Instructor training, how much? [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

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Chris Boardman

09-05-2003, 18:19

john kendall

09-05-2003, 19:45

Hi,

I am interested to know if anyone can pin down two facts for me.

1, When training to become a BSAC instructor, how much time, in total, is spent training the candidate how to teach? I am not talking about teaching experience within the branch..etc but how much mandatory instruction does an aspiring instructor get on HOW to teach.
2, If an aspiring instructor decides, they want the maximum instructor training possible (again, I am not talking about practice or assessment, these I see as POST training activates to practice the teaching skills ALREADY acquired)

The reason for my question is an article I have pending and I want to get all my facts straight. PADI require a 9-10 day, 8am to 10pm course on instruction technique and it does not seem to exist with the BSAC. As far as I can tell, the method is 'learn within the Branch' .....but who taught them???

I'd appreciate some informed feedback

The Route to becoming an OWI (open Water Instructor) with BSAC is as follows:

2 day Instructor Foundation Course (IFC) here you are taught the basics of Teaching in the classroom, and in the swimming pool

1 day OWIC (Open water instructor Course) The skills learnt on the IFC are then moved into open water.

You then need to pass the Theory Exam, Theory Instructor Exam, and Practical Instructor Exam.

In general, you need to do a reasonable amount of In branch practice to be able to pass these exams.

HTH
John

Eric Russell-Brown

09-05-2003, 20:16

Chris,

here's the BSAC link you need

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/learn/its.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/learn/its.htm</a>

Regards,
Eric

AlanTaylor

09-05-2003, 21:14

Hi,

I am interested to know if anyone can pin down two facts for me.

1, When training to become a BSAC instructor, how much time, in total, is spent training the candidate how to teach? I am not talking about teaching experience within the branch..etc but how much mandatory instruction does an aspiring instructor get on HOW to teach.
2, If an aspiring instructor decides, they want the maximum instructor training possible (again, I am not talking about practice or assessment, these I see as POST training activates to practice the teaching skills ALREADY acquired)

The reason for my question is an article I have pending and I want to get all my facts straight. PADI require a 9-10 day, 8am to 10pm course on instruction technique and it does not seem to exist with the BSAC. As far as I can tell, the method is 'learn within the Branch' .....but who taught them???

I'd appreciate some informed feedback

Cheers,

Chris

Come on Chris, BSAC v ???? may I suggest you use the links shown, join the Biggest diving club in the world and be really informed. Something that the BSAC has been very good at for 50 years and still works.

Keep on fishin'

Alan

Chris Boardman

09-05-2003, 22:07

Chris Boardman

09-05-2003, 22:08

Chris,

here's the BSAC link you need

http://www.bsac.org/learn/its.htm

Regards,
Eric

Thanks Eric,

Chris Boardman

09-05-2003, 22:15

:=Hi,
:=
:=I am interested to know if anyone can pin down two facts for me.
:=
:=1, When training to become a BSAC instructor, how much time, in total, is spent training the candidate how to teach? I am not talking about teaching experience within the branch..etc but how much mandatory instruction does an aspiring instructor get on HOW
Come on Chris, BSAC v ???? may I suggest you use the links shown.
O dear, sorry Alan, this is not an us V them thread and you won't burst into flames by typing PADI...perhaps you could call them "you know who" instead...Oh, no, someone already did that in a book :-)
join the Biggest diving club in the world and be really informed.
I am a member of BSAC, I enjoy my club life, it does not mean I can't have concerns about it.
Something that the BSAC has been very good at for 50 years and still works.

There are a lot of things that we did 50 years ago that we don't do today, 100 years ago we used to own 3/4 of the worlds land mass too....Sitting on laurels is never a good idea.

Keep on fishin'
I don't fish, I like to watch them...but if I had been, who got hooked....

Alan

Paul Oliver

10-05-2003, 00:30

Sitting on laurels is never a good idea.

Chris

I have to agree with you there. BSAC membership is falling, but the club has taken many measures to correct this.

Personally being used to Military Instructors courses i feel that the "Training the Trainer" time is short, but hey, its a hobby, we are not paid and we have to find the time.

I feel that the right balance of Quality and Atainability has to be there, and with the new ITS this appears to be in place.

I do have two big issues with it in that i feel it is a bit too introverted, but that is improving.

I do not agree with candidates for instructor exams not being told at the dive debrief what they have done wrong / failed for. But that is an issue that has been agreed by the various coaching scheme staff, who are putting the time and effort into making the training happen.

Regards

Paul

iainmsmith

10-05-2003, 07:54

:=2 day Instructor Foundation Course (IFC) here you are taught the basics of Teaching in the classroom, and in the swimming pool

I know, I attended one, it was very interesting, an excellent criteria...but the reality was an hour in the pool were we got to demo one skill (15mins each) and had to present a 10 minute lecture. This was VERY instructive...but seemed a mere glimpse into the world of teaching. Additionally, I was concerned that this was attendance only, not a pass/fail...for an Instructor grade. This doesn't seem correct?

It's an _Assistant_ Instructor Grade. The instructor trainee is not allowed to sign off lessons and must be supervised by a nationally qualified instructor. Until the instructor trainee has completed the necessary assessments, for classroom and pool sessions, supervision is "on-site". For OW lessons, a SD/ADI must be supervised "in-water", whereas a DL/ADI may be supervised from the surface.

I am not particularly keen on the latter, as I don't see how adequate supervision can be carried out from the surface, however as DLs are qualified to take unqualified divers in the water, whereas the SD/ADI is not and can only teach novices, I suppose the balance is better than it could be.

I also suspect that if all ADI-instruction required "in water" supervision, those majority of those Uni clubs which have managed to survive the last couple of rounds of ITS rewriting would have to abandon entry-level instruction.

:=1 day OWIC (Open water instructor Course) The skills learnt on the IFC are then moved into open water.

So there is no more 'teaching how to teach' after the IFC weekend? This was my concern.

Much of it is repetition (and reinforcement) of what was taught on the IFC. I'm not sure that there is all that much more (in terms of principles) to teach after the IFC, though.

:=You then need to pass the Theory Exam, Theory Instructor Exam, and Practical Instructor Exam.
OK, but I have attended Instructor assessments with another agency and watched a couple of VERY poor divers get by in the limited confines of the assessment.

Which is why, within BSAC at least, there is an extra level of QC, in that all diving has to be sanctioned by the DO. You don't mention whether this other agency does a full week of assessments or assesses in a similar way to the BSAC.

Consider also the implications of (what I think) you are suggesting - that a week long course is preferable. For a commercial outfit, this may be true. For a non-commercial agency, this is hopeless. Few will take a week's leave in order to learn how to teach, so our instructor numbers will plummet, thus our trained-divers numbers will plummet and the Club will not be able to survive. Increasing the number of weekends required for instructor training will have a similar effect - we don't get paid to do it, we're giving up good dive-time to learn and be assessed on how to do it and there is a balance to be struck between the requirements that we impose on our would-be instructors and how much these same would-be instructors are prepared to give up to achieve the desired result.

Additionally, I have been informed that the practical assessment can be 'skipped if X amount of hours teaching are logged in the pool with the branch. Is this correct?

Chris - you need to go and read all the ITS documents on this site. If you had done so, you would have answers to most of your questions and would know that this is a hang-over from the previous evolution of instructor training. Then, after an Instructor Training Course, a DL/Assistant Club Instructor could sit a theory paper and a pool assessment to get qualified as a Club Instructor, who was then allowed to teach unsupervisied in open water. The OWIC could then be attended, the grade of OWI being awarded on the completion of 12 hours of logged open water instruction.

You might feel that this was something of an anus-over-elbow way of going about things, and you might well be right, which is why the OWIC now has to be attended before OW instruction may be conducted.

The option of "logging time" has been retained for existing Club Instructors, as they have already been assessed "in water", and asking them to do both the OWIC and the PIE would be asking them to give up two weekends, pay more and go through additional assessments to reach the same point that their peers did without such. It is not an option for those coming through the new training scheme.

:=In general, you need to do a reasonable amount of In branch practice to be able to pass these exams.

What concerns me, is that you in the branch, trainee instructors do their practicing on novices and I would argue that it is the novices who need the best grounding.

True, on both counts. This is why supervision is required and why the NQI has to be confident of the quality of teaching given before signing the lesson off.

What I see happening, is people are learning to teach, by teaching, rather then learning to teach THEN teaching. Surely this can't be the best way?

How do you learn to be a good diver? By doing the course, to learn the principles, then going diving to actually become a diver. The same is true of instruction. You learn the theory, you practise the theory in a controlled environment, you then put the theory into practise for real under supervision.

Thanks for taking the time John, and feel free to put me straight if I am in error.

For all the flaw that may exist in BSAC instructor training, don't you think that if there were serious issues with it, we'd be over-represented in the annual incident statistics? For a recreational agency, we don't do too badly, do we?

Just promise us that this isn't for a hatchet-job piece for any particular magazine?

Iain

edward haynes

10-05-2003, 09:15

Chris

If I understand you question correctly you are referring to the time INPUT for acquiring teaching skills, i.e. the amount of time attending lectures and under practical instruction.

I believe ALL the diving organisations have moved on from that thinking to concentrate and assess the OUTPUT, i.e. can the candidate actually teach safety.

Does it really matter if a candidate undergoes 5 continuous days of intensive teaching instruction then does an internship at a school before presenting themselves for assessment as an instructor. Or 4 days (2 on theory, 2 on practical skills) split over two weekends then acts as an assistant instructor in their branch before presenting themselves for assessment as an instructor.

It is not the amount of time spend under teaching instruction, but whether the candidate can actually teach. Would you expect a teacher to require the same time to learn how to teach diving skills as a ????? (don?t want to upset any industry).

Edward

Chris Boardman

10-05-2003, 11:57

:=:=2 day Instructor Foundation Course (IFC) here you are taught the basics of Teaching in the classroom, and in the swimming pool
:=
:=I know, I attended one, it was very interesting, an excellent criteria...but the reality was an hour in the pool were we got to demo one skill (15mins each) and had to present a 10 minute lecture. This was VERY instructive...but seemed a mere glimpse into the world of teaching. Additionally, I was concerned that this was attendance only, not a pass/fail...for an Instructor grade. This doesn't seem correct?

It's an _Assistant_ Instructor Grade. The instructor trainee is not allowed to sign off lessons and must be supervised by a nationally qualified instructor. Until the instructor trainee has completed the necessary assessments, for classroom and pool sessions, supervision is "on-site". For OW lessons, a SD/ADI must be supervised "in-water", whereas a DL/ADI may be supervised from the surface.

>OK in theory. In reality, supervision is light and in a club >environment, telling someone they didn't teach it correctly, >so it will not signing it off is unlikely to happen; Pier pressure.

I am not particularly keen on the latter, as I don't see how adequate supervision can be carried out from the surface,

>Agreed

however as DLs are qualified to take unqualified divers in the water, whereas the SD/ADI is not and can only teach novices, I suppose the balance is better than it could be.

>So who is the first person to teach a brand new diver? A >novice teacher.

I also suspect that if all ADI-instruction required "in water" supervision, those majority of those Uni clubs which have managed to survive the last couple of rounds of ITS rewriting would have to abandon entry-level instruction.

:=:=1 day OWIC (Open water instructor Course) The skills learnt on the IFC are then moved into open water.
:=
:=So there is no more 'teaching how to teach' after the IFC weekend? This was my concern.

Much of it is repetition (and reinforcement) of what was taught on the IFC. I'm not sure that there is all that much more (in terms of principles) to teach after the IFC, though.

>I disagree, 15mins demo and feedback in the pool did not give >me the tools I needed. Obviously, some learn faster than >others, for a few it is a natural ability, but I believe the >IFC weekend, although fascinating, is insufficient.

:=:=You then need to pass the Theory Exam, Theory Instructor Exam, and Practical Instructor Exam.
:=OK, but I have attended Instructor assessments with another agency and watched a couple of VERY poor divers get by in the limited confines of the assessment.

Which is why, within BSAC at least, there is an extra level of QC, in that all diving has to be sanctioned by the DO. You don't mention whether this other agency does a full week of assessments or assesses in a similar way to the BSAC.

>Unfortunately, PADI assessed in exactly the same way an people >unfit to teach got through.

Consider also the implications of (what I think) you are suggesting - that a week long course is preferable. For a commercial outfit, this may be true. For a non-commercial agency, this is hopeless. Few will take a week's leave in order to learn how to teach, so our instructor numbers will plummet,

>I agree, this is why more rigorous teacher training would >discourage, but for those who stayed, the quality would be >higher and for those who are in it for status (which is a lot, >regardless of agency) the kudos much higher!

thus our trained-divers numbers will plummet and the Club will not be able to survive.

>I am not sure it is quite that simple, but I agree, it is a >distinct possibility, but should that be the deciding factor >in deciding how much training is necessary? Whether people will >want to do it?

in effect - we don't get paid to do it, we're giving up good dive-time to learn and be assessed on how to do it and there is a balance to be struck between the requirements that we impose on our would-be instructors and how much these same would-be instructors are prepared to give up to achieve the desired result.

>When we train a diving instructor, we are training someone to >teach on how to survive in an alien environment, a place where >people cannot survive without life support equipment. It is >not a rocket science sport, but fairly minor mistakes can get >you killed.
>I don't believe that how much time someone can commit to the >training should enter into he equation. Commercial pilots do >not get to do it in a few weekends, because that is all the >time they can spare. They are responsible for lives.

:=Additionally, I have been informed that the practical assessment can be 'skipped if X amount of hours teaching are logged in the pool with the branch. Is this correct?

Chris - you need to go and read all the ITS documents on this site. If you had done so, you would have answers to most of your questions and would know that this is a hang-over from the previous evolution of instructor training.

>I found myself getting bogged down and somewhat confused in my >hunt for info, I also wanted peoples informed opinion, and for >which, I thank you.

Then, after an Instructor Training Course, a DL/Assistant Club Instructor could sit a theory paper and a pool assessment to get qualified as a Club Instructor, who was then allowed to teach unsupervised in open water. The OWIC could then be attended, the grade of OWI being awarded on the completion of 12 hours of logged open water instruction.

You might feel that this was something of an anus-over-elbow way of going about things, and you might well be right, which is why the OWIC now has to be attended before OW instruction may be conducted.

The option of "logging time" has been retained for existing Club Instructors, as they have already been assessed "in water", and asking them to do both the OWIC and the PIE would be asking them to give up two weekends, pay more and go through additional assessments to reach the same point that their peers did without such. It is not an option for those coming through the new training scheme.

>This I didn't know, thanks.

:=:=In general, you need to do a reasonable amount of In branch practice to be able to pass these exams.
:=
:=What concerns me, is that you in the branch, trainee instructors do their practicing on novices and I would argue that it is the novices who need the best grounding.

True, on both counts. This is why supervision is required and why the NQI has to be confident of the quality of teaching given before signing the lesson off.

>I think the reality is more likely to be ADI says "he did the >skills" and the NQI says "OK"

:=What I see happening, is people are learning to teach, by teaching, rather then learning to teach THEN teaching. Surely this can't be the best way?

How do you learn to be a good diver? By doing the course, to learn the principles, then going diving to actually become a diver. The same is true of instruction. You learn the theory, you practice the theory in a controlled environment, you then put the theory into practice for real under supervision.

>Yes, I agree with this process of course, but my original >query was over how much time is spent training the teacher to >teach......a weekend; 15mins in pool, give 10min >lecture...then into the novices.

:=Thanks for taking the time John, and feel free to put me straight if I am in error.

For all the flaw that may exist in BSAC instructor training, don't you think that if there were serious issues with it, we'd be over-represented in the annual incident statistics? For a recreational agency, we don't do too badly, do we?

>That, is a very fare point.

Just promise us that this isn't for a hatchet-job piece for any particular magazine?

>I don't do hatchet-jobs, especially on my own club, but I do >report facts 'warts and all' if appropriate. That is the plus >of writing for a magazine that does not represent a single >agency and I believe what makes it valuable to the readers.
>
>There was many positives to the course I reviewed too, some over and above other agencies I reviewed, these will also be >reported on.
>
>Cheers,
>Chris B

Iain

Chris Boardman

10-05-2003, 12:13

Chris

If I understand you question correctly you are referring to the time INPUT for acquiring teaching skills, i.e. the amount of time attending lectures and under practical instruction.

>No, not lectures, but practical demonstrations on how to teach >and teaching techniques, then (what I found the most >instructive) giving mock lessons, then getting feedback, on >EVERY skill I would be teaching to novices, not just a demo of >one or two.

I believe ALL the diving organizations have moved on from that thinking to concentrate and assess the OUTPUT, i.e. can the candidate actually teach safety.

>I agree that some people can teach effectively with minimal >instruction, however, it hard to control quality when so >little input is given at the start.

Does it really matter if a candidate undergoes 5 continuous days of intensive teaching instruction then does an internship at a school before presenting themselves for assessment as an instructor.

>No, not if they can teach effectively.

Or 4 days (2 on theory, 2 on practical skills) split over two weekends then acts as an assistant instructor in their branch before presenting themselves for assessment as an instructor.

>I think if you break down the amount of time actually demoing >lecture/in-water skills, over those two weekends, you will >find it adds up to about 1.5-2H and no I don't think this is >sufficient to be good....maybe enough to 'get by'
>It's also worth reiterating that the IDC weekend, the one >where you are supposed to learn the teaching >skills/techniques, is an attendance only. Other agencies, the ones who are 'moving away from this style of instructor training' Score and pass/fail at this stage; good quality control.

It is not the amount of time spend under teaching instruction, but whether the candidate can actually teach.

>The end result is hardly in dispute, what I query is 'how much is enough?'

Would you expect a teacher to require the same time to learn how to teach diving skills as a ????? (don?t want to upset any industry).

>How much time do you think a teacher is taught and assessed on >teaching skills/techniques...? and they are not training >people in a life threatening activity.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>Chris.

Edward

Chris Boardman

10-05-2003, 12:21

As you can see, I myself require additional training in IT typing skills >>>>> Do BSAC run a course in that? If so is it pass fail??

:-)

Thanks all for the opinions.

Chris B

beanie

10-05-2003, 13:55

As you can see, I myself require additional training in IT typing skills >>>>> Do BSAC run a course in that? If so is it pass fail??

:-)

Thanks all for the opinions.

Chris B

no

good job too else you only be allowed to use half the keys ;-)

but i'll do you one that is pass/ fail and if you fail, you have to keep coming back subject to a fee of course ;-)

back to the point of your early questions

as a personal opinion of someone who hasn't been on the courses but has received tutition from those who have i feel that bsac have got this right, if the results are right then the solution must be at least good enough to get the right results.

i don't really think that you can teach someone to teach diving the person has to be entusiastic about diving and above all be a good well versed diver to get the points accross

beanie

Mike Halligan

10-05-2003, 15:21

Chris,

I think you have much of the answer I would give in other responses and your drilling-down in some areas has proved fruitful. However, let me assure you where concerns still remain, and point up at the outset that I am no more than an AD/OWI working in-Branch - occasionally supporting some NW Regional events where I am able.

Corrective instruction of ADIs -
I supervise ADIs, we use them wherever possible in classroom, pool and (if DL) open water. I prefer to operate in-water as two accompanying buddy pairs of NQI/student and ADI/student. Thus we can bring the 2 students together where it helps reduce ascents etc. I expect the brief, debrief and as much as possible of the input to come from the ADI. If something needs correction, I will intervene at the best point for (a) the student's learning and (b) the ADI's confidence. Then, out of the students' hearing, I will offer advice to the ADI. NB: It is IMHO the ADI's duty to learn and mine to assure the learning of the students. I can help the ADI, but demand compliance only with what's within the DTP.

Accepting the word of the ADI -
Where I have dived with and later instructed alongside a particular AOWI (i.e they are DL and have had their OWIC), I will understand what (s)he considers acceptable and what not. IME, these distinctions will lie further UP the scale of difficulty than I would apply. This is probably because I have seen more marginal students, done more corrective instruction and know better how to re-test in the course of the lesson. Thus an AOWI well known to me will be sent off unaccompanied under water and asked "Were you satisfied?" and little (apparently) more on return. The student/casual observer does not see the hours of diving and discourse in branch meets, during travel and on dive sites that have gone into establishing the relationship that seems so casual. That is the nature of BRANCH instruction.

Encouraging the completion of OWI -
As OWI, and for the last 10 days TO, I see it as a vital part of my activity to encourage and facilitate the completion of OWI. This spans both pointing out to Club Instructors who have attended AIC that they really should submit logs to get OWI and mentoring our ADIs through TI exam and their DL course with all points between. When we encourage a community of instruction within the Branch, we make progress every time instructors (in which we include ADIs) meet.

Moderation -
My DO knows me and watches me closely to assure himself, he is one who is right now extending himself from CI to OWI. We debate the finer points of the DTP when away on trips - because that's when we actually have time, whether cleaning boats, pumping air or just taking the fresh air (and polluting it). We contemplate how best to develop Branch strengths and address weakness. Instructor numbers, performance and qualification are in there with everything else. He shares his concerns with me, and I share mine with him. Where appropriate, we raise them with other Instructors - we are fortunate to have an AI and a NI in the Branch - and come to a corporate view of issue and resolution.

Training management -
Combining what I have written with the excellence of the BSAC's DTP and ITS, we should perhaps review the whole. This rich tapestry, that forms a balanced scorecard of Branch training, is constantly reviewed and submitted to committee scrutiny. Can we claim a professional approach to the management of traing? I would rather ask do we need to? Better to look at the output, which is a respectable number of happy, safe divers all making their way to DL at their own speed.

Comparisons -
I believe it is unrealistic to compare the development of a BSAC OWI in-Branch with the training of a professional OWSI. The latter may be abandoned at certification to make his/her own way in the commercial world, having to work to strictly defined modules / criteria and to sort out the "soft" issues in isolation. The two environments are totally different and therefore the training and assessment to deal with them differs. I must add that I have dived with professional instructors of more than one code, and with their students post-certification. I have also been trained by BSAC branch, region, school and ITS as well as other organisations including the unmentionable. I cannot say that any was IME stronger or weaker.

I hope this helps your research.

Mike
TO, Southport Branch

Chris Boardman

10-05-2003, 17:01

Chris,

I think you have much of the answer I would give in other responses and your drilling-down in some areas has proved fruitful. However, let me assure you where concerns still remain, and point up at the outset that I am no more than an AD/OWI working in-Branch - occasionally supporting some NW Regional events where I am able.

Corrective instruction of ADIs -
I supervise ADIs, we use them wherever possible in classroom, pool and (if DL) open water. I prefer to operate in-water as two accompanying buddy pairs of NQI/student and ADI/student. Thus we can bring the 2 students together where it helps reduce ascents etc. I expect the brief, debrief and as much as possible of the input to come from the ADI. If something needs correction, I will intervene at the best point for (a) the student's learning and (b) the ADI's confidence. Then, out of the students' hearing, I will offer advice to the ADI. NB: It is IMHO the ADI's duty to learn and mine to assure the learning of the students. I can help the ADI, but demand compliance only with what's within the DTP.

Accepting the word of the ADI -
Where I have dived with and later instructed alongside a particular AOWI (i.e they are DL and have had their OWIC), I will understand what (s)he considers acceptable and what not. IME, these distinctions will lie further UP the scale of difficulty than I would apply. This is probably because I have seen more marginal students, done more corrective instruction and know better how to re-test in the course of the lesson. Thus an AOWI well known to me will be sent off unaccompanied under water and asked "Were you satisfied?" and little (apparently) more on return. The student/casual observer does not see the hours of diving and discourse in branch meets, during travel and on dive sites that have gone into establishing the relationship that seems so casual. That is the nature of BRANCH instruction.

Encouraging the completion of OWI -
As OWI, and for the last 10 days TO, I see it as a vital part of my activity to encourage and facilitate the completion of OWI. This spans both pointing out to Club Instructors who have attended AIC that they really should submit logs to get OWI and mentoring our ADIs through TI exam and their DL course with all points between. When we encourage a community of instruction within the Branch, we make progress every time instructors (in which we include ADIs) meet.

Moderation -
My DO knows me and watches me closely to assure himself, he is one who is right now extending himself from CI to OWI. We debate the finer points of the DTP when away on trips - because that's when we actually have time, whether cleaning boats, pumping air or just taking the fresh air (and polluting it). We contemplate how best to develop Branch strengths and address weakness. Instructor numbers, performance and qualification are in there with everything else. He shares his concerns with me, and I share mine with him. Where appropriate, we raise them with other Instructors - we are fortunate to have an AI and a NI in the Branch - and come to a corporate view of issue and resolution.

Training management -
Combining what I have written with the excellence of the BSAC's DTP and ITS, we should perhaps review the whole. This rich tapestry, that forms a balanced scorecard of Branch training, is constantly reviewed and submitted to committee scrutiny. Can we claim a professional approach to the management of training? I would rather ask do we need to? Better to look at the output, which is a respectable number of happy, safe divers all making their way to DL at their own speed.

Comparisons -
I believe it is unrealistic to compare the development of a BSAC OWI in-Branch with the training of a professional OWSI. The latter may be abandoned at certification to make his/her own way in the commercial world, having to work to strictly defined modules / criteria and to sort out the "soft" issues in isolation. The two environments are totally different and therefore the training and assessment to deal with them differs. I must add that I have dived with professional instructors of more than one code, and with their students post-certification. I have also been trained by BSAC branch, region, school and ITS as well as other organizations including the unmentionable. I cannot say that any was IME stronger or weaker.

I hope this helps your research.

Mike

Mile,

Thanks for the mail, it would seem you are involved with a club that applies the model rigorously and it works and perhaps it is this that concerns me.
Diver training quality seems to vary greatly from instructor to instructor and branch to branch, having said this, I don't think this phenomena is a BSAC thing, rather a human one. Perhaps I am looking for instructor utopia.

My concern was and still is the early stages of instructor training, I do not think it is adequite training fro people to teach consistantly well but I have to except your point that accident stats would not seem to support an argument that there is a significant problem....if the model is properly applied.

I can see no point on which I really differ with your own views, so it would seem this thread has pretty much done it's job. I particularly agree with your final point; it is also my experience, life is about people, not the badge they ware; I have seen good and bad instruction under many headings.

Thanks for taking the time.

Chris B

AlanTaylor

10-05-2003, 19:20

:=:=Hi,
:=:=
:=:=I am interested to know if anyone can pin down two facts for me.
:=:=
:=:=1, When training to become a BSAC instructor, how much time, in total, is spent training the candidate how to teach? I am not talking about teaching experience within the branch..etc but how much mandatory instruction does an aspiring instructor get on HOW
:=Come on Chris, BSAC v ???? may I suggest you use the links shown.
O dear, sorry Alan, this is not an us V them thread and you won't burst into flames by typing PADI...perhaps you could call them "you know who" instead...Oh, no, someone already did that
in a book :-)

Really? BSAC v SSI,YMCA,USOA,SSAC,CUGA,DLRG,IANTD,CMAS etc do you intend to feature all these diver teaching organisations? and oh yes PADI, there done it and your quite right no flames.

join the Biggest diving club in the world and be really informed.

I am a member of BSAC, I enjoy my club life, it does not mean I can't have concerns about it.

Well done we appreciate your membership, if you are so concerned join a coaching team and help improve the teaching abilitys of our instructors and coaches that includes spelling skills, in your spare time of course and expenses only.

Something that the BSAC has been very good at for 50 years and still works.

There are a lot of things that we did 50 years ago that we don't do today, 100 years ago we used to own 3/4 of the worlds land mass too....Sitting on laurels is never a good idea.

Agreed, but take another look at the WUF(CMAS)and just consider how many national bodies have modelled there programmes on BSAC methods. Must be doing something right. Don't see any mention of PADI sorry thats an association of diving instructors, and yes unfortunatly BSAC itself is no longer mentioned either. Shame that.

:=
:=Keep on fishin'
I don't fish, I like to watch them...but if I had been, who
got hooked....

Sorry that should be trawlling? for information, and i never was one for the diplomatic corps were the BSAC is concerned.

As part of your research tell me is it still true that it is possible to become a PADI(typed it again)instructor,from novice, without actually going anywhere else than Stoney Cove by that i mean in the sea, no offence to Stoney(Ex National Diving Center)or any other inland site.

Enough,

Love and stuff

Alan

AlanTaylor

10-05-2003, 19:38

:=Chris,
:=
:=I think you have much of the answer I would give in other responses and your drilling-down in some areas has proved fruitful. However, let me assure you where concerns still remain, and point up at the outset that I am no more than an AD/OWI working in-Branch - occasionally supporting some NW Regional events where I am able.
:=
:=Corrective instruction of ADIs -
:=I supervise ADIs, we use them wherever possible in classroom, pool and (if DL) open water. I prefer to operate in-water as two accompanying buddy pairs of NQI/student and ADI/student. Thus we can bring the 2 students together where it helps reduce ascents etc. I expect the brief, debrief and as much as possible of the input to come from the ADI. If something needs correction, I will intervene at the best point for (a) the student's learning and (b) the ADI's confidence. Then, out of the students' hearing, I will offer advice to the ADI. NB: It is IMHO the ADI's duty to learn and mine to assure the learning of the students. I can help the ADI, but demand compliance only with what's within the DTP.
:=
:=Accepting the word of the ADI -
:=Where I have dived with and later instructed alongside a particular AOWI (i.e they are DL and have had their OWIC), I will understand what (s)he considers acceptable and what not. IME, these distinctions will lie further UP the scale of difficulty than I would apply. This is probably because I have seen more marginal students, done more corrective instruction and know better how to re-test in the course of the lesson. Thus an AOWI well known to me will be sent off unaccompanied under water and asked "Were you satisfied?" and little (apparently) more on return. The student/casual observer does not see the hours of diving and discourse in branch meets, during travel and on dive sites that have gone into establishing the relationship that seems so casual. That is the nature of BRANCH instruction.
:=
:=Encouraging the completion of OWI -
:=As OWI, and for the last 10 days TO, I see it as a vital part of my activity to encourage and facilitate the completion of OWI. This spans both pointing out to Club Instructors who have attended AIC that they really should submit logs to get OWI and mentoring our ADIs through TI exam and their DL course with all points between. When we encourage a community of instruction within the Branch, we make progress every time instructors (in which we include ADIs) meet.
:=
:=Moderation -
:=My DO knows me and watches me closely to assure himself, he is one who is right now extending himself from CI to OWI. We debate the finer points of the DTP when away on trips - because that's when we actually have time, whether cleaning boats, pumping air or just taking the fresh air (and polluting it). We contemplate how best to develop Branch strengths and address weakness. Instructor numbers, performance and qualification are in there with everything else. He shares his concerns with me, and I share mine with him. Where appropriate, we raise them with other Instructors - we are fortunate to have an AI and a NI in the Branch - and come to a corporate view of issue and resolution.
:=
:=Training management -
:=Combining what I have written with the excellence of the BSAC's DTP and ITS, we should perhaps review the whole. This rich tapestry, that forms a balanced scorecard of Branch training, is constantly reviewed and submitted to committee scrutiny. Can we claim a professional approach to the management of training? I would rather ask do we need to? Better to look at the output, which is a respectable number of happy, safe divers all making their way to DL at their own speed.
:=
:=Comparisons -
:=I believe it is unrealistic to compare the development of a BSAC OWI in-Branch with the training of a professional OWSI. The latter may be abandoned at certification to make his/her own way in the commercial world, having to work to strictly defined modules / criteria and to sort out the "soft" issues in isolation. The two environments are totally different and therefore the training and assessment to deal with them differs. I must add that I have dived with professional instructors of more than one code, and with their students post-certification. I have also been trained by BSAC branch, region, school and ITS as well as other organizations including the unmentionable. I cannot say that any was IME stronger or weaker.
:=
:=I hope this helps your research.
:=
:=Mike

Mile,

Thanks for the mail, it would seem you are involved with a club that applies the model rigorously and it works and perhaps it is this that concerns me.
Diver training quality seems to vary greatly from instructor to instructor and branch to branch, having said this, I don't think this phenomena is a BSAC thing, rather a human one. Perhaps I am looking for instructor utopia.

My concern was and still is the early stages of instructor training, I do not think it is adequite training fro people to teach consistantly well but I have to except your point that accident stats would not seem to support an argument that there is a significant problem....if the model is properly applied.

I can see no point on which I really differ with your own views, so it would seem this thread has pretty much done it's job. I particularly agree with your final point; it is also my experience, life is about people, not the badge they ware; I have seen good and bad instruction under many headings.

Thanks for taking the time.

Chris B

I am glad that this topic has served a worthwile purpose.

Its like Mcdonalds v Mamas home made Shepherd's pie

You can start with the same ingredients but....

Answers on a postcard, its good to talk

Alan

TerryH

10-05-2003, 21:09

Something you may not have thought of when making comparisons.

Not all ADI's are the same.

The minimum requirement for the IOC is Sport Diver. Subsequent
training as an ADI is always under the direct supervision of an
Instructor. Not unlike a PADI DM who is NOT allowed to teach,
but can re-teach skills already demonstrated by full
Instructors.

Before taking the OWIC, TIE or PIE you need to be a Dive
Leader. So unlike PADI where you become a diver first and an
Instructor second. BSAC has both Diver & Instructor grades
running in parallel.

So an ADI can be a new Sport diver or an experienced Dive
Leader. Same Instructor grade, but NOT the same diver grade.
So logicly the ammount of supervison required will vary greatly
depending on the neccessity for supervison.

Our new ADI's get to do nothing more than partial mask clear or
maybe reg recovery as one single part of set coursework. They
will eventually progress (again under supervison) until they
can do all the requirements of the Ocean diver course, at the
same time they are working towards Dive Leader. Eventually
they will increase there Instructor responsiblities until they
are confident enough to take the exams.

The BSAC Instructor system CANNOT be seen as a stand alone
course. The skills gained by completing diver grades are an
intergral part of the system and should always be factored in
when making any comparisons.

ADI = Sport/Dive Leader
OWI = Dive Leader
AI = Advanced Diver
NI = 1st Class

So instead of working out the hours required to acheive just
the Instructor grade on the left column. Try adding the hours
neccessary for the diver grades in the right column as well.
They do go together and for the purposes of getting the ticket
are inseperable.

TerryH

Chris Boardman

10-05-2003, 22:58

I was going to let this thread die, but you raise a couple interesting points:

Something you may not have thought of when making comparisons.

Not all ADI's are the same.

The minimum requirement for the IOC is Sport Diver. Subsequent
training as an ADI is always under the direct supervision of an
Instructor. Not unlike a PADI DM who is NOT allowed to teach,
but can re-teach skills already demonstrated by full
Instructors.

A PADI DM is trained by a PADI OW instructor who has themselves a attended a ten day course on how to teach.
A PADI DM has to perform every skill in front of an Instructor, to demonstration standard, and is marked on each. Pass/Fail
Then they can re-teach an already demonstrated skill.
I am not pro/anti any body, I am a PADI instructor and a member of BSAC but I personally like this style of quality control.

Before taking the OWIC, TIE or PIE you need to be a Dive
Leader. So unlike PADI where you become a diver first and an
Instructor second. BSAC has both Diver & Instructor grades
running in parallel.

I am watching people in my own club who have just learned to dive go straight into this instructor training route, this concerns me.
Other agencies require minimum of 100 dives.

So an ADI can be a new Sport diver

Exactly

or an experienced Dive
Leader. Same Instructor grade, but NOT the same diver grade.
So logically the amount of supervision required will vary greatly

Dive skills are not directly my point, more the minimalist amount of training in TEACHING skills and techniques.

depending on the necessity for supervision.

Our new ADI's get to do nothing more than partial mask clear or
maybe reg recovery as one single part of set coursework.

Under the current scheme, that would seem a very sensible precaution, a view similar to that already expressed on this thread, but that is at branch level and is not necessary how all do it.

They
will eventually progress (again under supervision) until they
can do all the requirements of the Ocean diver course, at the
same time they are working towards Dive Leader. Eventually
they will increase there Instructor responsibilities until they
are confident enough to take the exams.

Good idea, but my POINT is that the would-be instructors are being taught their teaching skills by people who were not taught their teaching skills, who were taught by people who were not......etc, etc. I am getting at the missing Teacher training.

The BSAC Instructor system CANNOT be seen as a stand alone
course. The skills gained by completing diver grades are an
integral part of the system and should always be factored in
when making any comparisons.

I make comparisons to make a point, I am not saying their is a perfect system out there, what I saying is that training to HOW to teach is very foggy within this organization, the ONLY genuine technique training is in a single day of an IFC weekend, after that it only assessment, and a lot of the assessment is being done by people who have not themselves been taught how to teach in the most effective way. As for passing assessments. I sat and watched on PADI Instructor course as two DIRE divers managed to become instructors; it is not hard to train to jump through the specific hoops required by an assessment.

ADI = Sport/Dive Leader
OWI = Dive Leader
AI = Advanced Diver
NI = 1st Class

So instead of working out the hours required to achieve just
the Instructor grade on the left column. Try adding the hours
necessary for the diver grades in the right column as well.
They do go together and for the purposes of getting the ticket
are inseparable.

Being a good diver is certainly a pre-request of being able to teach it BUT being a good diver does not necessarily make you a good teacher, it is a different set of skills. I am a professional teacher and I know this to be the case.

I am not sugesting this problem is huge. I believe an intensive 3 days concentrating on teaching skills, demonstrating and getting feedback, lecturing techniques and practice with feedback would be the only change required to get this system up to speed.

Chris B

TerryH

Barry Goss

10-05-2003, 23:10

The reason for my question is an article I have pending and I want to get all my facts straight. PADI require a 9-10 day, 8am to 10pm course on instruction technique and it does not seem to exist with the BSAC. As far as I can tell, the method is 'learn within the Branch' .....but who taught them???
:=:=
:=:=I'd appreciate some informed feedback
:=
:=The Route to becoming an OWI (open Water Instructor) with BSAC is as follows:
:=
:=2 day Instructor Foundation Course (IFC) here you are taught the basics of Teaching in the classroom, and in the swimming pool

I know, I attended one, it was very interesting, an excellent criteria...but the reality was an hour in the pool were we got to demo one skill (15mins each) and had to present a 10 minute lecture. This was VERY instructive...but seemed a mere glimpse into the world of teaching. Additionally, I was concerned that this was attendance only, not a pass/fail...for an Instructor grade. This doesn't seem correct?

In addition to the points already raised, You attended your IFC, great, now how much unsupervised instruction have you been able to do in your club?? The idea behind the instructor grading as I see it is... You attend the IFC, this gives you an insight into instruction. Decide if you want to keep doing it.
If you do then great, get some experience under supervised conditions in club. I can teach you easily in a week to quote the train the trainer mantra, I can easily teach you how to parrot fashion a course, without really understanding it.

If you have the commitment to learn, in club, how to teach. Then you will learn and experience different ways of teaching each skill. For each student there is a different way of teaching each skill. which student requires which technique is something you don't learn in a week or in one hit, but something that is learnt by the instructor over months or years.

Now when you are a rounded instructor, attempt the exams.
In the same way that the strength of BSAC diver training is that the skills and knowledge gained is progressive and experience is gained under the watchfull eye of and instructor. That instructor is gaining skills and experience under the watchfull eye of a senior instructor or DO.
The other point that seems to be missed is that the student will not learn from one instructor only. Instruction is usually given by more than one instructor, each one going over skills and cross checking each other.

As an example, in our club...
A first dive will be undertaken with the DO, an OWI.
subsequent dives and training is undertaken with up to 4 other OWI's. A final checkout dive is then taken with the DO,
before that student is signed as an Ocean Diver.
During that checkout dive, the DO will check with the student their opinions of the Instructors they have had.
This is in addition to the normal checking which means that the DO can drop in on any instructor at any time, during a theory or practical lesson. You tell me of any agency which allows the instructor to have their skills and knowledge checked at any time.

HTH
Barry Goss
DO BSAC 2112
OWI 3059.

edward haynes

11-05-2003, 00:22

Chris

Have we finally got to the bottom of your posts. And who is to run these courses?

As a commercially qualified instructor do you propose to run these courses for our fledgling instructors - for the appropriate fee?

I am not sugesting this problem is huge. I believe an intensive 3 days concentrating on teaching skills, demonstrating and getting feedback, lecturing techniques and practice with feedback would be the only change required to get this system up to speed.

Chris B

TerryH

11-05-2003, 09:36

Reading your posts, I believe you took your IOC as a PADI OWSI.
I took mine (ITC) a few years ago now, as a PADI AI.

Dispite having as you say, done the PADI demos, I can honestly
say that there were elements on the ITC (IOC) that were missing
from the PADI courses and those elements have IMO made me a
better Instructor. However ........

You are looking at this from the perspective of a PADI guy who
is accepeted by your clubs DO as a full Instructor BEFORE you
even went on the IOC. To fully appreciate the way it works in
BSAC you have to understand (you seem a little confused at
present) that yor IOC/course doesnt end at the close of that
second day. It continues under the DIRECT supervision of
another Instructor and under the further control of both the DO
and the TO of the club.

As you say there may be clubs who dont utilise this system as
it was intended, but similar you talk of PADI Instructors that
get through the assessment process that shouldnt be
guiding let alone teaching.

Bottom line is that the same elements are taught in both.
It's just that PADI is done quick in a short set time, while
BSAC being very much a part-time volunteer organisation. Is
done over a much longer period and generally evenings and
weekends.

Now if your saying we need better record keeping to ensure that
the markers have been met, then yes I would agree with you. If
your saying that we need another course to enable managment
of Instructor trainees then the only area I would say yes where
the trainee wants to get it done quick, as per PADI.

Apart from that the current constant at mentoring, works and
works well.

Does the BSAC way churn out better Instructors than PADI or
visa versa. No. What turns out better Instructors is
experience. The courses are there to create a groundwork. The
exams are there to make sure your are not a total muppet.

Both systems work, but the only way to gain that true
Instructor status is to do the job.

TerryH

PeteM

11-05-2003, 11:35

>OK in theory. In reality, supervision is light and in a club >environment, telling someone they didn't teach it correctly, >so it will not signing it off is unlikely to happen; Pier pressure.

Not in any club I have seen - our club works on the basis you start with an NQI, watching and learning, after a few weeks you are allowed to teach some of the skills with the NQI stepping in if there is any problem, gradually as you learn more you are given more and more resposibility until eventually the NQI is just observing. At that point subject to the DO/TO approval supervision will be allowed to indirect. The NQI's doing this mentoring are also the more experienced instructors in the club. Every other club I have dealt with works in a similar way. In addition many clubs involve the regional coaching team in improving their instructors, particularly the assistants and new ones. Our club was fortunate in having an area coach in it until recently, frequently instructors from other clubs would come down to our pool for refreshers and additional instruction.

however as DLs are qualified to take unqualified divers in the water, whereas the SD/ADI is not and can only teach novices, I suppose the balance is better than it could be.

The import point here is the the DL course includes training on supervision of novice divers which is often covered in instructor courses in other organisations.

>So who is the first person to teach a brand new diver? A >novice teacher.

May be but only under the supervision of an NQI, as stated above that supervision will be direct unless the ADI has proved themselves.

>I disagree, 15mins demo and feedback in the pool did not give >me the tools I needed. Obviously, some learn faster than >others, for a few it is a natural ability, but I believe the >IFC weekend, although fascinating, is insufficient.

No but the many hours doing it again with an experienced instructor would have:

:=Which is why, within BSAC at least, there is an extra level of QC, in that all diving has to be sanctioned by the DO. You don't mention whether this other agency does a full week of assessments or assesses in a similar way to the BSAC.

>Unfortunately, PADI assessed in exactly the same way an people >unfit to teach got through.

In a club any poor instructors will not be allowed to teach, that's why we have the continuous QA monitoring by a DO and TO - how many other agencies can say that they have constant QA? None that I know.

>I am not sure it is quite that simple, but I agree, it is a >distinct possibility, but should that be the deciding factor >in deciding how much training is necessary? Whether people will >want to do it?

No but its a valid point about how long the instructor FOUNDATION course should be, note the emphasis, it is not an instructor course it is a course to give you the foundations to basis your teaching on, anyone doing the course and thinking that makes them an instructor is deluding themselves.

>I think the reality is more likely to be ADI says "he did the >skills" and the NQI says "OK"

I think this is a long way from reality - see my expanation of reality above, if an ADI is allowed to have indirect supervision then the NQI will have effectively assessed the ADI over a number of weeks, not just the half hour in the pool that every exam covers

>Yes, I agree with this process of course, but my original >query was over how much time is spent training the teacher to >teach......a weekend; 15mins in pool, give 10min >lecture...then into the novices.

Nope, see above.

>I don't do hatchet-jobs, especially on my own club, but I do >report facts 'warts and all' if appropriate.

Hopefully it will not be selective and will include the far longer training in club and region that just about every branch does

Pete

PeteM

11-05-2003, 12:02

A PADI DM is trained by a PADI OW instructor who has themselves a attended a ten day course on how to teach.
A PADI DM has to perform every skill in front of an Instructor, to demonstration standard, and is marked on each. Pass/Fail
Then they can re-teach an already demonstrated skill.
I am not pro/anti any body, I am a PADI instructor and a member of BSAC but I personally like this style of quality control.

So not a lot different to a BSAC ADI, although an ADI will have done it many times not just the once.

I am watching people in my own club who have just learned to dive go straight into this instructor training route, this concerns me.
Other agencies require minimum of 100 dives.

And I know people that have done these 100 dives at 7m for 15 minutes each in Guildenburgh and become an instructor with no sea experience. To become a BSAC instructor you must be a Dive Leader, for which you have got to have logged a specific number of hours in varied conditions, can not remember the amount of hours but it ensures an experienced rounded diver - far more so than one who can do their 100 dives in any conditions.

Dive skills are not directly my point, more the minimalist amount of training in TEACHING skills and techniques.

Which bit of Assistant don't you get.

Under the current scheme, that would seem a very sensible precaution, a view similar to that already expressed on this thread, but that is at branch level and is not necessary how all do it.

If branchs are not following the rules I suggest a call to the region, in the same way as another organisation breach the rules would get a call to thier QA department

Good idea, but my POINT is that the would-be instructors are being taught their teaching skills by people who were not taught their teaching skills, who were taught by people who were not......etc, etc. I am getting at the missing Teacher training.

What about the regional coaching scheme and how that interacts.

I make comparisons to make a point, I am not saying their is a perfect system out there, what I saying is that training to HOW to teach is very foggy within this organization, the ONLY genuine technique training is in a single day of an IFC weekend, after that it only assessment, and a lot of the assessment is being done by people who have not themselves been taught how to teach in the most effective way. As for passing assessments. I sat and watched on PADI Instructor course as two DIRE divers managed to become instructors; it is not hard to train to jump through the specific hoops required by an assessment.

That's the reason we have the final QA of a DO.

Pete

Chris Boardman

11-05-2003, 12:18

Chris

Have we finally got to the bottom of your posts. And who is to run these courses?

As a commercially qualified instructor do you propose to run these courses for our fledgling instructors - for the appropriate fee?

Edward, get a life.

:=I am not sugesting this problem is huge. I believe an intensive 3 days concentrating on teaching skills, demonstrating and getting feedback, lecturing techniques and practice with feedback would be the only change required to get this system up to speed.
:=
:=Chris B

Chris Boardman

11-05-2003, 12:21

lynn jackson

11-05-2003, 12:24

Chris

Have we finally got to the bottom of your posts. And who is to run these courses?

As a commercially qualified instructor do you propose to run these courses for our fledgling instructors - for the appropriate fee?

I do not believe that was Chris's point at all.

I am an ADI and a professional trainer (IT, Train the Trainer and Accelerated Learning as it happens....:-))and I have also been giving this some thought after attending one of the last ITCs.

I must say that essentially that, while there is room for refinement (and Chris might also add 'consistency'), what the BSAC has currently is not so bad as both Terry and Mike have pointed to the supervision and mentoring of ADIs up to their gaining of the instructor's qualification.

I also agree with Chris that a little more "Train the Trainer" content would speed up the competence of ADIs and ensure greater consistency immediately after their training.

I do feel however Chris that you need to balance the ideal with the practical for a club system such as BSAC. 3 days is not realistic for many people whereas I believe that you can usefully introduce people to the concepts in a 2-day course that would cover the fundamentals.

As for the cost, it's costed in the usual way of other BSAC courses.

Steve Walker

11-05-2003, 13:52

Folks, we seem to finally got to the point of circles and a differing of personal opinions impasse.

I thank you all for your input, it has been helpful to discuss the matter.

I would like to end the thread here. (Or at least my part of it)

Chris
One of the fundamental principles of debate is that once you start it you don't walk away from it just because you don't like the opposing arguments, which seems to be the case here.

Additionally, cheap jibes at Ed Haynes, someone who has given a fair bit of his time to BSAC, does nothing to make your case any stronger.

It sounds as if you think this thread plus your experience as a PADI Instructor and your time as a BSAC Member is sufficient research to critically evaluate two or more different teaching systems, as one involed in research professionally, I can tell you it isn't, and if you manage to get an 'Instructor Critique' published on the basis of this scant research, then whichever magazine does so will quite rightly will taken to task.

As for
but my POINT is that the would-be instructors are being taught their teaching skills by people who were not taught their teaching skills, who were taught by people who were not......etc, etc. I am getting at the missing Teacher training.

Absolute rubbish! All the "Teacher Training" I've received through BSAC has been of a sufficiently high quality from extremely experienced people, and certainly compares favourably with the various "Teacher Training" courses I've been through in Higher Education.

worst of all...
I am not sugesting this problem is huge. I believe an intensive 3 days concentrating on teaching skills, demonstrating and getting feedback, lecturing techniques and practice with feedback would be the only change required to get this system up to speed.

You seem to be making the assumption that the only abilities an Instructor has are those that are "taught" on a short-course. In reality a good Teacher/Instructor is the sum of a great many other life-experiences.

Also you need to acknowledge that a fair number of BSAC unpaid (and therefore supposedly non-professional) Instructors may (like myself) be or have been Professional (i.e. paid) Teachers/Instructors/Insert-educational-term-of-choice in other fields and will bring that experience with them when teaching scuba.

I for one would be extremely unimpressed at any article which suggested an intensive commercial scuba-teaching course outweighed several years of practical hands-on teaching experience witha a variety of subjects.

Regards

Steve W

Chris Boardman

11-05-2003, 18:30

:=Folks, we seem to finally got to the point of circles and a differing of personal opinions impasse.
:=
:=I thank you all for your input, it has been helpful to discuss the matter.
:=
:=I would like to end the thread here. (Or at least my part of it)
:=

Chris
One of the fundamental principles of debate is that once you start it you don't walk away from it just because you don't like the opposing arguments, which seems to be the case here.

Steve, you are free to continue 'debating' as much as you like, and in a democracy, I am free to bow out. I am sorry you feel the need to get aggressive because others do not agree with you, I do not think that I have actually said this to be the case, in fact through this thread, I have somewhat altered my views. Unfortunately, you seem to have decided I am 'the bad guy'

If you look back through the thread, I have kept my comment civil and I have tried to be courteous, except as you pointed out, to the person(s) who, without knowing me, my motivations or intentions, chooses to take 'a cheep shot' as you call it. He too has decided to interoperate a simple question and a suggestion made in all good faith, negatively. What a shame.

Additionally, cheap jibes at Ed Haynes, someone who has given a fair bit of his time to BSAC, does nothing to make your case any stronger.

See above and Mr. Haynes comment that provoked my response, you seem to have chosen to ignore this.

It sounds as if you think this thread plus your experience as a PADI Instructor and your time as a BSAC Member is sufficient research to critically evaluate two or more different teaching systems,

You have absolutely no idea what research I have/have not done, what I am writing about, what my background is or what I intend to write...yet you have instantly chosen to attack, how sad.

as one involved in research professionally, I can tell you it isn't, and if you manage to get an 'Instructor Critique' published on the basis of this scant research, then whichever magazine does so will quite rightly will taken to task.

Boy, you have got a loooong way down this road without any facts at all about my intentions......a bit like what you are accusing me of perhaps?

As for
:=but my POINT is that the would-be instructors are being taught their teaching skills by people who were not taught their teaching skills, who were taught by people who were not......etc, etc. I am getting at the missing Teacher training.

Absolute rubbish! All the "Teacher Training" I've received through BSAC has been of a sufficiently high quality from extremely experienced people, and certainly compares favorably with the various "Teacher Training" courses I've been through in Higher Education.

I am pleased to hear it, and accident stats, as pointed out to me earlier would seem to bare this out, but as you have pointed out to me, simply going on my own narrow experiences does not serve as enough research to draw solid conclusions (you really should try taking your own advice, some of it is quite good)

worst of all...
:=I am not suggesting this problem is huge. I believe an intensive 3 days concentrating on teaching skills, demonstrating and getting feedback, lecturing techniques and practice with feedback would be the only change required to get this system up to speed.

You seem to be making the assumption that the only abilities an Instructor has are those that are "taught" on a short-course. In reality a good Teacher/Instructor is the sum of a great many other life-experiences.

I agree, but how does he/she learn how to get these across if he/she dos not have any background in teaching? For many people it does not come easily.

Also you need to acknowledge that a fair number of BSAC unpaid (and therefore supposedly non-professional) Instructors may (like myself) be or have been Professional (i.e. paid) Teachers/Instructors/Insert-educational-term-of-choice in other fields and will bring that experience with them when teaching scuba.

People with former EDUCATIONAL TRAINING WOULD NOT NEED THE TUITION ON HOW TO TEACH BECAUSE AS YOU POINT OUT, THEY HAVE ALREADY HAD TRAINING IN IN HOW TO TEACH. THIS IS MY POINT!

I for one would be extremely unimpressed at any article which suggested an intensive commercial scuba-teaching course outweighed several years of practical hands-on teaching experience with a variety of subjects.

I am sure you will have some wise words to add to my own, but I am afraid I am going to exercise my democratic right and bow out here. Feel free to speculate as to my motivations, background, research capabilities....etc. to your hearts content. I am only saddened when people choose to take the aggressive route first and interoperate all that is written in a negative way. This is the reason I generally choose not to post on forms, because it invariably goes this way.

I will leave the last word to you Steve. I surrender.

Chris B

Regards

Steve W

Andrew Goldby

16-05-2003, 19:14

Coming to this thread a little late I have to admit to being a little confused ....
Learning how to teach ... hmmm ...
a) must be able to do the skills perfectly themselves (but learning the skills shouldn't be part of the Instructor course)
b) must be able to break down the skills into little learnable chunks (concentrated on in the course)
c) must be able to identify errors & correct them (again concentrated on)

I fail to see why b+c needs more than 2 (rather full) days.

The students then go away as Assistant Instructors and practice under the supervision of an NQI.

When they think they are good enough for the exam they can get a second opinion by calling in a coach / ITS member to watch them / teach them prior to the exam.

Then they take the exam.

I'm concerned that Chris mentions people with dubious skills being passed as instructors - was this a course or Exam - I hope it wasn't a BSAC exam an the ITS staff are usually not at all worried about asking someone to re-sit the exam if they are not good enough when they take it.

I will be interested to learn what PADI teach in the 10 days that is actually learning to teach rather than learning to dive ;-)

Steve Walker

18-05-2003, 22:22

I will be interested to learn what PADI teach in the 10 days that is actually learning to teach rather than learning to dive ;-)

Oh there's loads of stuff to learn: How to operate a cash register, processing credit card payments, what to do if a cheque bounces etc.... ;)
Cheers
Steve

Richie771

19-05-2003, 10:48

The BSAC instructor system works because we employ the branch system of training.

We are not a commercial enterprise that is here to make a profit, when I teach I am always out of pocket - I don't charge so called expenses! Fuel, Entrance fees to sites, meals Etc....

No-Body charged me these things when I was taught - It is all about giving something back, and wanting to expand your branches.

I teach because I get enjoyment from seeing people acheive and overcome things that they thought impossible for themselves.

I have paid to go on Diving courses that have been run commercially and I have to say that they are not anywhere near as good as Branch training. There is too much emphisis on timings and moving on before people are ready.

We are like any other voluntary organisation, we give up our time for the benefit of others.

And long may we continue to do so.

Richie Clare
Training Officer
Catterick SAC 1825

TerryH

20-05-2003, 13:18

In BSAC we all feel it's right to "put something back", but
there does come a time when the work and effort put in,
considerably outweigh anything received when originally trained.

I am sure that many of the Instructors who are now claiming
expenses, do so simply because the frequency of training and
club support is such, that the constant drain on personal
resources has become to much.

We freely give up our time, that doesnt mean we should give
up our wage packets as well.

TerryH
Training Officer
SUCS - BSAC 1624