View Full Version : Real out of air situations?
Turtle Dude
11-07-2008, 08:39
I have been diving for just over 20 years, most of it relatively easy diving in the UK and worldwide. In that time, thankfully, I have never had a real out of air situation (only in training).
I was just wondering if anyone on here had?
And if so, how and what happened?
(And I have no intention to criticise or slam someone - everyone makes mistakes we can all learn from; just intrested to hear and learn)
I have never had a real out of air situation (only in training).
And if so, how and what happened?
It happens because people don't think about their training and don't monitor their gas consumption. The more diving you do the less you need to check as you become aware of the diving you do.
There are still too many OOA situations in the incident reports, it shouldn't happen.
bythesea
11-07-2008, 09:07
It happens because people don't think about their training and don't monitor their gas consumption. The more diving you do the less you need to check as you become aware of the diving you do.
Quite a sweeping statement. It happened to my wife as the first stage on her set up basically exploded as the diaphragm ripped, 100 bar to empty tank in 3 seconds at 15 M, her mask got knocked off by the rush of air escaping from the tank. Thankfully she kept it together headed for the surface blowing out for all she was worth and was back in the water six hours later.
Moral: doesnt matter how careful you are sh*t happens so dont get complacent
Turtle Dude
11-07-2008, 09:17
It happens because people don't think about their training and don't monitor their gas consumption. The more diving you do the less you need to check as you become aware of the diving you do.
There are still too many OOA situations in the incident reports, it shouldn't happen.
... and I was trying to encourage people to talk about their situaitons.... :)
Nigel Hewitt
11-07-2008, 09:28
I took a red hot rebreather which was a bit empty and stepped into a nice cool Red Sea and was horrified at what the SPGs read thirty seconds later.
I put that down to stupidity and the slight 'it will be all right' of having done a deep dive on a course with a short fill. I won't do it now and I run a seperate buoyancy system.
deveugle
11-07-2008, 11:02
I had a first stage O-ring blow up at about 20 m in the Red Sea on my fifth dive or so ever - a drift dive. Tank was empty a lot faster than I wanted it to.
I was very lucky to have an instructor with us (who had taught me to dive the preceding week) who was sitting on top of me and pushing an octopus in my face before I had even completely exhaled and realised what was going on. He did not give me a chance to think about what we were doing and I finished the dive on his octopus (too much current to abort, boat expecting us to pop up at the end of the reef).
In retrospect a lot could have gone wrong: I could have panicked (more), I should not have been at that depth and current with so little experience and apparently badly maintained equipment etc .... but it didn't ....
It is to this day (knock on wooden plate in head) the only time I experienced an OOA situation and luckily my very fresh training kicked in and got me out of the Sudden High Intensity Training.
How's that for sticking to the script ? ;)
Peter
STEVE MC
11-07-2008, 12:56
Been involved with a couple of OOG incidents over the years. In one my buddy missed the shot and was towed back to it by the rib, unfortunately and unnoticed by him his octopus freeflowed while he hanging onto the side losing 90% of his gas, he reached the shot and after a brief pause descended. About 2 minutes into the dive he went OOG and we had to do an OOG ascent.
I've had a diaphragm on my main dv collapse/split so that it was only breathing in water, after the initial 'oh my god' moment I swapped regs, calmed down and thumbed the dive.
Lessons learned;
1) We should have rechecked our gas either prior to the descent or at the bottom of the shot before heading off
2) Get your regs serviced, I hadn't had them serviced for about 4yrs (250 plus dives) prior to the incident (if it aint broke dont fix it mentality):o
Quite a sweeping statement.
Hang on Turtle Dude said for real, I wasn't talking about kit malfunctions. I am talking about where people don't monitor their air properly that to me is a "real OOG situation".
Turtle Dude
11-07-2008, 14:36
Hang on Turtle Dude said for real, I wasn't talking about kit malfunctions. I am talking about where people don't monitor their air properly that to me is a "real OOG situation".
Apologies for any confusion of "real". Am interested to hear about any kit malfunctions.
Richard Whitcombe
11-07-2008, 14:40
Only one ive experienced was uncontrolled freeflow at about 28m after sending a DSMB up. Emptied rest of my tank in about 30 seconds as it was coming to ascent time anyway. Massive cloud of bubbles, spinning reg.
Just switched to pony and surfaced followed very closely by the 2 buddies.
FWIW i class a "real out of gas" situation as when someone is really out of gas regardless of how it came about.
Turtle Dude
11-07-2008, 14:49
100 bar to empty tank in 3 seconds at 15 M
I had a first stage O-ring blow up at about 20 m in the Red Sea on my fifth dive or so ever - a drift dive. Tank was empty a lot faster than I wanted it to
Emptied rest of my tank in about 30 seconds
Does make one think about how quickly I could actually get to my twinset manifold valves to either isolate or shut off the identified blown first stage. :eek:
Richard Whitcombe
11-07-2008, 14:55
I had a first stage O-ring blow up at about 20 m in the Red Sea on my fifth dive or so ever - a drift dive. Tank was empty a lot faster than I wanted it to.
That alone should be a screaming example of why DIN is a better reg connection.
deveugle
11-07-2008, 16:22
That alone should be a screaming example of why DIN is a better reg connection.
Rental gear ...
I have been diving for just over 20 years, most of it relatively easy diving in the UK and worldwide. In that time, thankfully, I have never had a real out of air situation (only in training).
I was just wondering if anyone on here had?
And if so, how and what happened?
(And I have no intention to criticise or slam someone - everyone makes mistakes we can all learn from; just intrested to hear and learn)
I've had a few scrapes in the past (mostly my own doing)
but I've ran out of air twice at depth. Both while doing decompression
and both times while diving single cylinders twice in the same day
deeper than 30mtrs.
The first time I had to ascend and missed some stops and the second
time I buddy breathed off a stab jacket mouthpiece for 10 mins (fun that was).
ozone
Ian bitmead
11-07-2008, 17:35
About 8 years back I was on a trip to the Red sea, on the second days diving I had a slight leak of air from my second stage when I put my kit together. After doing the usual repair (bang the bloody thing til it stops), I finished kitting up, did a buddy check and entered the water.
After starting to decend my buddy and I reached 13 meters when on trying to breathe in I got nothing, I grabbed my Octopus thinking it was a second stage problem. No air, (by now I had been without a breath for about 10 seconds, try breathing out and not breathing in, not nice when you're not expecting it and are underwater). I turned to my buddy (who qualified in order to go on the trip), and gave the out of air signal, she had seen I had a problem and had already got her octopus ready for me. We did a good controlled ascent and rejoined the diveboat. Until we were back on the boat and I showed her the problem she wasn't sure if it was part of a test or initiation.
I borrowed a set of regs for the rest of the day and hired some for the rest of the trip.
When I got home I took them to my LDS and showed him, the LDS owner had the manufacturers rep in later that week who put them on a cylinder, the same thing happened, Result was a recall on that first stage and an upgrade on the first stage for me
Nick Argue
11-07-2008, 18:07
Does make one think about how quickly I could actually get to my twinset manifold valves to either isolate or shut off the identified blown first stage. :eek:
Slob knob on the isolator, half the gas is safe in seconds.
Richard Whitcombe
11-07-2008, 18:23
Rental gear ...
And?
Hang on Turtle Dude said for real, I wasn't talking about kit malfunctions. I am talking about where people don't monitor their air properly that to me is a "real OOG situation".
How does the cause of having no gas make it any less real?
Vic.
And if so, how and what happened?
Here's mine...
I was having a bad day. My mask just would not stop leaking - and every time I cleared it, that meant a loop refill. That's a pain...
Anyway, I was running my diluent feed from a stage cylinder. Suddenly, there's a load of bubbles from under my left arm. You know they say that first stages always fail open? Not always - this one wasn't giving any more gas :-(
So I reached back to turn on the slide valve that enabled the onboard cylinder. Except that I couldn't find it - absolutely my fauilt, I hadn't practiced valve drills in a while.
I now have empty lungs (having just cleared my mask), empty counterlungs, and neither of my dil feeds is available. My "buddy" (the git) is a vague yellow haze at the edge of vis. My day wasn't getting any better...
The last port of call is to go open-circuit, so I did. AutoAirs work surprisingly well at ~60m :-) And the noise brought my buddy back with eyes like dinner plates :-) But a pony doesn't last long at that sort of depth, so I had to get back on-loop pretty sharpish. It was at that point that I thought it might be a good idea to bin the dive...
Then came a rather tricky bit; with my nose full of water (I'd given up on clearing the mask any more than was absolutely necessary). I was losing the ability to keep my airway separate - so breathing was causing gas to come out of my nose or water to go in. Not pleasant.The only thing I vcould think of was to hold my nose. That made the ascent even more interesting...
35 mins later, we broke the surface. That's a dive I don't want to repeat...
Vic.
ChristianG
12-07-2008, 18:24
Many years ago now I spent a long weekend with some friends in Jervis Bay. Our first order of business was to photograph the Port Jackson Sharks (http://www.austmus.gov.au/fishes/students/focus/heter.htm) mating around the piers of the Jervis Bay Naval facility, conveniently one of our party was an officer in the RAN so we stayed there for next to nothing.
One of the guys brought along a small RIB - as distinct from a RhIB - and we went out one day to dive a fabled site more often than not socked out by weather. This was winter, the westerlies were blowing, meaning that the open water was flat calm but the bay, in terms of size this is an Aussie bay, was an uncomfortable ride for three big guys with large amounts of camera equipment.
We get there, pick in and it's decided that I should go first so I gear up as quickly as possible, drop the camera over the side on its string and roll over, collect the camera and descend down the anchor line.
Problem! Stupid discovers that he's forgotten to attach the feed to the dry suit, doh. Never mind how much I try I can't get the wretched thing to attach which is really, shall we say, annoying. I get to the bottom (pretty well exactly 30 m) and I am decidedly squeezed.
Next thing is that the second stage primary doesn't want to play any more. No problem, I turn on the pony and grab that second stage. It explodes in bubbles. I'm distinctly uncomfortable, squeezed to the extent that I had bruises later to prove it when I happened to see one of my fellow divers casually coming towards me. I gave him the biggest "out of air" (I wasn't actually) signal ever and he dutifully hands me his primary.
I grab a few gobfuls as I indicate to him to turn my tank fully on. Yup! Stupid here had turned it on "just" only.
He did, I went back to my own primary and indicated to him that I was on my way up. He did ask why but Mr Murphy had been at play for altogether too long.
The sad thing was that conditions were simply perfect with the best part of 30 metre viz and, sadly, I've not had another opportunity to dive that site in anywhere near those conditions since.
There are a few lessons which could be learned in that little tale, but please, don't include the one that I shouldn't have been diving by myself, I would have easily made it back even if Jeff hadn't come along. As for "buddy checks" in a crowded RIB full of camera, just forget it.
Slob knob on the isolator, half the gas is safe in seconds.
No slob knob on the isolator, half the gas is also safe in seconds...
Vic.
No slob knob on the isolator, half the gas is also safe in seconds...
Vic.
... providing you are practised enough to do it in seconds.
(and if you are not why not????)
Turtle Dude
12-07-2008, 19:22
Hey the tales are really interesting, thanks.
Michael Purcell
12-07-2008, 19:45
... providing you are practised enough to do it in seconds.
(and if you are not why not????)
Isn't that the same with any basic skill?
If you can't do a skill safely and properly then you should be practicing it until you can. If you choose not to, then Darwin will hopefully sort things out.
I've had a few scrapes in the past (mostly my own doing)
but I've ran out of air twice at depth. Both while doing decompression
and both times while diving single cylinders twice in the same day
deeper than 30mtrs.
The first time I had to ascend and missed some stops and the second
time I buddy breathed off a stab jacket mouthpiece for 10 mins (fun that was).
ozone
Am I the only one to think doing another 30m after missing stops on the
first is Darwin territory. Ok we all make mistakes planning and yes you can
run out of gas, but to do that AND dive again when you didnt know what
the N2 was doing - come on :rolleyes:
Isn't that the same with any basic skill?
If you can't do a skill safely and properly then you should be practicing it until you can. If you choose not to, then Darwin will hopefully sort things out.
To a degree, but if it takes a minute to clear a flooded mask then no big deal. If it takes a minute to do a shut down then it is potentially fatal
Michael Purcell
12-07-2008, 20:03
Am I the only one to think doing another 30m after missing stops on the
first is Darwin territory. Ok we all make mistakes planning and yes you can
run out of gas, but to do that AND dive again when you didnt know what
the N2 was doing - come on :rolleyes:
In fairness Terry, he doesn't say the OOG situation was on the first dive of the day. And after the Darwin comment it will be unlikely he will come back and say it was. :)
Dave Whitlow
12-07-2008, 20:42
Apologies for any confusion of "real". Am interested to hear about any kit malfunctions.
Apart from in training I've never tried out of air myself but I was with someone when he did!
I was diving as part of a three when one of my buddies (twinset diver) made a beeline for the other and grabbed his octopus. After a couple of minutes they separated and shortly afterwards we made our ascent. Puzzled I "asked" but failed to understand the answer so figured I'd wait until we surfaced.
On the surface he explained that his air had started pulling and he believed he was out of air and went for the nearest supply. Once they were stable the other buddy looked at his gauge, laughed, opened the isolator, and all was well. However, for those moments he believed his air had gone so I guess this counts as a real "out of air" situation.
We know his isolator was open at the start of the dive but, as the knob moved quite easily and his hose was in contact with we believe there had been enough movement to close the valve.
I accept it wasn't equipment failure in the purest sense but it was a situation caused by an equipment problem and one which could have turned out quite different.
Dave
Dave Whitlow
12-07-2008, 20:51
Does make one think about how quickly I could actually get to my twinset manifold valves to either isolate or shut off the identified blown first stage. :eek:
If you are so concerned about shutdown times then you could fit a slob knob and second SPG and run with the manifold closed. You could then either swap regs or balance the cylinders during the dive. Should there be a catastrophic failure there are no shutdown drills to worry about and your only concern is choosing the right reg.
Dave
Dave Whitlow
12-07-2008, 21:04
In fairness Terry, he doesn't say the OOG situation was on the first dive of the day. And after the Darwin comment it will be unlikely he will come back and say it was. :)
True but, with missed stops on the first dive, the second dive would have better watched from the boat and the OOG would never have happened.
Also, I'd be worried about doing deco on 30m dives without my own backup supply. A pony may not be much use at 30m but would be fine for a stop at 6m if the primary supply is gone and is much tidier than clinging to a buddy.
Dave
Michael Purcell
12-07-2008, 21:12
True but, with missed stops on the first dive, the second dive would have better watched from the boat and the OOG would never have happened.
Dave
The OP didn't say he missed the stops on the first dive of the day (though he may well have. I am not speaking for him only commenting on his post)
My reading is they were 2 separate incidents on different excursions. The first time an incident occurred...(perhaps on the first dive of the day, perhaps not...he certainly didn't say it was from my reading of it)
Anyway, not important, just wanted to point out the assumption that was being made...
I've had a few scrapes in the past (mostly my own doing)
but I've ran out of air twice at depth. Both while doing decompression
and both times while diving single cylinders twice in the same day
deeper than 30mtrs.
The first time I had to ascend and missed some stops and the second
time I buddy breathed off a stab jacket mouthpiece for 10 mins (fun that was).
Well I've read it again and he says its happend twice and on the same day.
Ok he may be talking about some other incident, but then he would have
run out of air more than twice and he specificly says thats all he did.
Sorry, but the way its written there is no assumption, it was two dives on
the same day and he had problems on both.
Michael Purcell
12-07-2008, 21:52
Well I've read it again and he says its happend twice and on the same day.
Ok he may be talking about some other incident, but then he would have
run out of air more than twice and he specificly says thats all he did.
Sorry, but the way its written there is no assumption, it was two dives on
the same day and he had problems on both.
OK fair enough...bad choices in diving practice AND in his construction of sentences. :)
Originally Posted by ozone1
I've had a few scrapes in the past (mostly my own doing)
but I've ran out of air twice at depth.
Both while doing decompression and both times while diving single cylinders twice in the same day
deeper than 30mtrs.The first time I had to ascend and missed some stops and the second
time I buddy breathed off a stab jacket mouthpiece for 10 mins (fun that was).
I read it:
2 dives/day
Single cylinders
Deeper than 30m
But I guess you are right, it could be it was a double incident on the same day.
In which case I would agree with you. (Not that I disagreed with you to start with, other than the interpretation) :)
Well I've read it again and he says its happend twice and on the same day.
Ok he may be talking about some other incident, but then he would have
run out of air more than twice and he specificly says thats all he did.
Sorry, but the way its written there is no assumption, it was two dives on
the same day and he had problems on both.
Hi guys.
Just to avoid any confusion.
I have ran out of air twice.
The first time was on the second dive of the day using the same
cylinder for both dives. On the second dive (both deeper than 30mtr)
I ran out and had to miss a few mins of deco stop.
The second time was again the second dive of the day
and again both deeper than 30mtr but this time I
breathed off my buddies valve of her stab jacket.
Cheers ozone
Michael Purcell
13-07-2008, 21:13
Yeah, that is what I thought you were saying.
Though I missed the fact that you were double diving a cylinder.
Which is what Terry should have "broken a foot off in yer ass" for :)
Steve Pearson
13-07-2008, 22:21
As for "buddy checks" in a crowded RIB full of camera, just forget it.
This isn't aimed at you personally Christian, but your comment seemed an ideal opportunity to mention it.
Why is it that people think a buddy check should only be done with a buddy? I personally always run through a full check myself prior to the buddy check as if I were doing it to a buddy, that way if anything is wrong i can identify it immediately and take steps to resolve it before the proper buddy check. The same should apply to anyone including those intending going in alone(yes people actually do). With experience comes complacency and people should do a reality check and not assume that they aren't going to make mistakes. It just seems like common sense to me :)
Michael Purcell
13-07-2008, 23:32
Why is it that people think a buddy check should only be done with a buddy? I personally always run through a full check myself prior to the buddy check as if I were doing it to a buddy, that way if anything is wrong i can identify it immediately and take steps to resolve it before the proper buddy check. The same should apply to anyone including those intending going in alone(yes people actually do).
For better or worse this really ends up being the majority of our buddy checks when team diving in 20m, warm water, low current. Over the side, listen for air escaping, look for any kit not connected after the fall and meet at 3m for a bubble check. But I can say for certain each of us does a hands-on self check prior to falling over. We depend on each other so we depend that this is done.
BTW I am not suggesting this as best practice and advocate buddy checks.
If you can't do a skill safely and properly then you should be practicing it until you can. If you choose not to, then Darwin will hopefully sort things out.
I think "hopefully" is probably the wrong word there - although "inevitably" might fit ... :-(
Vic.
hilrosepaul
16-07-2008, 10:21
For better or worse this really ends up being the majority of our buddy checks when team diving in 20m, warm water, low current. Over the side, listen for air escaping, look for any kit not connected after the fall and meet at 3m for a bubble check. But I can say for certain each of us does a hands-on self check prior to falling over. We depend on each other so we depend that this is done.
BTW I am not suggesting this as best practice and advocate buddy checks.
I thought Steve was advocating a 'solo' buddy check IN ADDITION tothe 'actual' buddy check?
katdiver
19-07-2008, 12:23
When I was out in arabia, I knew two guys who had an interesting OOA situation. At about 20m on the way up a hose on the 1st stage fails leaving one without air pdq. Comes to his buddy who's diving an AtmoSphere full face mask and no octopus (he is an Aussie and octo's for puffs). Try buddy breathing on that! They got to the surface but I think it was a quick swimming ascent and blowing out all the way.......
And the lesson is..............
Michael Purcell
19-07-2008, 13:12
I thought Steve was advocating a 'solo' buddy check IN ADDITION tothe 'actual' buddy check?
He was, but if you had read Christian's piece that motivated the comment he had indicated that a proper buddy check was not possible (in a crowded RIB) Steve used that to ake his point that even in that situation a self check would have helped.
My team have exactly the same equipment config as me so a "buddy" check is not familiarizing me with their equipment. My self check is ensuring I am ready to dive and to support my team.
If it was an aggressive dive I would want to run through configuration and protocols but on the dives I described we have done this on shore and unless something has changed then we move forward. As I was discussing in the "technical" thread, the real problem with this is not that it is creating an unsafe environment for the team, but it is creating an unsafe environment for less experienced divers on the boat because it may on some level indicate to them that a "buddy" check is not an important part of their diving safety plan. Which begs the question, if we are not instructors are we obligated to model best practice to the less experienced people around us or is their safety, their responsibility. How many times have I got the "death look" from people when I quietly and respectfully suggested they may not want to sit on the side of the boat with their weight belt on.
alastair
19-07-2008, 13:57
When young and quite stupid I had two situations.
First was my very first open water dive, in Stoney of all places. Got so excited at actually being properly under water I forgot to look at my gauge and just simply breathed through the whole of my tank. Managed a buddy breathing ascent (pre octopus days) from about 9m or so.
Second was on the Somalia. My weightbelt slipped off at 30m. In trying to get it back on and buckled up I began to panic, and went through air at a silly rate. Ran out and had to do another buddy breathing ascent.
Moral of this for me is that things can go wrong very very quickly underwater, and there is no perception of danger until trouble actually happens. Also, young divers are often stupid divers (well I was at least)
Second was on the Somalia. My weightbelt slipped off at 30m. In trying to get it back on and buckled up I began to panic, and went through air at a silly rate. Ran out and had to do another buddy breathing ascent.
Thats a coincidence because one of my Out Of Air dives was on the Somalia.
Just as well we wer'nt diving together;)
Cheers ozone
.
ChristianG
19-07-2008, 15:56
He was, but if you had read Christian's piece that motivated the comment he had indicated that a proper buddy check was not possible (in a crowded RIB) Steve used that to ake his point that even in that situation a self check would have helped.
Here we have a bit of a conundrum:
1) I am not, never have been, never will be, an instructor. If only because I am not, never have been, never will be, a teacher of sufficient capability. I happen to believe that not everyone a teacher makes. My ex is a brilliant teacher (yet the closest she's come to water is probably the shower), I just don't have her capabilities and, fortunately, realise it. Thus I have no need to follow instructor mores, whatever they may be
2) I would have done exactly the same thing even in the most spacious of circumstances (but maybe without making as many errors at one time). Yet I'm, still, alive. Last time I looked anyway
3) I don't believe in presumptions. For example the presumption that someone makes, usually an instructor, when they first see me gearing up on a liveaboard and I'm not using a BCD - or wing in my case. Something like "you can't dive like that." The really sad thing is that these sad people really believe what they're saying.
I have this funny attitude that I am responsible for my own actions, never mind what they might be, and they include SCUBA diving. As well, it includes looking after myself underwater. Simple really and if I botch it up, why, I die.
Caveat: I have no relatives or otherwise hangers-on, thus the possibility of someone getting sued by some irate person is extremely remote, as it should be.
Ooops, is this a can of worms? :)
Michael Purcell
19-07-2008, 16:17
Christian,
I wasn't taking a poke at you...merely clarifying what I had said.
Our philosophies vary: I team dive and the idea is that the team comes back alive. If I (were to) solo dive, same principle. I want the team to come back alive. :p but just because we don't agree doesn't make one right or one wrong. It just means the people that dive with you need to make an informed decision just as I need to make an informed decision about who I will dive with and in what circumstances.
If someone on the team dies, it is the team that killed them and shares the responsibility.
He was, but if you had read Christian's piece that motivated the comment he had indicated that a proper buddy check was not possible (in a crowded RIB) Steve used that to ake his point that even in that situation a self check would have helped.
My team have exactly the same equipment config as me so a "buddy" check is not familiarizing me with their equipment. My self check is ensuring I am ready to dive and to support my team.One of the big benefits of a buddy check is that you do not have a single point of failure - yourself. In a crowded RHIB can you not complete your buddy check with the person next to you - we are all trained to do them.
If it was an aggressive dive I would want to run through configuration and protocols but on the dives I described we have done this on shore and unless something has changed then we move forward. Personally I do not see buddy checks as the appropriate time to become familiar with someone's kit, that is what briefings are for. A buddy check is a final functional check to make sure everything that needs to work is going to work the moment you hit the water.
As I was discussing in the "technical" thread, the real problem with this is not that it is creating an unsafe environment for the team, but it is creating an unsafe environment for less experienced divers on the boat because it may on some level indicate to them that a "buddy" check is not an important part of their diving safety plan.The main difference with less experienced divers is that they are perhaps more likely to make a mistake. Experienced 'team' members are not immune to mistakes though. I see experienced divers not doing buddy checks, and experienced divers jumping in making stupid mistakes - no weight belt, drysuit inflator not connected, open zips etc.
Richard Whitcombe
19-07-2008, 17:34
[QUOTE=MattS]drysuit inflator not connectedQUOTE]
That i admit is my most common "omission" lately. Usually noticed and remedie at about 3m when i try to put some air in and get a wet chest.
ChristianG
19-07-2008, 18:01
Christian,
I wasn't taking a poke at you...merely clarifying what I had said.
Our philosophies vary: I team dive and the idea is that the team comes back alive. If I (were to) solo dive, same principle. I want the team to come back alive. :p but just because we don't agree doesn't make one right or one wrong. It just means the people that dive with you need to make an informed decision just as I need to make an informed decision about who I will dive with and in what circumstances.
If someone on the team dies, it is the team that killed them and shares the responsibility.
Michael,
I, equally, wasn't in the least referring to you - in fact I hadn't even realised that I was responding to you and perhaps I should have simply generalised my post - sorry about that. :(
Yes, we may have (somewhat) different philosophies/responsibilities as regards diving and long may it remain so, just so long as we always continue to think about it, learn about it and learn from it.
As an example, although I might advocate looking after #1 curiously enough it seems to be that this #1 is the one that the people on the dive boat that I favour locally seem to look to to look after any new diver (not necessarily the same as a newbie) that might come along. I'm quite happy to do that, but I wouldn't be taking my camera and I would consider myself a self-sufficient diver taking care of another, never mind if that guy's name happens to be Hans Hass or not.
Mind, if it were to be Prof Dr Hass I would genuflect if he so much as glanced in my direction and I simply have no idea what I'd do if I saw Lotte after all these years.
ChristianG
19-07-2008, 18:07
Experienced 'team' members are not immune to mistakes though. I see experienced divers not doing buddy checks, and experienced divers jumping in making stupid mistakes - no weight belt, drysuit inflator not connected, open zips etc.
Take 'team' out of that and I'm happy with the comment.
We are humans, we make mistakes. The only mistake we make when we are referring to computers is when we say that it is/was a computer error. Computers don't make errors, human programmers do.
Take 'team' out of that and I'm happy with the comment.Ahh I was just alluding to 'The Team' which is creeping into the diving dictionary. It looks like the latest euphemism for 'better than you' that the marketing department can dream up, but I might just be a little cynical :o
We are humans, we make mistakes.Completely agree. I do not always do a buddy check, but I don't try to claim that I am above them. I always do a self check and that is usually enough to spot the missing weight belt or inflator hose. Sometimes it isn't and so far there has always been someone kind enough to point it out before I jump in and make a complete tit of myself.
The only mistake we make when we are referring to computers is when we say that it is/was a computer error. Computers don't make errors, human programmers do.So do human operators. They are in my experience less inclined to admit it though. Hmmm. Scratch that, neither group is inclined to admit it ;)
Andy (treerat)
20-07-2008, 10:20
I was buddied up with a bloke on a boat running out of Looe. He explaine dhis diving experiance and it was more than mine. We agreed to give the 100 bar signal followed by a 50 bar should we get that far.
We desended, had a bimble around the site and then my buddy indicated it was time to blobup. I checked my air still had around 150 bar, it wasn't deep so I was surprised it was blob tim ebut didn't argue.
I sent up the blob as arranged and then half way up he give me an OOA signal and heads for my reg. I donate him my main, I go onto my octo an dwe continue up to the surface in a safe controled manor.
On the boat I asked him what had happened and he was oblivious, he thought it was a 'great dive, good job you had plenty of air left'.
So second dive. This time he is due to lead, again only in the 15m range so down we go, round the wreck twice as if it's a race then back to the shot. I ask him if he's ok and he replies yes then up. We get to the boat, ask him if all is well and he replies that it was another great dive, nearly did it again though - on checking he had just over 10 bar left - I was still in the upper
100s.
It was a dodgy thing when he ran out, even more so that he didn't seem to acknowlegde what a cluster f*** it could have been. I never recieved a single air reading from him. I used to only check buddies air at the 100 bar point, I now do a 150 bar check as well as it gives me a clue as to what they are up to.
I did speak to the centre owner when I returned - I believe words were exchanged!
ANdy
Michael Purcell
20-07-2008, 17:28
Ahh I was just alluding to 'The Team' which is creeping into the diving dictionary. It looks like the latest euphemism for 'better than you' that the marketing department can dream up, but I might just be a little cynical :o
Or perhaps that team implies that you are "responsible" for each person while "buddy" is a term for casual acquaintance. Or perhaps because team acknowledges that 2 is not always the perfect grouping. But then I guess it is the Marketing department keeping accident rates down...
Richard Whitcombe
20-07-2008, 18:32
My view is (outside a training course) everyone enters the water capable of being 100% self sufficient and not having to rely on a 3rd party for any help at all. In short, everyone should be able to get *themselves* out of any situation they get into. This involves things like redundant gas planning and everything else.
My view is blindly relying on a (human) 3rd party who no-matter how well trained is still human so not 100% predictable in all situations isn't good.
So get in the water able to assist yourself and if a buddy needs help then by all means assist but never enter the water having to rely on someone else to save you.
Michael Purcell
20-07-2008, 18:40
My view is (outside a training course) everyone enters the water capable of being 100% self sufficient and not having to rely on a 3rd party for any help at all. In short, everyone should be able to get *themselves* out of any situation they get into. This involves things like redundant gas planning and everything else.
My view is blindly relying on a (human) 3rd party who no-matter how well trained is still human so not 100% predictable in all situations isn't good.
So get in the water able to assist yourself and if a buddy needs help then by all means assist but never enter the water having to rely on someone else to save you.
No arguments here...but really I don't think that is the case for a lot if not the majority of POW/OD divers (+ other entry level orgs). Which I would venture a guess make up a significant portion of the divers that enter the water on a daily basis. We can "hope" for a world where what you say is the case but it is far from the sad reality...
Richard Whitcombe
20-07-2008, 18:45
Granted a lot of divers aren't so equipped but anyone semi-experienced or diving regularly really should be at that level. They should be able to produce a sensible dive plan with sensible contingency plans and redundancy etc.
Self-sufficiency is a level divers should aspire to reach whereas blind reliance is the easy option and most definitely more dangerous.
Or perhaps that team implies that you are "responsible" for each person while "buddy" is a term for casual acquaintance.No not really. A buddy pair is simply a team of two. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_system
perhaps because team acknowledges that 2 is not always the perfect grouping.Personally I have been involved in surveys with up to 8 divers in the water working as a team, and I am happy to entertain one or more being the optimal grouping.
But then I guess it is the Marketing department keeping accident rates down...I can not argue with the statistics which show fairly catagorically that, in the UK at least, two is the safest grouping.
As I said I am a cynic. When things come along proclaiming to be new and super improved, I often find they are just old things with a superficial change.
Michael Purcell
21-07-2008, 01:04
No not really. A buddy pair is simply a team of two. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_system
I'm quite aware of what someone wrote on a wiki. I am also aware of the "intent" of the term "Buddy". I can assure you there are plenty of holiday divers that think it is closer to the common usage definition I used in the quote you commented on.
Personally I have been involved in surveys with up to 8 divers in the water working as a team, and I am happy to entertain one or more being the optimal grouping.
??I believe that was the point I was making??
I can not argue with the statistics which show fairly catagorically that, in the UK at least, two is the safest grouping.
As I said I am a cynic. When things come along proclaiming to be new and super improved, I often find they are just old things with a superficial change.
I wasn't discounting that a team of 2 in a lot of circumstances is an effective combination. Sorry, I'm just not sure hat you were saying but I am sure the core of it is in the bolded part...
Richard Whitcombe
21-07-2008, 01:19
Surely in holiday diver terms a "buddy" is someone you (usually) jump into the water with and thats about it?
Tristan Green
21-07-2008, 01:54
No not really. A buddy pair is simply a team of two. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_system
Or if you don't trust a wiki how about the definition from the BSAC Safe Diving Practices:
Buddy diving
All divers should train to be self-sufficient; however, it is important for safe diving that divers are formed into appropriate buddy pairs. Buddy diving means a pair of divers operating as a unit, each taking some responsibility for the safety of the other. On every dive one diver, usually the senior in grade or experience, should be elected as the dive leader. Divers with a minimum grade of Club/Ocean Diver may dive together at the discretion of the Branch Diving Officer. Divers below the grade of Club/Ocean Diver (i.e. divers under training) must be led by a qualified instructor or an Assistant Diving Instructor.
A full buddy check should be carried out prior to entering the water.
When snorkelling, dive alternately so that the snorkeller underwater is covered by their buddy at the surface.
Cheers,
Tristan
Second was on the Somalia. My weightbelt slipped off at 30m. In trying to get it back on and buckled up I began to panic, and went through air at a silly rate. Ran out and had to do another buddy breathing ascent.
Spooky. My weightbelt slipped off on the Somali (is that a different wreck)
I was lucky and managed to ascend with it hooked on my foot. I went on to a harness weight belt after that.
katdiver
26-07-2008, 04:49
Sure, in a buddy team the pair should be looking after each other, and outside a training environment it should be as simple as that. It would never stick in a court of law though, there are risks and when it comes to it, you are not responsible for your buddy if if he chooses to wander off or ignor signals or advice. Holiday situations are the worst, when divers mentally give up all control to the dive guide, and he has no previous history of their diving profile when they step on the boat.
katdiver
26-07-2008, 05:17
One weekend I was sitting on the beach waiting for my buddy to arrive, when 3 guys turned up and asked if they could dive with me and would I introduce me to that site as they had never dived it before. I was a rescue diver back then and all three of them were SD. So I briefed the site and the dive plan. It seemed a bit offputting, but one guy (call him number 3) had a fixation on weight release situations during the kit up and was still going on about it as we entered the water. As planned, at points during the dive I asked each diver for tank contents and each time I got back the contents from 1 & 2 but only an OK signal from number three, this went on all through the dive and I assumed we would all be back on the beach with 50 bar. WRONG! Recovering back and at 12m, number 3 taps me on the shoulder and shows me a gauge with 20 bar, so I offer him my octopus. He doesn't want it! So that's it, we all go up now, I give the signal and hear the gentle thump, thump of his integrated weights hitting the sand and he's bolting for the surface, no air. Work that one out, it beats me! So now I only accept "OK" from known and trusted buddies when it comes to air. Even my DSD students know how to take an octopus.
katdiver
26-07-2008, 05:27
Rental gear is real world, but I've even seen qualified divers not put the 1st stage on fully and the O ring has popped. Diving is risk management and we work with, or not, with what we have. In the shop the risk management starts in the back room and it goes through the whole process all the way through the diving till the kit is returned and it starts all over again. A simple statement, but the work and supervision and checking that it implies is huge.
deveugle
27-07-2008, 11:33
And?
I don't think (in this case) it was due to failing first stage being an A-clamp rather than a DIN connection or that a DIN connection would have avoided any failure. It was just badly maintained gear and in retrospect I should not have taken it down with me (although I would definitely not put it past me to not have seated the clamp properly given my diving habits - or lack thereof - at the time). Luckily I get to live and learn from my mistakes (actually I only seem to learn from my mistakes :rolleyes: ).
Admittedly I would prefer to dive DIN whenever I have a choice (and my own sets are all DIN) but I have seen plenty of A-clamps doing years of service without issue and if I am handed an A-clamp reg set someplace, I will happily dive it - provided I am happy with the apparent maintenance quality.
P
ChristianG
27-07-2008, 14:40
I don't think (in this case) it was due to failing first stage being an A-clamp rather than a DIN connection or that a DIN connection would have avoided any failure.P
Perhaps not any failure but at least a DIN first stage uses a captured O Ring whereas the A Clamp O Ring is the perfect example of an O Ring that can, and will, extrude.
deveugle
27-07-2008, 15:25
Perhaps not any failure but at least a DIN first stage uses a captured O Ring whereas the A Clamp O Ring is the perfect example of an O Ring that can, and will, extrude.
Quite right.
Peter
I can not argue with the statistics which show fairly catagorically that, in the UK at least, two is the safest grouping.
Then you're clearly not a statistician!
To illustrate the point - there were no incidents involving teams of 47 divers last year? Surely that indicates that 47 is the safest size of team ;) Although the incident reports are very worthwhile for learning about specifics, I don't think enough information is available to fully understand the trends.
I think it's easier to dive in a pair, but if all three people know what they are doing and are practised at diving in a three, then three is safer.
Janos
Then you're clearly not a statistician!Maybe I need to rephrase it. "I will not argue..." I have my own thoughts as to what is an acceptable number of divers...but Brian Cummings has actually analysed the incidents and continues to recommend 2, not 1 or 3.
To illustrate the point - there were no incidents involving teams of 47 divers last year? Surely that indicates that 47 is the safest size of team Surely that would be 22 teams of 2 and one of 3...
Although the incident reports are very worthwhile for learning about specifics, I don't think enough information is available to fully understand the trends.I disagree. I think the incident reports are far more useful for understanding trends than they are for specifics due to the error margin inherent in a voluntary reporting process.
I think it's easier to dive in a pair, but if all three people know what they are doing and are practised at diving in a three, then three is safer.That is speculation on your part. The evidence does not support the assertion. You can argue that the incident reporting process is flawed, but I suspect that if it were indeed safer to dive in a three that is how most people would be diving. In my experience diving techniques are evolutionary in-spite of the preferences of diver training agencies.
To illustrate the point - there were no incidents involving teams of 47 divers last year? Surely that indicates that 47 is the safest size of team
No, it doesn't.
With the enormous quantity of data available involving teams of 47 divers, the variance makes statistically significant tests a little troublesome... :-)
Vic.
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