Layout

[TerryH]

Sorry guys that my only posts are pointing out graphic faus pas, but I'm
buried in taking on just over 50 new BSAC members at the mo so somewhat
busy!

A few points.
The names of the fora list are fixed so that you dont need stacks of white space
to the right. By moving the middle vertical left you create more space for the
next column which has three segments and looks crowded. Even better would be to put time/date in its own column, the space is there.

Same applies to the two number columns on the right. At the mo its 10's of
posts, but go to 3 or 4 figures and its going to get crowded. Besides why are they different sizes?

Other point is that if you have a long forum name (whatever it is) then the
repeat will go into three lines making a very untidy spread.

So wherever a forum title is repeated either make sure the space is big enough or simply keep the title short.

Finally ever heard of margins?????????

Common mistake is to range the lot left and leave no white space.
Just indent it a touch and make it easier to read and not so heavy on the
page. Remember the typographers maxim, whats not on the page is as
important as what is. In other words space.

Same applys to headers. We dont need to worry too much about footers,
but the whole block at the top is squashed up. Bit more space would again
make it more legible.

More?

Way to many links on the toolbar. Pick say 5 main ones and stick the rest
on 3 dropdowns. That should cut the current 13 down to 8. Far less
crowded and again easier on the eye.

Apolgies if this is say a load of stuff and run away, but thats pretty much what I'm doing.

Rgds
TerryH

[Keith Lawrence]

Thanks Terry - all very good points IMHO!

Keith L

[Tristan Green]

I've had a think about this - how about:

Main forums pages have a toolbar with links to:

Home
Forums
Calendars - with a drop-down menu for:
1. BSAC Members Calendar
2. BSAC Coaching & ITS Calendar
3. BSAC Main Events Calendar
Gallery
Links
Search
Quick Actions & Tools - with drop down menu for:
1. "As it is" plus:
2. FAQ
3. Register
4. Members List
Logout

[That's 8 buttons across the top]

And the home page could have toolbar links to:

Home
Register
FAQ
Gallery
Links
Members List
Search
Logout

by coincidence that's also 8 buttons.

Note that there are already links to the forums and calendars in the menu to the left of the home page screen so anything in here doesn't need to be duplicated in the toolbar at the top.

Or something like that.

Cheers,
Tristan

[Adrian Kelland]

I've had a think about this - how about:

Main forums pages have a toolbar with links to:

Home
Forums
Calendars - with a drop-down menu for:
1. BSAC Members Calendar
2. BSAC Coaching & ITS Calendar
3. BSAC Main Events Calendar
Gallery
Links
Search
Quick Actions & Tools - with drop down menu for:
1. "As it is" plus:
2. FAQ
3. Register
4. Members List
Logout

[That's 8 buttons across the top]

And the home page could have toolbar links to:

Home
Register
FAQ
Gallery
Links
Members List
Search
Logout

by coincidence that's also 8 buttons.

Note that there are already links to the forums and calendars in the menu to the left of the home page screen so anything in here doesn't need to be duplicated in the toolbar at the top.

Or something like that.

Cheers,
Tristan
I like that Tristan.

Now to find some time to give it a try. :(

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence]

I've had a think about this - how about:


ARRRGGGGG!!! :eek: I'm just doing some work on the damn thing!

Like the ideas Tristan, might be a bit of a s*d to code though, I also saw you post down on 'Calendars'. Did you notice that you get a different toolbar when you're not logged in - have a look at that one as well.

You're getting a new navbar (that's the template name) soon anyway, if I can't get the changes in straight away we'll hold those for a "Phase III" navbar change, but after the comments we will change it.

Keith L

[Tristan Green]

ARRRGGGGG!!! :eek: I'm just doing some work on the damn thing!

Got to make sure you aren't slacking off just 'cos it's Friday :D


Did you notice that you get a different toolbar when you're not logged in - have a look at that one as well.

Don't you learn? :p If I start looking at that one then you'll have even more stuff on your to-do list.

... might be a bit of a s*d to code though

As I've said before - that's for you 'puter literate types to worry about. We just want it to look nice!

Cheers,
Tristan

[Adrian Kelland]

ARRRGGGGG!!! :eek: I'm just doing some work on the damn thing!

Like the ideas Tristan, might be a bit of a s*d to code though, I also saw you post down on 'Calendars'. Did you notice that you get a different toolbar when you're not logged in - have a look at that one as well.

You're getting a new navbar (that's the template name) soon anyway, if I can't get the changes in straight away we'll hold those for a "Phase III" navbar change, but after the comments we will change it.

Keith L

I've done menu additions before, just need to find some time Keith.

Adrian

[Tristan Green]

Did you notice that you get a different toolbar when you're not logged in - have a look at that one as well.


Okay, I've logged out and back in again (all for the sake of a better product).

The "guest" navbar looks fine - it doesn't have so many buttons as the "member" navbar anyway and looks cleaner. Leave it alone.

Look at all the work I've just saved you :D

Cheers,
Tristan

[MattS]

I don't know what Keith's been up to but I now have a confusing 13 buttons on the menu under the header. The thread title/navigation is squeezed into a postage stamp next to the BSAC logo.

I agree that the number of buttons needs to come down, TGs idea sounds fine. The thread title wants to be under the header and buttons with the full horizontal width of the page available so that it appears as a title for the thread.

I would suggest that we do not have to overuse the word BSAC in titles, links and buttons. BSAC is inferred within the context of the site. It says BSAC at the top of my browser, I have a logo in the page header - whom else's Calander / Training scheme / Instructors / Schools am I looking at here?

[Keith Lawrence]

I don't know what Keith's been up to but I now have a confusing 13 buttons on the menu under the header. The thread title/navigation is squeezed into a postage stamp next to the BSAC logo.


Ooops! I seem to have been in FUBAR mode when I did that one :o OK, I'l make a very simple change to put the banner right at the top (out of the navbar) and then get my sticky bloody fingers out of it, this type of thing really needs to be left to somebody with a clue.

K

[Adrian Kelland]

I don't know what Keith's been up to but I now have a confusing 13 buttons on the menu under the header. The thread title/navigation is squeezed into a postage stamp next to the BSAC logo.

I agree that the number of buttons needs to come down, TGs idea sounds fine. The thread title wants to be under the header and buttons with the full horizontal width of the page available so that it appears as a title for the thread.

I would suggest that we do not have to overuse the word BSAC in titles, links and buttons. BSAC is inferred within the context of the site. It says BSAC at the top of my browser, I have a logo in the page header - whom else's Calander / Training scheme / Instructors / Schools am I looking at here?

I am having a play with the navbar options, see under '.... AJK' style. I have modified to have a loged in and logged out bars. Only logged in get search and the like. IIRC search can maul the server on a large forum, lets keep such tools to registered users.

[Keith Lawrence]

I've put an emergency change in to the master to move the banner out and into the header, Adrian knows, his version will bin the banner from the navbar.

K

[Tristan Green]

Keith,

I have sent you an idea for the header layout by e-mail.

Basically removing the "tree" and putting the ad banner there instead and moving the time to below the login information.

Too hard to really explain without a picture - if it works maybe you could load it as an option and we could see what it looks like.

Cheers,
Tristan

[Keith Lawrence]

I am having a play with the navbar options, see under '.... AJK' style.

Better than my efforts! All yours Adrian, knock out that extra <br/> that I put right at the top of the navbar for when we didn't have a header.

[Adrian Kelland]

Right, I'm going to leave my stlye as it is for a bit, and see what comment we get.

One thing, members in the context of the forum means registered users, not BSAC members. a Guest is a user not logged in.

Keith - for the record, only the Navbar template is modified, everything else is inherited.

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence]

Right, I'm going to leave my stlye as it is for a bit, and see what comment we get.

THAT'S better! All : You can see Adrian's new style by selecting it bottom left or via http://new.bsacforum.co.uk/?styleid=10

My Comments :

Calendar drop-down isn't working correctly, it always shows the first 'Members' calendar. But I know that area is bloody difficult, we may have to finalise the calendars and then hard-code it.

Maybe put the 'Forums', 'Links' and 'Gallery' onto a drop-down? I worry a little about not having an instant jump to the FAQ and User CP, those are two things people use quite frequently, if you hide them they wont find them. But that's just my view, what do others think?

Thanks Adrian

Keith L

[Tristan Green]

Looks better - but bug9er me what's he done with the logout button??????

That's the only one I need right now.

Bye,
Tristan

[Adrian Kelland]

Looks better - but bug9er me what's he done with the logout button??????

That's the only one I need right now.

Bye,
Tristan
Quick menu.

Why logout? :)

[Tristan Green]

Quick menu.

Why logout? :)
So I can log in again when I get home!

Can I be logged in from two different IP addresses at the same time? If so, then what the heck does that do to the cookies?

Can you pull the logout button back out from the drop down menu and have it on its own again? Pretty please :p

Cheers,
Tristan

[Keith Lawrence]

So I can log in again when I get home!

Can I be logged in from two different IP addresses at the same time? If so, then what the heck does that do to the cookies?

Can you pull the logout button back out from the drop down menu and have it on its own again? Pretty please :p


The system doesn't "know" about you as such Tristan, it keeps a "oh, he's around" note for about 30 mins then it forgets you. IP addresses should not come into it, cookies are of course machine local. I will be very surprised if it gives you problems, let me know if it does, I'll look into it. I'll actually try it sometime by logging in on two machines at once.

But I'd like the 'Log Out' back as well, when you're testing I often need to log out and back in again under different ID's.

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence]

UPDATE : This is me at home in Stansted in Essex.

Hang on a minute.... patter, patter, patter, patter....

[Keith Lawrence]

...patter, patter, patter, patter... DEEP breath...

This is me in the server room at BSAC HQ in Ellesmere Port Cheshire.

It works OK Tristan!!!

Keith L

[Adrian Kelland]

I've put 'log out' back on the main menu, also left it on quick actions.

Personally I never log out where ever I am - multiple machines has never been a problem.

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence]

...patter, patter, patter

Sorry for the delay, bit of a hold up on the M6 and I think I may have tripped a few speed cameras there! Yup, two different machines, two different locations, two different IP addresses. I've also used the same machine from different IP's on my laptop.

So you shoud NOT be seeing any problems.

HTH

Keith L

[Tristan Green]

Ok guys,

I feel defeated :( - it's a veritable can of worms time - Other than to change users on the same machine what's the point in logging out then?

How about your new posts page - does the server "know" if you've read them or is it stored in your computer cookies?

As usual I have more questions than answers. I will now be logging off from home and going to the pub :D Goodnight.

Cheers,
Tristan

[MattS]

Adrian, it looks a lot better

Minor tweak suggestions
1. Can the nav bar be moved below the menu/toolbar? It would make more sense to have the contextual navigation below the global navigation.

2. If we are having the banner above the header, it might make sense to move the Poseidon logo out of the header. The banner looks a bit tacked on at the moment. Alternatively increase the whitespace between the logo and the header text.

3. Are transparent gifs supported. I can see the background colour of the Poseidon logo and it looks a little amatuerish.

Regards
Matt

[Adrian Kelland]

Adrian, it looks a lot better

Minor tweak suggestions
1. Can the nav bar be moved below the menu/toolbar? It would make more sense to have the contextual navigation below the global navigation.
Sorry Matt, not sure what you mean. Could you knock up a picture?

2. If we are having the banner above the header, it might make sense to move the Poseidon logo out of the header. The banner looks a bit tacked on at the moment. Alternatively increase the whitespace between the logo and the header text.
If this is done, ol Neptune could be made a little larger.

3. Are transparent gifs supported. I can see the background colour of the Poseidon logo and it looks a little amatuerish.

Regards
Matt
I think the logo background colour may be one of the two alternating colours that may be used in alternating cells/rows. Not quite sure...

I have changed the calendar menu to show real calendars now, but will wait for any more comments before any more major tweaking.

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence]

1. Can the nav bar be moved below the menu/toolbar? It would make more sense to have the contextual navigation below the global navigation.


? I'm a bit confused by what you mean there as well :) The navbar (in vB terms) is the box at the top containing what are called the breadcrumbs (the white bit with Welcome and where you are) and the darker blue bit which is the buttons bar. Do you mean put the blue buttons above the white breadcrumbs?

2. If we are having the banner above the header, it might make sense to move the Poseidon logo out of the header. The banner looks a bit tacked on at the moment. Alternatively increase the whitespace between the logo and the header text.

3. Are transparent gifs supported. I can see the background colour of the Poseidon logo and it looks a little amatuerish.


Yeah, it's not right. My fault, originally Neptune was up there but I moved it because we didn't have a header! The banner is wrong stuck where it is on its own, what we need IMHO is a nice BSAC Forums logo top left, with Neptune, then the advertising banner to the right of that.

I've got to sort out the banner stuff, havng a few geek type problems there, when I'm next working on it I'll put Neptune up there for now and Adrian can bin him from the navbar.

I'm with Adrian on this, let's wait for comments.

Keith L

[MattS]

http://www.mssystems.co.uk/images/bshdr1.jpg

[Adrian Kelland]

A bit more of a play. As a result of Matt's suggestion, I have move the logo from the Navbar back to header and made it a bit bigger. Not the logo as per admin settings - hard coded for the moment.

[Keith Lawrence]

I must admit that I prefer Matt's suggestion , it fits in better with the blue-to-white transition of all the other windows IMHO. Very minor change to the header in your style Adrian - I've cut neptune down to a 60 pixel height (same as the banner) and uploaded it to the filestore. img tag modified accordingly. I've just cracked (I hope!) the banner serving problem over on the test system. Once that is live I'll put the instructions on the admin forums and then leave the styles to those who, unlike me, have a clue :)

Personal view on the links button bar : I like the much shorter bar with the dropdowns, it's just down to what we have in main and what we have in dropdowns.

1. The ancillaries of Gallery and Links don't need to be main, they are not essential and people will find them eventually. So turn 'Forums' into a 'Map' or whatever dropdown and move Forums, Gallery and links into there. Result : -2 buttons).

2. User CP and FAQ I do consider essential. User CP I want people to see straight away so they browse around there and set it up ratherthan keep asking us. FAQ is also essential, or when we say "read the FAQ" people will say "where?". So put User CP and FAQ back as a top level link. Result : + 2 buttons.

Overall Result : As it looks now.

All IMHO of course.

Keith L

[Tristan Green]

Hi,

The new navbar looks a lot better (BSAC MasterStyle AJK). :) When will you change it to the default master style?

1. The BSAC logo in the top left links to the BSAC members's section webpage - but the mouse over pop-up title (probably not the right name but you'll know what I mean) says "BSAC Forums". Can you change this title? Also, is it worth indenting this logo to line up with the rest of the stuff? as it looks a bit odd sticking out to the left of the rest of the stuff on the screen.

2. The background to the navbar lower box is back to white again - can this be set to the pale blue tint like the rest of the boxes.

It's only tinkering I know but the whole site looks a lot better now than when we started. (There goes your final chance of a career change to design and art work, Keith :D )

Cheers,
Tristan

[Adrian Kelland]

I think our logo is not quite prominent enough - look a little lost - IMVHO too :)

I've made the drop down changes as suggested Keith, but don't have a clue what to call the 'Section' one :) Answers on a postage stamp...

Adrian

[Adrian Kelland]

Hi,

The new navbar looks a lot better (BSAC MasterStyle AJK). :) When will you change it to the default master style?

1. The BSAC logo in the top left links to the BSAC members's section webpage - but the mouse over pop-up title (probably not the right name but you'll know what I mean) says "BSAC Forums". Can you change this title? Also, is it worth indenting this logo to line up with the rest of the stuff? as it looks a bit odd sticking out to the left of the rest of the stuff on the screen.
Done. Thanks for spotting that.

2. The background to the navbar lower box is back to white again - can this be set to the pale blue tint like the rest of the boxes.

It's only tinkering I know but the whole site looks a lot better now than when we started. (There goes your final chance of a career change to design and art work, Keith :D )

Cheers,
Tristan
I have changed the colour to the same used for the darker of the two used for each post.

[Tristan Green]

Much more pleasing to the eye now.

I agree that the BSAC logo is a bit small and looks like an add on with that big gap between it and the advert banner.

Probably causing more trouble - but could you slip the BSAC logo back back down the page to the same level as the navbar - it looks like it's the same height and now we've trimmed the number of buttons down it may not look so cramped.

Few more thoughts:
What about renaming "Quick Actions" to "Tools" and removing the following items from the drop down menu as they are now duplicated on the navbar:

User Control Panel
Edit Signature
Edit Profile
Edit Options
FAQ
Log Out

I like your "Where's that to?" button but how about "Take me to ..." or How do I find?" as a title?

Cheers,
Tristan

[Adrian Kelland]

I'm going to merge this with the main thread.

[Tristan Green]

I'm going to merge this with the main thread.

Makes sense.

Just noticed that the original thread name "Layout" has been replaced by the new thread that I started "Two quick points." Is this down to moderator preference? It might be best to use the original title of the first thread to be posted when merging threads - otherwise TerryH (and others) may be wondering how he started this thread and where his original thread has gone.

Cheers,
Tristan

[Adrian Kelland]

Makes sense.

Just noticed that the original thread name "Layout" has been replaced by the new thread that I started "Two quick points." Is this down to moderator preference? It might be best to use the original title of the first thread to be posted when merging threads - otherwise TerryH (and others) may be wondering how he started this thread and where his original thread has gone.

Cheers,
Tristan
Renamed. It is to do with which thread is picked first for merging, I picked your new one Tristan.

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence]

I agree that the BSAC logo is a bit small and looks like an add on with that big gap between it and the advert banner.

Probably causing more trouble - but could you slip the BSAC logo back back down the page to the same level as the navbar - it looks like it's the same height and now we've trimmed the number of buttons down it may not look so cramped.


The main banner heading is work-in-progress Tristan, the Neptune that's there now is just a holding image to establish the principle. Ignore that bit for now, we know it's cr*p, Adrian's stuff is far more important.

A question for everybody : WHERE do you want the date and time displayed? On the vB default it takes a whole line at the bottom of each page, the current master has it up in the navbar, this style doesn't have it anywhere.

Keith L

p.s. Thanks for testing the automatic user title promotion Tristan, you've just reached 50 posts and are now an Established Forum Member :) As a BSAC member you can actaully set any title you want (with reason!) via your User CP.

[Tristan Green]

The main banner heading is work-in-progress Tristan, the Neptune that's there now is just a holding image to establish the principle. Ignore that bit for now, we know it's cr*p.

OK - I'm ignoring it :D

A question for everybody : WHERE do you want the date and time displayed?

I don't want it displayed! Why do I need another clock on my screen - it's already there in my Windows/OSX toolbar and I've got a watch on my wrist and another one on my phone on my desk and it's on my mobile phone in my pocket. Am I so desperate to keep track of my time that I need reminding when I'm looking at the BSAC forums? Probably not.

p.s. Thanks for testing the automatic user title promotion Tristan, you've just reached 50 posts and are now an Established Forum Member :)

Always a pleasure to find your faults! Now I'll have to find something else that you don't know is broken.

Cheers,
Tristan