View Full Version : Teaching AAS with an AIR2
The air2 and similar devices were frequently bought as an AAS. Less so now I think as people have become more used to the idea of carrying an AAS.
Teaching the use of AAS with an air2 was never ideal. However the new training scheme seems to make it almost impossible. To use the air2 the donor takes the air2 and donates their standard DV. This means that under the new scheme the recipient takes the DV from the donors mouth leaving the donor to find their air2.
As a number of people in our branch are still using air2s and similar I wondered if there was a standard procedure for teaching this. Or any tips other than buy an octopus.
As a number of people in our branch are still using air2s and similar I wondered if there was a standard procedure for teaching this. Or any tips other than buy an octopus.
Dont know of any standard procedure, but thinking logicly
it might be best to teach any reg out = grab air2.
(Notice I said might, in case anybody wants to jump down my
throat)
So even if your main comes out you get the air 2 first then
replace it with your main, once its recovered.
In this way taking the primary in a rescue will have the same
response as simply taking the reg out.
Reg out for any reason = get air 2.
Of course you could argue that this make them air 2 dependent
and they might go for it even when they have an octo, but as
you havnt got octos your are changing the skill anyway.
So IMO this is probably the best way.
I'm sure somebody will be along in a minute to say otherwise.
HTH
TerryH :-)
edward haynes
22-05-2003, 22:52
When the idea of having an AAS started my 1st stage only had 3 LP ports so I went for the Air 2 option. However, following an incident where my contents gauge came off and my buddy also had an Air 2. I quickly realised I had his buoyancy controls as he didn't offer to share his DV.
Before my next dive I had bought a new 1st stage and fitted an octopus, as there was no way I was going to be in the position of my buddy, who would be stressed, taking my buoyancy controls.
The cost of the new kit was immaterial compared to my life.
Just my experience.
Edward
john kendall
22-05-2003, 23:47
The air2 and similar devices were frequently bought as an AAS. Less so now I think as people have become more used to the idea of carrying an AAS.
Teaching the use of AAS with an air2 was never ideal. However the new training scheme seems to make it almost impossible. To use the air2 the donor takes the air2 and donates their standard DV. This means that under the new scheme the recipient takes the DV from the donors mouth leaving the donor to find their air2.
Uh Oh, Someone will be along shortly to tell you that someone will die if you plan to donate the primary reg.
I personally don't like Air2/Auto Air as I don't like trying to control my Bouyancy with the controls in my mouth. However I do dive rigged to donate my primary. (My backup is in a necklace around my neck)
As a number of people in our branch are still using air2s and similar I wondered if there was a standard procedure for teaching this. Or any tips other than buy an octopus.
To be honest there is no good reason these days not to have 2 decent 2nd stages attached to your Rig.
John
Richie771
23-05-2003, 09:29
I'm sure ive seen it somewhere in the DTP that the BSAC does not condider the Air 2 / Auto Air to be a sufficient AAS - Due to hose thength's Etc...
Never got on with mine anyway - Auto Air always seemed to leak after a service!
Safe Diving.
Dont know of any standard procedure, but thinking logicly
it might be best to teach any reg out = grab air2.
Sounds like a perfect description of long hose use, which after all is just a variation of the air2 technique. But we must not talk about the that......
I'm sure somebody will be along in a minute to say otherwise.
No we don't _always_ disagree with
Sounds like a perfect description of long hose use, which after all is just a variation of the air2 technique. But we must not talk about the that......
Quite honestly the best place for the Air2 is in that box out
in the garage. You know the one with the ABLJ in it :-)
TerryH
Thanks for the comments. I agree the air2 is probably the worst of both worlds. It isn't a decent reg or a brilliant inflator.
I'll have to check the DTP to see if there is guidance on use. However in the real world there are still a few people were and air2 or autoair is their only AAS.
Thanks for the comments. I agree the air2 is probably the worst of both worlds. It isn't a decent reg or a brilliant inflator.
I'll have to check the DTP to see if there is guidance on use. However in the real world there are still a few people were and air2 or autoair is their only AAS.
So how about pursuading them to add an octo?
After all a second hand serviced octo is better than just an
Air2 and you can pick them up for next to nothing.
It is just the 2nd stage anyway, even new you can get one for
?50.
TerryH
Gordon Archer
23-05-2003, 15:05
:=Thanks for the comments. I agree the air2 is probably the worst of both worlds. It isn't a decent reg or a brilliant inflator.
:=
:=I'll have to check the DTP to see if there is guidance on use. However in the real world there are still a few people were and air2 or autoair is their only AAS.
So how about pursuading them to add an octo?
After all a second hand serviced octo is better than just an
Air2 and you can pick them up for next to nothing.
It is just the 2nd stage anyway, even new you can get one for
?50.
TerryH
Having an Air2/AutoAir device and have been teaching AAS using this for some 10+ plus years I am puzzled by some of the posts here.
The Air2/Autoair device is a pefectly good second device is rated to 50 meteres and if you contact the manufacturers, will find extended hoses are available.(I have one fitted)
To those of you worried about the buddy having control of your bouyancy, if you are diving a dry suit, the dry suit should be controlling your bouyancy not the BCD fitted with the Air2/autoair.
I have recently been involved in a CBL from 20m and placed the casualty onto the Air2/Auto Air with no problems whatever, Years or practice and training kicked in; which would have to be the same whatever system was used. There is substitute for this.
iainmsmith
23-05-2003, 17:39
To those of you worried about the buddy having control of your bouyancy, if you are diving a dry suit, the dry suit should be controlling your bouyancy not the BCD fitted with the Air2/autoair.
Have you tried diving a twinset + stages on a drysuit?
And if one doesn't do it routinely for that, why would one want to do it at any other time?
"Buoyancy must always be done on the drysuit" is high on my list of all time stupidest things to appear in a BSAC publication.
Iain
Andy Nye
23-05-2003, 18:19
Quite honestly the best place for the Air2 is in that box out
in the garage. You know the one with the ABLJ in it :-)
Thats a STUPID statement to put Terry,,,,as it's there anyway to inflate a jacket, plus gives extra piece of mind that you can breathe via the jacket if need be..... or will the emergency cylinder be in the garage as well,,,,,
Andy
TerryH
Trevor M
23-05-2003, 18:44
"Buoyancy must always be done on the drysuit" is high on my list of all time stupidest things to appear in a BSAC publication.
Absolutely - I laughed recently overseeing a student trying to do a DL CBL using the 'casualty's' drysuit and watched the air burble out the neck seal as fast as it was put in. It's easy to translate a 'puzzled' look even with a mask on :-) The student realised what was happening, changed to the jacket and performed a near-perfect CBL.
T
Thats a STUPID statement to put Terry,,,,as it's there anyway to inflate a jacket, plus gives extra piece of mind that you can breathe via the jacket if need be..... or will the emergency cylinder be in the garage as well,,,,,
Err yes it is. I have about 6 suicide bottles which are tucked
up comfy, in a box alongside the other stuff.
Before slagging me off, you might want to actually think about
the Air2's advantages/disadvantages. You can do the same for
the suicide bottle.
There may be a place for all this stuff on the historical
societies stand, but with todays modern kit they are obselete.
TerryH
> Have you tried diving a twinset + stages on a drysuit?
Yep. It was a very small twinset, though ;-)
Vic.
[who has used an AutoAir deeper than 50m in a real emergency, and it functioned *perfectly*]
Andy Nye
24-05-2003, 11:12
:
So how about pursuading them to add an octo?
After all a second hand serviced octo is better than just an
Air2 and you can pick them up for next to nothing.
It is just the 2nd stage anyway, even new you can get one for
?50.
TerryH
***** Quote *****
It is just the 2nd stage anyway, even new you can get one for
?50.
Isn't the OCTO,meant to be the same standard as your main DV,( thats what i was always lead to believe from ALL instructors ).
Who [..removed..] would dive using a main DV for a price of ? 50 even if second hand ???????? [...removed...]
Andy
1st DV ? 300 New
2nd DV ? 300 New
Both 7 years old and serviced by myself and used often
[Enough of that Andy, you can make your point without degradings the forums : Keith L]
Andy Nye
24-05-2003, 11:14
Right ,
You do it your way ,,
and
I'll do it my way
:
:=So how about pursuading them to add an octo?
:=After all a second hand serviced octo is better than just an
:=Air2 and you can pick them up for next to nothing.
:=It is just the 2nd stage anyway, even new you can get one for
:=?50.
:=
:=TerryH
:=
***** Quote *****
It is just the 2nd stage anyway, even new you can get one for
?50.
Isn't the OCTO,meant to be the same standard as your main DV,( thats what i was always lead to believe from ALL instructors ).
Who [..removed..] would dive using a main DV for a price of ? 50 even if second hand ????????[..removed..]
Andy
1st DV ? 300 New
2nd DV ? 300 New
1st DV requires a first stage, 2nd DV does not so even for identical quality will be cheaper
Example from Kent Diving ATX40 primary ?196, ATX40 Octopus ?95
Right ,
You do it your way ,,
and
I'll do it my way
And the majority will do it Terry's way
Andy Nye
25-05-2003, 14:29
And the majority will do it Terry's way
Wot in the sea 340 days of the year,,,, or counting tiles ,
Andy Nye
25-05-2003, 16:43
[Enough of that Andy, you can make your point without degradings the forums : Keith L]
Where am i degrading forums ?
Wasn't you / or ever taught that your secondary air source should be of the same quaility as your main ?
I was and stuck by it ,
ANdy
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
25-05-2003, 17:07
:=[Enough of that Andy, you can make your point without degradings the forums : Keith L]
Where am i degrading forums ?
Wasn't you / or ever taught that your secondary air source should be of the same quaility as your main ?
I was and stuck by it ,
I was taught to make a point in a polite and civil manner. The only thing I removed from your post was the unnecessary profanity deliberately constructed to bypass our language checker. I will do so again without hesitation. If you want to make your point by swearing at people then you are =NOT= going to do it on the BSAC forums. Those are the rules, if you object to them then I suggest that you post elsewhere.
Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member
BSAC IT Team Leader
Forum Moderator
Isn't the OCTO,meant to be the same standard as your main DV,( thats what i was always lead to believe from ALL instructors ).
Who [..removed..] would dive using a main DV for a price of ? 50 even if second hand ???????? [...removed...]
On any same brand rig the Octo is the same price as the 2nd
stage. You seem to have had a lapse of memory and forgotten
that the 1st stage actually costs something.
Based on reasonable s/h values, it is entirely accurate to say
that you can get a decent s/h octo for ?50.
Obviously us mere mortals who buy your average UK regs are not
in the same league as yourself and cant afford to spend ?600 on
regs (no 1st stage in there Andy?).
Not really surprising that you wouldnt use a ?50 s/h Octo is it?
Still I suppose about 95% of us UK divers will just have to
battle on with the obviously inadequate rigs we use now.
TerryH
Wot in the sea 340 days of the year,,,, or counting tiles.
How did you know I worked for Tiles-R-Us!!!!!!!
340 days Ehh! I suppose using all that antiquated equipment,
it takes that long to get through your dives :-)
TerryH
iainmsmith
26-05-2003, 02:53
:=
:=Thats a STUPID statement to put Terry,,,,as it's there anyway to inflate a jacket, plus gives extra piece of mind that you can breathe via the jacket if need be..... or will the emergency cylinder be in the garage as well,,,,,
Err yes it is. I have about 6 suicide bottles which are tucked
up comfy, in a box alongside the other stuff.
Before slagging me off, you might want to actually think about
the Air2's advantages/disadvantages. You can do the same for
the suicide bottle.
There may be a place for all this stuff on the historical
societies stand, but with todays modern kit they are obselete.
Oh my goodness...I find myself completely in agreement with Terry with regard to both issues.
That probably ought to say something...other than that I have just scared myself with the above observation!
Iain
Andy Nye
26-05-2003, 16:25
S'pose being a commie may have something to do with it ,,,,,
Oh my goodness...I find myself completely in agreement with Terry with regard to both issues.
That probably ought to say something...other than that I have just scared myself with the above observation!
Careful Iain, it's probably just this once.
So dont get carried away.
Rgds
TerryH
S'pose being a commie may have something to do with it ,,,,,
Do with what? The abilty to do mundain jobs like clean a sludge
tank or scrape a hull. Maybe even doing a bit of low viz
tethered work.
You seem to carry your commercial ticket around as a stick
to beat us so-called lesser mortals with, dispite the fact
that an awful lot of commie work is basic grunt stuff and has
amost nil comparsion with scuba.
How about instead of answering this post with a personal
diatribe, you actually argue the point as to why you think the
Air2 and the suicide bottle is such a good idea.
TerryH
The air2 and similar devices were frequently bought as an AAS. Less so now I think as people have become more used to the idea of carrying an AAS.
Teaching the use of AAS with an air2 was never ideal. However the new training scheme seems to make it almost impossible. To use the air2 the donor takes the air2 and donates their standard DV. This means that under the new scheme the recipient takes the DV from the donors mouth leaving the donor to find their air2.
As a number of people in our branch are still using air2s and similar I wondered if there was a standard procedure for teaching this. Or any tips other than buy an octopus.
I have read the replies so far...
Personally I would not advocate teaching with equipment configurations that can't be standardised. That is, both the student and instructor will be equipped with a reg and octo and with a BCD equipped with standard inflate controls.
Should a qualifed diver choose to dive with a reg and AIR2 then that diver and his/her buddy should ensure both are clear on the out of air procedure for a) anticipating out of air / being in full control with imminent out of air and b) an immediate spontanious out of air situation.
Given a) then I would expect the donor to replace his/her reg with their AIR2 and present their reg so that it is clearly visible to the recipient.
Given b) then I would expect the donor to be practised enough that they would not panic when the 'out of air' casualty rips their reg from their mouth (potentially ripping the mouth piece in the same move)and be calm enough in ensuing fracas to find and use their air2.
I think its wrong to debate the merits of AIR2 as an item of equipment but right to cover the typical scenarios that might arise and how they might be dealt with.
Thumper Rider
13-06-2003, 14:26
Quotes":=Quite honestly the best place for the Air2 is in that box out
in the garage. You know the one with the ABLJ in it :-) "
Without getting into the slagging match which this thread appears to have degenerated into! I strongly disagree with the above comment but am willing to listen to the reasons for it.
My own AAS setup is a 3l pony strapped to my main bottle but I have an air2 as I don't see the point of having a hose dangling by my shoulder which is only capable of doing half the job it could. If I need to donate I give my pony reg, however if I have a problem with my main reg I can go straight to the air 2 and still be able to donate....
and is it just me or is the main reg most likely to give problems when I've already donated my pony and am stressed/working hard and sucking lots of air through it?!
No I don't think an air2 on its own is an adequate substitute for an octopus/pony/long hose rig.... but what's wrong with it as a backup?
Just my thoughts,
Comments anyone?
GS
Andy Nye
13-06-2003, 19:51
Quotes":=Quite honestly the best place for the Air2 is in that box out
:=in the garage. You know the one with the ABLJ in it :-) "
Without getting into the slagging match which this thread appears to have degenerated into! I strongly disagree with the above comment but am willing to listen to the reasons for it.
*** You took the words right out of my mouth,perhaps we are one of a few ****
My own AAS setup is a 3l pony strapped to my main bottle but I have an air2 as I don't see the point of having a hose dangling by my shoulder which is only capable of doing half the job it could. If I need to donate I give my pony reg, however if I have a problem with my main reg I can go straight to the air 2 and still be able to donate....
and is it just me or is the main reg most likely to give problems when I've already donated my pony and am stressed/working hard and sucking lots of air through it?!
*** Tooooooooo right ********
No I don't think an air2 on its own is an adequate substitute for an octopus/pony/long hose rig.... but what's wrong with it as a backup?
Just my thoughts,
Comments anyone? I'll Buddy up with you anytime ........Andy
GS
Honest awnser is that it's entirely up to you wheter the
disadvantage of another point of failure outways the advantage
of another AAS.
But ...........
The title of the thread is "Teaching with Air2" and dispite
any fans of this device there is one major flaw.
The purge is on the end. That's right precisely where the dump
valve is on most BC hoses. We have all seen students (even
after quite a bit of practice) getting two buttons confused.
Imagine the faff factor with three!
Of course this can be taught and practice will overcome the
problem (eventually), but the aim of basic training should be
just that. Basic.
Too many times on these fora we have threads which spout
ideas/methods which should be either consigned to the bin or
shelved for later. These guys are after all newbies and that
must IMO always mean KISS.
TerryH
Steve L.
14-06-2003, 11:09
I`ve got an Auto Air which, over the past several years, I`ve used on and off as an AAS. There is no doubt about it, if you want a minimalist approach, it`s idea. However, for diving in the UK, it has a number of drawbacks.
I`d agree, it an out of air incident (your buddy is out of air or has a problem), it makes sense to give him/her your primary reg, and you breath off the Air2/Auto air. You are then left with trying to control bouyancy during the ascent with the controls you need stuck in your mouth (assuming you are diving without a dry suit as bouyancy) . All this with someone hanging on the end of your primary reg. Unless practised very regularly, it could be very difficult, especially coming up from 20 or 30 mtrs. without a shotline as a datum.
Secondly, you should`nt really be diving in the UK without a delayed SMB, especially on boat dives away from the shore. It`s a bit of a chore removing your primary reg, replacing it with the Auto-Air and using the primary for inflating the SMB. I do what most others do and use the AAS to inflate the delayed SMB. The purists amongst you will say you should have a seperate air hose gun type of thing, but thats another hose and more clutter.
To take you primary reg out and use that whilst holding your breath is to invite disaster.
So, all in all, I`ve, after much deliberation gone back to a conventional set up with second reg as an AAS, abandoned a unweildy 3 gauge console in favour of a single pressure gauge, a back up depth gauge in a pouch on my BCD and a compass on the wrist.
Maybe next week I`ll have changed again
Steve
Unless practised very regularly, it could be very difficult, especially coming up from 20 or 30 mtrs. without a shotline as a datum.
And in essence isnt that the problem?
It is now pretty well accepted that in an OOA incident, it's
the most practiced and not the most efficient skill that
tends to get used. Hence dropping BB.
So more practice on an Air2 will result in that being used as a
first response, over the more acessable Octo.
But ......
Even if you discount the faff factor. The success (or failure)
of an Air2 relies on training and familarity of kit. How on
earth is a stranger supposed to comprehend how to get it right
after a brief buddy check?
The world and his wife use octo, not Air2's.
TerryH
Philip Smith
15-06-2003, 12:45
And in essence isnt that the problem?
It is now pretty well accepted that in an OOA incident, it's
the most practiced and not the most efficient skill that
tends to get used. Hence dropping BB.
That was asserted at the time BB was dropped, but I don't know on what evidence. The incident statistics show nearly all reported OOA and freeflow incidents in recent years dealt with by use of an AAS. I suspect there are many more successfully resolved incidents that go unreported.
Phil S
That was asserted at the time BB was dropped, but I don't know on what evidence.
BSAC ran an experiment using NI's. They got them to swim up and down a swiming pool fast whilst being watched. After a while the watcher gave an OOA signal - the majority commenced buddy breathing rather donating an octopus because they had spent far more time teaching it than AAS.
mark palmer
15-06-2003, 17:05
i got an air11 with my seaquest bc and i like it - it has been with me on over 600 dives winter and summer shallow and 60m deep and never caused me a problem, i have used it on many training dives including teaching aas - i donate my main reg. i now carry an octopus too just to be bsac pc but the air11 is definitely not going in the garage yet. my only complaint is when teaching cbl students keep trying to dump with the purge in spite of very clear buddy checks. tekkies in the club slag them as substandard but as i said it has performed better than my apeks and poseidons....
i got an air11 with my seaquest bc and i like it - it has been with me on over 600 dives winter and summer shallow and 60m deep and never caused me a problem, i have used it on many training dives including teaching aas - i donate my main reg. i now carry an octopus too just to be bsac pc but the air11 is definitely not going in the garage yet. my only complaint is when teaching cbl students keep trying to dump with the purge in spite of very clear buddy checks. tekkies in the club slag them as substandard but as i said it has performed better than my apeks and poseidons....
Mark. You have used and are happy with the Air2, that's your
choice and I would fight for your right to use it even if I
disageed. However your students dont have that choice. By using
an Air2 you are adding another layer of difficulty in what to
some is a very stressful situation. Not only have they to learn
CBL's, but they have an added problem which you eluded to of
figuring out your Air2. It's hard enough getting them to
remember which button to press between two. Add a third and
your are just stacking up the task loading.
So while it's absolutely ok to use yor Air2 on dive, dives.
I would strongly disagree with anything that varies from the
absolute basics for training.
Rgds
TerryH
Steve Walker
15-06-2003, 18:46
So while it's absolutely ok to use yor Air2 on dive, dives.
I would strongly disagree with anything that varies from the
absolute basics for training.
Rgds
TerryH
I'm tending to agree, but what constitutes "the basics"?
If I'm teaching "take my primary" to trainees in a club which invariably practices "take donated octopus", am I increasing task loading or showing them a simpler (and supposedly more likely) option?
The AAS issue ties in with the other equipment topic about newbies and wings, i.e. keep it simple (KISS) in the early stages (up to and following Ocean Diver), then once the basics are (hopefully!) well learned, expand on the variety of equipment configurations and techniques.
Cheers
iainmsmith
15-06-2003, 19:40
I'm tending to agree, but what constitutes "the basics"?
If I'm teaching "take my primary" to trainees in a club which invariably practices "take donated octopus", am I increasing task loading or showing them a simpler (and supposedly more likely) option?
Steve,
You can't teach that! After all:
"You'll die if you try to take my primary!"
(NDO, DOC, Dec 2002)
Iain
iainmsmith
15-06-2003, 19:42
:=That was asserted at the time BB was dropped, but I don't know on what evidence.
BSAC ran an experiment using NI's. They got them to swim up and down a swiming pool fast whilst being watched. After a while the watcher gave an OOA signal - the majority commenced buddy breathing rather donating an octopus because they had spent far more time teaching it than AAS.
It would be an interesting experiment to repeat with a group well practised in both BB and in "donating the primary".
Iain
Steve Walker
15-06-2003, 21:22
:=I'm tending to agree, but what constitutes "the basics"?
:=If I'm teaching "take my primary" to trainees in a club which invariably practices "take donated octopus", am I increasing task loading or showing them a simpler (and supposedly more likely) option?
Steve,
You can't teach that! After all:
"You'll die if you try to take my primary!"
(NDO, DOC, Dec 2002)
:
Sounds like a whole new thread waiting to happen ;)
You got a link for that Iain, I couldn't find that quote at this link
Chee-az
Steve
iainmsmith
15-06-2003, 22:41
:="You'll die if you try to take my primary!"
:= (NDO, DOC, Dec 2002)
:
Sounds like a whole new thread waiting to happen ;)
It already did. See:
<a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/2064.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/2064.html</a>
The disappointing thing is how many people on these fora got very upset with me for pointing out that there was no possible way to interpret that quote which reflected well on the NDO, yet failed to show any way in which it could do so.
You got a link for that Iain, I couldn't find that quote at this link
The question regarding long hose use came up in Open Forum, the specifics of which have never been published beyond the bland statement that:
"The Open Forum was given over mainly to clarifying points introduced by speakers and offering valuable feedback to NDC."
Iain
iainmsmith
15-06-2003, 22:42
:=Oh my goodness...I find myself completely in agreement with Terry with regard to both issues.
:=
:=That probably ought to say something...other than that I have just scared myself with the above observation!
:=
Careful Iain, it's probably just this once.
So dont get carried away.
:-)
To be fair, it has happened before. Not often, but it does happen!
Iain
Philip Smith
15-06-2003, 22:52
BSAC ran an experiment using NI's.
Do you know why NIs were used? They're hardly representative of the membership.
the majority commenced buddy breathing rather donating an octopus
Worrying (if they had been kept in the dark about the purpose of the experiment).
because they had spent far more time teaching it than AAS.
The experiment as described does not exclude other possible reasons that may or may not apply to the membership generally.
Phil S
I'm tending to agree, but what constitutes "the basics"?
If I'm teaching "take my primary" to trainees in a club which invariably practices "take donated octopus", am I increasing task loading or showing them a simpler (and supposedly more likely) option?
The AAS issue ties in with the other equipment topic about newbies and wings, i.e. keep it simple (KISS) in the early stages (up to and following Ocean Diver), then once the basics are (hopefully!) well learned, expand on the variety of equipment configurations and techniques.
Yep that's about it. I would go for the bog standard almost
worldwide grab octo approach. Until you get to the second tier
of diver grades (Sport/AOW). Once that's out of the way and
mastered I see no reason why you cant introduce donate primary
etc.
And all tied in with the same topic. Next time you get a bunch
of newbies who are just learning to kit up. Watch them.
Almost all will look to each others rig to make sure they are
doing it right (no pun intended). Some will even watch you do
it to make sure it's right.
So what if the rig is different? IMO basic means both
Instructor and student. It is precisely for that reason that
twins are not welcome on any of our clubs training dives.
By the time the student starts to see twins etc. It's on a dive
where they are ready to use them themselves and they have the
rescue skills to match.
As always KISS.
Rgds
TerryH
Steve Walker
16-06-2003, 15:29
Cheers for that Iain, that thread passed me by. To my way of thinking, Lizzie's statement seems to be in direct conflict with the stated notion that BSAC prides itself on turning out "Thinking Instructors". Certainly the trainees I have taught (at enty level) have found no problem taking my primary. I take it the issue was somehow resolved sufficiently that the branch stayed within BSAC?
Just one point, which for historical reasons I hesitate to mention so excuse me for being circumspect, the long hose/primary donation, as well as a number of other factors in that philosophy, was in use long before "The Klan" appropriated it as somehow exclusively "theirs" (as you may guess I'm not a big Klan Fan)
Cheers
Steve
iainmsmith
16-06-2003, 20:00
Cheers for that Iain, that thread passed me by. To my way of thinking, Lizzie's statement seems to be in direct conflict with the stated notion that BSAC prides itself on turning out "Thinking Instructors".
Well, quite. But it would seem that one is only allowed to think as long as one "thinks" the Party line.
> Certainly the trainees I have taught (at enty level) have
> found no problem taking my primary.
Curiously enough, in three years of teaching it from entry level, we had no problems either.
> I take it the issue was somehow resolved sufficiently that
> the branch stayed within BSAC?
Not really. It happened late enough in our training cycle that it hasn't affected our training. Yet. It is on the list of questions that need addressing before the new training year starts for us in Sept/Oct. My personal position is that I will not teach in OW using any other technique. Equally, I see no point in teaching a technique in CW that I would not want trainees to use in OW, hence at the moment, I am only teaching SD and above.
Just one point, which for historical reasons I hesitate to mention so excuse me for being circumspect, the long hose/primary donation, as well as a number of other factors in that philosophy, was in use long before "The Klan" appropriated it as somehow exclusively "theirs" (as you may guess I'm not a big Klan Fan)
I don't dispute this. You may have noticed from the thread that not once did I try to justify anything on the basis of it being "DIR", "WKPP" or "because GI3 says so". (Although, to be fair, I think it is the detractors who suggest that the "Klan" made it theirs - it's certainly not a position taken by the DIR lists which I am on.) It's just unfortunate that so many people assume that because a technique is part of the overall DIR system it is automatically wrong.
Iain
keith snell
22-06-2003, 21:04
:=
:=As a number of people in our branch are still using air2s and similar I wondered if there was a standard procedure for teaching this. Or any tips other than buy an octopus.
Dont know of any standard procedure, but thinking logicly
it might be best to teach any reg out = grab air2.
(Notice I said might, in case anybody wants to jump down my
throat)
So even if your main comes out you get the air 2 first then
replace it with your main, once its recovered.
In this way taking the primary in a rescue will have the same
response as simply taking the reg out.
Reg out for any reason = get air 2.
Of course you could argue that this make them air 2 dependent
and they might go for it even when they have an octo, but as
you havnt got octos your are changing the skill anyway.
So IMO this is probably the best way.
I'm sure somebody will be along in a minute to say otherwise.
HTH
TerryH :-)
you might want to encourage people to dive with the regulatior that has the longest hose as their primary reg, it is ALWAYS in the same place (hopefully) easy to find, then use the short hose reg for your self Air2 was never the best solution but a cheaper option, providing the buddy pairs using air2 dive together on a regular basis perhaps they could come up with technique, or, encourage them to spend some dosh.
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