View Full Version : Hayes & Jarvis - Over priced Offers.
Can somebody please tell me why we are promoting Hayes & Jarvis
when the supposed offers they have on this site are nearly always more expensive than other sources.
Example picked at random.
"*+ Hilton Sharks Bay ALL INCLUSIVE
INCLUDES THREE DAYS BOAT DIVING WITH CAMEL DIVE CLUB
UPGRADE TO 5 DAYS DIVING + ?40. "
Ok lets pick a date from the "offers" site and remember this
includes 10% discount.
14/12 7 nts ?619 + ?40 = ?659
Or how about .....
www.portland-direct.co.uk
11/12 7 nts ?389.00 + ?160 = ?549
18/12 7 nts ?379.00 + ?160 = ?539
Same hotel, same time, still all-inclusive.
Dont know about you but I'd struggle to get past ?160 for a
a 10 dive pack including trips.
That means I save at least ?100+ and I dont even need to be a
BSAC diver!
I can do this for ALL the offers. If I can why can't BSAC or
rather, why can't we open this up to ALL holiday companies!
Tie in with a holiday company yes, but not if they are not competitive. There has to be an advantage.
Any comments?
TerryH
Mike Halligan
21-08-2003, 16:34
Any comments?
Hi, Terry,
Yes, I will comment. From my personal viewpoint, I agree entirely, there is nothing on offer in this operator's range that I would buy. Equally, the BSAC could sign up 20 more operators and we would still go find something more in tune with our wishes.
Price isn't always paramount, things change when you are either
a) arranging trips for others, and seek to transfer the risk to an operator rather than carry it personally or
b) unable/unwilling to make your own arrangements, and seek a supplier of an inclusive tour.
These two circumstances have very specific issues about them, for example -
a) How many times do people let you down over club trips, not paying in time, not turning up, wanting things changed long after they are agreed?
b) I spent many years engaged in close examination of the travelling public. It was often a wonder to me that some of them, Europeans(incl Brits) and Yanks especially, made it to their front gate.
I'm not about to put myself into either scenario, but I have witnessed both. I wouldn't arrange a club foreign trip (believing he travels fastest who travels alone); and I know my way round international travel fairly competently (having worked within it).
The BSAC is IMHO providing a discounted travel opportunity to the membership without cost to itself (ourselves) and I guess it must be a successful business promotion scheme, or Hayes & Jarvis wouldn't do it. The particular offerings don't suit you and I, but that doesn't make the arrangement wrong.
Regards,
Mike
Hmmm, not really MIke.
You see I do actually run and book several foreign trips a
year. They are relativly easy (at least after you have done it
once) and potential problems are taken care of by the travel
company.
The example I quoted was using Portland Direct (part of the
Thompsom/Tui group). I can go on there website right now and
book/pay for the holiday. I have the email address of Camel
and over a dozen other operators in the Red Sea all who are
willing (and very eagar) to take my deposit.
So the holiday element in it's entirity is taken care of by
Portland and the diving elment (again in its entirity) by the
chosen school. I dont see how the fact that Hayes and Jarvis
makes one phone call/email to Camel divers really merits over
an extra ?100!
Of course you are right in that you can look around and
probably find a better deal if you look hard enough, but I
didnt. I used very common holiday companies to make my
comparison, none of which were dearer than H&J.
So what about the tie in with BSAC. Do we benifit financialy?
Probably.
Would we benifit more if there was more competition?
Who knows?
"Snipped"
"The BSAC is IMHO providing a discounted travel opportunity to
the membership without cost to itself (ourselves) and I guess
it must be a successful business promotion scheme, or Hayes &
Jarvis wouldn't do it. The particular offerings don't suit you
and I, but that doesn't make the arrangement wrong."
*Discounted, yes. But a discount of a dear price is NO DISCOUNT.
*Successful for H&J, well yes. If you have an extra ?100 markup
then it doenst take Einstein to work out the extra profit
margins.
*The offerings do actually suit me, as it was the fact that I
had already got a price from another operator that made me
question the H&J prices.
*Is the arrangement wrong? Well, yes. It's providing a service
that is more expensive then a non-discounted operator
and doing it supposedly under the BSAC banner.
That is IMO very wrong as it gives BSAC members the idea that
they are getting a better deal when plainly they are not.
Rgds
TerryH
Bren Tierney
22-08-2003, 14:51
Hi Terry and All,
Gotta say that I thought this very thing the first time I picked up a BSAC/H&J diving brochure. Why on earth has BSAC chosen to partner with someone who is recognised throughout the industry as being ?not at the cheaper end of the market??
The bottom line is that, and I have a number of years business experience of the Travel and Tourism industry behind me when I say this, H&J are not what you might call 'pure dive specialists', it's merely just another 'programme' for them to tag onto their more usual line of Cruise, African Safari, Luxury 5* Hotel, Indian Ocean, etc. very up-market holiday schedules, ergo, not cheap. Not that everyone in necessarily looking for a bottom-dollar deal, but let?s face it, ?last minute? dive holidays, and the prices for which they sell, are a big attraction in diving circles generally, not just BSAC.
Don't believe me about H&J? OK, go into ANY High Street travel agent and ask for their opinion on the most exclusive and up-market tour operators. Nine times out of ten, to a man or woman, they will proffer the H&J range of products along with others in the same field. They are, and have been for years, pitched squarely and openly at the retired, well-heeled/to-do and moneyed amongst us - a profile that might not necessarily fit the 'average' BSAC or other agency diver, I think you'll agree.
By way of illustration, simply read any equipment thread on here or any other diver forum to see how certain divers ask for info and advice on how they can make a home-made CCR unit using everyday household items which currently languish in their garden shed or garage! I jest of course, but you get the picture: if it can be done cheaply (or should that be ?inexpensively?), then it invariably wins friends in the diving community ? and let?s be honest, diving is not the cheapest sport in the world; any expense that can be removed wins popularity.
Even if BSAC members do get a '10% discount' from H&J brochure price, that might mean that it still only brings the price down to somewhere approaching other dive operators, e.g. Regal and others. You have to remember that H&J have a massive global tours operation - and the overheads that go with it to run such a beast. Those overheads have to be clawed-back somehow/where to allow Mr & Mrs Jones (Rtrd.) of Chipping Norton to be afforded their 'Butler Service' in their en-suite chalet whilst on safari in Kruger National Park. And no shame in that holiday offering; the Jones? have earnt it, let them enjoy it. But the knock-on for Joe and Josephine Diver can mean a hike in their holiday cost when all they're after is modest digs and a knock-about in Malta..
FACT: H&J specialise in Luxury holidays - and they make no bones about it either; consequently their prices reflect same. It would make far more sense, IMHO, for BSAC to hook-up with a dedicated dive outfit like Regal (who do nothing else), or similar, who have purely the interests of UK divers at heart (and I'm not saying the H&J diving programme doesn't, just that it cost more for the privilege of taking the same holiday, as in the example above in the opening post).
I have to ask the question, too, just who at BSAC made the decision to hook-up with H&J - as what I've posted above is very much in the public domain and to which, on current evidence, elements of the BSAC membership have cottoned-on? It would be interesting too to see evidence of the number of BSAC divers who actually book with the H&J programme? Is it worth BSAC's while maintaining the link? After all, I can't see any contractual obligations between the two (e.g. do BSAC 'promise' to put 300 divers a year through H&J to maintain the relationship?), other than maybe BSAC's cost in providing its logo for the brochure's cover. It would be even more interesting to see how many ?Group Bookings? get put through the same vendor and how the 'discount' then grows, or if indeed it does?
Why do I ask this?
Basically, it comes down to economies of scale. H&J make a reasonable stab at a diving programme (albeit a perceivably pricey one), or rather, it's 'just another schedule' for them.
Regal, on the other hand (and again I use them only by way of example, I have no vested interest in Regal whatsoever, indeed I usually book my diving holidays with Kuoni - another 'not exactly cheap' outfit), do nothing but diving holidays, to the best of my knowledge, and I'm bound to guess take more 'diver-bums-on-seats' to diving in the far-flung than H&J. Again, take a quick shufty at the tour operator labels adorning the suitcases and dive-bags at Sharm (or any Red Sea) airport and I?m bound to say that ?the usual suspects? (Regal, Golden Joy, Explorers, et al) will be markedly more prolific that H&J.
In doing so, they, Regal, will attract a more favourable 'rack-rate' (contract room rates in hotels) as a base model on which to price the eventual sell-price of their brochure holidays. Simple maths: if you?re buying a greater quantity of something (in this case package holidays for divers), the greater the discount you can command. The greater discount you command, the greater the subsequent discount you can afford to pass on to your intended target market. Yes? That?s one of the key differentiators between a ?package holiday? (a la Regal et al) and a ?tailor-made? holiday, the option of which makes up the bulk of the H&J schedules.
This the kind of comment you were looking for Terry?
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
22-08-2003, 22:26
OK, I?ll have a crack at answering this one although it?s not my area!
Nobody is pretending that H&J are the cheapest, if what you?re after is cheap last minute deals then there are a multitude of web sites offering them. Although I note that some of the portals that reference several sites list H&J deals along with the rest of them.
As for the BSAC?s association with H&J - it costs us NOTHING, in fact just the reverse is true, a small amount of commission comes back in for the benefit of the club overall. (Sorry - some of the figures that you have asked for are commercially sensitive, it would be stupid to disclose them). Basically the association benefits the BSAC, H&J and more to the point our members. There are no onerous contractual obligations on either side, the association suits both of us and benefits the club.
H&J are very well known in the travel industry for the quality of their products, this is something that Bren pointed out. Many of our clubs and members were already using H&J for some of their holidays. So when we are offered a deal that gives our members a 10% discount on something that they were buying anyway AND puts something back into the club - what do you expect us to do? We have tied in with a large and well respected travel company, everybody benefits, where?s the problem?
No matter who we tied in with I can guarantee that if you went through the brochures you would find cheaper operators for some things, destinations in one that weren?t in the other, damn good deals to certain destinations. Nobody is ?best? (does cheapest always mean best?) at everything.
So shop around, nobody is forcing you to use H&J, but if you want to you will get an immediate 10% discount just for being a BSAC member (for your holiday insurance try DiveMaster, members can get some good deals there as well). They wont always be the cheapest, I?ve used H&J/DiveMaster in the past, then on other occasions I haven?t. But on the basis of ?don?t look a gift horse in the mouth? I see nothing wrong with the BSAC tying in with H&J, they might not always be the cheapest but in some circumstances you?ll get a damn good deal just because you are a BSAC member. H&J is just one of a range of optional benefits that we are trying to arrange for our members, please don?t be too hard on us for trying to get benefits for our members AND financially supporting the club as well!
Kind Regards
Keith L
Firstly thanks Bren that's exactly the sort of comment I was
after.
Keith. I can fully appreciate professional colabarations between
BSAC and professional bodies with similar interests. I can also
appreciate that BSAC gains a financial benefit. You dont think
we thought you were doing it for fun!
However, surely the benefit to BSAC also has to be compared with
the benefit to individual members. After all you are in effect
selling the package to members by endorsing and promoting H&J.
You seem to be saying (please correct me if I have
misinterpreted what you say) that H&J provide a superior
service and that of course costs more.
This is factually incorrect. It is not only possible to get
cheaper prices, but those prices are in either EXACTLY the same
accomodation or even better. In some cases (as per my example)
the price difference is well over ?100.
Now true we get a 10% discount, but the savings from other
operators are in many cases up to 30% cheaper, again for the
EXACT same holiday.
You said "Basically the association benefits the BSAC, H&J and
more to the point our members."
I take issue with you over this. I cannot see that BSAC
endorsing a company that is considerably more expensive for the
same product can be of benefit to the members.
Benefit to BSAC via the H&J kickback maybe,
but to benefit members - come on.
Rgds
TerryH
PS: Pity you use Divemster as an example. I have always found
Westfield and Buddy to be cheaper with the same cover.
Bit of a pattern forming here?
Melanopterus
23-08-2003, 11:44
I am not a member so please read no further if this is important to your view of my opinion:
Has not the BSAC had a history of doing deals with the wrong people? Is this not a problem when a club run by well-intentioned amateurs mixes it with those in the commercial world? This is not a criticism, more of a suggestion not to expect too much.
Has not the BSAC had a history of doing deals with the wrong people? Is this not a problem when a club run by well-intentioned amateurs mixes it with those in the commercial world? This is not a criticism, more of a suggestion not to expect too much.
Well yes, but I would have thought we might have learned by
now. Seems to me (PLEASE tell me if I'm wrong) that most of
these colabarations have been done purely through convenience.
So if we use Divemaster for BSAC Insurance, it follows that
we promote them for our members. Sounds good?
Well no. If we did our homework we might find that there are
cheaper alternatives. Unfortunatley that means reseaching and
discussing possibilties with the companies concerned.
That obviously takes more time and effort, but to me these
issues are of greater importance and affect far more of us then
items like Trimix & CCR. How many resources are allocated to
these topics in comparison?
BSAC have the enviable position (to dive related companies) of
having a member database of hard cash spending (it's not a
cheap sport) solvent members. So why don't BSAC capitilise
on this and use there "clout" to negotiate better
discounts/offers?
TerryH
Adrian Kelland
23-08-2003, 17:14
Is this not a problem when a club run by well-intentioned amateurs mixes it with those in the commercial world? This is not a criticism, more of a suggestion not to expect too much.
These 'well-itentioned amateurs' have done a fantastic job to bring the club back from the brink of collapse caused by a so called 'professional'.
Amateur should not be used as a synonym for unskilled/poor/incapable whatever. Don't confuse unpaid with unskilled. Never forget that traffic wardens are paid 'professional', yet the RNLI are unpaid. Which do you think have the greater skills and capabilities.
And every professional is an amateur untill they have practiced.
Rant over.
Adrian
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
23-08-2003, 18:34
:=
:=Has not the BSAC had a history of doing deals with the wrong people? Is this not a problem when a club run by well-intentioned amateurs mixes it with those in the commercial world? This is not a criticism, more of a suggestion not to expect too much.
For "well-intentioned amateurs" read unpaid professionals! The Council (board of directors) of the BSAC has a vast range of very professional commercial management and business skills that any company would be proud of. Oh, by the way, we are also divers...
Well yes, but I would have thought we might have learned by
now. Seems to me (PLEASE tell me if I'm wrong) that most of
these colabarations have been done purely through convenience.
OK - your wrong Terry. A whole host of business propositions come our way, they are all expertly evaluated by people who have experience in the business area concerned. Many are turned down, those that aren't are normally modified, some make it. We're all learning all of the time, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
So if we use Divemaster for BSAC Insurance, it follows that
we promote them for our members. Sounds good?
Well no. If we did our homework we might find that there are
cheaper alternatives. Unfortunatley that means reseaching and
discussing possibilties with the companies concerned.
There isn't a polite way of putting this... Terry, try GETTING a clue! As usual you are TOTALLY wrong and what you are assuming and claiming bears no relationship whatsoever to reality. Months and months of negotiations, investigations and papers went into the DiveMaster deal, your claims are insulting to the people who worked on this and who are STILL working on insurance issues on behalf of our members.
That obviously takes more time and effort, but to me these
issues are of greater importance and affect far more of us then
items like Trimix & CCR. How many resources are allocated to
these topics in comparison?
It's more a case of finding a suitable resource than allocating one. The thought that we could just grab somebody from NDC and say "OK, you're now our insurance expert" is ridiculous. If you want a good mess then try asking the NDO to take over IT, if you wanted a HUGE mess then ask the IT geek to take over as NDO :-) There are many jobs that require doing at many levels within the BSAC, people help us out with their appropriate professional skills applied to the club. That's the way it works, any suggestions for changing it?
BSAC have the enviable position (to dive related companies) of
having a member database of hard cash spending (it's not a
cheap sport) solvent members. So why don't BSAC capitilise
on this and use there "clout" to negotiate better
discounts/offers?
As I have said we are evaluating commercial deals all of the time, that's why for every ?1 we spend running the club only 54p comes from your subscriptions. Our commercial activities benefit all of our members by subsidising the general club activities. That's what running a modern diving club is all about.
If you don't like H&J then fine, use somebody else. But large numbers of our members do use them because they get a good deal. They may not be cheapest (does "best" = "cheapest"?) for all destinations at all times, no one travel company ever is, but just because it doesn't work for you there is no need to deride everything that they or the BSAC tries to do for its members.
Keith L
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
23-08-2003, 18:36
Thanks for that Adrian - appreciated! (and VERY true)
K
Assuming EXACTLY The same holiday as H&J is it possible for me
to find a similar or better price without trying too hard. NOT
a worse or inferior holiday, SAME or BETTER?
Awnser, most definatly YES.
Conclusion: H&J DOES NOT offer the best deal for BSAC members.
Is it possible (again without trying to hard) to find a cheaper
Insurance with the same or better benefit than Divemaster?
Awnser, YES.
Conclusion: Divemaster DOES NOT offer the best deal for BSAC members.
No matter how hard you work at creating commercial ties.
No matter how much "expertise" and resources are thrown at it,
if the result is not competative then what is the point?
By having these companies on the website etc. you are not just
giving them space, but are endorsing them as the preffered BSAC
agent. That immediatly implies to BSAC members that YOU have
done all your homework and that this is the best on offer.
That is plainly factually incorrect.
Now you say it is insulting against all those people who have
put in all the hard work. Sorry, but it is equally insulting
to the rest of us "grunts" who put in as much, if not more
work for BSAC.
I have no beef against H&J as such. They are a good company
offering good holdays. Similarly I have nothing personally
against Divemaster. However I do believe that BSAC members
would benefit more from a non-partisan approach towards
companies in general. Especially if the endorsed company does
not bear up under closer scrutiny.
"If you don't like H&J then fine, use somebody else."
I will. Currently looking at Hilton Sharks Bay Resort (AI).
With Sinai Dive Club and Westfield Insurance. Total saving
on EXACTLY the same package as H&J+Divemaster = ?170.
TerryH
Melanopterus
24-08-2003, 11:56
These 'well-itentioned amateurs' have done a fantastic job to bring the club back from the brink of collapse caused by a so called 'professional'.
Agreed.
But was not that particular problem specifically caused by certain amateurs calling themselves professional in order to draw big salaries rather than real professionals being hired in or, probably in the case of John Coin, finding it impossible to work in that environment?
Giving a preferred status to any supplier indicates an advantageous position to that supplier, which in turn should be reciprocated in some way, in the deal struck.
Good business deals are those where everyone does well.
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
24-08-2003, 19:51
These 'well-intentioned amateurs' have done a fantastic job to bring the club back from the brink of collapse caused by a so called 'professional'.
Agreed.
But was not that particular problem specifically caused by certain amateurs calling themselves professional in order to draw big salaries rather than real professionals being hired in or, probably in the case of John Coin, finding it impossible to work in that environment?
No it wasn?t, you are not even on the same planet let alone close! As you have already stated you are not a member and are obviously not in any way conversant with the actual events all those years ago, it would therefore be appreciated if you would desist from wild rumour and hearsay. Subject closed as far as I?m concerned, it?s OT for this thread and I see no practical purpose in shaking that particular skeleton yet again, I prefer to learn from it and look FOREWARD.
Giving a preferred status to any supplier indicates an advantageous position to that supplier, which in turn should be reciprocated in some way, in the deal struck. Good business deals are those where everyone does well.
Which is exactly what we do. Which is why if you actually look at the accounts you will see an increasing financial contribution to the club being made by such deals, this is helping to keep the subscription down.
I think we?ve just about done this one now, can we get back to the Travel subjects that this forum is meant for please!
Regards
Keith L
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
24-08-2003, 19:52
"If you don't like H&J then fine, use somebody else."
I will. Currently looking at Hilton Sharks Bay Resort (AI).
With Sinai Dive Club and Westfield Insurance. Total saving
on EXACTLY the same package as H&J+Divemaster = ?170.
I think that just about says it all. So when you compare a large, well established and bonded UK tour operator offering worldwide destinations with a local Egyptian company only offering one destination (them!) and two hotels the local specialist operator turns out to be cheaper. Please excuse me if I?m not that surprised.
I am not going to continue this pointless exchange Terry. May I wish you a pleasant and enjoyable break and PLEASE give us a write-up for the Travel Club pages.
Kind Regards
Keith L
Any comments?
1st of all, I would question is it totally identical; where do the flights go from, what airlines do they use etc;
Personally, I don't use package companies as a rule because they are all (ime) more expensive than booking it myself plus the cheaper ones all seem to use charter flights
Dae
:="If you don't like H&J then fine, use somebody else."
:=
:=I will. Currently looking at Hilton Sharks Bay Resort (AI).
:=With Sinai Dive Club and Westfield Insurance. Total saving
:=on EXACTLY the same package as H&J+Divemaster = ?170.
I think that just about says it all. So when you compare a large, well established and bonded UK tour operator offering worldwide destinations with a local Egyptian company only offering one destination (them!) and two hotels the local specialist operator turns out to be cheaper. Please excuse me if I?m not that surprised.
You are so way off base here Keith. Which bit of EXACTLY THE
SAME, dont you understand?
Hayes & Jarvis
Hilton Sharks Bay Resort (All Inclusive).
vs
Portland Direct
Hilton Sharks Bay Resort (All Inclusive).
(Same time of year & same price bands.)
Camel Divers - 10 dive pack.
vs
Sinai Dive Club - 10 dive pack.
(actually based at the hotel)
Divemaster Holiday Insurance
vs
Westfield Holiday Insurance
(your not suggesting that Westfields cover is any worse than
Divemaster are you?)
Total Saving ?170 on H&J.
Portland Direct are part of the Thompsom/Tui group, which makes
H&J look like small fry, so I dont know where you get the local
unbonded operator from!
Every time you endorse a company with the BSAC name YOU have a
responsiblity to ensure that we (as members) are getting as
good a deal as possible.
BSAC gaining financially is of course good, but BSAC gaining
while its members are directly overcharged? How is that going
to benefit members?
Sorry you choose to stick your head in the sand on this one
Keith. Dispite evidence to the contrary you still insist that
the H&J hoidays are better or more exclusive then the rival
operators cheaper ones, when plainly (as per the example) they
are not.
If you refuse to accept hard evidence then how can the debate
continue? Obviously it cannot, which is exactly what you want
anyway.
TerryH
1st of all, I would question is it totally identical; where do the flights go from, what airlines do they use etc;
Personally, I don't use package companies as a rule because they are all (ime) more expensive than booking it myself plus the cheaper ones all seem to use charter flights
Dae
See my post to Keith Dave, but the holidays were as near as
dammit Exactly the same. The Portland one was a day later,
that's all.
I book over half a dozen holidays a year.
As an example, last year I managed to get 36 divers to the same
destination using 3 holiday companies and 4 airports. All
arrived on the same day without any problems. In fact at
Gatwick we had two check-in desks to ourselves!
On top of that I book twin and group holidays to destinations
all over the world using just about every carrier you can
imagine.
Bottom line on all of this is that you have to do your
homework. If I look at a brochure and see a nice looking place,
then I will checkout all possible web reports. German ones are
good as they expect a higer standard and will complain if it's
wrong, so you get a more accurate report.
As you get more into it you see if other operators do the same
hotel and compare prices. This is where I usually find that
company A will offer a better deal then company B or maybe they
are only B&B, but by paying the supplement you get Half-Board
cheaper than the stated Half-Board price from the other
operator. Look at the actual hotel websites, you get a more
accurate idea of the facilities and if in doubt email them
direct and ask!
Of course sometimes it's chartered and sometimes it's
scheduled and you have to make the choice as to "is it worth
it" (excess backage usually makes my mind up)
The fact still remains though that if I can do a little
homework and find out the facts then surely it doesnt take much
effort for BSAC to do the same. After all it's not that I am
asking for the cheapest, but the one that is at least mildly
competative.
And before anybody says it. I dont expect BSAC to check every
H&J holiday. What I expect them to do is look back over each
years contract with H&J and see if they are competative.
Not diificult to find that they are not!
Seems to that this is a case where the end, most certainly
doesnt justify the means.
TerryH
:=
:=1st of all, I would question is it totally identical; where do the flights go from, what airlines do they use etc;
:=
:=Personally, I don't use package companies as a rule because they are all (ime) more expensive than booking it myself plus the cheaper ones all seem to use charter flights
:=
:=Dae
See my post to Keith Dave, but the holidays were as near as
dammit Exactly the same. The Portland one was a day later,
that's all.
I did read your post and I can quite easily believe that it may be more expensive. My point was that you didnt give information such as what airline was being used , scheduled or charter, whether the flights for the cheaper were at unsocial hours , which airport etc , all of which can make a big difference. Given a choice between a 5 am charter flight or a 11 am scheduled service , I would pay extra for the latter for example.
I would avoid package holidays like the plague anyway and just book flights, hotels et al myself and save money over package trips, plus be able to travel on whatever day *I* choose rather than a package company and travel on carriers which I like.
I have booked trips to locations around the globe and do your own work and you save money, however most people are lazy or do not know where to look and the package companies are sitting there ready to sting them.
Now if BSAC could get some discount codes agreed directly with BA to offer a 10% discount, now that would be well worth having.
Dave
Mike Halligan
25-08-2003, 18:34
Terry,
I thought I had a very low opinion of the travelling Brit, born out of years of experience. However, just how easily influenced do you think the average BSAC diver is?
Surely, we buy all manner of goods and services every week, to do with diving and to do with the proper job, family life, etc. I resent your implication that BSAC divers cannot analyse offers on price, content, reputation and sheer prejudice to come up with their own choice.
I agree to disagree with Dave over BA, because my experience of them is the reverse of his. I wouldn't take membership of Thompson/Tui as a positive indicator, for reasons of my own, yet you feel otherwise.
Such is the human condition.
Regards,
Mike
Surely, we buy all manner of goods and services every week, to do with diving and to do with the proper job, family life, etc. I resent your implication that BSAC divers cannot analyse offers on price, content, reputation and sheer prejudice to come up with their own choice.
Come on MIke that just doesnt make sense.
Tell me what is the point of H&J paying commission and giving a
10% discount to BSAC divers unless they gain financialy?
The whole point of an endorsment is that a percentage of
BSAC divers WILL pay simply because BSAC say it's A1.
That is an economic fact regardless of what you or I would do.
One thing that I find very hard to comprehend is the
reluctance to say how much actual dosh we gain as a club.
I would have thought that by being open about these figures we
are more likely to attract other companies who are willing to
pay more.
I agree to disagree with Dave over BA, because my experience of them is the reverse of his. I wouldn't take membership of Thompson/Tui as a positive indicator, for reasons of my own, yet you feel otherwise.
I've never had any problems with Thompson, but the point was made that my comparison was with an unbonded operator. I don't think that you can call Tui unbonded!
Rgds
TerryH
Mark R Sims
29-08-2003, 17:27
I think this is a case where all sides are correct, depending on your target audience.
Those of us that are adept with the travel industry (yes I too have worked in it and still do) will find cheaper deals. Why ? because we are not scared of it and are prepared to research. I have even found H&J to be the cheapest in the past depending on location and general availability. As an example just how many people ask the travel agent to look at the hotel gazetteer they have under the desk ? I do. One of the few places you can learn the truth about the hotel.
From the BSAC point of view though the club needs to be able to recommend, and that is what they are doing as well as getting a discount, a company that is solvent, has the correct bonding, use airlines and hotels that aren't death traps, and staff that can talk to you about the diving and what to expect. Remember that the club is making the recommendation for the majority of members who aren't savy with the travel trade. Across the H&J dive office I have found them to have dived all of their locations, don't think Portland can't offer that. If BSAC just offered the no frills cheapest dive holidays and something went wrong or the diving was no good, we would have members on here slagging off the BSAC team.
I'm glad that they atleast offer something to the membership. Have I ever used the discount scheme? no. Will I ever? who knows, might do depending on my research.
Regards,
Mark Sims
p.s. discount with BA? no chance, you can't even get a few kgs more baggage. You'll have to wait until they get a CEO who dives, and then wants to join the BA special branch (whom I learnt to dive with).
But why H&J?
What's wrong with Regal, Neilson, Kuoni, Oonasdivers and about
another dozen or so specific operators out there?
Are we saying that H&J are the best we can get, or maybe the
most convienient?
I have no doubt that H&J may indeed be good in certain areas,
but does that mean we must exclude other companies just because
BSAC gets a back hander?
BSAC's job/remit (as per any club) is to get the best deal for
it's members. If I can get a better deal without looking too
hard then I question whether we are getting that best deal.
Could it be then that the funds generated are on the back of
the extra fees paid by BSAC to H&J?
Seems to me that we keep getting battered over the head by this
supposed 10% saving. Pity it costs us individually an extra 30%
to get it!
Rgds
TerryH
PS: I use the DG&G Gazetter. Dont need to go to the travel agent, I have them at home.
p.s. discount with BA? no chance, you can't even get a few kgs more baggage. You'll have to wait until they get a CEO who dives, and then wants to join the BA special branch (whom I learnt to dive with).
You must travel with a different BA to me; I have generally no trouble with BA ( except 1 time when I wanted to check in 9 pieces at ORD returning to LHR ). Recently ( as normal )on a trip to LCA, I happily checked in Dive Gear, 15l cylinder, 3l pony et al with no hassles whatsoever ( other than being asked whether the cylinder was empty ). Weights, I took on in my hand luggage
Dave
I don't see your problem with this. Whichever was chosen, there would be people for who it was good and those for which it is not good.
No one is forcing you to use Hayes and Jarvis, but if you do, they will give you a 10% discount on their price.
Dave
I don't see your problem with this. Whichever was chosen, there would be people for who it was good and those for which it is not good.
No one is forcing you to use Hayes and Jarvis, but if you do, they will give you a 10% discount on their price.
Still dont get it do you Dave.
BSAC endorse this company.
We get 10% discount.
Two carrots that scream, dont bother looking elsewhere!
Yet it is possible to find exactly the same holiday.
I'll say that again, EXACTLY the same holiday, for in some
cases up to 30% cheaper.
So BSAC members are paying over the odds and BSAC sancion the
deal. Please explain to me how that "benefits" the members.
TerryH
:=I don't see your problem with this. Whichever was chosen, there would be people for who it was good and those for which it is not good.
:=
:=No one is forcing you to use Hayes and Jarvis, but if you do, they will give you a 10% discount on their price.
:=
Still dont get it do you Dave.
BSAC endorse this company.
We get 10% discount.
Two carrots that scream, dont bother looking elsewhere!
To be honest, if people are stupid enough to take the 1st package holiday brochure and not check elsewhere, then , as far as I am concerned, that is their look out. Just because I can get a discount with a company, I don't just assume that that will be the best
If I get offers of x% off etc, I still check to see whether it is worth having.
Yet it is possible to find exactly the same holiday.
I'll say that again, EXACTLY the same holiday, for in some
cases up to 30% cheaper.
As long as you look around, yes. If you are too lazy to look around then that's your lookout
So BSAC members are paying over the odds and BSAC sancion the
deal. Please explain to me how that "benefits" the members.
In some cases, H&J could be better value than others
Dave
Mark R Sims
30-08-2003, 21:00
You must travel with a different BA to me;
Dave
Its not just BA, it is most scheduled airlines who implement the IATA ruling on luggage rather vigorously. I can assure you that if that plane had been full of passengers as well as carrying some heavy freight, you would have found either a very expensive excess baggage charge or your kit left behind. Unless of course you fly to the states/carribbean where we enjoy a 'piece' allowance. We have had plenty of people on these forums who can testify to large excess bills.
I personally have found BA to have excellent staff 99% of the time, and that is not just because I use to work for them. Even as staff I've come across the 'jobs worths' (and that isn't the ones whom put their foot down when a shirty passenger is trying to get something they are not entitled to, like 40kg of allowance when their ticket says 23K). All airlines have their variations on the staff from hell. It all depends if you are prepared to base your holiday around not meeting one. I prefer not to take that risk but that is your call.
If I remember rightly some years ago one of the BA PR people said, via Diver, that they would test the water at IATA for a golfing style of extra allowance. Never heard another thing on it and I never did see of or hear of any agenda item put forward by the BA industry affairs people on this issue at the IATA Passenger Services Conference. Guess that is PR departments for you. Anybody else ever hear anything ?
"
Its not just BA, it is most scheduled airlines who implement the IATA ruling on luggage rather vigorously. I can assure you that if that plane had been full of passengers as well as carrying some heavy freight, you would have found either a very expensive excess baggage charge or your kit left behind. Unless of course you fly to the states/carribbean where we enjoy a 'piece' allowance. We have had plenty of people on these forums who can testify to large excess bills.
My most recent experiences of note are
115Kg on MS
85Kg on EK
120Kg on QF
90Kg on QF
40Kg on BA to LCA
8 pieces of avg 25Kg LGW-FRA (BA) - SIN - MEL (QF)
4 pieces of 32Kg ORD - LHR
12 pieces CBR-MEL ( was charged AUD 10 for 1 excess piece )
The most hassle I had was with BA LHR one day who wanted to charge me for excess baggage after 55Kg; they relented and allowed the 63Kg in the end
Dave
Mark R Sims
30-08-2003, 22:18
My most recent experiences of note are
115Kg on MS
85Kg on EK
120Kg on QF
90Kg on QF
40Kg on BA to LCA
8 pieces of avg 25Kg LGW-FRA (BA) - SIN - MEL (QF)
4 pieces of 32Kg ORD - LHR
12 pieces CBR-MEL ( was charged AUD 10 for 1 excess piece )
The most hassle I had was with BA LHR one day who wanted to charge me for excess baggage after 55Kg; they relented and allowed the 63Kg in the end
Dave
There is only one answer to that, well done.
What is your secret ?
do you happen to closely resemble the Hugh Grant helpless look at check-in, yet have the physic of Arnie, would make the Sex and the City girls speachless, own every version of ferrari since Enzo build balsa wood models.... I'm definitely missing something!
;-} Mark
Ok look at it this way.
H&J Must benefit from their partnership with BSAC, even when
giving 10% discount and a backhander. Why do it otherwise?
So logic says that there are BSAC members that book purely
on the BSAC reccomendation & the 10% discount.
I'm going to try a little experiment this week and will get
back to you on Thursday.
TerryH
Mike Halligan
31-08-2003, 21:14
H&J Must benefit from their partnership with BSAC, even when
giving 10% discount and a backhander. Why do it otherwise?
For profit. The same motive as drives every other business. Otherwise, they won't be there next time you try to book a holiday, their suppliers will be in big trouble and their staff redundant.
Why this great resentment of anyone failing to pare all to the bone, reduce margins to vanishing point and run their business into incipient insolvency?
Mike
:=H&J Must benefit from their partnership with BSAC, even when
:=giving 10% discount and a backhander. Why do it otherwise?
:=
For profit. The same motive as drives every other business. Otherwise, they won't be there next time you try to book a holiday, their suppliers will be in big trouble and their staff redundant.
Why this great resentment of anyone failing to pare all to the bone, reduce margins to vanishing point and run their business into incipient insolvency?
Well said
Dave
1st of all, I would question is it totally identical; where do the flights go from, what airlines do they use etc;
Hey guess what Dave, bit more info just arrived.
H&J - Hilton Sharks Bay Resort (AI)
From Gatwick on Monarch Airlines.
vs
Portland - Hilton Sharks Bay Resort (AI)
From Gatwick on Monarch Airlines.
Spot the diffrence?
(Apart from the ?180 odd in price that is)
TerryH
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