a Stab jacket, and then buy a wing later, or just not buy a BC until they have their Buoyancy sorted?
John
If I was to make active sugestions, and bearing in mind that the worst kind of 'vice' is 'ad-vice' ;) It would depend on the individual: for someone who seems like they're going to be a die-hard UK diver I might probably recommend a wing for private purchase once some decent experience had been gained with club hire kit (assuming ablj or stab). But I don't think it is "ideal" for a raw beginner who might not "go the distance" due to the extra faff, time constraints and the forward tipping which has to be countered - this would be the "magical difference" if such a thing existed.
I bought a cheap second hand stab which was fine for several years before moving on to wing, the stab is still useful for pool work so I don't see it as money wasted.
Interesting to see wings (and in an earlier post of mine, long primary hoses) are not considered to be tekkie-only kit, as was very much the attitude when I was a trainee.
Regards
Steve
>does anyone take absolute raw beginners out for first dives using a wing?
No and I would not want to.
You can be pretty certain that fully inflating a jacket style BCD will place the wearer upright with their head clear of the water. Hence IMVHO a jacket BCD is the best buoyancy device for training and particularly during the very early dives. A wing offers few if any advantages during training but does provide scope for distraction. Once a trainee has some confidence and the skills to appreciate the difference fine let them use a wing.
Regards
Matt
Recently, I was saying to another (non-instructor AFAIK) diver that I would not recommend a wing for a newbie diver, he disagreed. Personally, I still would not recommend one for a variey of reasons, but was wondering if any instructors here would, as a general rule, advocate wings from the beginning of training?
Regards
Personally I wouldn't deter a student from making a commitment to an item of kit if they were so intent on getting it. As for training someone using it, I think of it as an opportunity...
After all these days we have all sorts of weight systems ranging from the good old back busters to the integrated and harness systems...all have their merits...
What I have done is make it clear to students the affects of such equipment, what to watch and prepare for such as the crotch strap v's weight belt; the extra drag when fully inflated on the surface; the extra bouyancy; the absence of head up bouyancy; the dekit message to the buddy (re-emphasis on BAR)... In all cases the training should be adaptive to the student and environment.
The only time I recall that I was negative about wings is when a student bought their first set which was twin bladdered. The student was advised to familiarise themselves with one bladder control and bouyancy, ignoring the second.
I have met a lot of divers with single cylinder travel wings but none with single cylinder wings and backplate. In my mind this presents a different training opportunity since the use of twins has a dramatic influence on bouyancy and how its controlled. Using a single cylinder (whether wing or not) the student is invariably taught bouyancy on their suit. Using twin cylinders, the suit inflation is used generally for comfort and bouyancy attained via the wings (or stab). As long as the student is taught bouyancy with due care to their equipment there should not be a problem.
All said, our newbies are equipped in standard club kit comprising back braking weights and single cylinder stabs. They are given the opportunity to try out other members kit as they progress so that when it comes to splashing out they do it with some knowledge.
Regards
I was talking of the Buddy travel-wing which in their blurb is so described.
Sorry misunderstood I thought you were talking about a commando
You can be pretty certain that fully inflating a jacket style BCD will place the wearer upright with their head clear of the water.
Actually I disagree with that statement - no jacket BCD is as far as I'm aware marketed as making sure the user will be head up without outside interference - I'm will to be proved wrong. The only BCD that is guaranteed to float head up is the ABLJ.
So we're down to how they are setup being the overriding way both units will orientate the wearer - both can be setup correctly and both can be setup incorrectly.
A wing offers few if any advantages during training but does provide scope for distraction.
Again it's the magical differences appearing :-) What distractions are there on a wing that are not on a stab jacket? If I compare my wing and my stab jacket there are lots LESS distractions on the wing.
Cheers
Pete
Adrian Kelland
03-06-2003, 22:09
The only BCD that is guaranteed to float head up is the ABLJ.
IIRC the SeaKing was also a life jacket. If I have RC, then of course I am being bloody pedantic ;-)
Adrian
iainmsmith
03-06-2003, 23:13
:=Erm...why would this be a problem?
Task loading for trainees not familiar with kit.
Getting them to remember to hunt for a (pair) of little clip(s).
Ah...I apologise. I forgot that not all harnesses are designed with "drop away" crotch straps. My crotch strap, and all those in my Branch, are simply loops of webbing that slide over the waist belt. Undo the buckle and the loop slips off the waist belt.
:=If the weightbelt is worn over the harness, undo the belt, ditch it
Who puts their weight belt on last these days?
IIRC, the "weight belt on last" rule comes from the days of ABLJs...which coincidentally had backplates, harnesses and sometimes crotchstraps. The rule is not necessary when using stab jackets, but that doesn't mean that it's not something one should consider when diving a wing + harness. Having said that, I wear my belt underneath my harness because the last thing I need when I've got half an hour or more of stops to do is to have my weightbelt fall off accidentally!
In your buddy brief for releasing your (non integrated) weights do you say "Undo the crutch strap first?"
No - as above, my crotch strap doesn't need to be undone. In any case, the waist strap lies over the weightbelt and so would have to be undone first anyway.
With 10kg hanging on the crutch strap the releases are going to be harder to reach/release.
Sounds like another good argument for not having clips in the crotch strap!
Iain
iainmsmith
03-06-2003, 23:17
I have met a lot of divers with single cylinder travel wings but none with single cylinder wings and backplate.
Darin,
If you're ever in the Cambridge area, get in touch - in CUUEG, have more single cylinder wings + backplates than we have twinset rigs. I'm sure you'd be welcome to borrow one.
Iain
:=The only BCD that is guaranteed to float head up is the ABLJ.
IIRC the SeaKing was also a life jacket. If I have RC, then of course I am being bloody pedantic ;-)
Adrian
Your right
<a href="http://www.apvalves.com/SeaKing.html" >http://www.apvalves.com/SeaKing.html</a>
But who uses ABLJ's or Sea Kings?
:=You can be pretty certain that fully inflating a jacket style BCD will place the wearer upright with their head clear of the water.
Actually I disagree with that statement - no jacket BCD is as far as I'm aware marketed as making sure the user will be head up without outside interference - I'm will to be proved wrong. The only BCD that is guaranteed to float head up is the ABLJ.
An ABLJ places the wearer on their back, desirable for rescue perhaps but not particularly for teaching purposes. Idealy I want the trainee to feel secure and able to maintain eye contact.
So we're down to how they are setup being the overriding way both units will orientate the wearer - both can be setup correctly and both can be setup incorrectly.
Not unless you are being pedantic! When fully inflated a jacket BCD is wider at the base than the top, hence it tends to float vertically when fitted to a diver. A wing is pretty much straight and narrow hence tends to tip over when placed vertically in the water.
:= A wing offers few if any advantages during training but does provide scope for distraction.
Again it's the magical differences appearing :-)
Nope it is a physical difference which is a result of the design.
What distractions are there on a wing that are not on a stab jacket? If I compare my wing and my stab jacket there are lots LESS distractions on the wing.
If you fully inflate a jacket BCD and do nothing else it is quite difficult to do anything other than have your head out and parallel to the water. The same positioning can be achieved with a wing but trim is critical and some fin movement may be required to initially orient.
AFAIC having your trainee fall face down or onto their back is distracting, as is any loss of confidence it might cause.
Regards
Matt
john kendall
04-06-2003, 10:54
:=So we're down to how they are setup being the overriding way both units will orientate the wearer - both can be setup correctly and both can be setup incorrectly.
Not unless you are being pedantic! When fully inflated a jacket BCD is wider at the base than the top, hence it tends to float vertically when fitted to a diver. A wing is pretty much straight and narrow hence tends to tip over when placed vertically in the water.
:=:= A wing offers few if any advantages during training but does provide scope for distraction.
:=
:=Again it's the magical differences appearing :-)
Nope it is a physical difference which is a result of the design.
:= What distractions are there on a wing that are not on a stab jacket? If I compare my wing and my stab jacket there are lots LESS distractions on the wing.
If you fully inflate a jacket BCD and do nothing else it is quite difficult to do anything other than have your head out and parallel to the water. The same positioning can be achieved with a wing but trim is critical and some fin movement may be required to initially orient.
AFAIC having your trainee fall face down or onto their back is distracting, as is any loss of confidence it might cause.
My First Jacket BC, when fully inflated with a 12L cylinder would float me face down, slightly sideways.
My Single tank wing setup, will float me however I want when fully inflated. If I want to be on my Back, I fin a little, and then am on my back, I can stop finning, and still be on my back. Simarly, If I want to stay upright, it keeps me upright.
I don't see your point.
BTW what Single tank wing do you use?
John
:=:=So we're down to how they are setup being the overriding way both units will orientate the wearer - both can be setup correctly and both can be setup incorrectly.
:=
:=Not unless you are being pedantic! When fully inflated a jacket BCD is wider at the base than the top, hence it tends to float vertically when fitted to a diver. A wing is pretty much straight and narrow hence tends to tip over when placed vertically in the water.
:=
:=:=:= A wing offers few if any advantages during training but does provide scope for distraction.
:=:=
:=:=Again it's the magical differences appearing :-)
:=
:=Nope it is a physical difference which is a result of the design.
:=
:=:= What distractions are there on a wing that are not on a stab jacket? If I compare my wing and my stab jacket there are lots LESS distractions on the wing.
:=
:=If you fully inflate a jacket BCD and do nothing else it is quite difficult to do anything other than have your head out and parallel to the water. The same positioning can be achieved with a wing but trim is critical and some fin movement may be required to initially orient.
:=
:=AFAIC having your trainee fall face down or onto their back is distracting, as is any loss of confidence it might cause.
My First Jacket BC, when fully inflated with a 12L cylinder would float me face down, slightly sideways.
My Single tank wing setup, will float me however I want when fully inflated. If I want to be on my Back, I fin a little, and then am on my back, I can stop finning, and still be on my back. Simarly, If I want to stay upright, it keeps me upright.
I don't see your point.
BTW what Single tank wing do you use?
Yes please tell - I would love to know the make and model of these wings that pitch people on their faces because every wing I've used or seen being used puts people at least as upright as my Buddy Commando
Pete
Adrian Kelland
04-06-2003, 14:11
But who uses ABLJ's or Sea Kings?
One of our members still uses a SeaKing. Why not? As AP still make them, I will assume they still sell.
Sometimes I think that it can be more convenient to be able to wear a lifejacket without a cylinder on rough trips. While it is correct that wet/dry suits have enough bouyancy, you have to be conscious to keep face up. I'll go get my DoubleGold...;-)
Adrian
:=My First Jacket BC, when fully inflated with a 12L cylinder would float me face down, slightly sideways.
:=
:=My Single tank wing setup, will float me however I want when fully inflated. If I want to be on my Back, I fin a little, and then am on my back, I can stop finning, and still be on my back. Simarly, If I want to stay upright, it keeps me upright.
Yes please tell - I would love to know the make and model of these wings that pitch people on their faces because every wing I've used or seen being used puts people at least as upright as my Buddy Commando
Now we are truelly into the realms of magic :-) Please tell which branch of physics results in your buoyancy device exhibiting psychic behaviour!!!
Jacket style BCDs are designed to provide stability while the diver is vertical. A wing is designed to be stable when the diver is horizontal. Both follow the general laws of centre of mass, centre of gravity and stability which you can read about here;
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2003/ffe4_2.htm" >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2003/ffe4_2.htm</a>
FYI: I have used a variety of wings and jackets with both single and twins. AFAIC a wing that is stable when vertical is as wrong as a jacket that is stable when horizontal.
Regards
Matt
:=But who uses ABLJ's or Sea Kings?
One of our members still uses a SeaKing. Why not? As AP still make them, I will assume they still sell.
I don't actually have a problem with Sea Kings - not too sure about ABLJ's mind. All I was asking was who uses them as they are the only ones that can have a legitimate complaint out the orientation of other forms of BCD
Related link: A brief lessono on stability
Personally I'm not cone shaped :-)
:=Related link: A brief lessono on stability
Personally I'm not cone shaped :-)
I am very glad to hear it!
But then again very few people are of uniform density either. Particularly after adding some diving gear and partially submerging in water :-)
From your link;
"As a final point: The chances of you getting it bang on perfect your first try are still fairly low. You will need to play around with your wing to get it set up perfectly."
There is also the point that the author makes that in order to stay upright the wing may only need to be inflated partially. The surfacing drill during training is very simple, inflate the stab fully.
At the very least attempting to set up the wing or explain the difference in its use is 'distracting' at the worse you potentially have a trainee face down or face up in the water when you want them looking at you.
Regards
Matt
We will have to agree to disagree on how effective a wing is at keep you upright - mine does it perfectly; your experience is obviously different
explain the difference in its use is 'distracting'
This is the thing I really don't get - the difference bit that has come up in a lot of posts, hence my comments about the "magical difference"
Johnny Newby joins the club he has no scuba experience. So you give him a BCD of type X along with the rest of his kit. He's new so he has never seen any of it and would not know an X if it fell on him. So you teach him to use it in the pool, Later you take him in to open water and he continues to use the X.
At what point do we get distracted by the difference?
If X = BCD then where does the difference come in?
If X = wing then where does the difference come in?
You teach someone in a certain type of kit, you take them to open water in that kit - you have to add exposure protection but the kit they are learning in that continues along with them is a contstant so where does this *difference* come from? Apart from the position thing this seems to be the only argument.
Regards and perplexed
Pete
iainmsmith
04-06-2003, 21:05
There is also the point that the author makes that in order to stay upright the wing may only need to be inflated partially. The surfacing drill during training is very simple, inflate the stab fully.
Is it? Surely it's "Inflate the BC (of whatever type) so that you float comfortably at the surface." Inflating it fully will, in the case of many BCs, be particularly uncomfortable as they can squeeze somewhat.
Iain
john kendall
04-06-2003, 21:20
At the very least attempting to set up the wing or explain the difference in its use is 'distracting' at the worse you potentially have a trainee face down or face up in the water when you want them looking at you.
Ok Matt,
I did my novice course using an ABLJ, I then bought a Stab Jacket, which I used to dive, and then to do my Sports Diver course. Do you think I found the difference distracting?
No, I didn't, In fact I found it much nicer than the ABLJ, and so was able to concentrate on the important things. I then discovered Wings, I tried one on a dive, and have not worn a Stab Jacket since, that was about 3 or 4 years ago now, I have never had an issue with a wing, I have taught people to dive in wings, I have even shown people who learnt to dive in a Stab Jacket how to use a wing. Those that tried the wing all liked the fact that it was so much simpler than a Stab Jacket, and had less things that got in the way. So Less distractions.
If you can't teach someone how to dive a wing, then that is your problem, not that of the kit.
John
:=At the very least attempting to set up the wing or explain the difference in its use is 'distracting' at the worse you potentially have a trainee face down or face up in the water when you want them looking at you.
Ok Matt,
I did my novice course using an ABLJ, I then bought a Stab Jacket, which I used to dive, and then to do my Sports Diver course. Do you think I found the difference distracting?
No, I didn't, In fact I found it much nicer than the ABLJ, and so was able to concentrate on the important things.
Yes exactly why I feel a BCD is preferable to an ABLJ and wing for teaching.
I then discovered Wings, I tried one on a dive, and have not worn a Stab Jacket since, that was about 3 or 4 years ago now,
And this appears to be the difference between us. I have a stab jacket, a two wings and use an ABLJ from time to time. AFAIC they are all just tools with their own particular set of compromises which make them optimal for differing purposes. The vast majority of my diving is in a wing and has been since 97. What amazes me is the evangelism that some divers attach to various bits of kit.
If you can't teach someone how to dive a wing, then that is your problem, not that of the kit.
And that is just downright insulting. Why oh why do so many of these evangelists have to resort to insulting those that
disagree. If you have a valid point it will stand on it's own merits without the need for petty and innaccurate insults.
FYI I have spent a great deal of time teaching divers how to use a wing, how to trim it and how to avoid being on your back or on your front while surfaced. I personally feel that the potential for this with a diver that is new to open water is unacceptable, possibly less than safe.
If you have a different view then by all means you are entitled to it. But if you need to ram that view down someones throat please knock on another door.
Regards
Matt
John
We will have to agree to disagree on how effective a wing is at keep you upright - mine does it perfectly; your experience is obviously different
Like I said, the reason I use a wing is because it does not keep me upright. The underwater position is more effective both for buoyancy and swimming, but I would say you need to be able to control your buoyancy and fin before you really notice. On the surface some input is needed to keep it upright. Anyone that has completed CD will probably make these inputs intuitively. If your new to floating around in the water then nothing is particularly intuitive.
Apart from the position thing this seems to be the only argument.
That is a good enough reason for me not to go any further.
The stab is inherently stable when the diver is vertical (a cone), a wing is inherently unstable when vertical(a plank). There is an increased potential for a trainee to end up flat in the water using a wing, which could be dangerous or damage confidence, neither of these is acceptable to me. If pool training has instilled that pressing the inflate until you hear the dump = upright and head dry then the trainee has a very good chance of helping themselves should they be unfortunate enough to get into difficulty.
Regards
Matt
:=There is also the point that the author makes that in order to stay upright the wing may only need to be inflated partially. The surfacing drill during training is very simple, inflate the stab fully.
Is it? Surely it's "Inflate the BC (of whatever type) so that you float comfortably at the surface." Inflating it fully will, in the case of many BCs, be particularly uncomfortable as they can squeeze somewhat.
Personally I think Safe comes before Comfortable. The problem is that if you teach Comfortable in the pool it may not be adequate to raise the head clear of the water when wearing OW kit, particularly if there is any sort of swell. So AFAIC the surfacing drill is fully inflate the BCD. Once that is instilled and the trainee knows the BCD will inflate past Comfortable they can then learn to back it off.
Regards
Matt
john kendall
04-06-2003, 23:53
And that is just downright insulting.
Ok, I apologise for that.
Why oh why do so many of these evangelists have to resort to insulting those that
disagree. If you have a valid point it will stand on it's own merits without the need for petty and innaccurate insults.
This is a good question, it appears to me that you don't have a valid point, and it is not standing on it's own merits.
FYI I have spent a great deal of time teaching divers how to use a wing, how to trim it and how to avoid being on your back or on your front while surfaced. I personally feel that the potential for this with a diver that is new to open water is unacceptable, possibly less than safe.
But you cannot assume that any Stab jacket will always place you vertical on the surface. My first Stab jacket certainly didn't, it's most natural position was leaning forwards on the side, with my nose in the water. It was also very uncomfortable when fully inflated as it pressed on my stomach and the sides of my chest.
If you have a different view then by all means you are entitled to it. But if you need to ram that view down someones throat please knock on another door.
It is not me trying to ram it down your throat, what works for you works for you, fine. However you are trying to tell everyone that a wing is not suitable for a novice diver. I have experience that differs from that view. I am not saying that a wing is ideal for all trainees, I haven't yet found one that can't use a wing, but I do not claim that everyone can. I am however saying that a wing is not the dangerous bit of kit that you are making it out to be for a new diver.
John
This is a good question, it appears to me that you don't have a valid point, and it is not standing on it's own merits.
My point is that a jacket style stab is inherently stable in the vertical when fully inflated and a wing inherently stable in the horizontal and that this is a consideration for the most inexperienced. For the vast majority of trained divers the skill required to keep a wing vertical is intuitive but for the completely inexperienced it may not be. Hence a jacket style is a better choice for training. I have provided a link to the physics concerned. What is invalid about it or what do you not understand?
But you cannot assume that any Stab jacket will always place you vertical on the surface.
My words were 'pretty certain'. In fact I have never had to tell someone how to orient a Jacket style stab vertical. I guess that one day I may have to.
When I have helped people with wings there is almost always something to adjust or a technique to try. When I set up my own wing the getting vertical bit was simple, but underwater trim took a dive to sort. Others I have had to teach how to orient the wing using straight leg fin kicks, or to only partially inflate, where to put weights and cylinder positioning can also cause a bit of discussion. Don't take my word for it, read the link PeteM provided where the author who is advocateing wings also concedes that they can take longer to set up.
My first Stab jacket certainly didn't, it's most natural position was leaning forwards on the side, with my nose in the water. It was also very uncomfortable when fully inflated as it pressed on my stomach and the sides of my chest.
It sounds like it was too small for you. A stab that fits should not come around the stomach. The buoyancy cell should slide along the waistband as it inflates, keeping buoyancy to the sides and maintaining the widest base (stable). I often see the chest retainers on jacket BCDs done up tight when the jacket is deflated, they should be taught (not tight) when the jacket is fully inflated so that the buoyancy cell can slide on the waistband to resist sideways tilting. If the weight of the diver above the jackets centre of rotation is enough to topple the jacket then the jackets lift is inadequate or badly positioned. This is all simple leverage and torque, which has proved to be a valid and valuable point for many a schoolboy physicist over the years.
It is not me trying to ram it down your throat, what works for you works for you, fine. However you are trying to tell everyone that a wing is not suitable for a novice diver.
Nope. I said;
"IMVHO a jacket BCD is the best buoyancy device for training and particularly during the very early dives. A wing offers few if any advantages during training but does provide scope for distraction."
I have never said you cannot teach divers in wings, or that a novice can not use a wing. However I don't think anyone should ignore that a trainee in a wing may require teaching above and beyond what is usual for a trainee using a correctly fitting jacket style BCD. Until you are certain that the trainee can maintain a vertical attitude on the surface and a reasonably horizontal attitude underwater, you have a potentially dangerous situation. Attaining such certainty can take significantly longer for the trainee in the wing hence is a distraction.
I have experience that differs from that view. I am not saying that a wing is ideal for all trainees, I haven't yet found one that can't use a wing, but I do not claim that everyone can. I am however saying that a wing is not the dangerous bit of kit that you are making it out to be for a new diver.
What I actually said was
" I personally feel that the potential for this [toppling] with a diver that is new to open water is unacceptable, possibly less than safe."
I have had a couple trainees who became very anxious the moment they got out of their depth in open water. Being able to float them around while maintaining touch and eye contact for a few minutes is all I needed to do in order for them to realise they were secure. Similarly I have had a couple trainees who forgot to inflate their stabs after surfacing, this can be a pretty stressful experience for them, for me it has been a simple matter of hitting their inflate until the dump goes placing them vertical with their head well clear of the water. In these cases the frantic finning that is going on underwater is exactly the sort of thing that will topple a wing one way or the other. If you have hold of them in a jacket the finning just moves you around the water which is pretty non-threatening. Personally I regard any delay in easing an anxious divers stress as less than safe.
After years of wing use and assisting people using wings I would be the first to advocate them to any diver with the buoyancy skills to benefit from one. However it as close to a fact as you can get that wings are inherently unstable in the vertical when inflated and IMVHO that makes them less than the best choice for initial training.
You might want to consider the analogy of a pilot training in a stable aeoroplane before progressing to an unstable aircraft for aerobatics. Neither is a wrong aircraft, you could learn tp fly in either types but the trainer is not so good at aerobatics and learning to fly in an unstable aircraft is not easy for the pilot or instructor.
By all means provide some advantages which might sway (pun) mine or other readers view. Or try to proove that the laws of Statics do not apply to wings or stabs (unlikely). But please do not read into my posts anything that I have not written.
Regards
Matt
After years of wing use and assisting people using wings I would be the first to advocate them to any diver with the buoyancy skills to benefit from one. However it as close to a fact as you can get that wings are inherently unstable in the vertical when inflated and IMVHO that makes them less than the best choice for initial training.
Been following this debate and biting my tongue, but have to
say that the above sums up the position of myself and two other
NQI's in my club.
All three of us dive on wings, but would always promote the
conventional BC for newbies. Perhaps it might be a good idea
for some of us to remember back to when we were first
learning. A wing IS inherently unstable on the surface unless
it is adjusted right and you know how to use it. Two skills
not normally associated with newbies.
Besides for all those that say the wing is fine on the surface,
how about looking at the manufacturers warning lable stiched on
the inside. You know, the one that says it has a tendancy to tip
you forward.
Not so much anecdotal evidence, but cast-iron proof!
TerryH
Steve Walker
05-06-2003, 12:10
:=
:=After years of wing use and assisting people using wings I would be the first to advocate them to any diver with the buoyancy skills to benefit from one. However it as close to a fact as you can get that wings are inherently unstable in the vertical when inflated and IMVHO that makes them less than the best choice for initial training.
:=
Been following this debate and biting my tongue, but have to
say that the above sums up the position of myself and two other
NQI's in my club.
Me too.
All three of us dive on wings, but would always promote the
conventional BC for newbies. Perhaps it might be a good idea
for some of us to remember back to when we were first
learning. A wing IS inherently unstable on the surface unless
it is adjusted right and you know how to use it. Two skills
not normally associated with newbies.
Besides for all those that say the wing is fine on the surface,
how about looking at the manufacturers warning lable stiched on
the inside. You now the one that says it has a tendancy to tip
you forward.
Not so much anecdotal evidence, but cast-iron proof!
TerryH
Well said
iainmsmith
06-06-2003, 19:47
Besides for all those that say the wing is fine on the
surface, how about looking at the manufacturers warning
lable stiched on the inside. You know, the one that says it
has a tendancy to tip you forward.
Do tell...where would I find such a label? Neither of my wings would appear to have such a statement.
Not so much anecdotal evidence, but cast-iron proof!
And if you believe that, you'll believe that all trimix divers are automatically less safe divers than all single-tank air divers. It's called CYA, not "proof".
Iain
Besides for all those that say the wing is fine on the surface,
how about looking at the manufacturers warning lable stiched on
the inside. You know, the one that says it has a tendancy to tip
you forward.
Not so much anecdotal evidence, but cast-iron proof!
Umm, that isn't proof. I haven't seen such a warning on mine
Just because there exists 1 case of a wing having a tendency to lean forward does not imply that all wings have a tendency to lean forward. That is on par with the logic "my dog is a spaniel, therefore all dogs are spaniels"
Personally I would ensure that any trainee is familiar with use of a stab jacket since that is pretty much the standard buoyancy control device in use. If they were to go off on holiday et al and hire kit then , in all probability, they would be given stabilising jackets; it is unlikely that they would be given wings. I would want to ensure that they are comfortable with the most common device that they are likely to hire.
I also think that Stabilising jackets are quicker and easier to adjust to fit to a person compared (at least to my ones) adjusting wing strap to fit
Dave
Umm, that isn't proof. I haven't seen such a warning on mine
Just because there exists 1 case of a wing having a tendency to lean forward does not imply that all wings have a tendency to lean forward. That is on par with the logic "my dog is a spaniel, therefore all dogs are spaniels"
Personally I would ensure that any trainee is familiar with use of a stab jacket since that is pretty much the standard buoyancy control device in use. If they were to go off on holiday et al and hire kit then , in all probability, they would be given stabilising jackets; it is unlikely that they would be given wings. I would want to ensure that they are comfortable with the most common device that they are likely to hire.
I also think that Stabilising jackets are quicker and easier to adjust to fit to a person compared (at least to my ones) adjusting wing strap to fit
Ok try this. Look at the stiched on label of your wing.
Does it say anything about tipping forward? Yes/No?
Not actually got a stiched on label?
Ok how about looking at the booklet that came with it?
Didnt bother to read it?
Well if you had you might see a couple of sentences that said
something like.....
a) You must be trained to use this equipment.
and
b) This unit may put the user in a face down position etc.
Let me see. Straw poll with the clubs current wing owners. Including - Dive Rite, Zeagle, OMS, Halycon, Beauchat, Oceanic,
Scubapro & CD.
Asked, does your wing tip you forward?
General awnser "It use to".
Obvious conclusion. Manufacturers do add warning notices to
wings. Because there is a tendency to tip forward and they want
to cover there butts, however a bit of practice will overcome
this issue.
The original question was (and still is) "would this be a good
idea for newbies?"
The awnser IMO has not changed. Wings are great once you have
mastered the basics. Until then its KISS all the way and as bog
standard kit as you can make it. Which means conventional BC.
TerryH
Aqualung BCD Instructions....
This jacket does not gurantee(sic) to support an unconcious person with their face out of the water at the surface.
Buddy Commando Instructions....
The position of the jacket on the cylinder is extremely important for achieving correct surface support/balance, particularly for the Commando, Slimline and Profile styles. The alteration of this can result in the jacket going from one extreme of holding the diver on his back to the other extreme of holding the diver face down.
Aqualung BCD Instructions....
This jacket does not gurantee(sic) to support an unconcious person with their face out of the water at the surface.
Buddy Commando Instructions....
The position of the jacket on the cylinder is extremely important for achieving correct surface support/balance, particularly for the Commando, Slimline and Profile styles. The alteration of this can result in the jacket going from one extreme of holding the diver on his back to the other extreme of holding the diver face down.
Dont tell me you've found some of these alusive instuctions
Pete. You know, the ones that supposedly dont exist!
All we need now is the Aqualung/Buddy wing Instructions as
a comparison.
TerryH
Obvious conclusion. Manufacturers do add warning notices to
wings. Because there is a tendency to tip forward and they want
to cover there butts, however a bit of practice will overcome
this issue.
This is no different to warnings printed for Stabilising Jackets however ( e.g. compare Halcyon wings with Aqualung Stabilising Jacket ). The assertion that wings are worse due to their tendency to tip forward is flawed since neither device claims to act as a lifejacket
The original question was (and still is) "would this be a good idea for newbies?"
To which I agree that they are not, but just not for the same reasons.
When training, a Stabilising Jacket is, imo, much easier to adjust to fit compared to adjusting a wing.
Once trained, should the diver pop off and hire some gear and go for a dive, they are most likely to get given a Stabilising Jacket; the odds on being given wings are pretty low imo. I would want them trained to use the most standard equipment and then let them progress, if they so desire, to other equipment as they gain experience.
Dave
:=Aqualung BCD Instructions....
:=This jacket does not gurantee(sic) to support an unconcious person with their face out of the water at the surface.
:=
:=Buddy Commando Instructions....
:=The position of the jacket on the cylinder is extremely important for achieving correct surface support/balance, particularly for the Commando, Slimline and Profile styles. The alteration of this can result in the jacket going from one extreme of holding the diver on his back to the other extreme of holding the diver face down.
Dont tell me you've found some of these alusive instuctions
Pete. You know, the ones that supposedly dont exist!
I never said they don't exists, they probably do on wings as well but I could not find mine.
All we need now is the Aqualung/Buddy wing Instructions as
a comparison.
Does it matter? Lets just admit that they both give the warning and that both will cause problems if not setup correctly
The difference is that I have setup loads of BCD's for trainees over the years and can setup up pretty much spot on first time, every time. This is called experience which you, I and most of the other insructors round here have lots of.
Pete
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