decompression models and bsac being ageist

[peterpan]

....

[Nigel Hewitt]

Well it could stimulate a debate on English teaching is schools as I've read it three times and I still haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Are you complaining about BSAC-88s, regarded as wildly optimistic in some circles? Making a lot of modern models look hugely conservative.

Maybe you don't like the UKSDM procedures which I always thought of as pretty enlightened?

Maybe you are thinking we should be getting more kids into diving? Bad news. Only us oldies can afford it.

Of course we reject new ideas. Well, I'm struggling to think of a good one we rejected recently but I'm sure we do.

[Vic]

it seems to me from lectures and other sources that there are two separate directions in which these models are going. while there must be a fine point at which consensus can be reached ie the ability of a human body to tolerate changes in pressure.

There's an old saying - "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

You ought to know that there is *loads* more theory than you'll have been exposed to so far. There are at least 4 different types of model (arguably 5 if you see Wienke's work as entirely different from Yount's), and at least one set of tables that doen't use any underlying gas model (relying solely on statistical incident methods).

So making assumptions about convergenece between all these different systems - or even that such a convergence might be possible - is not actually setting you off in the best possible light...

[Snip the next bit - it looks like you're saying we're sandbagging, but I can't be sure because you haven't actually written a comprehensible sentence. Any sandbagging that does occur is well-documented, except in the case of the Aladin temperature "correction"]

age health while as divers we readily realise these as limitations when it comes to membership and insurance they are not at all taken into account when it comes to pushing 'guidelines'.

Eh?

health in particular the closed attitude in terms of bsac when it comes to medication is probably more of a hindrance than help for the diving community

Well, if you're going to throw around allegations like that, you're going to have to provide some sort of substantiation.

BSAC's attitude to medication is simple - we abide by what the UKSDMC tells us. The UKSDMC is populated by trained medical professionals with a special interest in hyperbaric medicine. Perhaps you'd like to explain to us why your opinion trumps theirs...

diving in the uk (or at least in bsac) at the moment is too concerned with the older membership

Well, as one rapidly heading towards being part of that "older membership", I'd actually say the exact opposite; we spend too much time and attention is recruiting younger members to the detriment of the old-timers. The result is a membership churn which means you lose the experience upon which the club is based. So tell me why your opinion should trump mine...

that the sport and bsac clubs are dependant on for funding and not the opening of the sport up to newer and younger members

Ok - here's a nasty little fact for you.

Clubs need funding.

If you can find a way to fund a club without extracting that money from its members, and without ties that would prevent us working effectively, feel free to sing out...

(PADI seems to be able to do it but they may have gone too far)

PADI (as an organisation) is not a dive club.

while i have may have overstepped the mark i am trying to stimulate debate and i will clarify any point i have made!

You'll have more luck "stimulating debate" if you'd learn to write coherently - particularly in the light of posts like this one (http://bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=75640&postcount=1).

is bsac too old?

55 this year. I don't think tat's too old.

too conservative?

No.

too closed to new ideas?

No.

and new members?

No.

Vic.

[MattS]

it seems to me from lectures and other sources that there are two separate directions in which these models are going. while there must be a fine point at which consensus can be reached ie the ability of a human body to tolerate changes in pressure.Before continuing, I would like to suggest that if you are going to raise a contentious subject you take the time to fill in your user profile to provide some idea of relevant experience so I and other readers have a clue as to who we are dealing with. By all means have a look at my profile for an example.

The ability of the human body to tolerate change in pressure is not really a point of debate. It is a fact that it can tolerate vast changes in pressure. Despite the marketing claims and diver obsession with the minutia of decompression models, the differences within the various decompression algorithms make so little difference to overall DCI incidence as to be unmeasurable.

There are two common decompression strategies at present.
1. The traditional ascend as far as possible as fast as possible. This strategy has the backing of 100 years of formal scientific research. Much of this research was funded by military and commercial diving operators who are interested in profiles and risk factors which are significantly different to those of Sport Divers. Unfortunately since around the 1980s commercial and military diving has not progressed in the same way as Sport Diving. There is little funding available for decompression research and what is available tends to get spent exploring profiles which are detached from Sport Diving.

2. The ascend slowly, stop more frequently, stop longer - so called deep stop strategies and bubble models. This strategy has been born more from necessity than science. Commonly people are familiar with Technical Divers operating at the extremes of Sport Diving adopting it in the 90s. Historically it seems native divers in some isolated places were using the strategy as long as 50 years ago, again having learnt the hard way that it appeared to reduce the risk of DCI subsequent to the specific profiles they were undertaking. There is a growing consensus amongst the better informed elements within Sport Diving that this approach works but there is little scientific research to support it and a glut of hypothesis which attempts to explain it. Ad-hoc experimentation within Technical Diving circles indicates whatever is going on is most likely an additional bit of the jigsaw rather than a radical departure from the more traditional dissolved gas strategy.

Beyond these two basic strategies the difference is all minutia - often mere pseudo-science driven by marketing designed to differentiate one seller's wares from another.

On one hand the insurance industry must be forcing computer manufactures to go for more conservative models so as to expose those users to a lesser degree of risk,It has little to do with risk, and much more to do with liability. Limiting liability being the art of passing the buck. The art of diving is to avoid having a buck to pass in the first place. I propose the best way to go about that is to be competent, informed and somewhat conservative in ones view of ones own ability.

while on the other hand those developing newer models can bring us closer to that fine line (indeed it does expose us to a higher risk) but such is human nature one does not partake in an activity to limit the possibilities of others,The line you speak of here is in reality a very broad and fuzzy one. It changes on an individual basis and hour to hour. A decompression computer and the underlying model it uses does not expose you to risk. You do that yourself by not taking the trouble to understand how the computer is working and how it applies to you and the diving you do. The computer can not tell you to drink more water, go to bed earlier, eat breakfast, pay for Nitrox, brush up your skills....etc etc. You have to do these things yourself and they make far greater difference to overall DCI risk than any brand of computer or table can. As far as the statistics are concerned you should follow 'A' decompression model, but they provide little clue as to which one might be the best for you as an individual.

taking into account issues such as heartbeat is perhaps only the beginning? age health while as divers we readily realise these as limitations when it comes to membership and insurance they are not at all taken into account when it comes to pushing 'guidelines'.As humans we find it attractive to blame things we do not understand and to avoid admitting our own failings. The vast, vast majority of DCI cases are contributed to by very basic failures of technique. If only half the anecdote surrounding the headlines is only half true, it seems even some of the unearned bends could well have been well and truly earned.

Interestingly I happen to know quite a few divers over the age of 60 and quite number of people that have seen the insides of helicopters and recompression chambers as a result of diving incidents. It is remarkable then that I do not know anyone over 60 that has been recompressed. If anything it is the younger age groups that appear to need the advice concerning pushing guidelines. Guidelines are exactly that. What we are actually dealing with are personal limits and my experience is that the older generation are far better at judging their own.

health in particular the closed attitude in terms of bsac when it comes to medication is probably more of a hindrance than help for the diving communityYou are accusing the wrong suspect. BSAC merely implement the guidance of the UK Sport Diving Medical Council (UKSDMC) - an expert body independent of BSAC. What the UKSDMC have on their side is that they are one of very few independent bodies that is not in some way or other funded by the diving industry. You might not like what the UKSDMC has to say, but I put it to you that they are qualified to have an opinion and gain little by expressing it.

diving in the uk (or at least in bsac) at the moment is too concerned with the older membership that the sport and bsac clubs are dependant on for funding and not the opening of the sport up to newer and younger members (PADI seems to be able to do it but they may have gone too far)My take is rather different. BSAC are primarily an organisation which facilitates amateur diving clubs within which the people that fund BSAC gather together for the purposes of regularly going diving in and around the UK.

The lack of interest in BSAC from children and teenagers seems more to do with a lack of interest on the part of those children, teenagers and their parents to diving regularly in and around the UK. The lack of interest from the 20 somethings seems to be in-line with the lack of disposable income generally experienced within that age group and the current fashion for a lifestyle which is not compatible with UK diving - refraining from alcohol at weekends, getting up early, commitment...that sort of thing. By way of University diving clubs, BSAC do indeed encourage vast numbers of 20 somethings to have a go at diving as a pastime, rather than as an isolated experience.

Vast swathes of 30 somethings have vast proportions of their income devoted to buying, or trying to buy a house. The UK is a little unusual in this respect in so far as renting decent accommodation is relatively expensive and relatively less common within this age group than in other parts of Europe and the World. I understand raising children is an ever more expensive preoccupation too.

while i have may have overstepped the mark i am trying to stimulate debate and i will clarify any point i have made!Let me be frank. I am struggling to connect your argument with your proposition. I am sure you know what you mean but there is no clear progression from your argument to your proposal.

so
is bsac too old?BSAC is represented at all ages - largely thanks to snorkeling and University clubs. It is better represented by that age group in the UK which is likely to have sufficient disposable income to withstand the relatively high UK cost of living in combination with the cost of diving as a pastime.

too conservative?Don't you think a degree of conservatism is a good thing for divers operating in some of the World's harshest diving conditions?
too closed to new ideas? and new members?No actually I think UK divers themselves are too closed to BSAC. The perception of BSAC amongst elements influential within UK diving is based on BSAC as it was 10 to 15 years ago. It suits those with a vested interest in making money to discourage interest in amateur clubs that have no such interest and so perpetuate the myth and legend. Those leading BSAC have spent the last 10 years opening it up.

In a very general sense BSAC can be what the members that choose to join and form branches wish to make it. There is not much to prevent a club operating in an open and progressive fashion and it becomes easier year on year. If some of these diving clubs wish to be closed and conservative and their members choose not to change them, there is little BSAC can do to force them to. They could throw them out, but that is not exactly facilitating amateur dive clubs, which is what they are being paid to do by their members - including those in closed and stagnant branches.

Now if you had a specific gripe I might find something to agree with, but your more general gripes do not seem to have much baring on the reality of the situation.

[Chris Cherrington]

Well it could stimulate a debate on English teaching is schools as I've read it three times and I still haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
....

Yes. I gave up half way through as well Nigel.

Chris

[Tristan Green]

while i have may have overstepped the mark i am trying to stimulate debate and i will clarify any point i have made!

so
is bsac too old?
too conservative?
too closed to new ideas? and new members?
I couldn't understand what exact point(s) you are trying to make in the main body of your post, but here are my short answers:

How young would you like a club from the 1950's to be?

As opposed to say too aggressive?

We're always open to new ideas they just don't happen overnight (eg. entry level nitrox) in an organisation run by committee.

We're always open to new members. Who exactly are we accused of being closed towards?

You'll have more luck "stimulating debate" if you'd learn to write coherently - particularly in the light of posts like this one (http://bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=75640&postcount=1).
Touche, sir!

Cheers,
Tristan

[Janos]

I think because divers are generally diving longer and deeper, then they would have done in the past. Also it wouldn't surprise me if there are more old divers out there.

Janos

[peterpan]

apologies was three sheets to the wind when original post was written so i've removed it

pp